Bingo Beni. Could not have said it better myself.

I can see why people would consider OR jedi to be superior to PT jedi since PT jedi have more real combat experience since in real life someone with firsthand experience will always beat someone who read about it in a book or sparred with it, with no real firsthand experience.

 

That being said, this isnt real life, this is star wars, and during the era of peace the jedi were able to get overall stronger in the force and improve on their lightsaber combat by deepening their connection to the force. As earlier stated by Beni, Jedi Master Wylett had been hibernating in an ice cave on Hoth for decades deepening his connection to the force, and when he emerged he became vastly more powerful.

 

Also while the jedi became stronger as a whole, they didnt become overwhelmingly stronger to the point where someone like Jaric Kaedan in his prime would get easily destroyed by an average jedi knight in the PT. Where the OR had few great masters (Revan, Meetra, Kaedan, Satele (maybe she hasnt beat anyone noteworthy) the PT had many great masters (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Dooku, basically the entire PT jedi high council and then some. This is a testament to how the jedi have gotten stronger as a whole.

I can see why people would consider OR jedi to be superior to PT jedi since PT jedi have more real combat experience since in real life someone with firsthand experience will always beat someone who read about it in a book or sparred with it, with no real firsthand experience.

 

That being said, this isnt real life, this is star wars, and during the era of peace the jedi were able to get overall stronger in the force and improve on their lightsaber combat by deepening their connection to the force. As earlier stated by Beni, Jedi Master Wylett had been hibernating in an ice cave on Hoth for decades deepening his connection to the force, and when he emerged he became vastly more powerful.

An interesting point, I looked into Wylett but didn't find any information on him. Does anyone have some Wookiepedia knowledge concerning him?

Also while the jedi became stronger as a whole, they didnt become overwhelmingly stronger to the point where someone like Jaric Kaedan in his prime would get easily destroyed by an average jedi knight in the PT. Where the OR had few great masters (Revan, Meetra, Kaedan, Satele (maybe she hasnt beat anyone noteworthy) the PT had many great masters (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Dooku, basically the entire PT jedi high council and then some. This is a testament to how the jedi have gotten stronger as a whole.

You list four PT Era Jedi by name, and then say the "entire PT Jedi high council"... I could just as easily say that any of the dozens on knights we see fighting in the Jedi Temple against Malgus' invasion force, or the hundreds who are said to have taken part in any given battle were, by default, more experienced and skilled in lightsaber combat since they are constantly fighting against lightsaber wielding opponents.

 

Narratives aside (and very good ones may I say!) allow me to reiterate a few points and pose some new ones, rather than counter the host of arguments that have been made in my absence.

Well, I didn't just raise those arguments for fun (well, actually I did, since this is Star Wars). Take a moment to look over my post at the top of page three, particularly the bits about Cin Drallig and sparring practice with lightsabers, as I feel they get close to the heart of what's being discussed here.

 

What is important though is to see the connection between the Force and lightsaber combat, the Force is an intrinsic component of the lightsaber, you cannot simply say they are entirely different realms. As Wookieepedia says, it is impossible to achieve true mastery over the lightsaber if you lack a strong connection to the Force.

Wookiepedia does not say that. The precise phrasing I found is this:

It was difficult to master for a number of reasons, one of them being that all of the weight a lightsaber had was in its hilt. It had been said that only a Force-sensitive individual could completely master lightsaber combat.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

This implies that Force sensitivity is required to be aware of the nuances of handling a lightsaber, but does not at all state that the strength of one's connection to the Force is tied to lightsaber skills.

 

And the lightsaber forms themselves rely on strength in the Force e.g. Ataru and Form V. Dun moch is also evidence of this, it was often used by the Sith to unbalance their Jedi opponents by encouraging them to embrace their emotions

You raise a good point here, but it actually fits in neatly with what I was saying earlier (post at the top of page 3). The Force obviously confers many advantages when used properly in combat, and Ataru is great evidence of this. The acrobatics are enabled by the use of the Force, and the blaster bolt deflection of Soresu and Shien are also examples of how the sensitivity to the Force allows a Jedi to perceive things that others cannot. Note that this is a product of sensitivity and awareness, not necessarily raw Force channeling abilities.

 

As for Dun Moch, I think that's just good psychological warfare in any situation. The Jedi should develop an equivalent, because whoever unbalances their opponent is naturally going to have the edge.

 

Lets also consider that it is through meditation and serenity that one draws closer, and therefore more powerful, in the Force. The PT Jedi Order experienced 2000 years of peace, in which they could bring themselves closer and closer to the Force and become more powerful because of it. As such they can augment their prowess with the lightsaber with their strength in the Force.

You say 2000, but only 1000 years passed between Ruusan and the Clone Wars. A typo, perhaps?

Regardless, these years did not make each successive generation of Jedi exponentially stronger in the Force. The people being recruited would still have the same random aptitude for the Force that past generations did, what varies is the level and focus of their training. Every generation of Jedi trained during these peaceful days will have extensive instruction in the philosophies of the Force, and will spend time meditating. This will make him better at using the Force, and because of this it seems that Ataru became quite a popular sparring form since it naturally played to the use of the Force.

 

The argument could even be made that sparring with Ataru would be encouraged during the peaceful years because it did not focus purely on sword skills but pushed the Jedi to master their control over the Force as well. However, it is a fatally inefficient form when compared with more dueling-centric forms like Djem So and Juyo, which would have little to no practical requirement in this era.

 

Another thing to consider is the focus of their combat training. There are no Sith remaining in the galaxy. The Jedi Order believes them extinct, and while they theoretically guard against their return, there is no eminent threat from lightsaber or Force-wielding adversaries (aside from isolated incidents of rogue Jedi, etc.)

 

Soresu flourishes in this time period, since it focuses on defending against blasters. Almost every fight that a Jedi would find himself in while resolving disputes during this time period would require him to guard against blasters, rather than melee combatants. So this is the only form that is actually used in the field regularly by the Jedi.

 

Consider also the nature of the Clone Wars. The Jedi fought against battle droids, mercenaries, and blaster-wielding allies of the CIS. Little to no lightsaber combat, except for the few isolated duels that the main characters fought from time to time. Compare this to any given battle in the OR Era, where dozens, if not hundreds, of Jedi and Sith clashed in lethal combat.

 

We also cannot disregard the effect war has on teachings. Ventessel brings up 'rotations' etc. to deal with such problems, but he does not take into account a major factor: death. War takes countless lives, many of which would have been Jedi Knights skilled with the lightsaber, how can a Jedi train new padawans if they are dead? During the Great Sith War many of the Order's most skilled duelists were killed or indisposed e.g. Ulic Qel Droma, Exar Kun, Cay Qel-Droma, Vodo-Siosk Baas and many others. And lets not forget the loss of the Great Jedi Library on Ossus, at least half on the Jedi teachings were destroyed, many of which likely encompassed lightsaber combat. Then we have the Mandalorian Wars, a huge portion of the Jedi broke away from the Order, likely many of them were Jedi Guardians and Sentinels. All were lost during the Mandalorian Wars, they either died or fell to the dark side and were later killed in the Jedi Civil War. During that period the Dantooine Jedi Enclave was razed, more teachings lost. And then we have the Great Galactic War which saw the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the loss of countless Jedi Knights. During the Cold War Jun Seros, Jaric Kaedan and Orgus Din were all killed, and that was just during the Cold War - can you imagine the loss of powerful Jedi Knights during the war itself?

You raise a valid point, but perhaps you carry it too far. Certainly, in each war many Jedi are killed. Some of those who died were experienced combatants. However, the ones who lived would also have practical combat knowledge, and one battle-hardened Jedi can provide valuable training to many Knights and Padawans. So the death of many prominent duelists does not necessarily mean that no one passed on the lessons of war to the newer Jedi.

The Jedi Civil war produced many extremely skilled duelists, since they were forced to hone their lightsaber skills in combat. Things did get pretty bad after the First Jedi Purge, but they recovered over the 300 years between then and the Great Galactic War, and had 28 years to really get the hang of fighting psychotic, lightsaber wielding Sith. 28 Years of constant dueling and so forth would really force the Jedi to practice only the most effective combat techniques, since both sides are constantly improving their technique and adjusting their training regimens over the course of the war. And while many experienced Knights were killed during the Cold War, and again during the renewed conflict, many more would have gained battle experience and become formidable fighters.

If anything, the loss of teachings when the temples were sacked would have hindered the consulars more than the guardians. You can pretty quickly copy down notes on the combat styles of current Jedi, who are experienced with dueling. However, remaking holocrons detailing Force techniques and philosophical treatises could prove impossible unless Jedi archivists happened to remember exactly what was stored in them.

 

All this accumulated with the next generation of Jedi being completely without substantial teaching in the Force and in lightsaber combat, so all that combat experience built up in periods of war was lost and never utilized. Do you recall Mical? When he came of age their were no Jedi left to train him, think how many other potential Jedi would have been lost and how many Jedi would have be incompetently trained by the few Consulars and Historians that remained.

Mical is a specific example from the immediate aftermath of the First Jedi Purge. Yes, things were rough right then for the Jedi Order, but they got back on their feet. I'm referring to the Jedi who lived during the wars, and in the generations immediately following such conflicts as Exar Kun's Wars, the Mandalorian Wars, and the Great Galactic War.

 

War has a tendency to seriously damage the population of skilled lightsaber duelists, making the next generation comparatively weak. Whereas in a period of sustained peace, this is not a problem. Knowledge is gained, retained and passed on.

War creates those duelists in the first place. The fact that some of them do not survive is simply a bi-product of their creation during duels that occur within the war's battles. In a period of sustained peace, that experience is lost when no Jedi who have combat experience are left.

 

Finally we are giving too much value to first hand combat experience, yes it is important but once that experience is retained it doesn't have to be lost, it can be preserved and passed down to generations to come. Take the lightsaber forms, they flourished in a period of war were Jedi could test themselves and learn from experience. But once these forms were lain down and preserved, there was no longer any need for combat experience. Because that experience can essentially be attained simply by learning a form. A Jedi can learn how to deflect blaster bolts, not by engaging in war, but by learning Soresu. A Jedi can learn how to fight a lightsaber wielding opponent by learning Makashi. Take Dooku, he had never and never has fought in a war, and yet he is immensely skilled with the lightsaber and has defeated many lightsaber wielding opponents.

Ah, this is essentially the premise that I am contesting. I believe Cin Drallig is a perfect example of how academic study of the lightsaber forms is no match for practical combat experience. Dooku is not necessarily a great example of your thinking, either. The majority of his duels were against similarly inexperienced Jedi, and he gained experience from killing those Jedi, further honing his skills. Academic study can take you so far, but you hit a wall eventually, and only combat experience can truly develop your instincts for dueling.

 

Blaster bolt practice is the exception here, since a training droid can fire at a Jedi in near-perfect simulation of actual gunfire. However, recall that training is still a controlled scenario, with stun bolts. In an actual battle, the chaos and confusion could easily overwhelm an inexperienced Jedi. I will state that this is one area in which the PT Jedi, at least near the end of the Clone Wars, would certainly have been the equals of the OR Jedi, due to the overwhelming tendency of the PT Jedi's enemies to use blasters. However, they were fighting droids for the most part, which are markedly inferior to live soldiers (except droidekas... those are just trouble all over), so OR Jedi who are used to engaging Sith soldiers, etc. would have to be even more alert to survive against thinking opponents (most droids cannot be considered "thinking" enemies, they have programming and some are better than others).

 

So in that sense the PT Jedi Order has just as much 'combat experience' as the OR Jedi Order did, they have all the benefits of war experience and none of the negatives. The fact that many if not most Jedi survived the Clone Wars is testament to this.

No, the PT Jedi Order has approximately zero combat experience at the start of the Clone Wars. They do have experience against blasters, which is mainly what they face during the Clone Wars, so it makes sense that many of them fared decently during an era when none of their adversaries were known to employ lightsabers or melee weapons (excluding General Grievous and MagnaGuards, but they are a rare exception).

