It is not canon at all, it says up to his point in time, he is the most powerful Sith ever, he still could've died in combat against Revan and the Exile, he is not infallible.

And oh stick Exar Kun and Vitiate in a room with each other and every time you'll see Kun wreck the mighty schemer.

A masterful duellist and wielder of pure dark side energy vs powerful lightning and a mind control that wont work on KIRA CARSEN, yeh I would pick Kun every time.

Also Vitiate using other bodies to keep himself safe, while that is smart. It also is kinda showing, that there is the possibility he can die while fighting....which he has multiple times.

So his actual combat ability, which is what were discussing here Mefit so him controlling a planet doesn't really help him in a 1 on 1, is rather...lacking.

 

So while you believe that Bane knew more than the Sith Empire which I can not find any proof of , he might not been able to use all that he learned .

 

I think i said what i said in bad english.

What i meant was,there is no way Bane knew more than the sith empire,several generations of his Sith didn't know as much either.

He beat Revan and the Exile because Scourge betrayed them, he could've died on the spot if Surik had chosen to end him, Vitiate is far from the perfect being and in combat is clearly not even top twenty.

 

I also adamantly disagree that being a scholar or schemer makes you the better force user on the spot, Traya was a schemer, then beaten the snuff out of by her apprentices

 

Naga Sadow was a schemer and he lost sharply.

 

There are plenty of examples where combat specialists have demolished schemers.

As for Sion, his power is

We should also point out that Vitiate is only vulnerable in combat because he can only achieve his fullest potential through ritual - but this does not at all diminish him as a Force user. And ultimately, one-on-one, if your caught in that's guys lightning its game over.

In defense of Traya, she was defeated by Darth Nihilus who do the same to just about everyone. Even Luke Skywalker himself would be challenged by the nigh-unstoppable power of his hunger.

 

As for Sion, his power is

compared to Traya. She'd beat him in a fight any day.

 

We should also point out that Vitiate is only vulnerable in combat because he can only achieve his fullest potential through ritual - but this does not at all diminish him as a Force user. And ultimately, one-on-one, if your caught in that's guys lightning its game over.

Then why wasn't the Hero of Tython beaten during his duel with the Emperor?

As for Nihilus...Luke would tear him a new one, before he even has time to do anything.

Then why wasn't the Hero of Tython beaten during his duel with the Emperor?

 

As for Nihilus...Luke would tear him a new one, before he even has time to do anything.

Lol, tear Nihilus a new one. He's already a living black hole! Luke would probably get half his face gobbled before he kills Nihilus. Metaphorically speaking of course.

Because the Sith Emperor was weakened.

 

Lol, tear Nihilus a new one. He's already a living black hole! Luke would probably get half his face gobbled before he kills Nihilus. Metaphorically speaking of course.

Well Luke would, though not really...explain how Canderous Ordo wasn't drained the moment he met Nihilus? HE has no excuse. Besides....information gathered, Luke is immune to Force Drain shall get back to you on that with confirmation.

As for Sion, his power is

compared to Traya. She'd beat him in a fight any day.

 

Sion's not exactly invulnerable to Force Lecture either.

Well Luke would, though not really...explain how Canderous Ordo wasn't drained the moment he met Nihilus? HE has no excuse. Besides....information gathered, Luke is immune to Force Drain shall get back to you on that with confirmation.

Luke is immune to Force drain?

Sion's not exactly invulnerable to Force Lecture either.

We should also point out that Vitiate is only vulnerable in combat because he can only achieve his fullest potential through ritual - but this does not at all diminish him as a Force user. And ultimately, one-on-one, if your caught in that's guys lightning its game over.

Exactly, his full power is through preparation and time I'd also wager a bet that in almost any engagement where he hasn't planned his deck beforehand he gets beaten, the Hero of Tython beats him in combat, in what was a pretty pathetic display of 'mightiness', he nearly got one-shotted in the Dark Temple without even sensing his attacker's move.

Now Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith, LOTS of them for a hundred years sounds pretty powerful right? but he ruled by playing his competition against each other, easy peasy, until he died of old age, the only combat we've ever witnessed is his possession of Tavion, where Katarn's apprentice Jaden Korr makes him look, frankly, amateur hour.

You can be as good a schemer as you like, but if you go for the scheming route you end up risking one-on-one confrontations with people simply far more trained to engage in a fight than yourself and risk death anyway.

Lol, true. Maybe just being bad@ss acts as a shield.

 

Luke is immune to Force drain?

As far as what I have gathered yes, though waiting on confirmation....of course it wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

Sidious was also immune to Force Drain, it's actually surprisingly easy to do so apparently, it's pretty much a fancy version of a force barrier.

That and considering that he was black hole of the force and Dark Side Nexus himself, he probably wouldn't be effected.

Sidious was also immune to Force Drain, it's actually surprisingly easy to do so apparently, it's pretty much a fancy version of a force barrier.

