How exactly do you see a NPC being incorporated as transgender?

This is the key question.

So, to the people *asking* for this: How exactly are the writers supposed to show a trans NPC as being, well, you know, trans (without adding gratuitous and credibility-deficient dialogue elements)?

How someone is incorporated and represented in the game reminds me of something someone said; A vegan, a feminist and someone who is transgender walks into a bar. How do you know? They told you.

Inserting a transgender character there's no problems with that, just including it to be more diverse and having it forced on you is not. Look at all the failed movies that go too deep into identity politics lately.

The problem is that the majority of the transgender issues originate from society's reaction to something that shouldn't exist according to their forefathers' holy book of choice. The star wars universe should be beyond that, especially since there are several species with multiple or even just a single gender.

 

In-universe it should be a non-issue, so making it one doesn't really help the cause. Strive for it to become a non-issue in our society, what's the lesson from constructing a society that is thousands of years ahead, but still has a problem with it? It's pointless and will always be an issue?

 

Are we sure Lana is actually 100% human female and was born as such? After the fade-to-black, why would our character comment on any "abnormities" when the existence of people on a gender spectrum is not an issue?

It is less about a holy book and more about science. There are two biological genders male and female period. If you think you are something you are not it is called a delusion. If I went around saying I identified as a T-Rex and people should address me as Tyrant Lizard King or I will get offended and call you a Dinophope, people would simply think I am crazy. I personally don't care how someone wants to identify but they have NO RIGHT to expect me to go along with their mental delusions just so I don't offend them.

It is less about a holy book and more about science. There are two biological genders male and female period. If you think you are something you are not it is called a delusion. If I went around saying I identified as a T-Rex and people should address me as Tyrant Lizard King or I will get offended and call you a Dinophope, people would simply think I am crazy. I personally don't care how someone wants to identify but they have NO RIGHT to expect me to go along with their mental delusions just so I don't offend them.

You haven't read much into the actual issue of gender dysphoria, have you?

Claiming that trans issues are the result of someone's holy book is a reductive argument.

The real issue is, as someone pointed out, how trying to translate a real-world social issue into a Star Wars one doesn't always translate well.

I mean, with the technology available in Star Wars I doubt there are any trans people as we know them at all. You can probably pay someone a truckload of credits and undergo a complete and total gender change down to the cellular level. It'd entirely skip the middleman of trans culture. You'd just have some 14 year old girl with body dysmoprhia and a week later he's a 14 year old boy.

Frankly, I don't care what gender a character is.

I just want to

1. Save the galaxy (if playing LS Jedi) or:

2. Control the galaxy (if playing DS Sith).

In the words of the Borg: "Gender is irrelevant. You will be assimilated..."

(I know. Pleads guilty to " Inserting a Trek reference into a StarWars game....".)

Although I WOULD like to see some of the clothes that are supposed to be available to specific genders be available to both genders...… I've always wanted to put Skadge in a dancing girl costume...

Although I WOULD like to see some of the clothes that are supposed to be available to specific genders be available to both genders...… I've always wanted to put Skadge in a dancing girl costume...

Now that's just nasty.

Why? Just play as the gender you want. If you want your character to be trans, roleplay them as such, if someone doesn't like it, don't RP with them or put them on your ignore list. We don't need to know the sexuality or mental condition of random NPC's.

Probably because of pronouns

Probably because of pronouns

Why would that matter? I been called guy or some other male pronoun since I started playing MMO's. As people said they don't know unless you tell them. I don't see this as any different. You don't let it bother you especially since 90% you will not see them again.

They need to add a tickbox in the general options so when I am talking to another male I don't see the option of flirt.

Sure, but only if I get the option to turn off all opposite sex flirts. Hey, and while we're at it, I also want an option to turn off all dark/light side dialogue options since they don't apply to my pure dark/light side characters. Or, ya know, you could just ignore the options that don't apply to you like I've been doing since 2012.

I mean, with the technology available in Star Wars I doubt there are any trans people as we know them at all. You can probably pay someone a truckload of credits and undergo a complete and total gender change down to the cellular level. It'd entirely skip the middleman of trans culture. You'd just have some 14 year old girl with body dysmoprhia and a week later he's a 14 year old boy.

That's transsexuality, "born in the wrong body". As you wrote, that should be no issue at all.

But there are also genetic variants (additional chromosome XXY, varying chromosomes in the cells XX+XY, XXY+XY) and hormonal causes where babies are born with characteristics of both genders. The number of people with such "anomalies" is quite high (around 1:5000) for something that isn't supposed to exist, even according to "science" cited in a forum full of rather open-minded nerds.

All the things that were done in the past to hush up the issue (from drowning the baby and burning the mother and/or midwife on the stake, over locking them away in monasteries, to surgically correcting "nature's mistake" right after birth) maintained a society where that what cannot be doesn't seem to exist.