What the PT Order has in their advantage however is a closer affinity to the Force, which does - and I cannot stress this enough - have a significant impact of lightsaber prowess, the two are inseparable. In a nutshell the PT Order is all the more stronger the OR Jedi Order because Jedi thrive in peace and are weakened by war - that is the way of the Force.

The PT Jedi's knowledge of the Force (on average) is more developed, true. However, knowledge of the Force is not applicable to all lightsaber forms. Some forms, such as Ataru, rely on strength in the Force to perform acrobatics. Soresu relies on the Jedi's awareness of his surroundings (derived from his sensitivity, not necessarily his strength in the Force. See the Wookiepedia quote above).

Edited February 23, 2013 by Ventessel

You make a good point about Drallig, however lets also consider that by that point as Darth Vader he had become immensely powerful. Before the war he was already a very formidable lightsaber duelist able to go toe-to-toe with Count Dooku, whom he defeated aboard the Invisible Hand. And Dooku was far superior to Drallig in terms of skill with a lightsaber, he was second only to Yoda and Windu.

 

Now you could attribute that growth in power to the Clone Wars but as you say fighting hordes of battle droids would have done little to hone is lightsaber skill, only Ventress, Dooku and Grievous provided any sort of challenge - and he did not confront them frequently. We can just as much attribute his growth in power to practice and study. He also learned to augment emotions into his power, rather than let them unbalance him as other Jedi had. And when he finally embraced the dark side his skill in Form V became immensely amplified.

 

And concerning the other arguments you brought up

 

Darkondo refrains from listing them all in detail for good reason, because there were so many. Just look them up on Wookieepedia, they were all renowned and highly skilled lightsaber duelists:

Mundi was an extremely skilled fighter with the Jedi weapon.

Plo Koon was a powerful Jedi Master and the mysterious Sith Lord Darth Maul considered him to be one of the greatest Jedi warriors of his time though they never dueled one another...He was also a master of the fifth form of lightsaber combat, Djem So/Shien. Master Plo was considered amongst the most skilled swordsman in the Jedi Order, being capable of fending off even Asajj Ventress while being encumbered by a broken arm

Having trained as a Jedi Guardian, Saesee Tiin possessed exceptional prowess with a lightsaber

A master practitioner of Shii-Cho, Kit Fisto was considered to be one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order.

However, he was primarily known as a master lightsaber duelist. Mace Windu himself, considered one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history, found Kolar's abilities considerable.

Obi-Wan Kenobi was one of the greatest lightsaber duelists of his time...Ten years study into Form III resulted in an advanced skillset, and Kenobi became one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history...In addition to Soresu, Kenobi would also master and incorporate elements of Shii-Cho and Niman into his fighting style, as well as appearing to have been well versed in the art of Jar'Kai dual-blade combat

Shaak Ti was well versed in several forms of lightsaber combat. Considered one of the finest swordswomen of the era, her colleagues regarded her as one of the most cunning warriors of the day.

Luminara Unduli possessed power that very few Jedi were able to overcome. She had amazing lightsaber skills, as she was a master of Form III and had some skill in Form V. Not only were her lightsaber skills superb, but she had also trained herself to become so incredibly flexible that she could easily twist to evade almost any attack that she did not block with her green lightsaber.

Aayla Secura was trained as a Jedi Guardian, leading her to focus more on her combat skills, becoming an impressively skilled fighter. She mastered the fourth form of lightsaber combat, Ataru, and had some skill in Form V, as well as being a practitioner of Jar'Kai.

Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. He was the Jedi Temple's most agile swordmaster and instructor...Count Dooku was one of the finest practitioners of Makashi in his day, mastering the form at its highest levels...Dooku's practical application of the form was exemplary; his skills were surpassed only by Yoda, and only Mace Windu was credited as Dooku's equal.

Bulq was best known among the Jedi for his skill with the lightsaber; he was known to have achieved mastery of all the lightsaber combat forms and was considered among the Order's greatest swordsmen.

Anakin Skywalker was trained by the Order's most promising Jedi Knight, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Through him, Skywalker would inherit a rich tradition of lightsaber training. Skywalker's style featured elements of many masters, making him outstandingly talented, even at a very young age.

~ Wookieepedia, most sourced from Star Wars

 

Also just because a Jedi has taken part in battle does not make them "by default, more experienced and skilled in lightsaber combat since they are constantly fighting against lightsaber wielding opponents" - to accept that we would have to accept your entire premise and this argument wouldn't be taken place now would it? And those Jedi were not as highly skilled as you claimed as Malgus defeated and destroyed them.

 

I also fail to see your point concerning Force abilities. It is obvious and nothing short of a canon-fact that lightsaber mastery depends on a strong affinity (may I stress affinity, not knowledge) in the Force. Not just for heightened sense and awareness, but to augment ones speed, reflexes and ability in precognition. But my point more is that war unbalances a Jedi's connection to the Force, and so their concentration, and their ability to draw upon all of the above, are hampered - they become weaker. A point you have yet to address. A Jedi living in peace time is at peace inside, and therefore can better wield a lightsaber. Note that sensitivity and awareness and Force channeling abilities stem from the same source. If anything sensitivity and awareness are more negatively effected by unbalance, caused by conflict. And concerning Dun Moch, its not just psychological warfare, by encouraging a Jedi to embrace their emotions, they cannot draw on the light side of the Force as easily, it hampers them. War has the same effect as Dun Moch, its a psychological war of sorts. And just to clarify, affinity in the Force (gained through meditation and peace etc.) leads to strength in the Force. One's midichlorian count is far from a glass ceiling - it counts for little. Your also confusing the words 'sensitivity' and 'sense', having strong force sensitivity does not ensure a strong force sense. Growing more powerful in the Force improves ones force sense among other things, it is not an entirely inherent ability.

 

And concerning periods of peace, I'm not sure, I was searching for how long and I chanced upon something that said '2000 years' but whatever. It was a long time.

 

Some things that need to be corrected however:

 

What you say about Ataru is a somewhat baseless assumption, Jedi realise the deficiency it that form and it was rarely used alone. Forms such as Soresu, Shii-Cho, Shien and Niman were favored just as much, if not more.

 

What's more a skilled wielder (and as you said they would be skilled given the flourishing of tutelage during peaceful periods) of Soresu is perfectly capable of taking on a lightsaber wielding opponent e.g. Darth Zannah was trained in Soresu and used in proficiently against several powerful Jedi Masters and defeat Bane himself. And Obi-Wan himself took up Soresu to better counter lightsaber wielding opponents after witnessing the death of his Master. And given that the majority of threats at the time would come from blaster wielding opponents at that time I suspect their were many masters, and as we know, a master of Soresu is invincible.

 

Your also extremely misinformed concerning the OR period. Mical was not refused training because of the First Jedi Purge, but because of the Mandalorian Wars due to the large number of Jedi that left the order in that time period. In fact I'd go as far to say that the Revanchists were not Jedi, and so using them as an example is a moot point. Considering that they were practically Sith by the end of the Mandalorian Wars, I'd say that is a valid point to make. Counter-intuitively the very Jedi you refer to gaining experience during the war from Sith, were the Sith themselves! May I also stress that it was during the course of the Mandalorian Wars up to (not after) the First Jedi Purge almost all members of the Jedi Order were either dead, or had left. Only 100 remained - likely historians, consulars and the last of the Jedi Councils (who you yourself admitted were weak). That leaves noone to pass on teachings, and lets face it during that time they had more important things to worry about than training padawans. The First Jedi Purge wasn't really much of purge, because all the Jedi were already dead! A expect few, if any, new Jedi were trained until Meetra. So yeah, basically no combat experience was passed on - making that point moot.

 

Indeed the reason the Jedi managed to rebuild and grow strong was because they experienced 300 years of peace by which they could grow closer to the force, perfect teachings, and focus on study rather than become unbalanced by war. Times that by 3 and you've got the most powerful Jedi Order to ever exist. Let's also remember that that Order had no battle experience whatsoever, against the Sith. In fact they were in a similar position to the Jedi Order of the PT, believing the Sith to be extinct but still preparing for a possible war. As Malgus remarks:

 

"For 300 years we prepared, we grew stronger. While you rested in your cradle of power, believing your people were safe and protected...but you were deceived."

 

The Jedi Order of the Great Galactic War seem a lot more powerful than that of the Jedi Civil War, and I believe this is because of the period of peace they experienced. Not the period of war, that only weakened them. Take Satele Shan and her master - despite having no experience in war they went head to head with some of the most powerful Sith of the Sith Empire, Darth Malgus and Vindican. And Darach alone managed to dispatch Vindican. Pretty impressive for Jedi with no combat experience. Imagine that power times three and you have the PT Jedi Order, do you not?

 

And yes during the Great Galactic War some Jedi would have survived, but the key word there is some. Many would have been killed, that leaves less Jedi to train future generations, which means many Padawans would have received inadequate training. Its a question of numbers and you cannot argue against the fact that war depletes the numbers of Jedi, in particular the number of Jedi Guardians and Knights - these empty spaces are instead filled with consulars, and so future generations become less skilled in lightsaber combat in the immediate aftermath of war.

Psst Beni, you forgot..

 

Cin Drallig's lightsaber instructor was none other than Master Yoda himself, and under Yoda's guidance, Drallig became an extremely skilled swordsman.

 

During the time of the Clone Wars, Master Drallig acted as the Jedi Order's battlemaster, making him the leading lightsaber combat instructor and one of the Jedi's top swordsmen.

 

Even Dooku acknowledged that GG would lose against him in the LOE.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

Beni, one thing I would like to add to your post (which is absolutely marvelous btw). You didn't mention Yoda. Obviously Yoda needs no introduction, but for the sake of rounding out your list...

 

In addition to his Force powers, Yoda was a master of lightsaber combat, being one of the greatest duelists of all time. It was said that only Mace Windu, Count Dooku, and Palpatine were able to fight with him on equal terms. Although a master of all forms, his preferred style was Form IV: Ataru, a form which he mastered to its highest degree, as it enabled him to overcome the limitations of his height and reach.

-Wookieepedia

 

So there you go.

Beni, one thing I would like to add to your post (which is absolutely marvelous btw). You didn't mention Yoda. Obviously Yoda needs no introduction, but for the sake of rounding out your list...

I figured the likes of Windu and Yoda needed no mention.

I figured the likes of Windu and Yoda needed no mention.

 

Of course, but he's Yoda. Also, I didn't notice that you skipped over Mace Windu as well.

 

Mace Windu was a formidable warrior and generally considered one of the greatest swordsmen ever produced by the Jedi Order. He was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat. He began his development of the deadly form of combat known as Vaapad, the seventh form of combat which completed (to the Jedi) the Juyo form...

 

Even without his unique fighting style, it is said that only his one-time friend, Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn and the venerable Grand Master Yoda could outspar him...

 

Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time. He defeated Sora Bulq during their duel on Ruul and overwhelmed Asajj Ventress shortly afterwards. Windu also overwhelmed Count Dooku during the Battle of Boz Pity and even managed to defeat Darth Sidious himself in a duel- a feat that no other Force adept, including Grand Master Yoda, was ever able to accomplish unaided.

- Wookieepedia

 

You didn't ask, but I wanted to.

 

Edit: I was going over Plo Koon's duel with Ventress and he was easily holding his own despite his broken left arm. He had even managed to knock one of her lightsabers away.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Aurbere

Edit: I was going over Plo Koon's duel with Ventress and he was easily holding his own despite his broken left arm. He had even managed to knock one of her lightsabers away.

And Yoda defeated her without even drawing a lightsaber. This being Ventress who likely surpasses the majority of Sith Lords in the Sith Empire's of Revan and the Great Galactic Civil War. The Jedi Council would likely make short work of them.

