it was a bug, it was actually hard mode they fought. (was fixed last patch).

 

 

anyone who has seen the new nightmare mode, and can read this basic maths can tell straight off its broken.

 

and for people reading it and thinking its just a quick burst damage.... he throws mind traps out 1 after another (theres always going to be 1 up) so you cant just use CDs to burst it down, its got to be 2.2k SUSTAINED dps, which is impossible even if you had full rakata gear and BiS everything, using the best rotation (well, best you can figure out without a combat log).

 

im starting to think its going the way of wow, where they make it so stupidly overtuned that no one can do it, then nerf it and have all the raiding guilds clear it the same night as the patch.

It may be overtuned, but complaining about it being impossible 4 weeks in is just as ridiculous. When the entire raid has full Rakata in every possible slot and Columi mainhand weapons and it's still coming up miles short of the dps check...then it can be said it's impossible. Even if that's the case, there is a big difference between being massively overtuned and just overtuned. Even an 8 man raid isn't going to have that gear level after only 4 weeks.

It may be overtuned, but complaining about it being impossible 4 weeks in is just as ridiculous. When the entire raid has full Rakata in every possible slot and Columi mainhand weapons and it's still coming up miles short of the dps check...then it can be said it's impossible. Even if that's the case, there is a big difference between being massively overtuned and just overtuned. Even an 8 man raid isn't going to have that gear level after only 4 weeks.

it IS impossible, there are some top tier raiding guilds which already have the best gear in the game (its not hard as it drops in hard modes) and even the best dps in those groups cant sustain enough dps.

220k mind traps are so broken its stupid, i cant imagine they programmed it thinking someone could actually do it even after 6 months of gear farming. they WILL nerf it in the next few patches, as its just a way to slow the end game progression.

the OP even went and showed everyone the maths of how much dps is needed, yet people arnt seeing the over whelming facts that with the current "best" gear, its impossible (unless someone finds an exploit) and its not just "oh i need another 100 dps, if i tweak my rotation, or move skill points around i might be able to hit it" its flat out impossible, no tweaking of skills/rotations/mods will grant a 1000dps boost to all the dps and tanks in a raid.

im guessing from the maths, 80-120k mind traps would be balanced yet still very challenging (due to the enrage).

Thank you for posting this. I certainly do hope it gets addressed soon.

To be clear and agree with teh 20 posts above this one.

The math speaks for itself. The encounter is simply broken. Unless they plan for this encounter to be progression content after the first expansion it's broken.

This is not an opinion it is a mathematical fact. To have a chance you would need to fight 8 man NIGHT/SOA with a 16 man raid+ and 24+ for the 16 man.

I think the main problem is people have "WoW' on the brain. So let me clear something up with you.

ILEVEL 50 mods from ILLUM/BELSAVIS, ILEVEL 51 MODS from HARD MODES, ILEVEL 52 MODS from EV NORM

Now... take this into consideration, each mod listed above might be 1 AIM/CUN/STR/WILL per tier and maybe x2 power etc.

think about that. Now let me give you an analogy for you wow heads not grasping this.

it's essentially like getting full Justice Gear in WoW and then moving up to raid/valor gear and it being +1 stat more than the JP gear. What exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with that? Not much.

Now imagine that scenario and they double the health of a boss that was already tuned perfectly.

Get it now?

Also he seems to have multiple bugs. But you can at least play the russian roulette if he was tunned correctly.

I haven't done NM, but on normal has also plenty of bugs. For example on our normal kill he didn't lose the shield on an perfect impact. You can see it in our video (starts a few seconds before the bug):

http://youtu.be/ptb_093vkh4?hd=1&t=6m3s

it IS impossible, there are some top tier raiding guilds which already have the best gear in the game (its not hard as it drops in hard modes) and even the best dps in those groups cant sustain enough dps.

It probably is impossible currently, but my guild has cleared everything on hard modes already as well, and the chance that any guild has absolute best in slot gear aside from Nightmare Soa drops would mean they had to be clearing hard modes week 1 AND get even spread drops among their raid force. I highly doubt this has happened. That was my point. It would be nice to wait until a guild ACTUALLY was geared out in every possible way besides the drops they are trying to get off Nightmare Soa (which isn't going to help much anyways with Rakata weapons being bugged) to see how far off the numbers really are.

It probably is impossible currently, but my guild has cleared everything on hard modes already as well, and the chance that any guild has absolute best in slot gear aside from Nightmare Soa drops would mean they had to be clearing hard modes week 1 AND get even spread drops among their raid force. I highly doubt this has happened. That was my point. It would be nice to wait until a guild ACTUALLY was geared out in every possible way besides the drops they are trying to get off Nightmare Soa (which isn't going to help much anyways with Rakata weapons being bugged) to see how far off the numbers really are.

nightmare has the exact same loot table as normal, and even if they fixed rakata weapons to be lvl 62 it still wouldnt be enough to improve dps by 1000.

again, read the maths, this isnt a problem of a small dps boost from gear or fixing rotations. its IMPOSSIBLE currently unless theres a secret set bonus for full rakata gear + weapons which is "doubles your dps".

