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Vanguard/Powertech Rebalancing?


KenseiMahou

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How geared are you and do you have a lot of surge rating? Big thing is that it's pretty much impossible to get it unless you are well geared for big crits. You really, should be able to get that medal from just being specced for burst damage in my opinion like you can with an shadow/assassin and a scoundrel/operative.

 

She just hit 55 so she's still in her min-maxed War Hero. All power/surge. Plus I'm playing a soft hybrid that takes all the small stat boosts in the lower ranks.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMZfhrbdorcc.3

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I don't get it, what are all the complaints about Powertechs/Vanguards being worthless in 2.0 based off? I have checked patch notes everywhere and I do not see any nerfs for the classes, so why are people claiming that they're worthless? Edited by Chaos_Distortion
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I don't get it, what are all the complaints about Powertechs/Vanguards being worthless in 2.0 based off? I have checked patch notes everywhere and I do not see any nerfs for the classes, so why are people claiming that they're worthless?

 

Roughly for the pyro tree, without any decent explanation given from the guy in charge of class balance:

 

-Reduction of armor penetration of HIB/RS by 15%

- CGC/PC dmg cut by around 50% but increased tthe chance to proc (which was never needed)

- TD/AP dmg divided in 2 part, 1 upfront (hit slightly harder than the basic aoe grenade) and 1 dot, useless as a burst tool now (this is by far one of the lamest "ultimate" cast in all the AC trees).

- Energy rebounder (the talent that reduced the CD from the shield) moved from pyro tree to tactic/proto tree.

- kolto overload doesnt heal above 30% health meaning that it leaves the PT in execution move's range

 

+

 

Incendiary missile (whatever the name is for VG), the other cast from the pyro tree, is pretty underpowered especially when compared to Sniper's corrosive grenade. It can be resumed like this: High cost (1/4 of the energy pool), low range (10m), single target, below average damage, no real synergy with the pyro tree.

 

In effect, the pyro tree has no real burst and no survivability and it is mainly a mid-range/melee class. Compare that with how high the other classes hit now and how big their HP are and you will see how nerfed this class is.

 

Pyro make their dmg on the charts mainly by applying their dots via aoe, hardly useful.

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I just came back to game after couple months out decided id check out pt hadnt played for awile and all I can say is wow. It has been messed up damage was the only real survivability the pt/vg had. The crappy shield doesnt hrlp much compared to other dps classes and the kolto overload change makes survivabilty on pts non existant. I decided to level merc to see if there any better and boy are they. Only lvl 45 and feel I have higher survivabilty without healing than my pt.

 

The iron is sorcs got dps buff (needed). And there lvl 51 ability is a new def cooldown to go with there other ones while the one dps ac that needed a new defensive cd gets damage nerf and no defensive skill to counter it.

 

People complained bout pt damage for so long and never stopped to think why it was the way it was. And thats coz as pyro you have very little survivabilty and being able to burst as much as we did was only way you had a chance to survive.

 

Now at least in my opinion sorcs can survive better than pts so can mercs. And if its true that many guilds avoid taking pts and vgs to ops and I would assume ranked pvp then it shows how bad they nerfed powertechs dps. they need to get more than one guy on balancing and to stop just scrolling through acs making one op for a time then nerfing. If they balanced properly and did it with proper tests and LISTENED to feedback they would get honest feedback on how to balance classes to a level everyone can agree is about right or at keast acceptable

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There are quite a few broken specs.

Pyrotech is fun but mediocre for Mercs as well. Arsenal is strong but can be a pain some times when you get unlucky procs and crits - you still deal OK damage but the gameply goes down the toilet.

Sorcerers pretty much only have one choice for dealing damage.

Powertechs have hybrid spec to be competitive but both pure specs are below average.

Assassins are more than too far behind, even though there might be a hand ful that are good enough for NiM, they're no where close to the top.

Juggernaut actually seems fine with one single target focused spec and one for AoE.

 

And then of course the old song about the two classes that stand out into the other direction:

Every single spec of those two culprits is simply superior to anything another class can offer in the same field and there are unique utility skills thrown in on top of that.

 

By the time 2.3 hits with still no class balance in sight I'll be using my L55 Sniper as my main from there on out.

