I like to think the poor Mods (or Droids, whatever they call them) know we're not going to get a reply, so they just let this thread do its own thing. I don't remember it being visibly moderated after the "Yeah, we dropped the ball even further with Makeb than we admitted... maybe next time will have a balanced ratio" post. (Especially since 'next time' turned to be the PvP pit-crew minions, who will have zero conversations with us.) That's my buttumption, anyway.

Minge.

Well, in the game as it was at release there was at least one indication of a same gender romance between two NPCs. At was never quite clear, but it seemed to me that Juda and Crysta Markon were a couple.

Strangly it states that both of them are flirt options for male bounty hunters. But particularly Crysta seems pretty ... friendly even to a female bounty hunter...

The Bechdel's one of those well-meaning things which doesn't really work. Take your example, and a conversation about shoe-shopping and the price of lip-gloss: the stereotypical, vapid one will beat out the military dialogue.

 

I see BW shut another SGR thread in General - a polite disagreement was grounds enough. Not even the old "move to Story and ignore it" approach anymore... yet we can still say minge with impunity.

The Bechdel is one of those cases of 'criticism-by-numbers' that, yes, it well meaning, but ultimately does more harm than good. I mean, my own writing would fail the Bechdel test miserably because I have situations where the female characters talk about the male characters in situations having nothing to do with romance, lip-gloss, or the like.

And I did notice the mods seem to be going outright and just deleting whole threads if SGR's are brought up. I swear it's become a scorched earth policy.

Re: the language filter, yeah, they need to add in a lot of British idioms. I know I try not to swear, but British English is still English.

Re: the language filter, yeah, they need to add in a lot of British idioms. I know I try not to swear, but British English is still English.

Yeah, Bioware left a really racist rant up because it used British slurs that, to an America, look 'cute'. I reported it, like, six times. They didn't do anything. I PM'd Ms Green, they didn't do anything. So I was like, yeah, **** you.

On the Bechdel Test - have you heard of the Sexy Lamp Test? (Also, I think the Bechdel Test is better served as a starting point for examination on the representation of women in media, rather than an actual 'test')

Any particular reason you're so firmly against equality in this matter, or is it mainly that it won't add anything to the game that you, personally, care about?

This isn't government benefits or a government run game, therefore equality isn't a right here. This game is in trouble and has been for a while, so they should be tunnel visioning on fixing that. Benefit to the game should be the supreme concern. If Bioware finds that it will benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it. However, I don't want them wasting time putting it in because they are being yelled at by the gay community.

This isn't government benefits or a government run game, therefore equality isn't a right here. This game is in trouble and has been for a while, so they should be tunnel visioning on fixing that. Benefit to the game should be the supreme concern. If Bioware finds that it will benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it. However, I don't want them wasting time putting it in because they are being yelled at and guilted into it.

Bioware promised to include same gender romance multiple times during development and then after release. Therefore, it will benefit the company and game by making it clear that the developers are reliable and follow up on things they say they will do. Therefore, you can happily support the inclusion of SGR in TOR.

Any particular reason you're so firmly against equality in this matter, or is it mainly that it won't add anything to the game that you, personally, care about?

This isn't government benefits or a government run game, therefore equality isn't a right here. This game is in trouble and has been for a while, so they should be tunnel visioning on fixing that. Benefit to the game should be the supreme concern. If Bioware finds that it will benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it. However, I don't want them wasting time putting it in purely for the sake of equality.

This isn't government benefits or a government run game, therefore equality isn't a right here. This game is in trouble and has been for a while, so they should be tunnel visioning on fixing that. Benefit to the game should be the supreme concern. If Bioware finds that it will benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it. However, I don't want them wasting time putting it in purely for the sake of equality.

1) Personally, I think they should give us what they promised us from the beginning.

2) I would like a full list of what you believe is wrong with this game. Why is it in trouble exactly?

3) just because some cisgender, heterosexual individual believes that this is "purely for the sake of equality" does not make it so.

4) Personally, I believe one of the things that IS wrong with this game is the fact that they haven't given us the SGR's.

