KTap Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I know these numbers don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I was wondering why classes without armor debuffs can't have someone with one put it on a dummy for a parse? For most operations I'd say the majority of groups have at least 1 person who can armor debuff. Maybe another 'honorable mention' type section for dps with armor debuff or something? I think this would be more of a fair representation of how classes compare to each other in an actual boss fight (assuming you could just stand there the entire time). Just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THoK-Zeus Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I know these numbers don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I was wondering why classes without armor debuffs can't have someone with one put it on a dummy for a parse? For most operations I'd say the majority of groups have at least 1 person who can armor debuff. Maybe another 'honorable mention' type section for dps with armor debuff or something? I think this would be more of a fair representation of how classes compare to each other in an actual boss fight (assuming you could just stand there the entire time). Just my 2 cents Therefore we have already these 2 threads : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679360 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=683087 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) Therefore we have already these 2 threads : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679360 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=683087 Those are nice, but I'm specifically talking about this thread, since it seems to be the one most people use to compare pve dps potential (I didn't even know those threads existed until recently, and he says in the op that he doesn't update it regularly). I just think it would be nice to have a more accurate representation of what our dps would be in a normal pve situation. This would also lessen the gap for a lot of specs and make this whole thread more fun/competitive, imo. Edited October 7, 2013 by KTap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falver Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) Those are nice, but I'm specifically talking about this thread, since it seems to be the one most people use to compare pve dps potential (I didn't even know they existed until recently). I just think it would be nice to have a more accurate representation of what our dps would be in a normal pve situation. This would also lessen the gap for a lot of specs and make this whole thread more fun/competitive, imo. It is something I've thought about and something I would like to fairly apply. Fairly is the operative word though. If I can think of a way to make this happen and be able to ensure that cheating isn't happening, you can expect this change to happen. The only thing I can think of currently is to force people to submit recordings of the parse but I already think I'm asking too much already with the AMR profiles (they do take some time to build). Otherwise, my time is already often spent doing arbitrary parse verifying. The reason why I won't create another honorable mentions sort of post is simply because I don't like having to juggle too many posts for the same thread. I could be convinced otherwise but currently, meh. Pitch me some ideas on how to present it and regulate it, and if I like one enough I'll certainly incorporate it into the thread. Edited October 7, 2013 by Falver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) It is something I've thought about and something I would like to fairly apply. Fairly is the operative word though. If I can think of a way to make this happen and be able to ensure that cheating isn't happening, you can expect this change to happen. The only thing I can think of currently is to force people to submit recordings of the parse but I already think I'm asking too much already with the AMR profiles (they do take some time to build). Otherwise, my time is already often spent doing arbitrary parse verifying. The reason why I won't create another honorable mentions sort of post is simply because I don't like having to juggle too many posts for the same thread. I could be convinced otherwise but currently, meh. Pitch me some ideas on how to present it and regulate it, and if I like one enough I'll certainly incorporate it into the thread. Just curious, assuming you did incorporate armor debuffs in some way, how would someone cheat in a way they already cannot? As for being fair, just adding an armor debuff will never be totally fair to the classes with executes and damage bonuses below 30%, but at least it would be some type of damage increase for them to have an armor debuff. My main concern currently is the gap in dps for a lot of specs (relating to this thread, obviously most people know that certain classes perform better in an actual pve fight, but it is nice to have a visual comparison of them nonetheless). I realize that some classes will still be behind others, but this would allow for less of an overall gap, which is never a bad thing in a competitive type thread like this. Edited October 8, 2013 by KTap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falver Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) Just curious, assuming you did add some type of armor debuff section, how would someone cheat in a way they already cannot? As for being fair, just adding an armor debuff will never be totally fair to the classes with executes and damage bonuses below 30%, but at least it would be some type of damage increase for them to have an armor debuff. My main concern currently is the gap in dps for a lot of specs. I realize that some classes will still be behind others, but this would allow for less of an overall gap, which is never a bad thing in a competitive type thread like this. Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. A lot of work already goes into checking for cheating, and having another person parsing with you just makes me want to be all the more skeptical. By default. Without a streamlined process of managing another rule/requirement on the leaderboard, I feel disinclined to give myself more work. The reason I haven't already done this already is because of people's concerns along the lines of, "I was parsing for fun and this one happened to be a winning parse. I don't get to be on the leaderboard because I didn't bother to get someone to apply an armor rend for me?" And other rather petty, but nonetheless legitimate, complaints. If an armor rend does become allowed in the thread, I will be looking for two things: 1) Convenience for both the people parsing and me, because with every new rule that gets tacked on there, the more of my time gets consumed, and I need to feel my time is being used fruitfully and likewise, people parsing shouldn't feel TOO stifled by the additional rules, granted rules are stifling in general. But, on the flip side, you shouldn't have to feel like you're taking the LSAT while you're beating on a dummy. 2) Verification of the person, in some way, that applied the debuff. Which isn't too difficult a hurdle, just a sort of insurance for people stumbling across the thread. Like I said before, pitch me a few ideas and I'll take them into consideration. A particular pet peeve is when people tell me a problem but no way to solve it and expect me to do something about it. In this particular case, rather than a problem, it's simply a nice little thing to include. But, as some of you trying to buy health insurance online right now might agree with, implementation matters as much as concept. Edit: As an unrelated note, what the hell to do with these merc parses...? Haah. Edited October 8, 2013 by Falver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) snip A very simple way to do it, without giving you a lot of headache, would be to just use KeyboardNinja's numbers from this thread - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679360 and multiply people's current parses by those percents. Maybe have the original parse number, and add another hyphen and put the new calculated number to the right of it? I realize that the numbers aren't exactly precise person to person, but they're probably all within 1-2% of each other, which is close enough for having a better overall comparison. These numbers also incorporate 30% abilities, which would help some specs immensely. This would also negate your concerns about people getting good parses and not having a person with an armor debuff present. It's a less than perfect solution, but it would hardly require any extra work on your part, which is why I'm suggesting it. Edited October 8, 2013 by KTap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falver Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) A very simple way to do it, without giving you a lot of headache, would be to just use KeyboardNinja's numbers from this thread - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679360 and multiply people's current parses by those percents. I realize that the numbers aren't exactly precise person to person, but they're probably all within 1-2% of each other, which is close enough for having a better overall comparison. These numbers also incorporate 30% abilities, which would help some specs immensely. This would also negate your concerns about people getting good parses and not having a person with an armor debuff present. It's a less than perfect solution, but it would hardly require any extra work on your part, which is why I'm suggesting it. Mm. I like that for the ease of use. The thread will also not be any longer. Certainly doable, it would just be adding in a "projected" value next to the dummy parse, which certainly works at the very least as a point of reference. Edited October 8, 2013 by Falver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Mm. I like that for the ease of use. The thread will also not be any longer. Certainly doable, it would just be adding in a "projected" value next to the dummy parse, which certainly works at the very least as a point of reference. Added a small part about how to possibly incorporate it, but here's an example Handcuff - Sage - Telekinetics - 3/36/7 - 3200.10 - 3433.77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countpopeula Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) http://www.torparse.com/a/450430/time/1381190302/1381190602/0/Overview Same spec, same AMR. WTB Forged mainhand . Edited October 8, 2013 by countpopeula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odawgg Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) Edit: As an unrelated note, what the hell to do with these merc parses...? Haah. Give Pyro it's day in the sun!!! LOL Edited October 8, 2013 by odawgg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odawgg Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) Why not keep it rollin' with more gear Merc - Pyro 2/8/36 3525 DPS 78 MH/OH barrels 78 Boots/Belt/Bracers armorngs & about 4 mods and 2 enhancements 72 Implant The rest 75 Edited October 8, 2013 by odawgg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashwinn Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Ashwinn3104 merc pyro 2/36/8http://www.torparse.com/a/450610/time/1381207471/1381207772/0/Overview72s 78oh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heal-To-Full Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I know these numbers don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I was wondering why classes without armor debuffs can't have someone with one put it on a dummy for a parse? Putting the debuff on for some classes consumes a GCD or requires a suboptimal ability to be used. It's not free. The only easy fix would be to use a no armor debuffs for anyone rule. But then you're being potentially