And Yoda defeated her without even drawing a lightsaber. This being Ventress who likely surpasses the majority of Sith Lords in the Sith Empire's of Revan and the Great Galactic Civil War. The Jedi Council would likely make short work of them.

 

I believe Yoda also chuckled at her. Poor Ventress lol.

 

Anyway, the PT Order would handily best Revan's Sith and the Sith of the Great Galactic War.

Thanks for pointing out the flaws in my narrative, helps make the next one better!

 

I would address 3 points though, the bleeding gouge to the abdomen wasn't well thought out practically, I was thinking of it more to provide a wound that would put on display both the advantages of multi-form discipline and show stamina. I could have had Brown throw a rock and get the same effect later, but I tried to do too much with one event.

 

Also, note that the OR Jedi switched to Ataru after disengaging (before the PT changed to Djem So, the change and attack was a result of the OR jedi's change of form). Ataru as a form may not have been the best choice, but notice it's his lesser used form as when he is beaten back and wounded he switches to Juyo immediately.

 

A third point is that it is G-cannon that the PT jedi are more powerful in the force than OR jedi. Bottom line and I haven't seen you dispute that. Only it's relevance to a saber duel, and stamina is its most obvious benefit so it should be included in this limited capacity.

 

Otherwise good points, and I somewhat agree. The truth imo lies (like with mandos) somewhere in the middle. In all likelihood, a prepared OR knight could beat his PT counterpart and vice-versa. In a perfectly even match though, PT wins just about every time.

 

You have made very convincing arguments, before I read this thread I was very "PT dominates OR" now, you have me questioning that a bit. (but just a bit )

Thanks for pointing out the flaws in my narrative, helps make the next one better!

No problem, I do a lot of editing for different people, so it's sort of second nature sometimes. If you want good examples of excellently written swordplay, check out the Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan (the author) was an infantry officer in Vietnam and he writes excellent battles and duels.

 

I would address 3 points though, the bleeding gouge to the abdomen wasn't well thought out practically, I was thinking of it more to provide a wound that would put on display both the advantages of multi-form discipline and show stamina. I could have had Brown throw a rock and get the same effect later, but I tried to do too much with one event.

 

Also, note that the OR Jedi switched to Ataru after disengaging (before the PT changed to Djem So, the change and attack was a result of the OR jedi's change of form). Ataru as a form may not have been the best choice, but notice it's his lesser used form as when he is beaten back and wounded he switches to Juyo immediately.

Makes better sense with your explananation, although I do have a strong personal dislike of Ataru as a form.

Perhaps I should try harder to view all this through the lens of the Jedi Code, but if I were instructing Jedi padawans in combat techniques it would go something like this:

Shii-Cho: Teaches you the basic footwork for later forms. Never use this ever.

Makashi: Flashy and showy, but effective for conserving energy if your opponent doesn't use Juyo or Djem So.

Soresu: Only employ this if you're facing blasters, or trying to escape a superior foe.

Ataru: Don't use this. It's sloppy and it tires you out too quickly.

Shien/Djem So: Balanced and good for any combat situation, especially against lightsabers.

Niman: No one even knows what this form is, let's be honest. It relates to Jar'kai... somehow.

Juyo: This is your standby for winning fights. Only use another form if you're being attacked via the Force, otherwise push the offensive and carve 'em up.

 

But then again, the combat instruction I provide in real life is "Kick out their knee and stomp on their head. If they try to grab you, crush their windpipe and snap their neck." So, first off, I'd probably be instantly expelled from the Jedi Order. Secondly, I'd have to sit through sensitivity training with Yoda about how I can't have padawans engaging in live fire exercises and beating each other with sticks... but that might look pretty good when I applied for the position of Korriban Academy Dueling Team Coach...

A third point is that it is G-cannon that the PT jedi are more powerful in the force than OR jedi. Bottom line and I haven't seen you dispute that. Only it's relevance to a saber duel, and stamina is its most obvious benefit so it should be included in this limited capacity.

Let's leave Lucas and his petty squabbling with the EU out of this. I'm holding out the hope that Episode VII will put G-Canon in its grave, and we can pretend that The Phantom Menace was just a bad dream...

But you're right about the stamina playing a role, it just doesn't matter how long you can fight if your adversary ends that duel three seconds in (the majority of hand to hand engagements that begin with lethal intent last less than six).

Otherwise good points, and I somewhat agree. The truth imo lies (like with mandos) somewhere in the middle. In all likelihood, a prepared OR knight could beat his PT counterpart and vice-versa. In a perfectly even match though, PT wins just about every time.

 

You have made very convincing arguments, before I read this thread I was very "PT dominates OR" now, you have me questioning that a bit. (but just a bit )

This is pretty much what I'm trying to do. I'm not saying that the PT Jedi are pathetic and weak (or rather, that they're any more pathetic and weak than the Jedi who came before them) but rather that they are inexperienced with fighting. I'm not saying EVERY Jedi in the OR Era was a master duelist, I'm just saying that there were a lot of prolonged conflicts that produced exceptionally experienced warriors.

 

Also just because a Jedi has taken part in battle does not make them "by default, more experienced and skilled in lightsaber combat since they are constantly fighting against lightsaber wielding opponents" - to accept that we would have to accept your entire premise and this argument wouldn't be taken place now would it? And those Jedi were not as highly skilled as you claimed as Malgus defeated and destroyed them.

To answer you directly, Malgus didn't singlehandedly kill every Jedi at the temple. He brought a large contingent of Sith with him, who were likely selected from the ranks of the Sith Empire for this assault because of their combat prowess. The Jedi at the temple were probably still completing their training, with the exception of their instructors who were likely veteran Jedi returned from the battlefields. However, there would not be many of them at the temple, only enough to train the new padawans, meaning that the Sith force would have the edge in experienced warriors, as well as the element of surprise and a coordinated assault on the temple.

 

The PT Era Jedi began the Clone Wars without much experience at all. Mace Windu even says to the Chancellor "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" at the outset of the Clone Wars. These Jedi are not accustomed to warfare or the realities of combat. It seems that over the course of the Clone Wars, they gain experience with many aspects of warfare, but lightsaber dueling doesn't really seem to be one of them. There's no practical need for them to be good at it, just as in the modern day world soldiers still learn how to march and drill, but it is by no means an essential skill on the battlefield. In the Napoleonic Era, the ability of a regiment to hold formation and execute bayonet drills in the face of an enemy charge was critical to their surivival. Modern infantry are trained in all the same aspects of marching and drill, but they have much less need to hone their skills to perfection than their predecessors did.

 

To extend my analogy, PT Era Jedi would likely be experts at Soresu and the deflection aspects of Shien because these are skills the will need to survive. And while they will have a working knowledge of the other forms, they are not forced to apply them in a fight against another saber wielder.

EDIT: In response to the claim the "a master of Soresu is invincible", I provide a quote from this page:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad

"Juyo was said to be able to destroy even the defenses of a Soresu master"

Please, no one is invincible. That word should be stricken from these forums. Moving on...

 

The Jedi who fought in the days of the Great Galactic War, and the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, Great Hyperspace War, etc. etc. would have known they would encounter enemy duelists, and while blaster deflection would matter, it was of equal importance to be able to win lightsaber duels. In the time of the PT Era Jedi, lightsaber dueling was practically an obsolete art. How many Jedi ever even saw a Sith? It had been a thousand years since the Jedi fought enemies with lightsabers. No matter how meticulously they practiced the forms recorded in holocrons, almost none of the Jedi had any experience with dueling. There are thousands of subtle nuances that cannot be taught or learned from a textbook (er... holocron). For Jedi, who rely partially on precognition and hair-trigger reactions during their duels, learning to interpret their instincts during a duel would probably be even more important than it is for regular soldiers. Without the actual experience of the real thing, a fight to the death, there is simply an element missing from that duelist's instincts. The learning curve is rather steep, and the price heavy, but you cannot underestimate the value of real experience in your organization.

 

my point more is that war unbalances a Jedi's connection to the Force, and so their concentration, and their ability to draw upon all of the above, are hampered - they become weaker. A point you have yet to address... A Jedi living in peace time is at peace inside, and therefore can better wield a lightsaber.

Well, I suppose I was trying to avoid having to address this point. What you are saying is that Jedi are disrupted by conflict, that it interferes with their ability to wield the Force, and that it weakens them. In theory, you can find canonical arguments to support all of these statements, but what concerns me here are the implications that this has for the Jedi Order.

 

Lightsabers and Jedi are introduced to us by Obi-Wan Kenobi, saying "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." (If you didn't hear that in Alec Guinness' voice in your head, I don't know what I'll do...)

 

One of the primary duties of the Jedi is to protect the Old Republic, apparently from the Sith. Since the Sith are generally fairly aggressive, and historically have favored the tactic of "invade the Republic with massive fleets and armies" it would make sense for the Jedi to prepare themselves for war in order to combat the threat posed by the Sith.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that the very thing they exist to do (fight the Sith when they invade) also weakens them fatally and disrupts all of their abilities. That would make the Jedi a very dysfunctional order indeed.

 

Every time the Sith start a war, it becomes a losing proposition for the Jedi. Their entire philosophy forgoes preemptive strikes or aggressive campaigns in warfare, and so it usually ends up that the Sith pick the time and nature of their engagements with the Jedi. The longer the war stretches, the weaker and less powerful the Jedi become, thus making it harder for them to continue defending the Republic.

 

Basically, according to this line of thinking, the Jedi suck at their job. Not just now and then, but fundamentally and irrevocably. The Jedi Order is practically doomed to fail at its mission, because the very act of carrying out their duties also seems to be their ultimate weakness.

 

Aside from this glaring inconsistency in the purpose and philosophies of the Jedi Order, the point that I am trying to address here is this: actual combat experience produces the best duelists.

 

I am not saying that years of warfare strengthen the Jedi Order as a whole. I am not saying that the casualties sustained by the Jedi during a war do not affect them negatively. What I am saying is that during times of war, specifically when Jedi fight against large numbers of Sith, you will find the most experienced and deadliest lightsaber duelists.

 

Naturally, extended conflicts sap the strength of both sides. This is the nature of war, it is destructive and costly. I never said that it wasn't. However, wars do produce experienced warriors.

 

The years immediately preceding the First Jedi Purge saw the Jedi Order pushed to the edge of annihilation. This was obviously terrible for the Jedi Order, and it would take them a long time to rebuild themselves. By the time of the Great Galactic War, we actually have a situation rather similar to the PT Jedi Order. Centuries of peace have allowed the Jedi to replenish their numbers and they are well established. Then we have Malgus' seething:

"For 300 years we prepared, we grew stronger. While you rested in your cradle of power, believing your people were safe and protected...but you were deceived."

The Sith invade, striking first and striking hard. They push the Jedi back, they take countless worlds. The war drags on, and the Jedi are barely able to defend the Republic. Finally, a stalemate is reached after twenty-eight years of warfare.

 

"While you rested in your cradle of power" ...

Resting is the act of recovering. You rest to restore yourself after being exhausted, but resting does not increase your strength at all. It seems that peace did not make the Jedi stronger, it only allowed them to amass larger numbers of padawans in the absence of battlefield casualties. Did the Great Galactic War make the Jedi stronger? Not necessarily, but it would certainly have made the Jedi better duelists. The constant need to learn and refine dueling techniques, always grasping for that edge against the invading Sith armies, would have pushed the Jedi to the limits of their abilities. You either mastered lightsaber combat, or you died facing the red glow of a Sith's lightsaber.

 

After the Ruusan Reforms, the Jedi essentially abandoned warfare. The Army of Light disbanded, and the Sith were presumed extinct. In many ways, this was a golden era for the Jedi. Finally, they could pursue the study of the Force and its mysteries without the constant need to prepare for war against the legions of the Sith and their followers.