5) BioWare is currently involved in putting in a PvP update which is, honestly, not something that a lot of people want, feel will benefit the game, or enjoy- and trust me, I tried it. Couldn't even get 12 people to play it most of the time.

6) what you feel is important and what I feel is important are two different things, but if you are going to say that hat you want takes priority over what I feel is important, please have a very, very strong argument backed by examples of what is wrong and suggested solutions.

7) just saying 'this isn't government benefits' does not qualify as a good reason- Equality is about more than what the government gives you.

This isn't government benefits or a government run game, therefore equality isn't a right here. This game is in trouble and has been for a while, so they should be tunnel visioning on fixing that. Benefit to the game should be the supreme concern. If Bioware finds that it will benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it. However, I don't want them wasting time putting it in purely for the sake of equality.

I thought the game was doing pretty well financially. I know they doubled their revenue after going F2P.

I thought the game was doing pretty well financially. I know they doubled their revenue after going F2P.

Which makes the delay of full SGR's even more problematic.

Bioware promised to include same gender romance multiple times during development and then after release. Therefore, it will benefit the company and game by making it clear that the developers are reliable and follow up on things they say they will do. Therefore, you can happily support the inclusion of SGR in TOR.

Priorities change. This game fell off big time after launch, so they had to shift priorities to turn things around. I am not in favor of using reasoning like equality or past promises to justify adding stuff to the game. I think the focus should be on adding stuff that benefits the game enough to justify the addition. Anything else should be back burnered.

What I personally support doesn't matter. I'll personally never support adding this, but I also don't support adding space combat. However, they apparently judged that adding space combat will benefit the game enough to justify the addition, so I don't care. If adding same sex romance is judged to benefit the game enough to justify the addition, I they should go for it.

Overall, the only thing I want is for them to hit stride and start making more money, hiring more devs, and adding even more content.

1) Personally, I think they should give us what they promised us from the beginning.

2) I would like a full list of what you believe is wrong with this game. Why is it in trouble exactly?

3) just because some cisgender, heterosexual individual believes that this is "purely for the sake of equality" does not make it so.

4) Personally, I believe one of the things that IS wrong with this game is the fact that they haven't given us the SGR's.

5) BioWare is currently involved in putting in a PvP update which is, honestly, not something that a lot of people want, feel will benefit the game, or enjoy- and trust me, I tried it. Couldn't even get 12 people to play it most of the time.

6) what you feel is important and what I feel is important are two different things, but if you are going to say that hat you want takes priority over what I feel is important, please have a very, very strong argument backed by examples of what is wrong and suggested solutions.

7) just saying 'this isn't government benefits' does not qualify as a good reason- Equality is about more than what the government gives you.

Well I can't be bothered to respond to all 7 points specifically, so I'll just respond to them all at once. If what you want doesn't benefit the game, it shouldn't be a priority. I tend to be against people that justify being given something on being entitled to it. No one is entitled to have anything added to the game. So, if they evaluate adding this and find that it is going to benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it.

I thought the game was doing pretty well financially. I know they doubled their revenue after going F2P.

They've probably been doing better since F2P, but I doubt that they recouped the loses that occurred shortly after launch. I am pretty sure that the game, while doing better, isn't doing as well as they intended for it to do.

Well I can't be bothered to respond to all 7 points specifically, so I'll just respond to them all at once. If what you want doesn't benefit the game, it shouldn't be a priority. I tend to be against people that justify being given something on being entitled to it. No one is entitled to have anything added to the game. So, if they evaluate adding this and find that it is going to benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it.

In other words "I don't actually HAVE any actual reasons to not include SGR's other than my own dislike of them, and because I don't, I'm going to try and shift this off to you to come up with a justification." If you are the one making the assertions, then the onus of proving that there are more important priorities than SGR's to be added to the game is upon you, not upon me. My justification for them being included in the game forthwith is the fact that we were promised them in the game back before launch and they have not been added in properly.

So, in order for YOU to prove that there are more important things out there, you should address my points or just never bother replying. Either we have an actual discussion about this topic or you stop trolling.

