I let the two have their relationship. Pretty much just did it because why not. I RP my Jedi Knight as trying to figure out what she really believes in rather than going all out dark or light side. Being at peace constantly is easy in a controlled environment where everyone is encouraging everyone else to stay calm and keep their head. In the real world, if a group of what-have-yous is slaughtering townspeople, you can bet people will be screaming "RUN!! RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIIVES!!" Going from the peace of Tython to the chaos of the rest of the world would be disconcerting to say the least.

 

However, I can see both sides of the argument here. On the one hand, you risk a person overcome by emotion running around, letting loose their rage on everything because that's how they gain power. On the other hand, trying to keep them from things that everyone else has to deal with doesn't seem like a good plan. Is a Force Sensitive more susceptible to abuse of power? Yes. Does that mean that they will automatically do so? No. What keeps them from doing this?

 

I would say at the very beginning, love. One padowan is trained by one master, who is for lack of a better term, like a father or mother. They are their padowan's guide and guardian, and a young child will do whatever they need to in order to get their parent's approval.

 

A young child, seven, eight, maybe younger, will automatically latch onto their parent figure. They will love him or her because that person is their protector and friend. And the master, if they are a good master, will love the child back. The kids aren't good because that's what they really want to start out with. They're good because they want to make their master proud of them. It's only later that the concept of good for the sake of good is really understood, and even then a desire for acceptance and pride can play a large part in it, even if it's unstated.

 

I agree with those who quote Jolee Bindo. Love is not wrong. It can hurt, yes. It can change a person, yes. But it can also be one of the greatest experiences of a person's life, whether that love be a friend, or a comrade, or a sibling, or a lover. And yes, while Force Users are more susceptible to the Dark Side, love can keep a person from it just as easily as being emotionless can.

 

That's my own belief, anyway.

Not calling you a liar, but...Where?

If that's the case, George Lucas is wrong, anyway! Anakin is proof. Jolee is also proof (despite what he says, he couldn't bring himself to kill Nayama and she went on to kill a bunch more Jedi). Shaela Nuur is proof. Plenty more where that came from.

 

Sadly, I can't find where exactly he said that.

 

Also, I'd be careful of accusing the creator of a series of being wrong about something in their own series.

 

Finally, Anakin didn't fall because of love, he fell because he couldn't bare the idea of letting Padme go. Also, since all other 'cases' people can bring up exist outside g-canon stories, you can't really use them as examples for Lucas being wrong about something.

Not calling you a liar, but...Where?

If that's the case, George Lucas is wrong, anyway! Anakin is proof. Jolee is also proof (despite what he says, he couldn't bring himself to kill Nayama and she went on to kill a bunch more Jedi). Shaela Nuur is proof. Plenty more where that came from.

 

Anakin killed others for reasons much more than love. He couldn't control someone's fate. He saw a future with a dead Padme, tried to stop it, and in doing so, he was the cause of her death.

 

Let's also not forget, it was just terrible writing. She died because she was sad.

 

I don't see how Jolee not killing someone makes it his fault someone else killed a bunch of Jedi. Jolee could've not loved, and still said, "No. I won't kill."

 

You have walking WMDs, and if they're some spoiled brat, they can be extremely dangerous. So the Jedi Order tried to think of ways to curb every thing to lessen the chances of that happening.

 

What the Order should've done instead was teach their members not to be *****s in the first place, and very likely, not just go about forgiving every Jedi who goes all evil and murders everyone.

 

I can see giving the Sith a chance in the Order, they weren't raised the same as the Jedi. I can see giving the one Fallen Jedi on Corellia who fell because he was locked away in a prison for years a second chance. Giving the Jedi Masters who have their mind messed with in the Consular storyline a pass makes sense, because it's someone else basically doing it.

 

But Anakin seeing his dead mom and killing a village. Killing the younglings because he realized he didn't agree with the Jedi's rules. Those are things you don't forgive and forget.