This shouldn't be a thing in the Star Wars universe, where even the most reactiionary jerks have too many alien "freaks" around them to care about whether a member of their own species belongs to one of the common gender variants. Without discrimination or even outright denial of their very existence, being biologically not 100% pure male or female in the Star Wars universe should bear no resemblance to the situation in our world.

That's transsexuality, "born in the wrong body". As you wrote, that should be no issue at all.

 

But there are also genetic variants (additional chromosome XXY, varying chromosomes in the cells XX+XY, XXY+XY) and hormonal causes where babies are born with characteristics of both genders. The number of people with such "anomalies" is quite high (around 1:5000) for something that isn't supposed to exist, even according to "science" cited in a forum full of rather open-minded nerds.

Minor correction. What you are talking about are intersex conditions, which can cause irregularities in sexual characteristics, such as Klinefelter Syndrome (47, XXY) that can cause gynecomastia in males, but does not, necessarily, affect gender. Sex is biological and is largely dictated by chromosomes. Further, the rate of intersexuality is a lot higher than 1:5000. Current estimates indicate that one in 1,666 births diverge from the typical 46, XX / 46, XY binary as published by Anne Fausto-Sterling of Brown University.

Gender is more complex than one's chromosomes. There are one's gender identity, their gender expression, and gender roles. Gender identity is all in the brain and it is how you see yourself. Brain imaging has shown there are structural differences between cisgender and transgender individuals of the same sex. Structurally, a trans-woman's brain is more similar to that of a cis-female than a cis-male, but it is not correct to say that a trans-woman is a female brain in a male body. Much more research is needed, but a link between genes and transgenderism (the state of being transgender) is becoming more evident. Which, of course, completely destroys all those "because science" arguments.

For completeness, gender expression is how one chooses to express themselves to the world. It's the clothes they wear, how they style their hair, etc. One's gender expression does not have to align with their identity and how one chooses to express themselves can change over time. Gender roles are purely societal. It's the thing that says blue is a boys colour and pink is a girls colour even though a century ago pink was considered a "masculine" colour. Gender roles can change over time and the strict binary gender norms of the western world, particularly of the US, are not global and have not been the norm throughout much of human history.

Please gods no, we don't need any more virtue signaling in games... that nonsense happens too much already.

When they force that kinda stuff in games to get woke points it's always done awkwardly and with as much subtlety as a punch in the nose. If they could incorporate it organically to the world/story that would be just fine, it's not the content itself that is problematic, at least for most folks. It's the way the devs so transparently value appearing woke over making their game actually good for their players that is the problem with this kind of garbage.

Why are people so obsessed with sex?

I don't know. Why do people keep confusing sex with gender?

Please gods no, we don't need any more virtue signaling in games... that nonsense happens too much already.

 

When they force that kinda stuff in games to get woke points it's always done awkwardly and with as much subtlety as a punch in the nose. If they could incorporate it organically to the world/story that would be just fine, it's not the content itself that is problematic, at least for most folks. It's the transparent way in which the devs value appearing woke over making their game actually good for their players that is the problem with this kind of garbage.

This old argument is ready to be shipped off to Shady Pines to share a room with Sophia. Those who want to deny inclusivity often fall back on claiming that [whatever is the subject of the discussion] should not be inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness because then it is forced, it is virtue signaling, they just want to be or appear "woke," or they are just kowtowing to the PC / snowflake / safe space / Millennial crowd. When BW added Lord Cytharat was that being inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness? On Oricon when they referenced a Trooper who kept having visions of killing his husband, was that inclusivity for the sake of inclusiveness? Or when they did that again in Fallen Empire when the Knight sends you a letter thanking you for letting him go home to his husband? There is no denying that some examples of inclusiveness are done rather poorly and without taste or sensitivity to the subject, but the claim that something should not be inclusive for the sake of inclusiveness is a red herring. It is an argument designed to distract from the topic. That topic being an obvious and blatant lack of inclusiveness. Let us stop pretending that inclusivity is a bad thing. Instead let us state our real argument. Either you want better representation with characters that are not caricatures, where their being queer is not the central facet to their character, or simply a trope used to tell the tragic tale of the poor unfortunate queer person (or the other oft used trope of the British accented bad guy), or the truth is you just don't want those characters in your media. You are okay that those characters exist, that those people exist (or maybe you're not), just so long as you do not have to acknowledge their existence.

The one thing I do agree with that others have said; I question not whether they should include a trans character but how they could and should incorporate a trans character where them being trans in not the central facet to their story. As with the Trooper on Oricon and Knight in Fallen Empire, them being trans should not be the sole reason for this character to exist. Their being trans needs to be treated as mundane as the queer Trooper and Knight.