They've probably been doing better since F2P, but I doubt that they recouped the loses that occurred shortly after launch. I am pretty sure that the game, while doing better, isn't doing as well as they intended for it to do.

Again, please provide proof. Just because you think you know something does not mean that you actually know it.

In other words "I don't actually HAVE any actual reasons to not include SGR's other than my own dislike of them, and because I don't, I'm going to try and shift this off to you to come up with a justification." If you are the one making the assertions, then the onus of proving that there are more important priorities than SGR's to be added to the game is upon you, not upon me. My justification for them being included in the game forthwith is the fact that we were promised them in the game back before launch and they have not been added in properly.

 

So, in order for YOU to prove that there are more important things out there, you should address my points or just never bother replying. Either we have an actual discussion about this topic or you stop trolling it so you can stoke your own ego.

Why use the tired strategy of saying "in other words" and then mutating my post into something I didn't say. Why not respond precisely to what I said instead rewriting it into something I didn't say .

Also, I don't have to prove or justify anything. It isn't my job to prove what game content to add and what game content not to add. Bioware should add this if they judge that it benefits the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it.. More or less, my only point is that I am against adding it for the sake of equality or making some political statement.

Yeh I'll never persronally support it, but I would be perfectly fine with the addition if the devs decide that the benefit of adding this is worth the resources. I would be annoyed if they decide to add it to make a statement or to bring in equality.

Again, please provide proof. Just because you think you know something does not mean that you actually know it.

No, because it is a minor point. Even if it is wrong, which for the sake of the argument, we'll say I am wrong. This game is doing great is is financially doing better than most other MMOs out there. SWTOR is doing just as good as they intended it to do. it doesn't change my overall point that the additions should be based on what benefits the game enough to justify the resources not equality or political statements.

Yeh I'll never persronally support it, but I would be perfectly fine with the addition if the devs decide that the benefit of adding this is worth the resources. I would be annoyed if they decide to add it to make a statement or to bring in equality./QUOTE]

 

So, my 'rewrite' of what you wrote was accurate. Thank you for acknowledging that. Secondly, it does benefit the game. IF they had no OGR's at all, it would be a simple thing to just not have romance arcs in the game at all; however, members of the LGBT Community are more likely to buy or support games which are inclusive and represent them in some fashion- which means more money, and are less likely to buy or support games if they are exclusive- as in having only heterosexual romance arcs.

 

Simply put, if they included SGR's, more LGBT people would be willing to play the game and use the Cartel Market. Excluding SGR's means that fewer LGBT people are unwilling to play the game and use the Cartel Market.

Yeh I'll never persronally support it, but I would be perfectly fine with the addition if the devs decide that the benefit of adding this is worth the resources. I would be annoyed if they decide to add it to make a statement or to bring in equality./QUOTE]

 

So, my 'rewrite' of what you wrote was accurate. Thank you for acknowledging that. Secondly, it does benefit the game. IF they had no OGR's at all, it would be a simple thing to just not have romance arcs in the game at all; however, members of the LGBT Community are more likely to buy or support games which are inclusive and represent them in some fashion- which means more money, and are less likely to buy or support games if they are exclusive- as in having only heterosexual romance arcs.

 

Simply put, if they included SGR's, more LGBT people would be willing to play the game and use the Cartel Market. Excluding SGR's means that fewer LGBT people are unwilling to play the game and use the Cartel Market.

 

Nothing in what I've written proves your rewrite of my post to be accurate. What is so hard about responding explicitly to what I say instead of rewriting into something that is inflammatory and easier for you to respond to.

Just responding to what I say would make the discussion much more productive.

 

I never said it doesn't benefit the game. I said it should only be added if it benefits the game enough to justify the resources. Determining whether it does or does not isn't my job. You are saying that adding this will bring in more lgbt subscribers and cartel market spenders. If their data shows that adding this content will garner enough lgbt subscribers and cartel market spenders to justify the resources, I don't care if they add it.

SGRAs, if properly planned, are not expensive.

The necessary coding can happen simultaneously with other companion related coding, like the rather useful function of a possible companion/story reset to allow replays of a companion story arc and making the addition of new companion content worthwhile.