I actually wonder if this whole "no romance" thing for Jedi might have more disturbing roots. Jedi can influence minds. Sometimes they can even influence the minds of other trained force sensitives, who wouldn't necessarily be considered weak willed. And some force sensitives have even managed to unconsciously influence minds without any training or realizing they were able to do that.

 

A particularly strong force sensitive might accidentally be able to project their own feelings and induce those same feelings in other people around them. Accidentally compelling someone to return their feelings. That would be wrong, and I can understand the rule being in place if that is an inherent and constant concern with these abilities, and if that's the source of the rule.

Not calling you a liar, but...Where?

If that's the case, George Lucas is wrong, anyway! Anakin is proof. Jolee is also proof (despite what he says, he couldn't bring himself to kill Nayama and she went on to kill a bunch more Jedi). Shaela Nuur is proof. Plenty more where that came from.

G-canon stories, boss. Lucas doesn't care about EU writers unless they had good ideas.

 

So really, all you need to look at there is Anakin. Did Anakin fall to the dark side because of his love for Padme, and his love for his mother? Or did he fall to the dark side because of his inability to let either of them go, and because his own arrogance and his inner fear led him to pursue a dark path in response to their impending deaths? Is either one of those things intrinsic to love? Billions of people love without, say, committing murder. You might as well blame the fact that Anakin was a human being for his fall to the dark side, and then where are you? Causation is not a simple thing.

 

And that's just the prequel trilogy. Lucas' statement (assuming he made it, and I believe that he did) that the old Order was wrong about love, was "proven" in Return of the Jedi. Whatever you say about Anakin's love for his wife and his mother, his love for his son brought him back from the dark and helped him find redemption. He destroyed the Sith. (Yes, ignoring the likes of Vergere, A'Sharad Hett, Lumiya, etc., etc.) And it was Luke's love for his father that led him to even try to redeem Anakin, even though the paragons of the old Jedi Order, Obi-Wan and Yoda, believed it was useless and couldn't be done. They wanted to turn him into a weapon against the Emperor. Luke just wanted to save his father. He was right and they were wrong.

 

Lucas had a lot of input on the novelizations of the prequel trilogy, and Matt Stover's Revenge of the Sith book is instructive here, I think, as to both his and Lucas' thoughts on love and the dark side. The final words of the story:

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins - but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back.

 

Love is more than a candle.

 

Love can ignite the stars.

A particularly strong force sensitive might accidentally be able to project their own feelings and induce those same feelings in other people around them. Accidentally compelling someone to return their feelings. That would be wrong, and I can understand the rule being in place if that is an inherent and constant concern with these abilities, and if that's the source of the rule.

You know, I wrote a fanfic that toyed with this idea. But the person who was "influenced" was an empath, not just any Force user. And I intentionally left it ambiguous as to whether that actually happened.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Euphrosyne

Whatever you say about Anakin's love for his wife and his mother, his love for his son brought him back from the dark and helped him find redemption. He destroyed the Sith.

 

I don't think Anakin destroyed the Emperor... Vader did. As Yoda said, there are always two, a master and apprentice. Vader was pitted against Luke and was losing, dying, and in his final act turned on his old Master, fulfilling the prophecy of eliminating the Sith by killing one while dying as the other. There's nothing particularly 'light side' in his attack on Palpatine. It may have been a virtuous result, and the Jedi way of life may be unpleasant and wrong for a number of reasons, but in terms of managing Jedi, I think they're right.

 

If love brought the Sith to their end, then it was Vader's fear for his son that killed Palpatine, not his compassion for a fellow being. I have to imagine over the years, especially given the way he managed his own subordinates, that Vader probably witnessed similar scenes many times, but yet only acted to put a stop to it out of selfish love for his own son. It does not mean that it was not a positive result in the end, only that it was still Darth Vader, dark lord of the Sith that killed Palpatine, not the redeemed Anakin, who supposedly died shortly thereafter. The light side won that struggle because it was Luke's refusal to fight that forced Vader's defense of him, and it was his suffering and forgiveness that reminded Anakin of his training. That was what redeemed Vader in the end, and love was only an element of the admixture.

