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30-54 bracket


DaedalusV

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Here you go Rob.

Im in legacy gear with lvl 33 purples or less.

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/SWTORFLEET1_zps18b09e65.png

 

 

When I enter PVP, I get a 273EXP boost and AIM boost to 1289(+177) and END boost to 1210(+225)

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/SWTORPVP1_zps5a9479eb.png

 

 

While this might be recruit level, the issue with 30-54 and 55 brackets is that the EXP boost on gear in the current system will severely outpace this bolster as the removal of the DR and the lack of gear upgrades until 55 will produce a large gear gap in the 30-54. The 55 bracket will suffer as well since the Partisan gear has more EXP and other stats than even elite WH does, let alone the Conqueror gear. I know eventually EWH will get to 55, but the initial shock might be too much for lower level or new entries to PVP to bare.

 

I am not sure how you solve this besides increasing the EXP boost. I understand you don't want to trivialize PVP gear, but if you are not geared in the current system, 2.0 could reintroduce some of the same gear issues we have now, where a fresh 50, without decent PVE gear, feels like a punching bag.

 

That doesn't look at all like the values I would expect, I would expect to see your Aim and End much closer to the 1900ish mark, and ~2k Expertise. Investigating what is going on, this *may* be a different symptom of our well known bolster bug, or it might be something else entirely.

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That doesn't look at all like the values I would expect, I would expect to see your Aim and End much closer to the 1900ish mark, and ~2k Expertise. Investigating what is going on, this *may* be a different symptom of our well known bolster bug, or it might be something else entirely.

 

He would see around 2k expertise from level 33 gear with no expertise on it? Surely at 55 this bolster would not be like this or else PvE Raid gear as it is in 2.0 with its significantly higher stats will out due PvP gear since it will be bolstered to almost the same amount of expertise.

 

If that's the case prepare to lose a lot of PvPers, Endgame PvE gear should not be on par with PvP gear in "PvP" especially now that stat wise our PvP gear is useless in endgame PVE or close to useless.

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That doesn't look at all like the values I would expect, I would expect to see your Aim and End much closer to the 1900ish mark, and ~2k Expertise. Investigating what is going on, this *may* be a different symptom of our well known bolster bug, or it might be something else entirely.

 

I understand that the new Bolster is in its nascent stages and still PTS, but it sure seems like you guys are expecting it to do a lot...maybe leaning on it too much.

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He would see around 2k expertise from level 33 gear with no expertise on it? Surely at 55 this bolster would not be like this or else PvE Raid gear as it is in 2.0 with its significantly higher stats will out due PvP gear since it will be bolstered to almost the same amount of expertise.

 

If that's the case prepare to lose a lot of PvPers, Endgame PvE gear should not be on par with PvP gear in "PvP" especially now that stat wise our PvP gear is useless in endgame PVE or close to useless.

 

I agree, I'm confused, why would lvl 33 purples boost to better than war hero in endgame (lvl 55) PvP? If you're playing in that bracket you should be working for that gear unless my lvl 55 PVP gear will also be bolstered in operations and flashpoints? But then why should I bother trying to get both sets as someone who enjoys pvp and pve?

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He would see around 2k expertise from level 33 gear with no expertise on it? Surely at 55 this bolster would not be like this or else PvE Raid gear as it is in 2.0 with its significantly higher stats will out due PvP gear since it will be bolstered to almost the same amount of expertise.

 

If that's the case prepare to lose a lot of PvPers, Endgame PvE gear should not be on par with PvP gear in "PvP" especially now that stat wise our PvP gear is useless in endgame PVE or close to useless.

 

I am assuming the MAIN/END is checked prior to an EXP boost. If they meet a certain threshold, little or no boost is given. So what would happen is top end PVE gear would get no MAIN/END bolster, and an EXP bolster only. The EXP bolster would still be lower than what would be possible in PvP gear. Even the top notch PvE gear will probably only net a 300-400MAIN delta, so with a lower EXP bolster say 1800(around 2000 in my book), an UW geared player would still be at a disadvantage versus a PVP geared player, but above a undergeared because of stronger secondary stats.

 

Armor rating must come into play as well. I see stats being bolstered, not armor rating, so my legacy armor reduction is significantly lower than a top geared (PVE) LvL55. That is why I suggested that armor rating on PVP gear is increased to match PVE.

 

Overall we need to keep in mind that in the new system even a 100EXP difference gives a considerable amount of advantage, so "around 2k" is most likely a number below the max possible, which means PVP gear would still hold the edge. My aim would be the get the delta between bolstered EXP to max EXP(via gear) around 5%. That is putting you in the 1900EXP range (which is what I think is the Devs goal) if you have 0EXP and decrease that number as you gain more EXP from your gear.