 

But over the course of this millenium, the arts of war receded into the background. There was no need for Jedi generals, or for duelists to fight back the Sith. Lightsaber combat was studied from holocrons, and Jedi sparred against each other, but for generations no one actually had to apply these skills on the battlefield. By the time of the Battle of Theed, when Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi face Darth Maul, the Jedi are barely even able to identify a Sith.

 

The Jedi council expresses disbelief that the guy WEARING BLACK ROBES AND SWINGING A RED LIGHTSABER was actually a Sith warrior. Mace and Yoda think that the Sith are extinct, and find it hard to believe that they've returned. Only after Qui-Gon is dead do they finally realize that they're dealing with the real thing. Even then, it takes the better part of the Clone Wars for anyone to begin to suspect Palpatine of anything sketchy despite the fact that Mace Windu clearly states "the dark side of the Force surrounds the chancellor" ... apparently that still leaves some doubt as to his nature?

 

It seems quite clear that these Jedi have absolutely no experience dealing with Sith. When the Clone Wars break out, Windu again says "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers". These Jedi have spent a thousand years mediating debates, resolving disputes, and meditating. In the first two minutes of the war almost 150 Jedi Knights and masters are cut down by mere battle droids in the Geonosis Arena, whereas as the war progresses we later see various Jedi perform much better against these droids. Their abilities in combat clearly improve over the course of the war. Anakin and Obi-Wan become dramatically more proficient between their first fight with Dooku and their second.

 

Should this even be possible, according to Beni and Aurbere's line of reasoning? If anything, three years of non-stop warfare should have degraded the abilities of the Jedi, but instead we see most, if not all, of the Jedi who survive numerous battles becoming better combatants.

 

So, to wrap up a post that may have rambled slightly (and I apologize for that, I didn't get around to starting this until rather late but wanted to get my thoughts down) I have this to say for war vs. peace:

 

Times of war will hone the individual combat skills of Jedi, when evaluated on an individual basis. They have access to veteran teachers, and will gain first hand combat experience to not only reinforce their training, but allow them to develop vital instincts for battle. The flipside of course is that prolonged warfare will eventually diminish the Jedi's numbers to the point where it becomes difficult to train new Jedi.

 

Times of peace will allow the Jedi Order to increase numerically, but none of these Jedi will gain real combat experience. Thus, entire generations may pass through the order without the need to ever put their lightsaber training to the test. This is especially true for lightsaber on lightsaber techniques. While the threat from occasional blaster fire is fairly constant, dueling experience becomes quite rare.

 

Lastly, to address the absurd plethora of individual Jedi that have been listed as skilled duelists. They are all stated to be "one of the best in his/her day" or "among the most skilled of their era" and so on and so forth. Comparisons like this are only possible with those Jedi's peers, or with the Jedi who trained directly under them/lived in their lifetime. If none of the Jedi in a particular era have seen combat with lightsabers, how exactly are they going to be expert judges of a certain duelist's proficiency? It is only after these skills have been laid to the ultimate test that they will know for certain.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Ventessel

And Yoda defeated her without even drawing a lightsaber. This being Ventress who likely surpasses the majority of Sith Lords in the Sith Empire's of Revan and the Great Galactic Civil War. The Jedi Council would likely make short work of them.

 

Again, you're drawing some very strange conclusions here. How can Ventress possibly compare with "the majority of Sith Lords" ? That's a very broad generalization, with no grounding.

 

Ventress was skilled in her day, but that is only by comparison with the Jedi who lived in that era. Jedi whom I assert had minimal experience with lightsaber dueling in combat.

Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time. He defeated Sora Bulq during their duel on Ruul and overwhelmed Asajj Ventress shortly afterwards. Windu also overwhelmed Count Dooku during the Battle of Boz Pity and even managed to defeat Darth Sidious himself in a duel- a feat that no other Force adept, including Grand Master Yoda, was ever able to accomplish unaided.

Overwhelmed Ventress. Overwhelmed Dooku. What does that mean? He didn't kill either of them, or incapacitate them. He didn't slice off a hand or take them prisoner. So I find them inconclusive.

 

Defeated Sidious? Of course he did, Sidious had nothing to gain by winning. His entire goofy plot to overthrow the Republic apparently hinged on getting Anakin to walk in on him about to get skewered by Mace. If anything, Sidious controlled that entire fight, and allowed it to unfold precisely how he wanted.

Concerning lightsaber forms, Soresu and Shien, despite being tailored to reflecting blaster fire, are in fact effective against lightsaber wielding opponents. Soresu in particular is very effective against multiple opponents and specializes in wearing ones opponent down, waiting for them to make a mistake, and then striking out. It was highly effective.

 

And while Shien is specifically for combating blaster wielding opponents, many Jedi also learned and mastered Djem So such as Khaat Qiyn, Aayla Secura, Zelice Sturm, Sora Bulq, Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Masters Plo Koon, Even Piell, Luminara Unduli, and Cin Drallig, and the Padawans Ahsoka Tano and Jax Pavan. Unduli being a good example, she mastered Soresu and supplemented that with Form V. In fact the only form I'd say that went out of use was Makashi, simply because is focused purely on lightsaber combat which in that period were rare. But nonetheless the forms of Form III and Form V are still formidable in the right hands.

 

And concerning Juyo, it is true that their were likely a greater number of practitioners of Juyo in the time of the OR than the time of the the PT Jedi Order. However Juyo, from the moment of its creation, was regarded as unfavourable in the Jedi Order because it encouraged aggression etc. and was in fact more favored by the Sith. A Juyo practitioner would have the edge against a Soresu master, but only if they themselves were highly skilled, and given the almost 'taboo' nature of Juyo I doubt their were many in either eras. On the other hand their were many Soresu masters and skilled practitioners in the PT era.

 

In this sense I would agree that OR Jedi would have more practitioners of the lightsaber dueling forms, but the forms of Soresu and Shien/Djem So can easily be adapted. And forms such as Ataru, Shii-Cho and Niman/Jar'Kai were equally effective. And given the highly level of blaster wielding opponents in that time, and may I stress the great deal of peace time in which the Jedi would have the time to practice and perfect.

 

And finally, just for the record, Jedi don't learn how to use lightsabers 'from a textbook' - holocrons can often provide a means of training but they also learn first hand from their masters. And through wielding a lightsaber themselves and sparring with their master, they can learn the 'subtle nuances' - however I do agree their are significant benefits to having combat experience.

 

However the fact is, and this is the crux of my argument, that those benefits are offset by the negatives of war and constant conflict. You argue that conflict unbalancing Jedi doesn't make sense, because it would make the Order defunct. But the fact is, they are. Jedi are keepers of peace, not soldiers - just like Windu says. And that applies to all Jedi of all eras. When Jedi become warriors and warmongers like they do in the OR period, many become unbalanced and lose affinity with the Force and so either embrace the darkside or become weakened. For example Nahdar Vebb who said:

 

"But in this war, strength prevails. The rules have changed."

 

Only later to be cut down by Grievous do to his own arrogance and aggresion, which not only made him foolhardy but dulled his senses - hence the success of a cheap trick on Grievous' part. And as Yoda later lamented:

 

"In this war, a danger there is of losing who we are."

 

And you may recall what Satele Shan said to the soon-to-be Hero of Tython after the latter took a life:

 

"Taking a life affects the Living Force, and the one who does the killing."

 

Imagine that but on a massive scale, also remember that this would have been an even greater problem in a war against biological and often angry/emotional enemies. The Jedi were obviously cautious and fearful of war because of the host of problems it brings and the affect it has on ones affinity with the light. The fact of the matter is, the Jedi Code and everything the Jedi stand for is fundamentally opposed to the concept of war, war and Jedi do not mix well and almost always lead to negative consequences. Its a fatal flaw of the Jedi and one I recognize, but that's just how it is.

 

But of course the Jedi have recognize this flaw and there are ways to counter it, Jedi insist on entering battle with a clear head and maintaining inner serenity etc. But not all Jedi are immune and can achieve such focus, many will become unbalanced. Arguably the likes of Jun Seros succumbed to this, much like Nahdar becoming arrogant and emotional, which led to their demise. War simply doesn't work for Jedi, and that does make them rather defunct. Take the Mandalorian Wars, all who participated fell to the darkside. Do you really think that all the Revanchists simply embraced the darkside because their master did so? No, it was because the war and worn them down and weakened them, they lost touch with the light. Again like Kreia said;

 

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from..."

 

The Great Galactic War also shows examples of this, despite their abilities in precognition and foresight, they failed to see their betrayal at the hands of the Sith. Like Malgus said:

 

"As our powers of the dark side have blinded you."

 

The prolonged conflict unbalanced the Jedi from the light and they became blinded by darkness and were therefore easily betrayed by the Sith. Did you not think it strange that no Jedi had a vision or any form of foresight predicting the destruction of the Jedi Temple? The same applies for Order 66, a combination of prolonged war and Sidious' dark side presence clouded the Jedi. But this is at a macro level, however I believe it applies at a micro level as well - the ability of a Jedi to wield a lightsaber is dependent on awareness, precognition and sense. I'd even go as far to say that was the reason so many Jedi where so easily cut down by the clones, the didn't sense anything, they didn't foresee the attack, and so were more easily cut down - even when they turned to face their enemies. Only the most powerful masters did, who had managed to keep focused in war e.g. Master Yoda.

 

Concerning the Clone Wars, we have to remember that it was unlike any other war. It was a war not against Mandalorians, or soldiers, or Sith, but against droids. Droids not exhume emotions, they don't spur anger and rage and grief in a Jedi as a biological combatant would do. Its difficult to hate a droid for example. Wars before that were the equivalent to a maelstrom of emotions, emotions Jedi had to block out and often failed to do. So of course the Jedi grew stronger during this war, because it was like a massive training exercise with the droids being like advanced versions of training remotes. A perfect war if you will, in terms of honing skill with the lightsaber. The OR Jedi did not have this advantage. Lets also remember that were not comparing Jedi who have been in war, and Jedi who have not. But the PT Jedi Order and the OR Jedi Order, the the PT Jedi Order have experience combat, even better, combat against droids, which removes all the negatives of combat with a biological. This would have been especially beneficial for Soresu practioners, who would have had constant training. Making the skills of Soresu practitioners in the PT era formidable, formidable enough to defeat a Jedi with experience fighting Sith.

 

And as a side note, Obi-Wan Kenobi did not rapidly improve during the course of the Clone Wars as you claim, few Jedi Masters did - Obi Wan become a Soresu master over the 10 year period of peace between the Naboo conflict and the Clone Wars. Hence why Dooku defeated Obi-Wan in both engagements. Padawans however, such as Anakin and Ashoka, did however - because they were still undergoing training at the hands of their masters (training they would have received in peace time too), and fighting droids augmented that training and did not detract from it, because it was not the same as fighting biologicals.

 

And to address some of your final points:

 

As I said, times of war will not give Padawans access to veteran duelists, because those duelists are out of the front lines or dead. War, as I have already said, depletes the number of skilled duelists in any given Jedi Order, leaving less to train future generations who become comparatively weak. Case in point: Mical.

 

Concerning the long list of skilled duelists that I gave. What is more important to note is that they all mastered a form if not several. Many Jedi in the PT Order mastered a form. Which naturally makes them superior to an OR Jedi who has mastered few, if any, regardless of combat experience - note that I am not implying that this is the case, all though it would be for some in any given Order. Through forms we can compare Jedi across eras, because forms are a standard that remain the same, unless they are improved upon. However between these periods this did not happen (excluding Vaapad but that is a point in the PT Orders favour) A master of Soresu is a master of Soresu, regardless of period. And in that period there were many masters - that is my point. What's more many of them were praised as being "considered one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history", "most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history" and "greatest swordsmen ever produced by the Jedi Order". So if the PT Order had some of the greatest duelists in Jedi history, then those other Jedi that Order regards as exceptional, must have been exception across all eras.