Well obviously you need to bring 8 dps. Then you'd only need to do 1575 dps, duh.

Jk, that sounds like it sucks.

Haven't looked into it much, but isn't there a max amount of mind-traps?

If so, you can let them stay in the trap, dps the traps down to low hp. And pop 2-3 of them at ones. Still seems undoable in phase 3 i guess..

Also what are the mobs inside the trap actually good for? maybe killing them gives a debuff/buff, or breaks the trap itself? Never tried that tbh.

Haven't looked into it much, but isn't there a max amount of mind-traps?

 

If so, you can let them stay in the trap, dps the traps down to low hp. And pop 2-3 of them at ones. Still seems undoable in phase 3 i guess..

 

Also what are the mobs inside the trap actually good for? maybe killing them gives a debuff/buff, or breaks the trap itself? Never tried that tbh.

My guild's attempted this fight on nightmare a few times. Assuming people aren't getting shocked to death by the lightning balls and/or exploded by them, our dps falls behind in phase 3. I've seen three people in the mind trap before we just exit area to reset so I don't know if more then that can be affected. I'll have to look at my buffs/debuffs again but don't believe your character gets anything for killing the mob that spawns inside the mind traps. Killing the mob never releases you from the trap either. If it's supposed to, it sure hasn't worked like that for my guild.

I'm hoping the 1.1 patch fixes it so that if you're in a mind trap when Soa dies, you're not stuck in a phase that you cannot see your ops group or his corpse. It's annoying to exit area then run back in when the speeder only drops off at the cavern exit. Rarely does it work as intended to drop us off right in front of Soa's temple.

This is a complaint about Soa on Nightmare mode.

 

This fight is currently impossible to do on either 8 or 16 man. Completely impossible. Irae AoD's kill (source) was actually tuned on Hardmode and for me Hardmode difficulty is fine. Infact it's tuned to be excellent on hardmode. The problem is specifically Nightmare mode.

 

Below is hard mathematics using the real values of Mind Traps on Nightmare mode, the ability CDs as well as the health of Soa, the Infernal One. Nerds beware.

 

The problem I'm talking about are the absolutely impossible DPS requirements necessary to kill the Mind Traps in phase 3. On 8 man Nightmare the Mind Traps have 220,000 health and have a 20 second timer between (18 sec cd + 2 sec cast on Soa). Assuming a standard Nightmare mode setup: 1 tank, 2 healers, 5 DPS:

 

220,000 / 20 (CD) = 11,000 group DPS over 20 seconds.

11,000 / 5 (number of DPS) = 2200

= 2200 DPS sustained for 20 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

The following numbers assume a DPS is never trapped - assuming a DPS is trapped:

 

220,000 / 20 (CD) = 11,000 group DPS over 20 seconds.

11,000 / 4 (number of DPS) = 2750

= 2750 DPS sustained for 20 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

Considering there are ALWAYS two times when a Mind Trap and Recovery phase interlink (ie: the recovery phase will occur as a Mind Trap has been spawned). This means for the 10 second period of Recovery (where Soa needs to be DPSd as you have 4 Recovery phases before enrage) you would need to kill the Mind Trap within 10 seconds before the next spawns:

 

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

22,000 / 5 (number of DPS) = 4400

= 4400 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

The following numbers assume a DPS is never trapped - assuming a DPS is trapped:

 

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

22,000 / 4 (number of DPS) = 5500

= 5500 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

Now, we move onto the DPS requirements to beat Soa before/during the 4th Recovery (Soa enrages 5 seconds before the 4th Recovery phase). This means you have 40 seconds maximum to deal 450,000 damage in 40 seconds:

 

450,000 / 40 = 11,250 group DPS over 40 seconds

11,250 / 5 = 2250

= 2250 DPS sustained for 4 x 10 second periods in order to "do your part".

 

Now, because of the Mind Trap mechanic we should assume the worst - a DPS is trapped during 2 of the 4 Recovery phases:

 

450,000 / 40 = 11,250 group DPS over 40 secons

11,250 / 4.5 = 2500

= 2500 DPS sustained for 4 x 10 second periods in order to compensate for the Mind Trap mechanic.

 

If we use the same maths for 16 man (note: in 16 man the boss has x 2 hp and Mind Traps have their CD cut in half so the same DPS would be needed assuming 2 tanks, 4 healers and 10 DPS - however - for this mathematical examination we will use 1 tank and 2 healers (thus 13 DPS):

 

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

22,000 / 13 (number of DPS) = 1692.3

= 1692.3 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

The following numbers assume a DPS is never trapped - assuming a DPS is trapped:

 

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

22,000 / 12 (number of DPS) = 1833.3

= 1833.3 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

Now the Mind Trap and Recovery mechanic happens on, again, 2 of the 4 Recovery phases so a raid group would ignore the Mind Trap > DPS Soa > Kill the Mind Trap as another one spawns requiring 440,000 damage from the 13 DPS over 10 seconds to stop getting overwhelmed.