 

I think everyone could live with that, we just need to tweak the cutoff points.

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I am not a fan of the bracket system... it is already hard enough for people to get into a warzone as it is. but With the current bracket i get killed by low levels all the time so i dont have a problem with the current one. now what i think it should be is that the current system and then the 50-55 would be better, since it would pull more into the top level of the warzones and give it the same feel and then later down the line just give it more room. thats less work. and good competition.:rak_01::rak_03::rak_04::rak_02:
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He would see around 2k expertise from level 33 gear with no expertise on it? Surely at 55 this bolster would not be like this or else PvE Raid gear as it is in 2.0 with its significantly higher stats will out due PvP gear since it will be bolstered to almost the same amount of expertise.

 

If that's the case prepare to lose a lot of PvPers, Endgame PvE gear should not be on par with PvP gear in "PvP" especially now that stat wise our PvP gear is useless in endgame PVE or close to useless.

 

The amount of expertise and stat you gain is based on the rating of the items you currently have versus the rating that we are bolstering a player towards. If you have items above that target (for example, from high end raid gear), you get much less (or in some cases no) benefit from the bolster.

 

Consider it this way (and it isn't quite this simple of a , but it should help illustrate our goal): Bolster defines the floor of power we want players to be in PvP and if you are below that floor, we lift you up. We have the floor currently set right around non-augmented Elite War Hero level of power.

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That doesn't look at all like the values I would expect, I would expect to see your Aim and End much closer to the 1900ish mark, and ~2k Expertise. Investigating what is going on, this *may* be a different symptom of our well known bolster bug, or it might be something else entirely.

 

lol so whats the point of having pvp gear on level 55? if you get bolstered to pretty much the same stats with pve gear...

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lol so whats the point of having pvp gear on level 55? if you get bolstered to pretty much the same stats with pve gear...

 

"pretty much" /= "exactly the same"

 

Even a 5% advantage is worth getting. Some incentive, but no derpzones. Plus you can acquire PvP gear faster than top tier PvE gear, especially with the comm cap and lockouts (assuming you don't buy any crafted items).

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I understand that the new Bolster is in its nascent stages and still PTS, but it sure seems like you guys are expecting it to do a lot...maybe leaning on it too much.

 

It's a great thing to lean on, if it's done right. Think about it. Instead of starting at recruit-level when you hit 55 and getting slaughtered by every pro and noob you fight, you still have decent stats. Your stats don't start increasing until you've bought the first tier though. This is actually a very well-designed response to the rock-hard entrance into level 50 PvP in the current live game.

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Holy crap! :eek:

 

At launch, we had a 10-50 bracket and it was horrible for anyone below 50!

If we didn't have a 50 on our team back then, we would quit the wz because we simply couldn't win - bolster or not.

The 10-50 bracket was scrapped about 4 week later because no bolster can make up for the lack of leveled abilities!

 

As expected, Bioware learned nothing and is about to fail yet again! Sad. :(

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... the power differential between a fresh level 30 player and a current 50 player in augmented EWH gear being inside the same bracket. Our new bolster system should make those players reasonably competitive statistically...

 

If bolster will make it comparable, does the point of earning EWH become a tree in a forest?

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Holy crap! :eek:

 

At launch, we had a 10-50 bracket and it was horrible for anyone below 50!

If we didn't have a 50 on our team back then, we would quit the wz because we simply couldn't win - bolster or not.

The 10-50 bracket was scrapped about 4 week later because no bolster can make up for the lack of leveled abilities!

 

As expected, Bioware learned nothing and is about to fail yet again! Sad. :(

 

Wrong. Bolster isn't like it was before. It's been stated that bolster ups you to the equivilent of un-augmented EWH gear. A full EWH 50 isn't going to have much of an advantage against a level 30 in purples of his level.

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Wrong. Bolster isn't like it was before. It's been stated that bolster ups you to the equivilent of un-augmented EWH gear. A full EWH 50 isn't going to have much of an advantage against a level 30 in purples of his level.

 

Reading not a strong suit, I presume? Or will bolster also give us 24 LEVELS OF MISSING ABILITIES?

 

God, I swear these fanboys never learn...

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Wrong. Bolster isn't like it was before. It's been stated that bolster ups you to the equivilent of un-augmented EWH gear. A full EWH 50 isn't going to have much of an advantage against a level 30 in purples of his level.

 

Yeah, except a full 51 has their full skillset, including the new stupid ones like saber reflect, teleport, electro net, etc. The 51+ levellers have new anti-ccs now. So basically, the 30-50 folks wont have the same cc effectiveness in the CC game with the 51+ folks. And thats huge, seeing how those 30-50 folks do not have their full skillset, as cc is needed. And a blind monkey with no hands knows that cc is the king of PvP in stun wars..