 

 

Unrelated to that response...

 

The other day, it struck me in considering this issue that there's a sense of scale missing from this discussion. We think of Jedi as being exceptional, but often fail to grasp how exceptional. A vast multitude of hopeful students apply to Harvard every year, and almost all are rejected, save for an exceptional few. That is one small group out of the whole world who accomplish that. Despite all being exceptional, only one of them a year is valedictorian. Millions of boys dream of playing professional basketball, and hundreds make it into those ranks of exceptional athletes. Even more exceptional players emerge from that competition, and one a year makes MVP, but even then there are always people who complain the current MVP is no classic player they recall, these days usually Michael Jordan.

 

Imagine, then, the Jedi order, a handful of Knights selected from potentials throughout the galaxy, many of whom never pass their training. It's easy enough to imagine the students at the academy struggling with their training to be accepted into the order, but where were they before that? They are the exceptional culled from thousands of worlds, most of which presumably have billions of people on them. It's as if once valedictorian of Harvard, or MVP of the NBA, only then do you really meet judgment. All those great players, over the years, but they must be Michael Jordan or greater to move on to the next step. It seems like an absurd degree of perfection to demand, and yet those are the numbers we see reflected in these stories. Those Padawans, while great in many respects, probably aren't Michael Jordan. The characters in these stories, while driven by us, are far more than we could ever hope to be ourselves; the Jedi characters we play are exceptional beyond exceptional, the valedictorian in a class of Michael Jordans.

 

The Jedi Order isn't just asking random nobodies to be Jedi and then wishing for the best. They are culled from throughout an entire galaxy, pulled from countless trillions and trained to be the best of the best in a field of bests beyond the scope of anything possible here on Earth. Not all of them make it, nor should they, given the things expected of a Jedi. A little more can be asked of them.

I'm not quite sure that comparing it to top tier schools is the best analogy. Tython is only one of many Jedi academies - which is why when you show up there to take your trials, you're a padawan from somewhere else. The Consular had Master Yuon Par. But the Knight, who knows?

 

And that's not even getting to how many different orders of Force users there are - It's not just Jedi and Sith. And many of those orders actually DON'T have a rule against romance, such as the Green Jedi on Corellia, or the Miraluka's order.

 

Plus you often send former Sith to train there too if you're light side, so it's really not that exclusive.

 

And that's not even getting into the fact that the Jedi try to recruit as many untrained force sensitives as they can because they're dangerous to leave in the wild. it would be irresponsible to do otherwise, really.

 

It might be a better analogy to say that going to train at THE Jedi Academy on Tython is like being a transfer student into a really good foreign school on some sort of cultural exchange program. Or like going to one of those religious schools back in the day when becoming a monk was the only way to study some subject, and all of the different sects and orders had different rules of conduct and vows.

 

While many of those students will be the best of the best and hold to the rules of conduct, not all of them will be. Some of them will be jerks and hypocrites, some of them well-meaning hypocrites, and some of them will hold to the rules of conduct, and some of them will be decent people either way. Though the school might kick them out of they decide they want to party too much.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Bytemite

I'm not quite sure that comparing it to top tier schools is the best analogy. Tython is only one of many Jedi academies - which is why when you show up there to take your trials, you're a padawan from somewhere else.

 

This is why I'm talking about scale!

 

Earth has roughly six billion people. Coruscant alone likely has a hundred times that, given the density of occupation on that world. Places like Corellia and other core worlds are similar, even though various fiefdoms like Alderaan and Belsavis are might only be in the lower billions. There are dozens of worlds referenced within the game, and hundreds of Senators from worlds of varying populations. Supposing each of them only represents an average of a billion people, there are still hundreds shown in the Senate chamber, which makes over a quadrillion people. Harvard has about 2000 students out of 6 billion people. That means Coruscant's equivalent alone should be boasting two hundred thousand students. Not graduates, mind you, just currently enrolled students.