 

Finally, another 'measuring stick' by which we can test ability is the Sith i.e. Darth Sidious, Count Dooku & Asajj Ventress. I'd also take the time to prove that Ventress is arguably stronger than the majority of 'foot soldier' Sith in the Sith empires of the OR era. Firstly, Darth Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history, and I think his accomplishments prove that that is the case. He took Dooku on as an apprentice, which must mean he held his abilities in very high esteem, I think he says as much in the 'Darth Plagueis' novel, or it is at least insinuated. So any Jedi that can go toe-to-toe or defeat Dooku must be an exceptional duelist, across all eras e.g. Obi-Wan & Anakin among others. The same applies for Ventress - as we have now established that Dooku is an exceptional duelist not just in comparison with Jedi of his time, but Jedi across all times - Ventress was considered very powerful in the eyes of Dooku, else he would not have taken her on as his apprentice - he also says so himself. Sidious also regarded her as very powerful too:

 

There is a disturbance in the Force—your assassin. She has become very powerful...Eliminate her.

 

That's coming from the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist, he saw her as a threat. So it is on this grounding that I make such claims about Ventress, and I believe it makes the feats of Plo Koon among others all the more impressive and testament to their abilities with the lightsaber. Plo Koon in particular, who was regarded as very powerful in the eyes of Darth Maul whom is very powerful himself due to the above argument as the fact he was honed as a weapon. The fact that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan went toe-to-toe with him is quite the achievement.

 

I definitely see the advantages of gaining combat experience. But I simply believe that the negatives out weigh the positives and that peace time is where Jedi truly flourish in every respect.

 

EDIT: An addendum to my argument about war unbalancing Jedi. It seems clear at least from the Great Galactic War that the Jedi managed to maintain a balance and keep focus, given their successes against the Republic. However the damaging effects of war are if anything often a glass ceiling, a Jedi can only gain so much affinity with the Light Side of the Force in a time of war were they are battling with emotions, the emotions of others and constant death that threatens to overwhelm them. Only in peace can a Jedi fulfill his true potential.

 

And

is the scene in the Sith Warrior story where you meet Master Wylett, which I feel supports the above point. Edited February 24, 2013 by Beniboybling

Just want to add and correct a few points to this post.

 

Concerning lightsaber forms, Soresu and Shien, despite being tailored to reflecting blaster fire, are in fact effective against lightsaber wielding opponents. Soresu in particular is very effective against multiple opponents and specializes in wearing ones opponent down, waiting for them to make a mistake, and then striking out. It was highly effective.

 

And while Shien is specifically for combating blaster wielding opponents, many Jedi also learned and mastered Djem So such as Khaat Qiyn, Aayla Secura, Zelice Sturm, Sora Bulq, Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Masters Plo Koon, Even Piell, Luminara Unduli, and Cin Drallig, and the Padawans Ahsoka Tano and Jax Pavan. Unduli being a good example, she mastered Soresu and supplemented that with Form V. In fact the only form I'd say that went out of use was Makashi, simply because is focused purely on lightsaber combat which in that period were rare. But nonetheless the forms of Form III and Form V are still formidable in the right hands.

 

It should also be noted that Shien and Djem So had effectively become a single form, combining the blaster defense of Shien with the offense of Djem So.

 

And concerning Juyo, it is true that their were likely a greater number of practitioners of Juyo in the time of the OR than the time of the the PT Jedi Order. However Juyo, from the moment of its creation, was regarded as unfavourable in the Jedi Order because it encouraged aggression etc. and was in fact more favored by the Sith. A Juyo practitioner would have the edge against a Soresu master, but only if they themselves were highly skilled, and given the almost 'taboo' nature of Juyo I doubt their were many in either eras. On the other hand their were many Soresu masters and skilled practitioners in the PT era.

 

Juyo is considered the Sith Form by Sidious, with good reason. It relies on dark emotions for power, which made Mace Windu extremely proficient at it.

 

In this sense I would agree that OR Jedi would have more practitioners of the lightsaber dueling forms, but the forms of Soresu and Shien/Djem So can easily be adapted. And forms such as Ataru, Shii-Cho and Niman/Jar'Kai were equally effective. And given the highly level of blaster wielding opponents in that time, and may I stress the great deal of peace time in which the Jedi would have the time to practice and perfect.

 

Ataru isn't the best form for defense against blaster fire, but true masters of the form like Qui-Gon and Yoda had effectively eliminated that weakness.

 

The other forms were already effective in dueling, and to say that they switched to blaster defense is foolish. Whether people believe it or not, Yoda had been preparing them for the next war with the Sith. They didn't expect them to come back in the way they did, but Yoda knew they would return eventually.

 

And finally, just for the record, Jedi don't learn how to use lightsabers 'from a textbook' - holocrons can often provide a means of training but they also learn first hand from their masters. And through wielding a lightsaber themselves and sparring with their master, they can learn the 'subtle nuances' - however I do agree their are significant benefits to having combat experience.

 

Masters like Cin Drallig who had been trained by Yoda and had a textbook knowledge of the lightsaber forms.

 

However the fact is, and this is the crux of my argument, that those benefits are offset by the negatives of war and constant conflict. You argue that conflict unbalancing Jedi doesn't make sense, because it would make the Order defunct. But the fact is, they are. Jedi are keepers of peace, not soldiers - just like Windu says. And that applies to all Jedi of all eras. When Jedi become warriors and warmongers like they do in the OR period, many become unbalanced and lose affinity with the Force and so either embrace the darkside or become weakened. For example Nahdar Vebb who said:

 

"But in this war, strength prevails. The rules have changed."

 

Only later to be cut down by Grievous do to his own arrogance and aggresion, which not only made him foolhardy but dulled his senses - hence the success of a cheap trick on Grievous' part. And as Yoda later lamented:

 

"In this war, a danger there is of losing who we are."

 

And you may recall what Satele Shan said to the soon-to-be Hero of Tython after the latter took a life:

 

"Taking a life affects the Living Force, and the one who does the killing."

 

Imagine that but on a massive scale, also remember that this would have been an even greater problem in a war against biological and often angry/emotional enemies. The Jedi were obviously cautious and fearful of war because of the host of problems it brings and the affect it has on ones affinity with the light. The fact of the matter is, the Jedi Code and everything the Jedi stand for is fundamentally opposed to the concept of war, war and Jedi do not mix well and almost always lead to negative consequences. Its a fatal flaw of the Jedi and one I recognize, but that's just how it is.

 

But of course the Jedi have recognize this flaw and there are ways to counter it, Jedi insist on entering battle with a clear head and maintaining inner serenity etc. But not all Jedi are immune and can achieve such focus, many will become unbalanced. Arguably the likes of Jun Seros succumbed to this, much like Nahdar becoming arrogant and emotional, which led to their demise. War simply doesn't work for Jedi, and that does make them rather defunct. Take the Mandalorian Wars, all who participated fell to the darkside. Do you really think that all the Revanchists simply embraced the darkside because their master did so? No, it was because the war and worn them down and weakened them, they lost touch with the light. Again like Kreia said;

 

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from..."

 

The Great Galactic War also shows examples of this, despite their abilities in precognition and foresight, they failed to see their betrayal at the hands of the Sith. Like Malgus said:

 

"As our powers of the dark side have blinded you."

 

The prolonged conflict unbalanced the Jedi from the light and they became blinded by darkness and were therefore easily betrayed by the Sith. Did you not think it strange that no Jedi had a vision or any form of foresight predicting the destruction of the Jedi Temple? The same applies for Order 66, a combination of prolonged war and Sidious' dark side presence clouded the Jedi. But this is at a macro level, however I believe it applies at a micro level as well - the ability of a Jedi to wield a lightsaber is dependent on awareness, precognition and sense. I'd even go as far to say that was the reason so many Jedi where so easily cut down by the clones, the didn't sense anything, they didn't foresee the attack, and so were more easily cut down - even when they turned to face their enemies. Only the most powerful masters did, who had managed to keep focused in war e.g. Master Yoda.

 

Concerning the Clone Wars, we have to remember that it was unlike any other war. It was a war not against Mandalorians, or soldiers, or Sith, but against droids. Droids not exhume emotions, they don't spur anger and rage and grief in a Jedi as a biological combatant would do. Its difficult to hate a droid for example. Wars before that were the equivalent to a maelstrom of emotions, emotions Jedi had to block out and often failed to do. So of course the Jedi grew stronger during this war, because it was like a massive training exercise with the droids being like advanced versions of training remotes. A perfect war if you will, in terms of honing skill with the lightsaber. The OR Jedi did not have this advantage. Lets also remember that were not comparing Jedi who have been in war, and Jedi who have not. But the PT Jedi Order and the OR Jedi Order, the the PT Jedi Order have experience combat, even better, combat against droids, which removes all the negatives of combat with a biological. This would have been especially beneficial for Soresu practioners, who would have had constant training. Making the skills of Soresu practitioners in the PT era formidable, formidable enough to defeat a Jedi with experience fighting Sith.

 

And as a side note, Obi-Wan Kenobi did not rapidly improve during the course of the Clone Wars as you claim, few Jedi Masters did - Obi Wan become a Soresu master over the 10 year period of peace between the Naboo conflict and the Clone Wars. Hence why Dooku defeated Obi-Wan in both engagements. Padawans however, such as Anakin and Ashoka, did however - because they were still undergoing training at the hands of their masters (training they would have received in peace time too), and fighting droids augmented that training and did not detract from it, because it was not the same as fighting biologicals.

 

Agreed.

 

And to address some of your final points:

 

As I said, times of war will not give Padawans access to veteran duelists, because those duelists are out of the front lines or dead. War, as I have already said, depletes the number of skilled duelists in any given Jedi Order, leaving less to train future generations who become comparatively weak. Case in point: Mical.

 

To suggest that there are veteran duelists around during war is foolish. The only reason Cin Drallig was at the Temple during the Clone Wars is because he is a teacher at heart. So Padawans had him to teach them the lightsaber forms.

 

Concerning the long list of skilled duelists that I gave. What is more important to note is that they all mastered a form if not several. Many Jedi in the PT Order mastered a form. Which naturally makes them superior to an OR Jedi who has mastered few, if any, regardless of combat experience - note that I am not implying that this is the case, all though it would be for some in any given Order. Through forms we can compare Jedi across eras, because forms are a standard that remain the same, unless they are improved upon. However between these periods this did not happen (excluding Vaapad but that is a point in the PT Orders favour) A master of Soresu is a master of Soresu, regardless of period. And in that period there were many masters - that is my point. What's more many of them were praised as being "considered one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history", "most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history" and "greatest swordsmen ever produced by the Jedi Order". So if the PT Order had some of the greatest duelists in Jedi history, then those other Jedi that Order regards as exceptional, must have been exception across all eras.

 

Not only that, but increase in peace times allows a Jedi to train in their chosen form constantly, mastering it to the highest extent. Or they can branch out and master other forms like Yoda and Mace Windu.

 

Finally, another 'measuring stick' by which we can test ability is the Sith i.e. Darth Sidious, Count Dooku & Asajj Ventress. I'd also take the time to prove that Ventress is arguably stronger than the majority of 'foot soldier' Sith in the Sith empires of the OR era. Firstly, Darth Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history, and I think his accomplishments prove that that is the case. He took Dooku on as an apprentice, which must mean he held his abilities in very high esteem, I think he says as much in the 'Darth Plagueis' novel, or it is at least insinuated. So any Jedi that can go toe-to-toe or defeat Dooku must be an exceptional duelist, across all eras e.g. Obi-Wan & Anakin among others. The same applies for Ventress - as we have now established that Dooku is an exceptional duelist not just in comparison with Jedi of his time, but Jedi across all times - Ventress was considered very powerful in the eyes of Dooku, else he would not have taken her on as his apprentice - he also says so himself. Sidious also regarded her as very powerful too:

 

There is a disturbance in the Force—your assassin. She has become very powerful...Eliminate her.