I owe it to my guild since playing anything but the best does not necessarily impair but most certainly not help progression and I owe it to myself since me playing both classes takes equal effort and time with different performance, which is simply bad balance ... as in no balance.

Seems to be like 'Favorite of the Year Mages' all over again with no indication to move things towards a balanced environment amongs damage dealing specs.

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I cant speak for pve but at least in pvp sins seem quite powerful. Specially now they got that port skill and seemed like they got damage buff in 2.0 as they seem to burn you fairly quickly with opener skill that does like 7-8k damage.

 

I just dont think the dev in charge of balancing has a clue wot he is doing cos every time we get class changes more problems arise than ones being solved. When a class is out performing the others he simply just nerfs it to the ground then buffs another class thants underperforming without much attention to the class being nerfed and wot it actually needed. Pt nerfs were way over top but well we all no nerfs in this game are not decifed by devs but pvp community who scream nerf until devs listen. Do snipers need a nerf???? Not in my opinion they just beed to buff other dps specs to match if thar aint poss then yes they should be brought back down on level with other specs. And no my opinion isnt bias I not got sniper and have not played gunslinger in 12 months

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I'm calling out Austin P. Spend 5 minutes making a reply to the many threads on the balancing issues post 2.0

 

Tell us that we are wrong, that we are right. That you don't care because we don't have a glowstick & can do something besides Dps.

 

Communication is a simple yet important activity. BW fail in this respect!

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Can a vanguard/powertech even get a 6k crit? I never had on my vanguard so far and that pretty does seem a bit unfair that the vanguard/powertech cannot get that 6k crit medal in pvp.

 

? My railshot constantly crits 7k+

 

anywho 1.1 pyro + 30% surge on flameburst ideal do it now bioware.

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So it seems like Shadow tanks got a response. Apparently you have to wave a glowstick around to get the proper attention.

 

:wea_03:

 

Consider it waved.

 

Do you have *any* idea what we had to do to get even the modicum of attention that we received?

 

It wasn't just a glowstick thing. It was a "copious amounts of math, analysis, models, and numerous anecdotal and parse based data points along with copious intense discussion over the course of 3 months" thing and all we got was "investigating" and "no timeline". Hell, on *top* of that, it took someone spam posting in every forum to *finally* get their attention and give us a post. We Shadows *earned* that response.

 

This isn't to say that PT/VGs don't need a going over. I agree that they do (though, as a PvEer, I view it more through the lens of PvE than PvP; I still support a review for both though thanks to the overall gutting that the specs received). I *do* disagree with the notion that we Shadows got attention *easily* or because we're part of the glowstick brigade. We worked *damned* hard for that response and, even then, we got the bare minimum.

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PT/Vanguards want a buff? Fine, as long as their dps is under of a Merc/Mando, I don't want to get back to that era where a rifle class was doing more damage that a big *********** canon, thx.

 

Do you mean burst? because atm I still out DPS every DPS mando/merc in wzs lol. The fact of it is Powertechs/Vanguards didn't even need a nerf with everyother AC getting a buff people just complained and complained about the apparent OP hybrid spec on the 2.0 Test Server when ALL bioware needed to do was go into Advanced Prototype tree and make Charged Gauntlets only available with High energy gas cylinder on which they did the nerfs to pyro itself was not needed.

 

Btw if you're really trying to balance two seperate classes from cosmetics please just stop posting you're the morons bioware listen to sadly.

Edited by Dafydil
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i get the medal regularly but I suspect it s bc I hit people with lower expertise/stuff. Otherwise against geared people, i reach the 5k++.

 

I have 768 in bonus dmg, 25% crit, 75% surge and I am capped in expertise to give you an indication (roughly half partisan/half conqueror and optimised gear).

 

That represents some relatively weak dmg compared to what other classes can do with this stuff.

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

That's the entire point, compared to other classes vanguards/PTs hit like wet noodles. I'll say it now, and I'll say it until we regularly get 8-10k hits (like every other well geared AC), we need a buff to our damage and burst damage.

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Btw if you're really trying to balance two seperate classes from cosmetics please just stop posting you're the morons bioware listen to sadly.

 

By all means, go ahead, can't wait to roll a class with a toothpick weapon that can do more damage more than a warhammer.