 

That and considering that he was black hole of the force and Dark Side Nexus himself, he probably wouldn't be effected.

I suppose this is stated somewhere? Novel? Sourcebook?

I suppose this is stated somewhere? Novel? Sourcebook?

Ya pretty sure that dark side nexus thing was an observation by Yoda in RotS and not sure possible interpretation of Luke's observation in DE.

Ya pretty sure that dark side nexus thing was an observation by Yoda in RotS and not sure possible interpretation of Luke's observation in DE.

I was meaning the resistance of Force Drain.

I suppose this is stated somewhere? Novel? Sourcebook?

I believe it's in a sourcebook, DE one IIRC.

I believe it's in a sourcebook, DE one IIRC.

Hm, hm.....mmk then.

Exactly, his full power is through preparation and time I'd also wager a bet that in almost any engagement where he hasn't planned his deck beforehand he gets beaten, the Hero of Tython beats him in combat, in what was a pretty pathetic display of 'mightiness', he nearly got one-shotted in the Dark Temple without even sensing his attacker's move.

 

Now Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith, LOTS of them for a hundred years sounds pretty powerful right? but he ruled by playing his competition against each other, easy peasy, until he died of old age, the only combat we've ever witnessed is his possession of Tavion, where Katarn's apprentice Jaden Korr makes him look, frankly, amateur hour.

 

You can be as good a schemer as you like, but if you go for the scheming route you end up risking one-on-one confrontations with people simply far more trained to engage in a fight than yourself and risk death anyway.

While most powerful should not be something we sit on , it is what you and others have with Sidious , Vader ,......etc .

The Canon is made , no one has to the point of Sidious shown the power of Vitate , so its likely everyone to that point would end up like Revan , a Juice Box .

Marka Ragnos was also Master to Vitate but again this was only in name as the two had literally nothing to do with one another . It was Vitate's power that caught Marka Ragnos's eye .

It was impressive and never seen before and till Sidious canonly never seen again.

Back in Vitate's day the Saber Combat was lesser than it was of the Golden Age , we can speculate that if Vitate lived in the Golden age he would have seen its worth but at the moment he probably seen no use in it .

(We are just now seeing Sidious use Saber Combat more than we ever had , it was thought he also at one time mostly relied on his Force Powers )

Vitate eventually dies or goes away , we as of now can only speculate on how and why .We know it does happen .

Him being beat by the HoT does not diminish his power , not everyone lives for ever and everyone gets beaten sometime .

Now with that said if we went by Canon , Vitate would beat Exar Kun but this does not make it fact because situations happen and not everything is black and white like writing in a Source Book or lore or so on .

We know Vitate took on Meetra and Revan , Scourage seen their deaths and his own . The fight was going to end no matter in Vitate's side .

I would not call none of the three weak or lacking in forceabilities or skills .

Poorly written or not the novel , it is canon .

ForceForesight is not a 100% ability as no one has ever been able to truly change their fates , including Vitate .

We know Vitate took on Meetra and Revan , Scourage seen their deaths and his own . The fight was going to end no matter in Vitate's side .

Flatly false, it could have happened in any number of ways, but he betrayed them not because he thought they couldn't win, but because he saw an unavoidable future, where the Jedi Knight would knock him off his mantel if the Emperor survived that day.

I am not even a big fan of Vitate but this thread is the best !

 

Never before have I seen a Source Champion use Canon to inject a theory like this one .

Thank you, bro

As for G-Canon , this was mainly made to keep EU from Meshing into George Lucas's work or keeping him from changing things for the Movies . Hence him saying Luke never got married and Palpatine stayed dead !

He also said there was going to be no EP7-10 (10 I believe) but then at the sale of his company said there was working going on to bring a 7 out .

 

Star Wars is his creation , but if his own canon is the worst but understandable . To be honest if I was him I would have said nothing and pretended EU just did not exist ....

 

Thrawn Series is awesome , I personally love Dark Empire .....................but the writers of EU have lost all idea how to make a story work without making Luke Skywalker into a living God .

Of course there is a fan base for Mary Stu Characters such as Luke , heck we know that he eventually dies because of Cade Skywalker's stories and lore but due to Lucas's rules we will never know how or why.............well now that Lucas is not around possible we can finally get that answer before DarkHorse may or may not lose their license over the StarWars Comics .

 

I personally believe that Sidious is the most powerful Sithlord ever , and Vitate is just the most powerful till the point of Sidious . Why is that so bad ?

 

Luke Skywalker is the most powerful forceuser ever , when you think about it , its not so bad .............it just leaves little room for True Drama and story but it does make a Epic Grounding .

Personally would be even better if he was killed and the story moved on or the whole God like Being was retconned .

I think it would be a shame to wash away years of lore so the the dead and move on would be better and hopefully no more God Like Jedi come into being.

Some fans speculate that Lucas's claims reflect upon EU as well which does not seems to the case actually since EU is not his domain and Lucas himself have acknowledged that EU authors tend to get ambitious.