unfair to white damage specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namesaretough Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) Edit: As an unrelated note, what the hell to do with these merc parses...? Haah. The only solution is to reroll merc Also ignore everything handcuff has to say. He's just being a big crybaby because he's losing to marisi. Edited October 8, 2013 by namesaretough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) Putting the debuff on for some classes consumes a GCD or requires a suboptimal ability to be used. It's not free. The only easy fix would be to use a no armor debuffs for anyone rule. But then you're being potentially unfair to white damage specs. My DPS scalars thread (referenced above) takes this into account. It also takes into account executes. Basically, it tries to even the playing field of the combat dummy such that all specs parse on the same footing. The scalars given are *not* perfect. As an example, they slightly over-value executes, while also slightly inflating the value of the armor debuff for classes with Kinetic/Energy attacks that have armor pen bonuses over 50% (e.g. Pyro). They're a pretty close approximation though, and certainly a lot better than a raw dummy parse. Incidentally, Claimed, one of the things I've been playing with on The Ebon Hawk DPS leaderboard is having an "adjusted DPS" overall leaderboard in addition to the unadjusted class leaderboards. Basically, each class is still separated out, but the top 5 overall (probably top 10-15 for the world leaderboard) are additionally listed at the bottom, ranked by their adjusted DPS value. I'm not exactly sure how this is working so far, but it sort of makes me happy. It at least allows specs which significantly benefit from raid buffs and executes (e.g. shadows and pyro) to compete with specs which parse nearly at optimal capacity (e.g. carnage). Edited October 8, 2013 by KeyboardNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinslayer Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 The only solution is to reroll merc Also ignore everything handcuff has to say. He's just being a big crybaby because he's losing to marisi. Haha it's so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJediMaste Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Bulmyni - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 http://www.torparse.com/a/451117/time/1381263987/1381264287/0/Damage+Dealt Got a 78 offhand,belt,bracers,and full 78 mods with the rest 72. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falver Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) My DPS scalars thread (referenced above) takes this into account. It also takes into account executes. Basically, it tries to even the playing field of the combat dummy such that all specs parse on the same footing. The scalars given are *not* perfect. As an example, they slightly over-value executes, while also slightly inflating the value of the armor debuff for classes with Kinetic/Energy attacks that have armor pen bonuses over 50% (e.g. Pyro). They're a pretty close approximation though, and certainly a lot better than a raw dummy parse. Incidentally, Claimed, one of the things I've been playing with on The Ebon Hawk DPS leaderboard is having an "adjusted DPS" overall leaderboard in addition to the unadjusted class leaderboards. Basically, each class is still separated out, but the top 5 overall (probably top 10-15 for the world leaderboard) are additionally listed at the bottom, ranked by their adjusted DPS value. I'm not exactly sure how this is working so far, but it sort of makes me happy. It at least allows specs which significantly benefit from raid buffs and executes (e.g. shadows and pyro) to compete with specs which parse nearly at optimal capacity (e.g. carnage). Certainly something I can do without much extra effort. I would like to see some calculations for saboteur though. No more merc pyro parses until Bioware decides what to do with it. Sorry guys, but it's just way too much of an advantage Edited October 9, 2013 by Falver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Certainly something I can do without much extra effort. I would like to see some calculations for saboteur though. I can easily compute the scalar for Sabo assuming full scatter bombs. The question was always one of fair penalization. I suppose we're not penalizing other specs for movement, pushback or target swapping, nor are we advantaging other specs for raid damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJediMaste Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 http://www.torparse.com/a/451117/time/1381263987/1381264287/0/Damage+Dealt Update on Bulmyni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uriaces Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 http://www.torparse.com/a/452043/time/1381316930/1381317366/0/Overview Kishekzun vigilance guardian 3206 dps ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickglue Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 http://www.torparse.com/a/452043/time/1381316930/1381317366/0/Overview Kishekzun vigilance guardian 3206 dps ! Well done mate! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xAyahuaskax Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Hexing-Mercenary-Arsenal 6/36/4-3126.67 http://www.torparse.com/a/452096/time/1381324068/1381324376/0/Overview 72 Mainhand, mixed 72/75/78 gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmerry Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Bluebérry - Gunslinger - SS 36/3/7 - 3368.19 Log Link : http://www.torparse.com/a/452147/time/1381329283/1381329593/0/Overview AMR : http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/edcf00f9-0e94-4b31-9414-c36e9be4979a Gear changes from AMR - 78 belt/bracers, 78 armoring/mod in helm, DF SA Relic, 78 OH barrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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