 

That's coming from the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist, he saw her as a threat. So it is on this grounding that I make such claims about Ventress, and I believe it makes the feats of Plo Koon among others all the more impressive and testament to their abilities with the lightsaber. Plo Koon in particular, who was regarded as very powerful in the eyes of Darth Maul whom is very powerful himself due to the above argument as the fact he was honed as a weapon. The fact that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan went toe-to-toe with him is quite the achievement.

 

I definitely see the advantages of gaining combat experience. But I simply believe that the negatives out weigh the positives and that peace time is where Jedi truly flourish in every respect.

 

^Agreed on your final point, however I will say that Dooku was recruited not only for his skills in the Jedi arts, but his political skills as well. And Ventress' ability to go toe-to-toe with people marveled as the best of the best speaks volumes.

 

Now for my own points-

 

To say that the Jedi lack any combat experience is simply foolish. As Mace Windu said, the Jedi are keepers of the peace. This requires the Jedi to travel to various locations across the galaxy to 'keep the peace.' A mission for the Jedi rarely ends without incident. We see this during the mission to Malastare.

 

The Jedi also dealt with the Trade Federation's battle droids on several occassions. Qui-Gon Jinn had to fight a fallen Jedi. The Jedi fought in the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace War. So they had considerable combat experience, but you will say that they have no dueling experience. A previous post of mine proves you wrong. The Jedi dueled one another often. Sure it isn't life or death, but it is a learning experience and preparation for the real deal.

 

Concerning Mace Windu. He defeated Ventress with ease, she fled. He defeated Dooku after a short duel, he fled. Just because a limb wasn't removed or an enemy wasn't cut down doesn't mean you lost.

 

But now we come to the now infamous Mace vs. Sidious topic. Mace Windu won. Sidious was only holding back his Force power, but his dueling skills were brought to bear. Mace Windu had given in fully to Vaapad, fighting like he had never fought before, but even then the battle was a stalemate. It wasn't until Anakin arrived that Mace Windu won.

 

Not to mention George saying Mace won. Sooo... yeah.

 

So in closing. The PT Jedi had taken the time to fully master their chosen forms, some choosing to master multiple or all seven forms. Not only that, but we have canonical evidence to support these Jedi being the best of the best. Like Beni said, war is not good for Jedi. The Jedi flourish in peace times, both in numbers and strength. This is why powerful members of the Order come from eras following long periods of peace.

 

Such as Odan-Urr, Vodo Baas, and Arca Jeth. We can't question the power that these Jedi had, however, the difference between those above and the PT Jedi is time. Odan-Urr and Arca Jeth were two of the most powerful members of the Order at their time, but in comparison to their PT equivalents, they pale in power. This is because the Jedi Order has evolved over time, techniques advance and new members are able to take advantage of millenia of teachings.

 

To deny this would also deny the effectiveness of the Rule of Two. The Banite Line shares similar properties to the Jedi Order. Because the Banite Sith were hidden and away from war, they were able to evolve their own teachings and grow in strength with each new apprentice. Both the Banite Line and the Jedi Order had access to millenia of teachings, teachings that would ultimately culminate with Grand Master Yoda and Darth Sidious.

 

In this sense, both Orders evolved. However, the Sith changed. The Jedi Order remained the same, waiting to fight a war similar to the previous wars. This was their ultimate downfall. The Sith had changed their philosophy, the Jedi had simply evolved. Before they knew it, they were playing Sidious' game, a game they were bound to lose.

 

The effectiveness of the Rule of Two is unquestionable, as is the advancement of the Jedi Order. To deny one is to deny the other.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Aurbere

Not only that, but increase in peace times allows a Jedi to train in their chosen form constantly, mastering it to the highest extent. Or they can branch out and master other forms like Yoda and Mace Windu.

Indeed, take Obi-Wan Kenobi. In the ten year period of peace between the Naboo Crisis and the Clone Wars he became an absolute master of Soresu - and his sheer skill in that form was constantly displayed through the Clone Wars, both against droids and against lightsaber wielders e.g. Grievous, Obi-Wan employed Soresu against him and quickly cut of several off his hands. I don't believe if Obi-Wan had been around during the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War of the Great Galactic War he would have achieved such mastery.

The effectiveness of the Rule of Two is unquestionable, as is the advancement of the Jedi Order. To deny one is to deny the other.

Very good point.

 

I would describe the Jedi Order and its lightsaber prowess as a wall. During times of war the wall falls constantly under siege, at times it is worn down but eventually reinforced to become even stronger, improved to be a more effective defense against its attackers. But at times the wall is destroyed and its builders killed, so those inexperienced who come to rebuild it make it weaker. However, during times of peace, the wall never falls and is never worn down, instead it is constantly reinforced and built upon - so when a threat finally arises it is an impenetrable bulwark against any form of attack, because it has had time to build defenses against them all. The only way to bring down the wall is from inside.

[/color]Indeed, take Obi-Wan Kenobi. In the ten year period of peace between the Naboo Crisis and the Clone Wars he became an absolute master of Soresu - and his sheer skill in that form was constantly displayed through the Clone Wars, both against droids and against lightsaber wielders e.g. Grievous, Obi-Wan employed Soresu against him and quickly cut of several off his hands. I don't believe if Obi-Wan had been around during the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War of the Great Galactic War he would have achieved such mastery.

Very good point.

 

I would describe the Jedi Order and its lightsaber prowess as a wall. During times of war the wall falls constantly under siege, at times it is worn down but eventually reinforced to become even stronger, improved to be a more effective defense against its attackers. But at times the wall is destroyed and its builders killed, so those inexperienced who come to rebuild it make it weaker. However, during times of peace, the wall never falls and is never worn down, instead it is constantly reinforced and built upon - so when a threat finally arises it is an impenetrable bulwark against any form of attack, because it has had time to build defenses against them all. The only way to bring down the wall is from inside.

 

Well, Obi-Wan wasn't a full master of Soresu by the time Geonosis rolls around. But he had a higher skill with it than most Jedi. He does fully master it by the end of the war, as noted by Count Dooku when he is caught off guard by Obi-Wan's mastery of the form.

 

But other than that, I agree with your assessment.

Concerning lightsaber forms, Soresu and Shien, despite being tailored to reflecting blaster fire, are in fact effective against lightsaber wielding opponents. Soresu in particular is very effective against multiple opponents and specializes in wearing ones opponent down, waiting for them to make a mistake, and then striking out. It was highly effective.

Soresu is effective only when your opponent fulfills two conditions:

1. He does not cut through your defenses or tire you out first.

2. He makes a mistake that you can exploit.

It is a very passive form, great against blaster fire, but extremely inadvisable in a duel unless you are already certain of your superiority to your adversary.

 

And while Shien is specifically for combating blaster wielding opponents, many Jedi also learned and mastered Djem So such as Khaat Qiyn, Aayla Secura, Zelice Sturm, Sora Bulq, Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Masters Plo Koon, Even Piell, Luminara Unduli, and Cin Drallig, and the Padawans Ahsoka Tano and Jax Pavan. Unduli being a good example, she mastered Soresu and supplemented that with Form V. In fact the only form I'd say that went out of use was Makashi, simply because is focused purely on lightsaber combat which in that period were rare. But nonetheless the forms of Form III and Form V are still formidable in the right hands.

This is basically the heart of the matter. Dueling forms like Makashi fell out of favor in the PT Era because there were very few duels.

 

And concerning Juyo, it is true that their were likely a greater number of practitioners of Juyo in the time of the OR than the time of the the PT Jedi Order. However Juyo, from the moment of its creation, was regarded as unfavourable in the Jedi Order because it encouraged aggression etc. and was in fact more favored by the Sith. A Juyo practitioner would have the edge against a Soresu master, but only if they themselves were highly skilled, and given the almost 'taboo' nature of Juyo I doubt their were many in either eras. On the other hand their were many Soresu masters and skilled practitioners in the PT era.

Of course, in each era there would be masters of the forms that best suited the times. Soresu was essential for defending against blasterfire, and was probably the forte of the PT Era Jedi. Now, consider two equally skilled Jedi swordsmen, one practicing Soresu and one practicing Juyo. The Form VII user has the advantage in initiative and offense, and barring external variables, will likely break through the defenses of the Form III user and kill him before the Form III user can tire him out. (To put things in a different light: It's always better to shoot first. Ask Greedo.)

 

In this sense I would agree that OR Jedi would have more practitioners of the lightsaber dueling forms, but the forms of Soresu and Shien/Djem So can easily be adapted. And forms such as Ataru, Shii-Cho and Niman/Jar'Kai were equally effective.

I'm glad you agree on that point. And I would also point out that Djem So is a dueling form, just one that concentrates on also maintaining a defense against blaster fire as well.

 

Ataru has its uses, certainly. However, it also has its dramatic flaws. I believe Luke Skywalker (quite the accomplished swordsman, he defeated Darth Vader and numerous others) told his students to use Ataru only as a last resort to finish off an enemy, since it lacked defensive qualities and was overly tiring.

"This style of fighting was taught to me by Master Yoda. In most cases, you will not use it as a first resort, but you'll find it often works as a last resort."

 

And given the highly level of blaster wielding opponents in that time, and may I stress the great deal of peace time in which the Jedi would have the time to practice and perfect.

These are separate ideas, the blaster wielding opponents would push the Jedi to develop their deflection abilities, yes. We're still hashing out what exactly peacetime does for the Jedi's saber skills.

 

However the fact is, and this is the crux of my argument, that those benefits are offset by the negatives of war and constant conflict. You argue that conflict unbalancing Jedi doesn't make sense, because it would make the Order defunct. But the fact is, they are. Jedi are keepers of peace, not soldiers - just like Windu says. And that applies to all Jedi of all eras. When Jedi become warriors and warmongers like they do in the OR period, many become unbalanced and lose affinity with the Force and so either embrace the darkside or become weakened.

There is a distinct difference between a warrior and a warmonger. I will elaborate on that later, but bear it in mind.

So...

it would make the Order defunct... the fact is, they are.

Why do the Jedi even bother training for war if it's the one thing they try to avoid more than anything else?

How are they supposed to protect anyone if exposure to conflict destroys their abilities and focus?

Now that I think about it, I can't remember one war that the Jedi actually won by following the Jedi Code.

 

And as Yoda later lamented:

"In this war, a danger there is of losing who we are."

And you may recall what Satele Shan said to the soon-to-be Hero of Tython after the latter took a life:

"Taking a life affects the Living Force, and the one who does the killing."

 

Imagine that but on a massive scale, also remember that this would have been an even greater problem in a war against biological and often angry/emotional enemies. The Jedi were obviously cautious and fearful of war because of the host of problems it brings and the affect it has on ones affinity with the light. The fact of the matter is, the Jedi Code and everything the Jedi stand for is fundamentally opposed to the concept of war, war and Jedi do not mix well and almost always lead to negative consequences. Its a fatal flaw of the Jedi and one I recognize, but that's just how it is.

This really makes it seem as though the cards are stacked heavily in the Dark Side's favor. The only threat to the Sith comes from the Jedi, who are basically allergic to war. If I were a citizen of the Republic, I would certainly sleep better knowing that my "guardians of peace and justice" were also unbalanced and fatally disrupted by any kind of emotional conflict.

 

But of course the Jedi have recognize this flaw and there are ways to counter it, Jedi insist on entering battle with a clear head and maintaining inner serenity etc.

This advice is true universally, though. Lack of focus is fatal for any combatant, regardless of Force sensitivity. This doesn't seem to support the argument that Jedi have some special weakness to warfare.

 

War simply doesn't work for Jedi, and that does make them rather defunct.

I'd like to think that's not strictly true, but the Jedi do seem to be incredibly bad at protecting the Republic from anything at all. Which raises the question of why they spend so much time studying fighting.

 

They are essentially an organization of warriors. The all carry lethal weapons, and train extensively in their use. Basically every force power that they practice is exclusively useful in combat, with the exception of Mind Trick and Healing. A Jedi's entire life is spent preparing to fight... but apparently they're not supposed to because that will make them weak and ruin their connection to the Force?!?!