 

How many Jedi and Jedi-ish do you suppose there are in the galaxy? If there are thousands of Jedi students, they are exclusive beyond any institution we have on Earth, since if there are only thousands of Jedi students, to scale that would be an organization that admits less than one person here on Earth. Let's say there are tens of thousands of Jedi and Jedi-ish students... across quadrillions, or possibly quintillions of people? Still a fraction of a person in Earth equivalent exclusivity. So you're looking at there being hundreds of thousands of Jedi padawans at any given time. Imagine even half go on to be Jedi; you'd have an army of nothing on the field but glowsticks. That seems an insurmountable power beyond anything ever shown in Star Wars, but even if they had that, it would still just be dipping near the level of exclusivity of Earth's finest institutions.

 

If it's a poor analogy, it's because there exists nothing on Earth that can approach that scale of limited candidate selection.

 

In Earth equivalencies of scale, that's less than one person being required to forego romance. They're competing to be burdened with it! They're abandoning all worldly possessions and hopes of a normal life in the hope of being able to have the Jedi council (apparently a group of less than a dozen people!) decide they are ready to face additional trials to become a Jedi. Acting like they are just poor regular lovestruck kids is missing some very important context.

First, no one ever said the two in question are "JUST" lovestruck kids.

 

Secondly, there's more than one Jedi council. The high council is the governing body with only twelve masters, but every other world that has a jedi academy on it also has a council. There's also a primary council that deals with preserving the holocrons and the existing knowledge base, and a council that deals with diplomacy between the order, the republic, and other worlds. In some ages there's also an administrative council separate from the high council, though that doesn't appear to be the case in swtor.

 

Third, after some searching, I couldn't find any good numbers for force sensitives, but I think that the numbers may be underestimated in your scenario. We know of entire worlds being populated by completely force sensitive species, with population numbers in the millions. And they often make up only a small percent of force sensitives relative to humans.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Bytemite

Y'know, I do have to wonder what the procedure would be with Sith that decide to become Jedi but are also already married. Do the Jedi try and bring up the idea of divorce or try and force the issue? I don't envy the guy who has to tell my Sith Warrior that he has to break up with Vett. Can't help but picture that ending with a dead Jedi, and my Sith Lord opting to just go elsewhere for his light side fix. (That would probably be a best case scenario right there.)

Y'know, I do have to wonder what the procedure would be with Sith that decide to become Jedi but are also already married. Do the Jedi try and bring up the idea of divorce or try and force the issue? I don't envy the guy who has to tell my Sith Warrior that he has to break up with Vett. Can't help but picture that ending with a dead Jedi, and my Sith Lord opting to just go elsewhere for his light side fix. (That would probably be a best case scenario right there.)

 

I think, by that point, the idea of no marriage is waved, just like the wave it for Jedi who they deem worthy. Also, it's probably not common for Sith to be married, as it doesn't seem to be the case in TOR (likely because most of the Sith are basically psychopaths or sociopaths) and to busy with power plays to bother with getting married.

 

Sith: How about we call this duel to the death a draw. I want to get back home and cuddle with my husband.

Secondly, there's more than one Jedi council. The high council is the governing body with only twelve masters, but every other world that has a jedi academy on it also has a council.

 

Very true, but unfortunately also beside the point.

Double checking ye ol' wiki, there are indeed various councils for various purposes, but in order to become a Jedi Knight, one must finish the trials, and alas, their own council does the High Council keep on who is ready to take the trials. Thus it really is a body of only twelve that makes the final determination on each prospectus. They're busy, so I doubt they're reviewing thousands of those a year, although I guess it's theoretically possible. Given that they are also the principle governing body of the order, it seems really unlikely they are reviewing millions of candidates a year. I mean, they have magic powers and all, but with a million candidates per year that would mean the council administers Jedi trials to a different candidate roughly every thirty seconds without pause!

 

Which is not to say there aren't entire planets of force sensitives, but sensitivity alone does not a Jedi make.

Very true, but unfortunately also beside the point.