 

440,000 / 10 (CD) = 44,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

44,000 / 13 (number of DPS) = 3384.6

= 3384.6 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

Assuming 1 DPS is trapped:

 

440,000 / 10 (CD) = 44,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

44,000 / 12 (number of DPS) = 3666.6

= 3666.6 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

Assuming 2 DPS are trapped:

 

440,000 / 10 (CD) = 44,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.

44,000 / 11 (number of DPS) = 4400

= 4400 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

 

Now because Soa has just double the health from Nightmare mode on 8 man, that's 900,000 health in 40 seconds.

 

900,000 / 40 = 22,500 group DPS over 40 seconds

22,500 / 13 = 1730.7

= 1730.7 DPS sustained for 4 x 10 second periods in order to "do your part".

 

--------------------------------------

 

I'm all for hard encounters. I enjoy hard encounters. However encounters which are mathematically impossible are not. This is just punishing for people who want to strive for world firsts. The numbers posted are simply impossible to achieve. Simply impossible. It wouldn't matter if we had addons to tell us our optimal DPS rotation, or addons to tell us the exact milisecond a Mind Trap spawned, or damage meters and combat logs. These numbers are just unrealistic to meet and it's a bloody disappointment.

 

Soa was fun on hardmode, on Nightmare mode it's not hard. It's not easy. It's impossible - which isn't fun, engaging or exciting. Note: I complained about the exact same thing when C'thun was impossible to beat.

4400 seems a little high, but not unrealistic based on some of the numbers I've seen. Just might have to class stack.

Just want to confirm everything the OP said. I was actually coming here to make a post on this myself.

Our Mind traps were showing up at 214,000 - not 220, or 240, but either way, it's all impossible. Those are the same numbers as on 16man, and even on 16 man that's just not doable.

To put it into perspective for some who don't believe - the first boss has about 600,000 hp. That means EACH mind trap on soa - which you have 20 seconds or less to kill (with between 1 and 3 DPS out of the picture) has 1/3rd of the health of the first boss. You have 5+ minutes to kill him.

Yes, obviously, things should be harder between Normal mode and Nightmare Mode, but you're not doing anything but trolling if you think this is intended.

Look at the difference between tionese and Rakata gear. At MOST it's a 20% dps increase (I'd call it more like 10%.) Having 80kish HP on these Mind traps would be HARD. It's a good challenge though. Having 214k though is just a joke.

As an aside, this fight is very fun on Hard Mode, and is the only fight so far that's remotely challenging. Hopefully future instances will be more like this particular encounter, where you don't 1 shot it on nightmare with a half geared PUG group on Christmas day, like we did with a couple of the bosses.

4400 seems a little high, but not unrealistic based on some of the numbers I've seen. Just might have to class stack.

Not sure what numbers you've seen, but I call BS. Even IF (not possible - not even remotely) someone could kill their add on infernal council in 30 seconds - that's only about 4,000 dps. That's not enough.

That's besides the point though, because even in absolute BiS gear I'd like to see someone do it in 60 seconds - 2,000 dps.

There's a difference between blowing all your 1.5 - 5min CDs and doing 5,000 dps for 3 seconds, and sustaining 5,000 dps. I doubt there's anyone who can even sustain 2,000 right now. Or ever, until a new tier is added.

4400 seems a little high, but not unrealistic based on some of the numbers I've seen. Just might have to class stack.

You do realize that to do 4400 dps you would have to crit 6600 damage every single GCD, right?

You do realize that to do 4400 dps you would have to crit 6600 damage every single GCD, right?

"So? If you waited 6 months for BIS that'd be easy. Stop trying to nerf content after only 3 weeks just because it's literally impossible"...

These forums make my day, sometimes. Other times, they make me want to cry.

Guess we wait for everyone (Who probably hasn't even stepped foot into EV or even hit lvl 50) to show us how you can do 6.6k crits every global, and how wrong we are.

"So? If you waited 6 months for BIS that'd be easy. Stop trying to nerf content after only 3 weeks just because it's literally impossible"...

 

These forums make my day, sometimes. Other times, they make me want to cry.

 

 

Guess we wait for everyone (Who probably hasn't even stepped foot into EV or even hit lvl 50) to show us how you can do 6.6k crits every global, and how wrong we are.

Even stacking everything I possibly have as a rage spec'd juggernaut, including stims, adrenals, pvp buffs, and expertise on a lvl 10 clothie with no expertise or anything, I can't hit 6.6k

I find some of the responses staggering.

Yeah, clearly trying to generate 4.4k sustained DPS is 'a gear problem'. It's a design fault. Nightmare mode mind Traps should have 50-60k hp max, 100k at a push.

not sure about 16man, but we just assumed it was bugged and 8 man was infact tuned for 16man.

we are just waiting for a fix to even bother trying again.

its so funny that some casuals state u need to farm gear to accomplish these dps numbers... i mean *** r u guys thinking? i have to be mentally retarded to think u can reach those numbers, this will never ever happen.

and 6months of farming? seriously??? i just raided 3ids and im already 4/5 rakata, going to acomplish the crafting rakata stuff pretty soon, so what are u talking about? if u state such random numbers as 6months (i cant stress this enough) u should just **** and leave this topic

that said i dunno why casuals who havent even seen the encounter are commenting on a topic like "soa nightmare tuning"