Voice work is a minor budget point, since the recording of the few new lines can also happen the recording of other voice work, which is necessary unless companions will be completely silent on all future planets and/or story lines.

The biggest issue is the complete silence right now. If we got an update on what stage the implementation of proper SGRAs (if writing, coding, voice work is done/still in work) the situation would be vastly improved.

As it is now, I re-subbed for two months recently but every time I try to get into the game the lack of SGRAs and the total silence put me so off that I stop the game after five minutes, so I guess I will be gone once my time runs out again, because hanging around here all the time would just make me bitter.

I said it should only be added if it benefits the game enough to justify the resources.

Unless you have any data - hard evidence of truthful data - about the resources it takes to update any particular part of this game then you must understand that your comments seemed - and still seem - to boil down to 'This shouldn't be in because I don't like it.'

You cite that you believe it should go in if it will benefit the game sufficiently - all right, that's fair enough. You also cite that the game is in trouble (though I've yet to see any specific, factual evidence to state exactly and objectively how much 'trouble' it is in; you certainly haven't provided any).

Here's the thing: I know at least a dozen people who would be far more inclined to play - and very likely start a subscription - if SGRAs were a part of the game. I have not done any particular research into how many would or wouldn't; that number is a rough one but it's pulled from actual conversations I've had about the game. Some used to play, some never have. All of them were surprised that SGRAs weren't in it from launch - specifically because it's a Bioware game.

Now, maybe it's partly because I talk to people who tend to be sympathetic to LGBTI issues or are, indeed, themselves part of the LGBTI spectrum, but if I can think of that many without doing a survey I think it's fair enough to extrapolate that putting SGRAs in as an option would benefit the game's health far more than one might suspect (and a great deal more than you seem to be implying).

timidobserver, you have stated you will never support SGRA inclusion. The word 'never' was yours. That means that even if the game were the healthiest in the world you would not support SGRA inclusion. Yet you say you have nothing against it going in if it's a suitable use of the resources that you don't have any data upon.

I must, therefore, come to the conclusion that the reason you don't want SGRAs in the game is because of some form of homophobic ideal (because, truly, nothing else fits). So why are you bothering to come to this thread and say 'Oh, I don't have anything against it going in if the game's healthy enough but I'll never support it going in,' (both of which are concrete statements that you have made) and then getting uppity and morally righteous when people call you out on your stance?

 

Nothing in what I've written proves your rewrite of my post to be accurate. What is so hard about responding explicitly to what I say instead of rewriting into something that is inflammatory and easier for you to respond to.

Just responding to what I say would make the discussion much more productive.

 

I never said it doesn't benefit the game. I said it should only be added if it benefits the game enough to justify the resources. Determining whether it does or does not isn't my job. You are saying that adding this will bring in more lgbt subscribers and cartel market spenders. If their data shows that adding this content will garner enough lgbt subscribers and cartel market spenders to justify the resources, I don't care if they add it.

 

I have been around enough to know what people mean when they say things like "enough to justify" and "benefits". You have not provided one single whiff of evidence to support your statements; however, I should point out that a lot of us- myself included- only bought the game on the promise of SGR's, and a lot of us have not been paying in order to play the game. I've seen this pattern before. You say that it is not your place to determine if this is a benefit and that you do not care if it is added or not- but if that is the case, why are you even commenting? Someone who is apathetic to this discussion would not say anything. Someone who has a vested interest in the topic- either for or against- would say something. Quite often we get people trying to bend their words around so that they do not sound like they are against SGR's even when they are against them by making the exact claims you have.

 

So, either prove that this is something that is not a priority, or you will continue to to run into people who are quite skeptical about your statements. Prove your point. If you do not wish to prove your point, then why bother continuing to comment?

As it is now, I re-subbed for two months recently but every time I try to get into the game the lack of SGRAs and the total silence put me so off that I stop the game after five minutes, so I guess I will be gone once my time runs out again, because hanging around here all the time would just make me bitter.