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lol this new bolster / combined bracket does not sound good, should be to 49 then 50-54 imo

 

well, dont know, but ewh should be > any sub 50 gear , otherwise whats the point, at this point level 54 in ewh 50s will be worse off than a 30 in fresh purples who dont have any expertise, is fail

 

also no bolster of course for the 50-54 (or minor stat bolster here) or 55 bracket, otherwise, what is the point in gearing at all..... this is an mmorpg and players should be responsible for earning their things not having their hands held the entire way

Edited by therealeasy
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Reading not a strong suit, I presume? Or will bolster also give us 24 LEVELS OF MISSING ABILITIES?

 

God, I swear these fanboys never learn...

 

We have initially chosen 30 as our new break point because that is the level in which players start having complete combat rotations

 

Regardless of abilities, a level gap of 24 is better than a gap of 44. Smear your short-sighted narrow-minded opinion on another thread.

Edited by idnewton
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My thoughts on this are:

 

If you're gonna stat bolster at 55 you might as well do away with pvp gear. Make the focus of the game to level and accumulate skill. The comms gained are for custom pvp gear for looks. This way all players will live and die on ability to play and unlocked skills.

 

Otherwise make only 2 pvp groups. 50 to 55 with expertise gear users. 10 to 49 lowby pvp.

 

Just my 2cents.

Edited by Le_Spiff
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Actually, I had an idea to keep the brackets how they are (10-29, 30-54, 55) But to remove relative bolster entirely from the level 10-29 bracket and the level 30-54 bracket. Make bolster a constant instead of a dependant. Simply set every stat to a certain value. Some values would be shared, such as min/max weapon damage or alacrity. But, for example, while sorcerers would have the same amount of base power and critical rating and surge rating as a sniper, or a marauder, they would not have the same amount as tanks. Tanks would not have power but instead would have defensive stats, etc.

 

This system would fix nearly everything. Lowbie PvP is not competitive, it is a fun way to level and thus because it is not constantly competitive like endgame PvP, all stats should be the same regardless of gear (you could even not wear any at all, besides weapons for attacks). Obviously, if you have bonuses to certain stats in your spec, these will take effect in the warzone.

 

In order for this system to work, a few potential issues would have to be adressed:

While the bolster buff is active (in other words, while in a warzone), disallow the effects of gear. This is so that players cannot do... pretty much what they're doing right now with the bolster bug. Unequipping and reequipping gear. There would be default stat values, plus whatever the skill tree gives.

 

The system would not be very hard to create. All classes should have the same amount of accuracy, and any class with a tanking tree is a class with 'Stances' (Powertech has Ion Cylinder, Juggernaut has Soresu Form, Assassins have Dark Charge) Thus, if a class is using, say, Surging Charge, it would be given DPS stats. If it switches to Dark Charge, the DPS stat bonuses are taken away and he is given Tank stat bonuses. This raises another question: will players exploit this to simply change forms whenever a situation gets tough? Well, technically players can already do this, but not only is the Tank form junk without a shield, there are already safety measures in place to discourage this. When assassins change forms, it costs 100 force (all of their bar, unless they are using Force-Mystic shells or Deception spec). When Powertechs switch, it has an activation time. When Juggernauts switch, it removes all of their built up rage points.

 

Bioware, this is the true way to create balanced lowbie PvP. I, for one, have always dreamed of PvP which actually revolves around skill and not gear.

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lol this new bolster / combined bracket does not sound good, should be to 49 then 50-54 imo

 

well, dont know, but ewh should be > any sub 50 gear , otherwise whats the point, at this point level 54 in ewh 50s will be worse off than a 30 in fresh purples who dont have any expertise, is fail

 

also no bolster of course for the 50-54 (or minor stat bolster here) or 55 bracket, otherwise, what is the point in gearing at all..... this is an mmorpg and players should be responsible for earning their things not having their hands held the entire way

 

my sentiments exactly

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Actually, I had an idea to keep the brackets how they are (10-29, 30-54, 55) But to remove relative bolster entirely from the level 10-29 bracket and the level 30-54 bracket. Make bolster a constant instead of a dependant. Simply set every stat to a certain value. Some values would be shared, such as min/max weapon damage or alacrity. But, for example, while sorcerers would have the same amount of base power and critical rating and surge rating as a sniper, or a marauder, they would not have the same amount as tanks. Tanks would not have power but instead would have defensive stats, etc.

 

This system would fix nearly everything. Lowbie PvP is not competitive, it is a fun way to level and thus because it is not constantly competitive like endgame PvP, all stats should be the same regardless of gear (you could even not wear any at all, besides weapons for attacks). Obviously, if you have bonuses to certain stats in your spec, these will take effect in the warzone.