Those who want to deny inclusivity

I have no problem with inclusion, as I even spelled out in my original comment, as long as it's organic to the game world/story. It's the shoehorned, caricature-like, type of "inclusion" that I have a problem with, and that isn't because I just "don't want to have to acknowledge the existence" of trans folks as you so boldly assume, it's simply because it lowers the quality of the game. That is all. If they want to add in well fleshed out, complex, characters who are also trans I have zero issue, but it doesn't help anyone, including trans folks, or the game if they add characters who's entire identity is being trans. And let's be realistic here, if they add trans characters because of this post, or other similar requests, they are by definition adding them for the sake of inclusion and they most likely won't be good characters... well written, dynamic characters are added to help tell the story, not prove to the internet that your inclusive enough. Now ofc there can be exceptions, it's possible to add characters to a story for solely inclusive reasons and still have them be will rounded and complex characters, but you don't have to spend much time looking to see that in practice that rarely is the case. The vast majority of characters in games/shows/movies that are there for inclusive reasons are laughably bad and drag the quality of the product down.

I guess my main beef is with lazy, one-dimensional, boring characters. And it's pretty undeniable that this thing of requiring every piece of media to be inclusive of every minority group is causing more one-dimensional characters to be added to cover rear-ends.

The funniest part is you say my argument is bad and needs retiring... yet you agree with almost all of my complaints on the issue. Caricatured versions of characters that only exits to be trans/gay/whatever isn't good for anyone or any cause. And hey, maybe I'm totally off base with my concern here, perhaps Bioware will flawlessly incorporate well-written and compelling trans characters in a way that doesn't degrade the quality at all. I sincerely hope so, and if so my entire argument can be ignored in regards to this game (tho I think it's still a problem in general with the entertainment industry, but that's another post). My point is simply that these type of inclusivity games, more often than not, results in more of the caricature types being shoehorned in.

I have no problem with inclusion, as I even spelled out in my original comment, as long as it's organic to the game world/story. It's the shoehorned, caricature-like, type of "inclusion" that I have a problem with, and that isn't because I just "don't want to have to acknowledge the existence" of trans folks as you so boldly assume, it's simply because it lowers the quality of the game. That is all. If they want to add in well fleshed out, complex, characters who are also trans I have zero issue, but it doesn't help anyone, including trans folks, or the game if they add characters who's entire identity is being trans. And let's be realistic here, if they add trans characters because of this post, or other similar requests, they are by definition adding them for the sake of inclusion and they most likely won't be good characters... well written, dynamic characters are added to help tell the story, not prove to the internet that your inclusive enough. Now ofc there can be exceptions, it's possible to add characters to a story for solely inclusive reasons and still have them be will rounded and complex characters, but you don't have to spend much time looking to see that in practice that rarely is the case. The vast majority of characters in games/shows/movies that are there for inclusive reasons are laughably bad and drag the quality of the product down.

 

I guess my main beef is with lazy, one-dimensional, boring characters. And it's pretty undeniable that this thing of requiring every piece of media to be inclusive of every minority group is causing more one-dimensional characters to be added to cover rear-ends.

 

The funniest part is you say my argument is bad and needs retiring... yet you agree with almost all of my complaints on the issue. Caricatured versions of characters that only exits to be trans/gay/whatever isn't good for anyone or any cause. And hey, maybe I'm totally off base with my concern here, perhaps Bioware will flawlessly incorporate well-written and compelling trans characters in a way that doesn't degrade the quality at all. I sincerely hope so, and if so my entire argument can be ignored in regards to this game (tho I think it's still a problem in general with the entertainment industry, but that's another post). My point is simply that these type of inclusivity games, more often than not, results in more of the caricature types being shoehorned in.

TLDR: the Character's gender or gender identity needs to be incidental and not feel "token". Best example I've seen so far in RPGs recently is Krem from Dragon Age: Inquisition. While not explicitly trans, she does identify as male, and it's really only a minuscule detail to the character that some players may even completely miss.

I think my only concern would be how to do it. Presumably to get it right, you'd want to have a character who has some sort of story about being transgender that comes out as part of who they are in some way. The only place I can think of where this game gets into that much detail (where a character is talking about aspects of their personal life) is in romances or crew companion conversations (and we're long past the detail of crew companions at this stage). So perhaps they could do a romance involving a transgender character. That would probably be the most effective way to work in the detail necessary, without misportraying it.

Though given how much they are neglecting at this point with their minimal resources, it's hard to imagine them working it in on top of everything else.

Still, if Bioware gets a chance to do more RPGs like this one, not just maintaining it, maybe we will see more exploration of those kind of areas at some point.

Have you played any recent Bioware games? They've been very progressive lately.

It's weird. SWTOR seems to have a very, erm... "old school" audience overall (at least, out of the vocal ones). But Bioware is one of the most progressive game companies out there and has been for as long as I've known.

I miss the good ol' days, when we were simple people, and we were just happy to have a protagonist and a plot, and some twists and betrayals...

Now we're deliberating over what gender they need to be, or don't need to be.

Have we gone too far?

I miss the good ol' days, when we were simple people, and we were just happy to have a protagonist and a plot, and some twists and betrayals...

Now we're deliberating over what gender they need to be, or don't need to be.

 

Have we gone too far?

Representing ALL PEOPLE is NOT too far