 

Take the Mandalorian Wars, all who participated fell to the darkside. Do you really think that all the Revanchists simply embraced the darkside because their master did so? No, it was because the war and worn them down and weakened them, they lost touch with the light. Again like Kreia said;

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from..."

This is a little bit of a separate argument, but the "war of conversion" that Kreia references was being fought by Revan. He was actively pushing the Jedi under his command to behave more aggressively. Revan was using the Mandalorian Wars, at least near the end, to drive his followers to the Dark Side. His war of conversion was an active attempt to draw his Jedi down the path he wanted them to follow.

 

The Great Galactic War also shows examples of this, despite their abilities in precognition and foresight, they failed to see their betrayal at the hands of the Sith. Like Malgus said:

"As our powers of the dark side have blinded you."

Clearly. When have the Jedi's powers of foresight ever actually helped them?

 

 

The prolonged conflict unbalanced the Jedi from the light and they became blinded by darkness and were therefore easily betrayed by the Sith. Did you not think it strange that no Jedi had a vision or any form of foresight predicting the destruction of the Jedi Temple?

Not really. It seems pretty par for the course. The Jedi apparently rely so exclusively on their precognition (the same precognition that they know is rendered useless by warfare...) that they never appear to take practical strategic considerations. I believe Kreia had a lot to say about an over-reliance on the force...

 

The same applies for Order 66, a combination of prolonged war and Sidious' dark side presence clouded the Jedi. But this is at a macro level, however I believe it applies at a micro level as well - the ability of a Jedi to wield a lightsaber is dependent on awareness, precognition and sense. I'd even go as far to say that was the reason so many Jedi where so easily cut down by the clones, the didn't sense anything, they didn't foresee the attack, and so were more easily cut down - even when they turned to face their enemies. Only the most powerful masters did, who had managed to keep focused in war e.g. Master Yoda.

Whoa there. Yoda survived because two clone troopers walked up behind him and he seemed to sense their ill intentions, allowing him to take them out before they shot him. All the other Jedi were massively outnumbered and just blown away by dozens of troopers. I'm not sure there are any swordsmen who could survive an ambush like that, regardless of skill.

 

Concerning the Clone Wars, we have to remember that it was unlike any other war. It was a war not against Mandalorians, or soldiers, or Sith, but against droids. Droids not exhume emotions, they don't spur anger and rage and grief in a Jedi as a biological combatant would do. Its difficult to hate a droid for example. Wars before that were the equivalent to a maelstrom of emotions, emotions Jedi had to block out and often failed to do.

So, did the war disrupt the Jedi or not? First you're saying that this extended conflict blinded them to the Force, but now you're saying that this war didn't provoke very strong emotions from them. Which is it?

 

 

So of course the Jedi grew stronger during this war, because it was like a massive training exercise with the droids being like advanced versions of training remotes. A perfect war if you will, in terms of honing skill with the lightsaber.

So, ah... where was this massive danger that Yoda spoke of earlier? The risk of losing themselves? Where was all this emotional turmoil coming from?

 

the PT Jedi Order have experience combat, even better, combat against droids, which removes all the negatives of combat with a biological.

No.

It does not remove any of the negatives of combat with a biological. Droids are entirely different from biologicals. They are uninventive and do not possess the instincts and adaptability which make living soldiers dangerous.

 

Furthermore, the Jedi are surrounded by Clone Troopers, who die by the bushel in this war. These guys are grown in tanks and flown straight to the slaughterhouses. If every death affects those around it, echoing through the Force, then there is going to be some massive blowback from the millions of Clone Troopers being fed into the meat grinder here. We even see Anakin and Obi-Wan becoming attached to the troopers who fight with them, like the clone pilots in Ep 3, and Commander Cody.

 

Now, you say that it's impossible to hate a droid. What if that droid guns down one of your friends? What if the army of droids that you're fighting has cost the lives of countless troopers under your command? There will be just as much emotional turmoil, the vengeful rage in battle, as there would be in any other conflict. There is no escaping it, so long as there are people involved in some aspect of the fighting.

 

This would have been especially beneficial for Soresu practioners, who would have had constant training. Making the skills of Soresu practitioners in the PT era formidable, formidable enough to defeat a Jedi with experience fighting Sith.

Yes, they would be adept at blaster deflection, but where is the evidence that superb blaster deflection skills will give you the edge in a duel against a lightsaber?

 

And as a side note, Obi-Wan Kenobi did not rapidly improve during the course of the Clone Wars as you claim, few Jedi Masters did - Obi Wan become a Soresu master over the 10 year period of peace between the Naboo conflict and the Clone Wars.

[/color]Indeed, take Obi-Wan Kenobi. In the ten year period of peace between the Naboo Crisis and the Clone Wars he became an absolute master of Soresu

This period in which Obi-Wan mastered Soresu, isn't this also the period when he transitioned from Padawan to Master? When he fought Maul, he was a Padawan. By the time of his first duel with Dooku, Kenobi was a Jedi Master.

Well, Obi-Wan wasn't a full master of Soresu by the time Geonosis rolls around. But he had a higher skill with it than most Jedi. He does fully master it by the end of the war

Shouldn't three years of constant warfare degraded Kenobi's abilities, rather then allowed him to perfect Soresu? If anything, his experiences in combat honed his skills with Soresu.

 

To suggest that there are veteran duelists around during war is foolish. The only reason Cin Drallig was at the Temple during the Clone Wars is because he is a teacher at heart. So Padawans had him to teach them the lightsaber forms.

Is it foolish? Let's explore that topic a little here. I think it was a mistake to have Cin Drallig instructing the Jedi so exclusively. It would have been much better to rotate in experienced combatants to better train the new Padawans, rather than have a cloistered academic lecture them. As we have seen, the first time Drallig drew his weapon in combat, he lost handily to an experienced duelist.

As I said, times of war will not give Padawans access to veteran duelists, because those duelists are out of the front lines or dead.

You would have me believe that every Jedi stays in the line of battle non-stop? That no one rotates back to train the new Padawans, passing on their experience and simultaneously giving the Jedi a breather from the constant fighting to regain their balance? If that is the case, no wonder they never last long in a fight.

 

War, as I have already said, depletes the number of skilled duelists in any given Jedi Order, leaving less to train future generations who become comparatively weak. Case in point: Mical.

Case not in point. When Mical sought training, the Jedi Order had been practically extinguished by decades of warfare and the Jedi Civil War ... quite extraordinary circumstances, really. Not just any old conflict.

 

Also, while we're talking about Mical, the man is a Republic spy. Can we trust his supposed account of why he was turned down from training? How do we know that he wasn't accepted and simply expelled from the order later, or failed out of his training? Everyone who could possibly verify his story is conveniently dead. So let's take his story with a grain of salt.

 

Concerning the long list of skilled duelists that I gave. What is more important to note is that they all mastered a form if not several. Many Jedi in the PT Order mastered a form. Which naturally makes them superior to an OR Jedi who has mastered few, if any, regardless of combat experience - note that I am not implying that this is the case, all though it would be for some in any given Order.

So what are you saying? That a trained master would defeat someone who had not mastered any forms? Well, obviously. What we're talking about are Jedi at equal points in their training, but only one of whom has experience with dueling in battle. The guy with the actual experience will have the edge, hands down.

 

 

A master of Soresu is a master of Soresu, regardless of period.

Here's where we get into a grey area. I feel like throwing around the title of "Form XYZ Master" is a little bit like black belts. At first, having a black belt implied that you were one of the foremost practitioners of a martial art. Over time, though, the title was diluted. There evolved numerous degrees of the "black belt", and eventually the title became so diluted that my girlfriend's kid sister has one. So I'm not sure we can consider the title of "Soresu Master" to be a gold standard the remains unchanged throughout the ages.

 

 

EDIT: An addendum to my argument about war unbalancing Jedi. It seems clear at least from the Great Galactic War that the Jedi managed to maintain a balance and keep focus, given their successes against the Republic. However the damaging effects of war are if anything often a glass ceiling, a Jedi can only gain so much affinity with the Light Side of the Force in a time of war were they are battling with emotions, the emotions of others and constant death that threatens to overwhelm them. Only in peace can a Jedi fulfill his true potential.

But is this argument supported at all? Almost every Jedi worth noting lived in times of conflict. I would argue that the ones who became truly great were the ones who rose to the challenges during their times and overcame the turmoil. Those Jedi who never knew war, and struggled against its challenges, never reached their full potential because nothing pushed them to achieve it. Peace is stagnant.

 

And

is the scene in the Sith Warrior story where you meet Master Wylett, which I feel supports the above point.

So... the hermit Jedi is killed by the veteran Sith Warrior. Everything else is just gameplay. Outcome seems to support the idea that huddling in a cave doesn't do much for your survival in a duel.

 

Now, to move on to Aurbere's points...

 

The Jedi also dealt with the Trade Federation's battle droids on several occassions. Qui-Gon Jinn had to fight a fallen Jedi. The Jedi fought in the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace War. So they had considerable combat experience, but you will say that they have no dueling experience. A previous post of mine proves you wrong. The Jedi dueled one another often. Sure it isn't life or death, but it is a learning experience and preparation for the real deal.

Qui-Gon fought one fallen Jedi. Very well. You're right that they don't have dueling experience, outside of their sparring sessions. And while sparring is good preparation for the real deal, it's still not the real deal.

 

But now we come to the now infamous Mace vs. Sidious topic. Mace Windu won. Sidious was only holding back his Force power, but his dueling skills were brought to bear. Mace Windu had given in fully to Vaapad, fighting like he had never fought before, but even then the battle was a stalemate. It wasn't until Anakin arrived that Mace Windu won.

 

Not to mention George saying Mace won. Sooo... yeah.

I'm not saying he didn't win. I'm just saying that it doesn't mean a darn thing. Sidious wanted to Mace to win the lightsaber duel, and he did. Mace played easily into Sidious' hand, so he really lost that battle.

As I have said countless times, there was no reason for Sidious to fight all out. He was just stalling, that's all.

 

Such as Odan-Urr, Vodo Baas, and Arca Jeth. We can't question the power that these Jedi had, however, the difference between those above and the PT Jedi is time. Odan-Urr and Arca Jeth were two of the most powerful members of the Order at their time, but in comparison to their PT equivalents, they pale in power. This is because the Jedi Order has evolved over time, techniques advance and new members are able to take advantage of millenia of teachings.

What exactly do these millenia of teachings accomplish? There is only so much that can be learned about swordfighting, much less mastered in a single lifetime.

War is a swift, harsh teacher. You don't waste time learning useless things, because if you do you will die.

So these millenia of teachings passed down do not necessarily grant an increased capacity for lightsaber dueling.

 

The effectiveness of the Rule of Two is unquestionable, as is the advancement of the Jedi Order. To deny one is to deny the other.

Then I deny them both, at least in the light you see them.

 

The purpose of the Rule of Two was to shelter the Sith, to keep them hidden. It changed the focus of the Sith from open warfare to subtle infiltration. They stopped training legions of warriors and instead focused on slowly preparing to defeat the Jedi by subterfuge. Ultimately, the Jedi were not beaten by superior force users, but by an army of Clone Troopers and a war that had been engineered to set them up for the perfect ambush.

I'll let Beni answer his own points.

 

Is it foolish? Let's explore that topic a little here. I think it was a mistake to have Cin Drallig instructing the Jedi so exclusively. It would have been much better to rotate in experienced combatants to better train the new Padawans, rather than have a cloistered academic lecture them. As we have seen, the first time Drallig drew his weapon in combat, he lost handily to an experienced duelist.

 

Note who he was fighting- the Chosen One. Basically a Jedi that had surpassed the majority of the Jedi Order.

 

It was wise for Drallig to stay at the Temple to train others. It kept the Jedi Generals in the field, trusting that the Order's Battlemaster could sufficiently train the other Jedi.