 

In order for this system to work, a few potential issues would have to be adressed:

While the bolster buff is active (in other words, while in a warzone), disallow the effects of gear. This is so that players cannot do... pretty much what they're doing right now with the bolster bug. Unequipping and reequipping gear. There would be default stat values, plus whatever the skill tree gives.

 

The system would not be very hard to create. All classes should have the same amount of accuracy, and any class with a tanking tree is a class with 'Stances' (Powertech has Ion Cylinder, Juggernaut has Soresu Form, Assassins have Dark Charge) Thus, if a class is using, say, Surging Charge, it would be given DPS stats. If it switches to Dark Charge, the DPS stat bonuses are taken away and he is given Tank stat bonuses. This raises another question: will players exploit this to simply change forms whenever a situation gets tough? Well, technically players can already do this, but not only is the Tank form junk without a shield, there are already safety measures in place to discourage this. When assassins change forms, it costs 100 force (all of their bar, unless they are using Force-Mystic shells or Deception spec). When Powertechs switch, it has an activation time. When Juggernauts switch, it removes all of their built up rage points.

 

Bioware, this is the true way to create balanced lowbie PvP. I, for one, have always dreamed of PvP which actually revolves around skill and not gear.

 

If you want to discuss a new way of handling the bolstering system like that, please use the suggestions forum or start a new thread about it. Your idea has merit and could use it's own thread. This thread is mainly about how the developers have chosen to divide the brackets using the bolstering system they have chosen to use for 2.0 I think a rewrite of the system would be time consuming and not possible for a 2.0 launch.

 

Wrong. Bolster isn't like it was before. It's been stated that bolster ups you to the equivilent of un-augmented EWH gear. A full EWH 50 isn't going to have much of an advantage against a level 30 in purples of his level.

 

Here's Rob's reply for your convenience.

 

Hey gang, let me see if I can bring some clarity to the situation. We do indeed have a new level of "Recruit" that we are bolstering towards, that is based on the new 55 gear. We believe that this bolster level will allow players to complete with any possible gear combination in the 30 - 54 bracket. Obviously we've had a few bumps in the road on PTS regarding current bolster, but we should be getting that fixed up soon , and everyone can get back to the business of PvP.

 

Thanks for everyone's feedback, not just on this but on everything, it is really helping us make a better game.

 

And another one concerning the new bolstering system:

In a major upcoming Game Update, everything changes, woo! Expertise still touches the same 3 functions (damage out, damage in, and healing out), but is no longer is a diminished return value, you get the same increase in power for the same increase in expertise, regardless of going from 0 to 20 or 2000 to 2020. We've also cranked up just how much expertise enhances each of these functions, so having good expertise is more important than ever. Additionally, expertise is no longer a stat that will grow throughout a tier of items, all PvP gear will generate the same total of expertise (caveat: This statement only applies starting with the new gear in the new update. Previous PvP gear will not quite have the fully intended expertise totals).

 

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.

 

 

All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

 

Thanks for listening!

(the preface concerning how they handle bolster in 1.7 has been edited out for brevity.)

 

L-RANDLE has found that bolster on the test center doesn't do what they intend it to do (numbers doesn't match) This may be related to the known bug in the system people misuse for funzies. (human nature, meh)

 

Rob has been very active in this thread, so I urge people to keep it alive with posts that vaguely stay on topic (where should the brackets divide in 2.0 according to us, the players)

There's a post from Rob in this thread stating that the divide at 30 isn't set in stone. So let's get some opinions on the table (preferably on topic)

Edited by DaedalusV
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  • 2 weeks later...

Maybe I missed it, or maybe it was so obvious to everyone else that they didn't even have to say anything. But what I really wonder about is how the bolster will handle fully BiS PvE players who join a WZ?

 

Right now there is a definite difference in stats between EWH and Dread Guard or whatever the level 63 PvE gear is. If players could wear that gear with better stats and then get their expertise bolstered up to even just recruit level, they would be a force to reckon with right now. From what I see in the expansion, PvE gear is getting SIGNIFICANTLY better than PvP gear. To the point where even without expertise the hilts and barrels from top PvE gear looks BiS already for PvP. Maybe the armorings too. Also in the expansion the expertise gap between top of the line BiS and normal recruit looks much lower.

 

TLDR - If PvE players come to a Warzone in full raid gear, will they be bolstered up expertise wise and still have better main stats too?

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It will handle it by....

 

.......them still being PvE players. The so called PvP'ers are bad at this game, I don't think we have to worry about the dragon slayers.

 

^This, also the current bolster system only gives them a laughable 800 expertise, my WH gear gives me about 1700ish, but I haven't updated my gear to include those expertise crystals n stuff.

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