I accidentally resubbed recently. Come January, I'm not sure I'll do that. It'll all depend on SGRA's and/or my decision to purchase the ewok (who is female) so that I can have a female companion from level 10 on a character.

Ok.

 

Admittedly, 1998, when 'Fanboys' plays, 'Name me on star wars character who is confirmed in canon to be gay' couldn't have been answered, but thanks to Karen Traviss, in the last decade it could be answered. So the argument has been invalid for some time.

 

As for feeling uncomfortable with same sex-themes in your favorite game: It is a problem. Some people are emotionally deeply touched by the public display of same-sex-affection, even to a point where they liken exposure to it to 'rape', and get very worked up about something they could easily ignore, and usually do, in cases of public displays of other-sex-affection. One of those once even told me in a discussion that seeing two men kissing causes strong revulsion in him.

 

What can I say? The freedom to kiss my love is more worth to me than avoiding their discomfort, so I tacitly accept that it may make them uncomfortable. I heard desensitation therapy has pretty good success rates in similar cases, if it becomes unbearable.

 

Reasons for equal representation in the game have been given in this thread enough. From a RP-perspective, it would be nice if my characters could stop pining. My smuggler is a straight woman and apparently has ample opportunity, my jedi-shadow has this whole discipline thing going, and can - if not happily - live with it. But my sith-inquisitor ........ as catty as this guy is, I think he really needs a man.

clicked on the link DANG IT!!!

Do you want to know what i think?

well, i don't care, I'm still telling you

we are we even spending our time talking about this half of the day. it's not like Bioware or anyone else is going to change anything because we sat here and said something about it.

So why waste our time?

It's totally pointless, were talking, but no one is listening.

This isn't government benefits or a government run game, therefore equality isn't a right here. This game is in trouble and has been for a while, so they should be tunnel visioning on fixing that. Benefit to the game should be the supreme concern. If Bioware finds that it will benefit the game enough to justify the resources, they should go for it. However, I don't want them wasting time putting it in purely for the sake of equality.

They've already said F2P turned the monetary side around, people got the Ops, WZs and SSSP they were demanding, and bug-fixes have nothing to do with story content.

So unless you'd care to explain what else you mean by "in trouble", the "I don't want" is what's going to stand out in your post.

Meanwhile, in Star Wars EU, in a galaxy far far away, a Dathomir Witch seems to have had a force connection to these forums and developers:

"What sort of thoughts could a man have about anything, after all? They thought about eating, sleeping, breeding, working, and spending their few leisure hours playing games with abstruse rules that resulted in the winners mocking the losers."

The Last Jedi; Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff

Long live the matriarchy! ^_^

They've already said F2P turned the monetary side around, people got the Ops, WZs and SSSP they were demanding, and bug-fixes have nothing to do with story content.

 

So unless you'd care to explain what else you mean by "in trouble", the "I don't want" is what's going to stand out in your post.

It does seem rather odd that someone who is (apparently) otherwise ambivalent to the inclusion of content, is so firmly against including it that they would go so far as to say that story writers (who have no programming skills whatsoever) should be involved in debugging.

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Because, whenever these so-called "concerned" individuals waltz in here with their "concern" for the state of the game, they forever accuse us of not caring for the game. They seem to think that, because we would like more story content of better and more inclusive quality, we would deny them their bug fixes, or Operations (of which there are many), or War Zones (of which there are some) or mini-games (on which Bioware has said nothing.) Well, SWTOR has a micro-transaction system now which supports it well - we now have the SSSP, which is default free to subscribers - not something that could have happened on the previous subscription only model. And yet, apparently, Austin is so strapped for cash they must force Mr. Hood to do character modelling and Mr. Boyd to look for errant semi-colons and dropped brackets? That is utterly ludicrous.

No, it's fairly obvious the position of this "concerned" individuals, and why they choose to hide said behind such outlandish ignorance.

Because it worse to be accused of oppression, than it is to actually experience it*.

*The original line is "It's worse to be called a racist, than to be a victim of racism" and comes from the terribly uppity, offended and self-serving cries that come from (generally) white people who get called out on their problematic language or bloody obvious (pun intended) blackface.