 

You would have me believe that every Jedi stays in the line of battle non-stop? That no one rotates back to train the new Padawans, passing on their experience and simultaneously giving the Jedi a breather from the constant fighting to regain their balance? If that is the case, no wonder they never last long in a fight.

 

Most of the time. And any breaks they take are to rest and recuperate. In such a grand conflict as the Clone Wars, the Jedi didn't have enough time to truly patake in the training of Jedi. The Republic had been too wide spread. As we see in the latest Clone Wars episode, most of the seats on the Council are empty or occupied by holographic figures.

 

Qui-Gon fought one fallen Jedi. Very well. You're right that they don't have dueling experience, outside of their sparring sessions. And while sparring is good preparation for the real deal, it's still not the real deal.

 

Sparring is an excellent way to learn the ins and outs of lightsaber dueling. It allows a Jedi to know his limitations, and adapt or specialize in forms to reduce those limitations. In this sense, a Jedi who spars often will learn his limitations and weaknesses and will perfect his technique to remove said limitations and weaknesses. Obviously, no Jedi is without weakness, but sparring allows a Jedi to address these weaknesses. This gives a Jedi more time to strengthen himself overall than a Jedi constantly fightning war, as they will have little time to adapt. They would have to adapt 'on the fly.' See what I'm getting at here?

 

I'm not saying he didn't win. I'm just saying that it doesn't mean a darn thing. Sidious wanted to Mace to win the lightsaber duel, and he did. Mace played easily into Sidious' hand, so he really lost that battle.

As I have said countless times, there was no reason for Sidious to fight all out. He was just stalling, that's all.

 

This particular debate has been going on for a long time. Multiple sources say that he did win, others say that Sidious faked it. Taking into account the novelization, I would say that Mace Windu did win the duel. However, in an all out fight, Sidious would destroy Mace Windu. And by all out, I mean Sidious using his Force powers like he did to Yoda.

 

However, I do remember George saying Mace won.

 

What exactly do these millenia of teachings accomplish? There is only so much that can be learned about swordfighting, much less mastered in a single lifetime.

War is a swift, harsh teacher. You don't waste time learning useless things, because if you do you will die.

So these millenia of teachings passed down do not necessarily grant an increased capacity for lightsaber dueling.

 

Why do you say that? I'd say learning from the experiences of others is a pretty good teacher. The PT Jedi took the teachings of the past Jedi and revolutionized them. They studied their predecessors and learned from them. Several millenia of Jedi and several wars with the Sith serving as teachers for the Jedi. It is foolish to say that the Jedi didn't learn from the past to prepare for the future.

 

Then I deny them both, at least in the light you see them.

 

The purpose of the Rule of Two was to shelter the Sith, to keep them hidden. It changed the focus of the Sith from open warfare to subtle infiltration. They stopped training legions of warriors and instead focused on slowly preparing to defeat the Jedi by subterfuge. Ultimately, the Jedi were not beaten by superior force users, but by an army of Clone Troopers and a war that had been engineered to set them up for the perfect ambush.

 

You are only partially correct. While that is one facet of the Rule of Two, the other part was for the Sith to gain in strength while the Jedi weakened. Obviously, the former happened, but not the latter.

 

The Rule of Two created the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist, and the Golden Age produced the most powerful Jedi the Order had seen. You are ignoring the passage of time and believing that both sides simply twiddled their thumbs. Both sides were preparing for war, but the Jedi did not expect the war that the Sith were preparing to fight. Yoda himself says that the Order was preparing for another war with the Sith, what he wasn't prepared for was the evolution of the Sith from 'war mongers' to deceptive agents. He was not prepared to face the most powerful Sith Lord ever, not because of some lack of training, but because the Sith had evolved.

 

The Jedi had become stuck in a rut. They focused on preparing for full scale war while the Sith focused on destroying them from within, which was the only way they were going to do it.

 

But really, this arguing is pointless. Yoda is canonically the most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke, and Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Aurbere

Also another reason for the Rule of Two which you have to take into account. Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness was an all time low for sith orders. Exar Kun's order, Revan and Malak's sith, The Sith Triumvirate, The GGW sith empire, King Adas' empire, Darth Desolous' sith, they all outclass The Brotherhood by a longshot. They had fallen so far, become so weak that they were unsalvageable and Darth Bane had to destroy them in order to rebuild sith strength.

 

Even Bane himself wasnt salvageable, he realized that rebuilding sith strength to be at its greatest would take time (1000yrs time) so he implemented the Rule of Two to make sure each new sith that came along was stronger than the last. He knew that he himself wouldnt ever be strong enough to destroy the jedi but he made a line that he knew would eventually become strong enough to do what he could not: destroy the jedi.

Note who he was fighting- the Chosen One. Basically a Jedi that had surpassed the majority of the Jedi Order.

And he surpassed them while giving in to the Dark Side more and more, thriving on the Clone Wars and his many battles. What does that say about the Jedi?

 

It was wise for Drallig to stay at the Temple to train others. It kept the Jedi Generals in the field, trusting that the Order's Battlemaster could sufficiently train the other Jedi.

By himself. Just one dude, training the next generation of Jedi, eh?

For an order of precognitive warriors, that seems quite short sighted, doesn't it?

 

Most of the time. And any breaks they take are to rest and recuperate. In such a grand conflict as the Clone Wars, the Jedi didn't have enough time to truly patake in the training of Jedi. The Republic had been too wide spread. As we see in the latest Clone Wars episode, most of the seats on the Council are empty or occupied by holographic figures.

This was during the Clone Wars, the first experience with warfare in a millenium. Surely the Jedi had a more sustainable approach to training and running the Jedi Order during the days of more frequent warfare, especially when the Great Galactic War lasted 28 YEARS. That's older than Anakin Skywalker was when he became Darth Vader. The entire prequel trilogy could have been swallowed by this war.

 

Sparring is an excellent way to learn the ins and outs of lightsaber dueling. It allows a Jedi to know his limitations, and adapt or specialize in forms to reduce those limitations. In this sense, a Jedi who spars often will learn his limitations and weaknesses and will perfect his technique to remove said limitations and weaknesses. Obviously, no Jedi is without weakness, but sparring allows a Jedi to address these weaknesses. This gives a Jedi more time to strengthen himself overall than a Jedi constantly fightning war, as they will have little time to adapt. They would have to adapt 'on the fly.' See what I'm getting at here?

I'm not sure that I do. Sparring is fine preparation, but there's only so much it can do for you. Learning "on the fly" is actually just testing your training, and gives a warrior the best possible insight into his abilities by testing him to the ultimate limit. This is not something that can ever be replicated by training.

 

This particular debate has been going on for a long time. Multiple sources say that he did win, others say that Sidious faked it. Taking into account the novelization, I would say that Mace Windu did win the duel. However, in an all out fight, Sidious would destroy Mace Windu. And by all out, I mean Sidious using his Force powers like he did to Yoda.

 

However, I do remember George saying Mace won.

George barely understands his own characters, let alone what constitutes rational motivations for them. Taken at face value, we can only assume that Yoda is one of the most arrogant Jedi alive.

 

He goes by himself to confront the Sith Lord who killed four other Jedi masters? He flat out rejects Obi-Wan's request to fight the emperor, and instead of saying "Why don't we team up on him and then go kill Darth Vader?" Yoda just heads off on his own to get the biggest smackdown of his life. So Yoda is neither wise nor a very humble Jedi. So much for those thousands of years of teaching, eh?

 

Why do you say that? I'd say learning from the experiences of others is a pretty good teacher. The PT Jedi took the teachings of the past Jedi and revolutionized them. They studied their predecessors and learned from them. Several millenia of Jedi and several wars with the Sith serving as teachers for the Jedi. It is foolish to say that the Jedi didn't learn from the past to prepare for the future.

I think perhaps you're taking my specific thesis here and interpreting it in very broad strokes. The bottom line that I'm getting at is:

Jedi who frequently faced enemy lightsaber duelists would have developed superior skills to Jedi who did not have that experience.

 

Furthermore, the PT Era Jedi lacked these opportunities to hone their dueling skills, while Jedi who lived in the OR Era (or later eras, such as the NJO or Legacy) would have had ample experience with lightsaber combat.

 

 

You are only partially correct. While that is one facet of the Rule of Two, the other part was for the Sith to gain in strength while the Jedi weakened. Obviously, the former happened, but not the latter.

I don't know about that, it certainly seems plausible that the Jedi became complacent and were more easily defeated because of it. Darth Malgus certainly seemed to think that the "cradle of power" had made the Jedi soft.

 

 

The Rule of Two created the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist, and the Golden Age produced the most powerful Jedi the Order had seen. You are ignoring the passage of time and believing that both sides simply twiddled their thumbs. Both sides were preparing for war, but the Jedi did not expect the war that the Sith were preparing to fight.

The Sith certainly didn't twiddle their thumbs. But there's no reason to suppose that two Sith, on their own, were going to be able to discover more about the Force than hundreds of Sith Lords studying and experimenting with it. They certainly discovered more nasty, dark secrets but it would have been quite slowly.

 

In short, I do not accept the premise that NOT fighting will somehow increase an organization's knowledge of combat.

 

Yoda himself says that the Order was preparing for another war with the Sith, what he wasn't prepared for was the evolution of the Sith from 'war mongers' to deceptive agents. He was not prepared to face the most powerful Sith Lord ever, not because of some lack of training, but because the Sith had evolved.

Where does it say that Yoda was preparing for war?

Also, it certainly seems like Yoda knew what the Banite Sith were all about. He is distinctly aware that there is always "a master and an apprentice" ... so he's clearly not expecting Malgus to swoop in with a dropship full of Sith Warriors. So I guess we're back to wondering if Yoda was senile, or just rather dense?

 

The Jedi had become stuck in a rut. They focused on preparing for full scale war while the Sith focused on destroying them from within, which was the only way they were going to do it.

Which Jedi, exactly, were preparing for all out war with the Sith? As near as I can tell, the Jedi mostly believed that the Sith were extinct, but that if they did come back, it would be only two of them...

Also another reason for the Rule of Two which you have to take into account. Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness was an all time low for sith orders. Exar Kun's order, Revan and Malak's sith, The Sith Triumvirate, The GGW sith empire, King Adas' empire, Darth Desolous' sith, they all outclass The Brotherhood by a longshot. They had fallen so far, become so weak that they were unsalvageable and Darth Bane had to destroy them in order to rebuild sith strength.

 

Even Bane himself wasnt salvageable, he realized that rebuilding sith strength to be at its greatest would take time (1000yrs time) so he implemented the Rule of Two to make sure each new sith that came along was stronger than the last. He knew that he himself wouldnt ever be strong enough to destroy the jedi but he made a line that he knew would eventually become strong enough to do what he could not: destroy the jedi.

 

I think it was more that Bane realized he would not be able to defeat the Jedi within his lifetime, and that it was smarter to take the long view and prepare a perfect revenge over time. Bane himself was a formidable Sith and accomplished combatant, but he lacked the power and support to take on the Jedi Order directly, and didn't have enough time in his life to train a suitable force. Thus, he opted for subterfuge.

I think it was more that Bane realized he would not be able to defeat the Jedi within his lifetime, and that it was smarter to take the long view and prepare a perfect revenge over time. Bane himself was a formidable Sith and accomplished combatant, but he lacked the power and support to take on the Jedi Order directly, and didn't have enough time in his life to train a suitable force. Thus, he opted for subterfuge.

 

Im not denying that Bane wasnt powerful (although in your defense i made it sound like i viewed him as such). What im saying was that the Brotherhood was so weak that Bane had alot of catching up to do in restoring sith strength. He did become quite powerful, (id put him on par with Darth Revan) but his Banite line made sure each new sith would be stronger than the last including himself. Thus making him the weakest sith in his own line.

I think there are far too many inconsistencies in Star Wars lore for this debate to have a real conclusion.