EU discredits the assertion that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Force-user ever; he isn't anymore.

Anyways, since Disney is now the authoritarian, I am expecting "creative liberties" to be in full-effect in the near future, which will be good for the mythos in general because Star Wars is very boring with outright "most powerful" declarations. Though I am in favor of having TIER based power differentiation. Tenebrae, Sidious, Luke and a select few more can be TOP-TIER Force-users. Others can be lower.

Snip...

Well, this is better explanation in comparison to your previous attempt though you still have not fully grasped my POV in this regard; your logic of Force barrier would be applicable to telekinetic powers but not all of the offensive techniques (their are some techniques against which no formal defense exist; whether these techniques bypass formal defenses or gradually weaken them is another aspect of debate in which I am not getting involved). My assertion stands that an individual can be powerful but still inept on defensive front; mastery in defensive applications is necessary. But I am closing this argument with this assertion:

Both Tenebrae and Sidious possess the capability to crush each other mortal forms after bombarding each other with their lethal Force powers (how long this takes may depend). Make no mistake, if Tenebrae goes all-out, their is no stopping to his bombardment process since he also has gigantic reserves of energy to fuel his power and some of his powers are also extremely lethal by Force-user standards.

One thing that caught my eye is that a Jedi named Empatojayos Brand tolerated a powerful blast of (DE) Sidious's Force lightning though he was seriously wounded by it but he eventually destroyed Sidious in circumstantial way; who would have thought that such a powerful Sih Lord would fall to such an insignificant and unexpected kind of adversary? So, yes, power "alone" is not an answer to everything in versus debates. Their are lot of variables involved.

Refute all they want , Sidious would eat alive any Sithlord .

Luke Skywalker EU can blink and kill most in the EU .

 

These are proven without a doubt and every sane Fan can see it without need of Lucas to say anything .

Unfortunately this isn't the case at all; Sidious have fallen to lesser opponents (Han Solo and Empatojayos Brand) and same is true for Luke. The Force is with the Luke specially since he manages to succeed in all of his adventures either on the basis of his own talents, will of the Force and with help of his companions but he is not unstoppable and neither invincible. On fair grounds, he can loose to several individuals in a fight.

Both Lumiya and Exar Kun have defeated Luke as far as I remember though this doesn't means that Luke cannot beat them (he did kill Lumiya) but that he can be subdued. People give too much credibility to scripting aspects of the duels. Their is another adversary whom Luke couldn't subdue by himself and he was aided by his companions to subdue him (and Luke by this point was stated to be the most powerful Jedi actually). Abeloth would also have killed him but thanks to "scripted aspect," this didn't happen.

ForceStorm remains one of the most powerful skills shown to date . Vitate might be able to alter the weather on a planet , control and suck the life out of a planet but he has yet to Destroy one with his own power.

Their is no dark side ability beyond the grasp of Tenebrae and even Plagueis. It really depends upon what knowledge they manage to acquire. Tenebrae specially achieved the "necessary condition" which would make it possible for him to unleash any kind of dark side power at will like Sidious did. Same cannot be said for Plagueis until he accomplished the "necessary condition."

Sidious had more to study from , histories of past sithlords (Jedi aswell) and skills collected over time and passed down . Far more than Vitate can ever hope to have . Not to mention Sidious's ability to use those skills

I am not sure about this; some old canonical sources imply that Sidious managed to learn a lot about Sith Lore but latest updates may question this. For example: Sidious knows a lot about Malgus then Tenebrae, which can be due to Malgus being on the front-lines and popular who also documented his talents but same was not the case with Tenebrae. Canonically, it has been mentioned that Tenebrae:

It can be argued that Tenebrae's explorations might have been heavily Sith Sorcery oriented but he seems to possess lot of dark side talents in general. He could perform lot of feats with bare hands then many prominent Sith Lords were able to perform with aid of amulets.

About Sith Sorcery:

So mastery Sith Sorcery isn't a matter of joke and neither it is everybody's cup of tea.

Vitate simply did not have the Resources to learn what Sidious was able to . They did not exist yet .

Possible, though much of Sidious's knowledge have ancient roots or predates his existence at minimum.

That's what happens in time , people discover new things , perfect old things , and that's just how reality works.

Good point nonetheless. Still it would be folly to underestimate ancients.

I remember when Dooku was introduced in AOTC and impressed many with his powers and abilities in contrast to Darth Maul. Then Yoda came, blocked Dooku's lightning with bare hands and redirected it back to its source, demonstrating with this feat that how much skilled and learned in the ways of the Force he was in comparison to most others.

Years later, when I read Revan's novel, I was stunned by his mastery in this aspect; in-addition to performing Yoda's feat, he took it to a whole new level by utterly destroying his opponent in the process. This fits well with Revan's abilities since he gained extraordinary command of the Force. The purpose of this example is to show that ancients can be formidable with any talent if they had acquired it. