O hello,

 

I started tanking in this game 5 days ago when I hit 50 and I do not know what the crap I'm doing wrong. Here's the story. I play @ Harbinger.

 

To start out I'll mention my gear:

- Custom headitem with Columi mods and Shield augment (for the rest no augments yet, haven't really brought myself to grinding dailies but I will! I promise D: )

- Rakata chestpiece (which I ironically got from Lost Island)

- Columi hands, legs, feet, offhand, earpiece, belt, bracer.

- Rakata relic w. shield absorbtion and rating

- War Hero relic w/ shield rating

- Rakata & Black Hole implants

- Tier 1 Tank lightsaber (Last Bastion), because I missed out on the columi weap every time >_>

 

I go by the standard priority list of abilities: FB (to debuff) > TK (3x HS) > ST > Project > DS > SS. Talent tree is 31 in Kinetic and 10 in Balance.

I always keep Shield Ward up. Because you know, has to be.

 

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I queue up for Lost Island. Great I join a pug. We head up to the first boss. And mind you, this happens to me every time.... I die on the first boss DOUBLE U TEE EFF MATE.

 

The boss hits me for 6,7k. I assume this is normal. When I'm at 50/60% HP I pop up deflection, and since the boss doesn't have force/tech powers I assume Resilience is not really useful. However, like any other defensive ability the timer runs out. So I pop out my relic as fast as I can. After this I end up dying.

 

Questions incoming:

- Is it me or does the healer suck?

I've told the healers (because I ran it multiple times) to focus healing on me, and I presumed they did. I mean, if the DPS need healing on that boss they must be colorblind or something, anyone should be able to spot those yellow marks on dee floor.

 

Note that I'm not sure what the healers were doing all the time and yes I should be more aware of this. I don't know if the past healers were dps-ing too, I've had idiots like that before.

 

- Or is the dps too low to finish this low HP boss off?

I mean 113/130 or whatever kilo HP that guy has should be easy to burn down.

 

I can take on every other boss past that one without dying fast. Only on one occassion I died within seconds on the droid and the healer blamed me for it (I had buffs and Kinetic Ward up). And yes I interrupted his incinerate.

 

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So, any ideas? Thanks for reading this wall of text lol.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Rahizm

There are a lot of things that can go wrong in this fight and it is really unfair to blame your healer especially if your a.new fifty. I find on that fight most tanks and dps completely ignore the adds and they will go straight for the healer and its very difficult to heal when you as the healer have to kill the adds.

 

Also 6.7k damage per hit seems a bit crazy he doesn't hit my guardian tank anywhere near that hard. I know shadows are very different but what are your defensive stats at?

 

One last small side note I would not name any players here like you did with your healer. Definitely makes you look like a dick.

The first boss is hard to heal through. Your first mistake is probably pugging Lost Island (find a guild and run with your guild, especially guild healers).

 

You need to be staying out of the circles yourself. Make use of all your cooldowns (get an absorb adrenal and medpac too, I use a Rakata). I personally like to use one cooldown after another on that boss as soon as they are available because he's so spikey. You also are lightly geared so Lost Island is going to be a challenge where you seem to be right now. You're un-Augmented and in mostly Columi, which makes it pretty hard. My shadow is in BH/Rakata and he still hits like a truck and the FP. You probably need some more heavily geared people to come with you to help carry you through this boss a little bit.

 

For the droid, if you die within seconds of the droid starting up Incinerate got off. I can't really imagine any other reason. He doesnt do that much damage at first that you can't deal with otherwise, whether you had heals on you or not.

 

Just get your gear up, get augments in, and do gear checks before each run. And run with a guild.

I think you just need time and practice, I am a shadow tank and have been tanking LI for almost a year now.

It is never a good idea to blame others, when things go south, I am inclined to think the problem lie's with yourself.

 

The reason I say this is, if you wipe with one group, fare enough, but if you wipe with every group then you must look to yourself.

 

Your build is a little low for tier 2, and my advice try to get a hold of a shield amplification relic, EV drops a lot of them.

The shadow rotation is just as important as the build, not just for you, but for the rest of the group, since you are also healing them for 6%, also using guard can be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

 

Good luck,

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kabolt

Then how come I was able to survive the first 3 times I came around there?

 

I do avoid the yellow markers myself. And I have tanking experience from other MMO's, I'm just a new fifty on this character with the gear.

 

My stats are the following at the moment from the top of my head (I'm on an alt):

 

22,5k HP

5758 armor rating

38% dmg reduction

22% def chance

35.07% shield chance (55% with Kinetic Ward)

48.21% shield absorbtion

 

The above is with all class buffs.

 

On a side note: I never had to taunt as of yet, threat generation is no problem. I won't fully blame anyone. I'm questioning as to how I possibly could not survive anything or if I'm doing anything wrong. Actually it's me who's getting blamed for dying.

 

And yes I do receive that much damage if I'm hit.

 

EDIT: I've adjusted my gear list since I switched out 1 rakata relic for a war hero relic, also doubting if it's the right one (shrouded crusader). I actually looked around the forums more before I read all your posts in this topic. And isn't Lost Island MEANT for people with at least full columi (rating 136)?

 

And yeah, my bad for naming the guy. Removed it.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Rahizm

the problem may not lie necessary with the healer, could be that the dps taking to much damage and the healer has to save them. Could be that the healer does not play well under stress. Could be that yourfault tooo, i don't know.

 

 

What i know is that shadow tanking is fine. I tank lost island in full tionese, not, partly but full tionese, so it's doable. I haven''t see you tanking so i can't tell where is the problem.

 

Make sure you keep your ward up, make sure you keep debuff un target up, use defnsive cooldown, interupt incinerate, if you miss, use resilience to dispell. don't stand in electric dome. don't stand on the fire. use harness shadow as often as you can.

 

If you do all that, then the problem may certainly lie elsewhere.

Well that Shaclaw is quite *****y at times.

There are days where I don't take any damage at all, the next day he hits me like a truck.

If you die on Putrid Shaclaw you were most likely standing on the yellow circles that it puts on the ground.

 

Now, you may think that you were not standing on one, because you did not see one and therefore thought there was none, but if you died, you did stand on one, it just bugged out and was not visible.

 

You should always assume that there is a a yellow circle under you and keep moving every few seconds.

 

Just strafe left and move in a circle around it and keep moving like that.

Click on the guide in my signature for class specific information. You should NEVER augment for Shield, only Absorb/Defense.

 

For the first boss I've generally only died if the DPS don't kill the adds and they nuke me at the same time as the boss. I try to kill them myself immediately when I'm not in guild groups now.

Edited February 4, 2013 by ckoneful

Your stats are not too bad, with a strong group you will do better.

 

I don't want to get caught up in a stats for stats talk, but I'll just say this, your stats are progressing towards mine.

There are two schools of thought with regards to tanking, I will not say one is correct and the other wrong because it depends on the tank.

 

if you read this it will explain much better than I can;

 

http://www.thewalkingcarpets.com/forum/m/3065305/viewthread/5383418-shadow-tanking-primer/forum_id/744058/post/last

 

Tier 2 - mostly or full Rakata - but augmented Columi is close enough.

 

I think the most important part of that fight is, that the DPS take out the adds asap, and that you move out of the circles before or as they appear, I watch the ground it turns dark at the start.

 

Try starting your fight with - Slow time > mind control > force breach > project, along with as you see fit, Saber strike and double strike, with kinetic throw every three stacks - whirling blow does not use any force so use it when low on force.

 

Personally I tend to just, spam force patency, kinetic ward and resilience.

 

Your impaired movement de-buffs are project, force speed and force of will.

There is a chance project will reset the slow time and force breach timers.

 

Your get me out of jail free cards are; deflection, battle readiness and force cloak.

Remember force cloak takes you out of combat, you can pop a second med pack or revive a dead medic.

 

I move him 90 deg away from the group, don't let any DPS or Healers stand in front of him.

 

Have fun, join a guild if you haven't and give it time.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kabolt

Healer here, can't really help except to say read Kabolt link. I have healed many HM FP, HL LI and Operations with the person that wrote that write up. While the Shadow Tank is not his main, he is the reason that as a healer I personally believe the shadow tank is the best tank in the game (or at least my favorite to play with).

 

No real way to know what the problem is without being there, but this statement at least tells me at least part of the problem is you.

I assume Resilience is not really useful

Even on my dps shadow I know Resilience is Very useful.

 

Personally if I were tanking, I would also read write ups on all the different healers so that you have some clue of their abilities. As a healer i have done that with the other healing classes, the tanks and dps, so that I am better at my role as healer or dps.

I've told the healers (because I ran it multiple times) to focus healing on me, and I presumed they did. I mean, if the DPS need healing on that boss they must be colorblind or something, anyone should be able to spot those yellow marks on dee floor..

Any decent healer is going to focus on the tank, but none that I know are only going to heal the tank. I heal whoever needs a heal whenever they need a heal. I would agree with you and then do it the way I was taught no matter what the tank told me. I know a shadow tank can pretty much become immune to damage for a few seconds, so if it is between hitting the tank or hitting the highest output dps, I will hit the highest output dps, because at least with the shadow that wrote the article Kabolt quoted, he will easily survive until after I hit dps with a big heal.

 

Then how come I was able to survive the first 3 times I came around there?

First three groups may have all been good, over geared players that knew the instance and their class. My healer is well enough geared now that I could heal anyone through that fight pretty much no matter what they do. That does not mean a healer that can't is bad, it just means they are limited by gear. Same could be said for any role. It is just other than people getting knocked off the platform during Sav-Rak I consider any death during HM LI my fault no matter who the other players are.

 

Unless you know their class and their limitations, I would be careful blaming others, I would be more worried about making myself the best that I could be until I was able to carry people through. I have learned more from bad groups than I have good groups. You get in there with 4 really good players and you breeze through, but when do it with not great players, it teaches you to get better to get through the instances. Dying isn't bad in this game, if you learn something that will help you get through it more efficiently next time.

Edited February 4, 2013 by mikebevo

Click on the guide in my signature for class specific information. You should NEVER augment for Shield, only Absorb/Defense.

 

For the first boss I've generally only died if the DPS don't kill the adds and they nuke me at the same time as the boss. I try to kill them myself immediately when I'm not in guild groups now.

 

Doesn't shield rating also increase the amount absorbed? Well still valuable advice. I went with shield before reading anything because I happened to pick it up on a random mob in a FP. But I guess I'll go for absorb/defence augments instead.

 

I saw a healing relic flash by a few days ago which to my knowledge didn't seem useful. As I looked around it apparently is useful (according to your tutorial and others on this forum). So I guess I'll also go for that. Sorry if this threat becomes a more Shadow-class related topic thing lol.

 

@ Kabolt. That guide/link seems useful, I'll use that information. Thanks!

Also, now that you've mentioned Force Cloak, I don't use this ability at all because the boss might insta-kill a party member or so. Well, at least that was my initial thought. I assumed a Shadow Tank should just take/absorb damage and make sure he keeps aggro and only let another tank grab threat in Ops (with exception of bosses who cannot be taunted ofcourse). Maybe I should use it in oh-**** situations like that.

 

@ Vankris. It might've been the dps moving only a bit late on the yellow circles. I'm pretty aware of the environment I"m tanking in. On the droid, and it happened only ONCE, incinerate got interrupted but the droid managed to kill me because I didn't receive any heals. Next run (pug, different group) went almost perfect so yeah.

 

@schnopsnosn. Was that in a PUG or guild run? It's exactly what I meant.

 

@Eternalnight. Can it be buggy at times? I did notice that at occassions the ground like, erupts, but no yellow circle appears. I assumed nothing happens and I keep standing there, watching till a yellow circle actually appears. Anyway I'll take your advice on the keep moving thing, thanks!

 

@mikebevo. I'm actually (willing to) try(ing) out every class in-game (but I do have a life!!!). I did the same in WoW during the Wotlk days, just so I know what every class and tree is capable of. I have a combat medic commando already. However, I seem to be teamed up with sages more. The last idk how many runs were with sages as healers. Runs with smugglers as healers and commandos went more smoothly or just smooth than with Sages.

 

I'll take everyone's advice in mind and I'll go over the tuts and the Shadow tanking primes a couple more times. I did get recruited into a guild during a LI run but I don't want to sound arrogant as to how I got in there . Thanks everyone for the helpful advice!

@schnopsnosn. Was that in a PUG or guild run? It's exactly what I meant.

 

Guild run.

I refuse to PUG LI.

Try starting your fight with - Slow time > mind control > force breach > project, along with as you see fit, Saber strike and double strike, with kinetic throw every three stacks - whirling blow does not use any force so use it when low on force.

 

Hmmmm ...... lol ? Using a taunt as 2nd spell = noob. yes, noob.

 

Kinetic Ward just before engaging

Engaging with Force Pull during Force speed to reach the boss

Project

Slow Time

Force Breach

Double attack

Project

Force Potency

Telekinetic Throw

 

And now, if you want to be SURE to keep the boss, Mind Control, but you probably don't need it, unless your DPS are overgeared and without guard.

 

For the OP : probably the healer's fault. I saw many Sages doing some DPS on that boss, just because the tank's hp are over 70%. 2 hits later, he dies.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Hovergame

The reason I say this is, if you wipe with one group, fare enough, but if you wipe with every group then you must look to yourself.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking.

Doesn't shield rating also increase the amount absorbed?

 

No. Shield rating only increases your Shield chance. Absorption rating is required to increase your shield amount.

Hmmmm ...... lol ? Using a taunt as 2nd spell = noob. yes, noob.

 

Kinetic Ward just before engaging

Engaging with Force Pull during Force speed to reach the boss

Project

Slow Time

Force Breach

Double attack

Project

Force Potency

Telekinetic Throw

 

And now, if you want to be SURE to keep the boss, Mind Control, but you probably don't need it, unless your DPS are overgeared and without guard.

 

For the OP : probably the healer's fault. I saw many Sages doing some DPS on that boss, just because the tank's hp are over 70%. 2 hits later, he dies.

 

This guy is right. Was going to comment on the Taunt being the 2nd used attack last night but decided to go pass out instead >_>

@mikebevo. I'm actually (willing to) try(ing) out every class in-game (but I do have a life!!!). I did the same in WoW during the Wotlk days, just so I know what every class and tree is capable of. I have a combat medic commando already. However, I seem to be teamed up with sages more. The last idk how many runs were with sages as healers. Runs with smugglers as healers and commandos went more smoothly or just smooth than with Sages. !

Sage explains a lot. Great healing class, just not great a burst healing, use Resilience in those oh crap moments and give them a chance to get their heals off. With a Sage they will have you back at 100% fast, you just need to buy them a few seconds.

 

But you're correct sawbones are the best class in the game, healing or anything else. Joking, they are all well balanced, but all have the strenghts and limitations, so it is up to you to know them and help them out the best you can.

This guy is right. Was going to comment on the Taunt being the 2nd used attack last night but decided to go pass out instead >_>

Right about that, not right about blaming the healer. That is like saying well your rotation is wrong, but no problem blame that healer. It may very well be the healers fault, but I don't know that, more likely it is the group is largely inexperienced with their class, role and/or instances and still need to some work. Edited February 4, 2013 by mikebevo

Right about that, not right about blaming the healer. That is like saying well your rotation is wrong, but no problem blame that healer. It may very well be the healers fault, but I don't know that, more likely it is the group is largely inexperienced with their class, role and/or instances and still need to some work.

 

Well, that wasn't his rotation

And i said "PROBABLY" about the healer But his stats seem right and that boss doesn't ask anything special about tanking, just keep him and stay out of the circles. As a shadow, he cannot do anything more than "keep the debuffs and auto-heal when he has 3 charges" and "Deflexion if he's low".

Speaking from experience, if I've done my job and not stood in the grates while the lava comes through, interrupted incinerate as soon as I can and shroud / resilience the one stack I missed, and use overcharge saber / whatever the shadow equivalent is as often as I can to get the 10% HP heal then it's time to look at the rest of the group. Most of the time it's due to placement and people ignoring the wrong mechanics.

 

This is particularly true if they're not familiar with the fight or managed to LoS you to avoid the low HP adds that spawn because your DPS isn't taking care of them. There are a few mechanics to the LR-5 droid that, if ignored, cause a cascade failure as the timing on the other mechanics makes things fall apart.