Cosmetics? pshe, what for? For some lore consistency? Nahhh, you're right, those korean gaemz with chicks in bikini armor can sure take some dmg, go ahead BW, listen to this guy, go into full retard mode and make changes that doesn't fit the lore nor make sense at all.

Thank you Dafydil, this game is going to be a better place with you taking the reigns, man, I already feel safer now.

Edited by yoomazir
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By all means, go ahead, can't wait to roll a class with a toothpick weapon that can do more damage more than a warhammer.

 

A Blaster Pistol does the same damage as a Blaster Rifle. A Double-bladed lightsaber hits harder than a standard Lightsaber even though it's just an extra identical blade on the other end. A Scattergun deals the same damage as a Vibroknife.

 

The entire game exists as an abstraction to create a balanced construct within the confines of the game. Within the lore of TOR, an Jedi should be able to pretty much ignore anyone with a blaster because they could just reflect the shots forever. It would also only take a single hit with a saber to take out anyone. The game is forced to abandon these lore/cosmetic constructs in order to create a *balanced game*. Hell, there's no particularly good *lore* based reason why a Jedi shouldn't be able to pick up a Blaster or a Vanguard shouldn't be able to use an Assault Cannon. Those restrictions exist as game constructs.

 

Because we're dealing with a *game* not an attempt to approximate the real world, there's no reason why Commandos should naturally deal more damage than Vanguards nor is there any reason why *any* class should *naturally* have more functionality in their desired role than any other class (especially since the devs explicitly decided that there isn't supposed to be a hybrid tax). All that's required to have the Assault Cannon "make sense" as the more damaging weapon is for it to have a higher base damage (which is does). Beyond that, it's actually appropriate for the two classes to actually match their DPS because we're in a game and a game is supposed to support balanced classes to allow class choice to exist between equally viable options. The only difference between the damage dealing capabilities of a VG and a Commando is that a VG is supposed to DPS in melee/short range whereas a Commando is supposed to DPS at long range. The *playstyle* can differ (and it *should*), but damage should remain the same or, at least, the closest feasible approximation.

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By all means, go ahead, can't wait to roll a class with a toothpick weapon that can do more damage more than a warhammer.

Cosmetics? pshe, what for? For some lore consistency? Nahhh, you're right, those korean gaemz with chicks in bikini armor can sure take some dmg, go ahead BW, listen to this guy, go into full retard mode and make changes that doesn't fit the lore nor make sense at all.

Thank you Dafydil, this game is going to be a better place with you taking the reigns, man, I already feel safer now.

 

So A Vanguard should be nerfed even MORE because a class with a Assault cannon should do more dmg than it ok then you're a moron lmao.

Edited by Dafydil
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So A Vanguard should be nerfed even MORE because a class with a Assault cannon should do more dmg than it ok then you're a moron lmao.

 

You're such a bright light shining into the universe mate, keep up the good work.

Edited by yoomazir
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PT/Vanguards want a buff? Fine, as long as their dps is under of a Merc/Mando, I don't want to get back to that era where a rifle class was doing more damage that a big *********** canon, thx.

 

Take note that he didn't respond to Kitru's thought-out response, only to insults. So yeah, troll. Don't feed him.

Edited by ScytheEleven
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Vanguard/Powertech was the Fotm class for about a Year, and now it is just fine (maybe they nerfed it a little too much). Overall I think balance is quite good and never was better.

 

At no time was Powertech the best class. Sin was ALWAYS better, Mara was ALWAYS better. What powertech had was a counter to guard (doube dotting the guarded player and the player who was guarding). They had very good sustained dps and burst dps, but their defense as well as their utility was always lacking.

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Do you have *any* idea what we had to do to get even the modicum of attention that we received?

 

It wasn't just a glowstick thing. It was a "copious amounts of math, analysis, models, and numerous anecdotal and parse based data points along with copious intense discussion over the course of 3 months" thing and all we got was "investigating" and "no timeline". Hell, on *top* of that, it took someone spam posting in every forum to *finally* get their attention and give us a post. We Shadows *earned* that response.