Double checking ye ol' wiki, there are indeed various councils for various purposes, but in order to become a Jedi Knight, one must finish the trials, and alas, their own council does the High Council keep on who is ready to take the trials. Thus it really is a body of only twelve that makes the final determination on each prospectus. They're busy, so I doubt they're reviewing thousands of those a year, although I guess it's theoretically possible. Given that they are also the principle governing body of the order, it seems really unlikely they are reviewing millions of candidates a year. I mean, they have magic powers and all, but with a million candidates per year that would mean the council administers Jedi trials to a different candidate roughly every thirty seconds without pause!

 

Which is not to say there aren't entire planets of force sensitives, but sensitivity alone does not a Jedi make.

Repeatedly throughout the Clone Wars multimedia project, there are references to a Jedi Order that is ten thousand strong. Shatterpoint is what I remember best, but I know that there were others.

 

This was the strength of a Jedi Order that had essentially had the run of the galaxy in terms of recruiting for a thousand years of relative prosperity. It is possible that it contained more members than did the Jedi Order of the Cold War-era Republic, which had been so badly attrited by the Great War that preceded it. It is equally possible that the Cold War Order's numbers were swelled by relaxing recruiting standards and effectively 'drafting' people of varying Force sensitivity and emotional/philosophical commitment to the Order, preparatory to renewed war. You can see signs of this in the Tython quests, but there are no numbers so we cannot say.

 

It seems very clear in both cases that the Order does not accept even a large percentage of the Force-sensitive beings of the galaxy into their ranks. For instance, in that selfsame Shatterpoint, Mace Windu states that all Korunnai - the aboriginal inhabitants of his homeworld, Haruun Kal - can touch the Force. But only Windu himself became a Jedi. Again, we have no numbers, and it would be foolish to extrapolate the example of a single remote colony world into an explanation covering the entire galaxy. We cannot say anything as to proportions. And as you said, the degree of Force sensitivity varies rather dramatically from individual to individual, even among "Force-sensitive" populations.

 

I believe that, while the evidence is spotty and only suggestive as opposed to conclusive, that the Jedi Order was a relatively selective organization that did not train the vast majority of Force-sensitive beings in the galaxy, and that except in times of extreme duress or peril, it did not even try to do so.

Hmm, all right. Can't argue the numbers there.

 

Though this may all be outside the scope of whether some of the rules and code of conduct insisted on by the jedi might be overly conservative, or whether they're needed to maintain discipline. That's probably a separate point of contention.

 

Also think it's probably not quite accurate to say they are competing for the opportunity to impose those rules upon themselves - I imagine that's probably only a secondary consideration at best relative to other motivations they might have for becoming Jedi, like helping others or learning about /how to perform crazy mystical power stuff.

Hmm, all right. Can't argue the numbers there.

 

Though this may all be outside the scope of whether some of the rules and code of conduct insisted on by the jedi might be overly conservative, or whether they're needed to maintain discipline. That's probably a separate point of contention.

 

Also think it's probably not quite accurate to say they are competing for the opportunity to impose those rules upon themselves - I imagine that's probably only a secondary consideration at best relative to other motivations they might have for becoming Jedi, like helping others or learning about /how to perform crazy mystical power stuff.

Well, yes. Of course.

Really the rules about asceticism are probably more just something that very few of them are particularly happy about but they deal with because of what they get to learn and do and because it's seen as an honor to train as jedi.

 

I know that seems like I'm stating the obvious here, but some of the arguments in this thread made it sound like the discipline of the rules were what was attracting new students to the order in of itself. I mean I guess I can see how sonme people might feel that way like they do about the schools and traditions of martial arts. But that probably isn't the primary interest of most of the students and teachers.

 

I read a quote on wookieepedia from a Jedi warning a prospective student that it's a lonely path and it's not so much Jedi WANT to live that way, but that they CHOOSE to.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Bytemite

I'd have happily left them to it if they hadn't immediately opted to attempt to buy my silence with bribery. Well, that and if they hadn't started on about how their passion makes them strong. That's not going anywhere good. Edited May 22, 2013 by Bleeters