 

Example: Moving out of LoS of the healer to pick up adds (the DPS should do this), only to walk through the lava and pick up a fire dot (should not happen, or use shroud / resilience), getting a DPS drop a bubble on you at the same time you run way (should be dropping bubbles in designated areas) so that you have to run away from it but miss the incinerate (should always be in range to interrupt) and it destroys your group.

 

That's a very poor scenario, but I've seem parts of that happen almost every single time I've pugged this fight. I'll ask if it's anyone's first time, get no response, and see some random player die to a bubble when he drops the first one.

 

My favorite is when they're taking damage from the bubble and instead of moving, they take the time to type out how the healer sucks. Yeah, sure thing pal.

Is this the boss with all the fire coming from the grills etc etc? If so I have not been able to heal on this fp yet....only HM has ever popped tbh but it just seems impossible....

And i said "PROBABLY" about the healer But his stats seem right and that boss doesn't ask anything special about tanking, just keep him and stay out of the circles. As a shadow, he cannot do anything more than "keep the debuffs and auto-heal when he has 3 charges" and "Deflexion if he's low".

Well from the healer side it doesn't ask anything special about healing either, I didn't even know the Putrid Shaclaw was even a mini boss until this thread. I have never seen anyone die there, in PUGs or Guild runs. I have even done that fight with the healer afk on a guild run with a shadow tank. The only healing being done was from his relic and 2 watchmen. So I am at a loss, how anyone could get unlucky enough to get 6 groups in a row die on a mini boss. Even if you were not using healer 6 times in a row seems a little extreme.

 

I will also say I dps the hell out of that fight on my sawbones, I drop flyby right at the pull, there is nothing there to put a extreme burden on the healer. Although I will say I over heal every fight so Tank is already getting big heals when and if they hit 80%.

Edited February 4, 2013 by mikebevo

Is this the boss with all the fire coming from the grills etc etc? If so I have not been able to heal on this fp yet....only HM has ever popped tbh but it just seems impossible....

 

No the first "mini" boss, the shaclaw. He hits very, very hard and can be a challenge to heal through.

 

In response to the OP, shadows have the weakest passive mitigation of all the tanks and tend to take a lot more damage if they don't use their active mitigation and self heals properly. This can overwhelm the healer at times, especially on a boss that does massive hits like the shaclaw. A sage healer and shadow tank is the worst possible combination for this guy (sage healers have awesome AoE heals, but weaker single-target heals than scoundrels and commandos; on the shaclaw, the only person who should be taking damage is the tank).

 

It's impossible to know who's to blame. Maybe the DPS didn't kill the mini-shaclaws first, letting them chew away at the healer and forcing the healer to use GCDs for self-healing. Maybe they couldn't bring the shaclaw down fast enough. Maybe the healer had a bad rotation or insufficient gear for the FP. Maybe you were undergeared or didn't hit your rotation. Maybe somebody kept standing in the acid on the ground. Maybe a bit of everything.

 

LI is definitely frustrating to pug. Not only is a challenging, mechanics-heavy FP, a lot of players rage quit at the first sign of trouble. This forces the pug to either quit the FP or hang about waiting for a replacement. I know I'm always nervous when I try to pug it, knowing there's a good chance that someone will quit before we finish if things don't go smoothly, wasting a lot of time and possibly a good chunk of money on repair bills for no reward or satisfaction.

Edited February 4, 2013 by SleepyKing

sage healers have awesome AoE heals, but weaker single-target heals than scoundrels and commandos

 

That's not really true. If a Sage is allowed to stand still and play turret healer, they can put up virtually identical ST healing numbers to a Commando or Scoundrel. The only time a Sage is truly disadvantaged is when they are forced to move around (which can sometimes happen on the shaclaw if those yellow circles decide they just don't like someone) because they only have 2 instant-cast heals, which are support mechanisms and not primary healing mechanisms for them (Rejuvenate, which is used before other heals are cast to buff/augment those heals, and Force Armor, which applies a rather lengthy debuff when it's applied so it doesn't do the job of mobile ST healing very effectively).

The first question that popped into my head was "was Incinerate getting interrupted?"

It's best for tanks to take that job too since the DPS often have to switch off the boss to kill adds.

 

Also, dps have some degree of responsibility in minimizing damage in there by eliminating adds quickly, not standing in fire, and placing the energy coils in good places so that people don't get trapped by them .