 

This isn't to say that PT/VGs don't need a going over. I agree that they do (though, as a PvEer, I view it more through the lens of PvE than PvP; I still support a review for both though thanks to the overall gutting that the specs received). I *do* disagree with the notion that we Shadows got attention *easily* or because we're part of the glowstick brigade. We worked *damned* hard for that response and, even then, we got the bare minimum.

 

Here.

 

Done!

Damedealer role is a lot easier to locate and fix issues, really. And beacuse of it the lack of balance is much more widely known and more outrageous.

If they want Marauders and Snipers to be superior by design they should tell us. If not they should roll out balance patches. I truly hope it's the latter, because there is no point in playing a dedicated DPS in your Operation and handicapping yourself.

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A Blaster Pistol does the same damage as a Blaster Rifle. A Double-bladed lightsaber hits harder than a standard Lightsaber even though it's just an extra identical blade on the other end. A Scattergun deals the same damage as a Vibroknife.

 

The entire game exists as an abstraction to create a balanced construct within the confines of the game. Within the lore of TOR, an Jedi should be able to pretty much ignore anyone with a blaster because they could just reflect the shots forever. It would also only take a single hit with a saber to take out anyone. The game is forced to abandon these lore/cosmetic constructs in order to create a *balanced game*. Hell, there's no particularly good *lore* based reason why a Jedi shouldn't be able to pick up a Blaster or a Vanguard shouldn't be able to use an Assault Cannon. Those restrictions exist as game constructs.

 

Because we're dealing with a *game* not an attempt to approximate the real world, there's no reason why Commandos should naturally deal more damage than Vanguards nor is there any reason why *any* class should *naturally* have more functionality in their desired role than any other class (especially since the devs explicitly decided that there isn't supposed to be a hybrid tax). All that's required to have the Assault Cannon "make sense" as the more damaging weapon is for it to have a higher base damage (which is does). Beyond that, it's actually appropriate for the two classes to actually match their DPS because we're in a game and a game is supposed to support balanced classes to allow class choice to exist between equally viable options. The only difference between the damage dealing capabilities of a VG and a Commando is that a VG is supposed to DPS in melee/short range whereas a Commando is supposed to DPS at long range. The *playstyle* can differ (and it *should*), but damage should remain the same or, at least, the closest feasible approximation.

 

When you go and pick your Merc AC, the npcs hints you that the merc class is supposed to be the biggest dps between the 2 classes.

 

Your comment about the game abandoning lore/cosmetic in order to balance classes is somehow wrong, those comsetics are the defining of each class, I'm not sure a maraudeur would be okay if he saw a one saber class like the juggernaut outdpsing him. Cosmetics, and when I say cosmetics I say the "reason why these classes exist" in this game are still pretty important, unless, of course, you want to turn SWTOR into a korean mmorpg, then I would agree with you, the hell with the lore.

 

Still stand my position, PT pyro's can QQ all they want, I hope BW will never give them back their 3 buttons rolfstomp win. And not so long ago one of my guild buddy restarted playing his Pyro PT on WZs and was still doing awesome, so yeah, screw the crybabies.

 

 

Take note that he didn't respond to Kitru's thought-out response, only to insults. So yeah, troll. Don't feed him.

 

You just did, and now you got owned, *****.

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As far as I care VG/PT are fine. They were way overbalanced for a very long time, packing more punch then specialized DPS classes. VG/PT are still very fine as tanks in WZ's. I rather see them improve Commando which has been a laugh of a class in that area since the beta.
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You just did, and now you got owned, *****.

 

Only after you got called out for it, and still, your reasons are terrible. If you want it focused on lore so much, then lightsaber users would be gods in this game, and your assault cannon would be worthless when going up against a Sith or a Jedi.

 

Also, under no circumstances should a Merc/Mando ever call out another class for having too easy of a rotation. I don't think I should have to explain why.

Edited by ScytheEleven
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Only after you got called out for it, and still, your reasons are terrible. If you want it focused on lore so much, then lightsaber users would be gods in this game, and your assault cannon would be worthless when going up against a Sith or a Jedi.

 

Also, under no circumstances should a Merc/Mando ever call out another class for having too easy of a rotation. I don't think I should have to explain why.

 

Maybe merc rotation is somehow simple but it was never as stupid like the pre-2.0 pyro PT rotation.

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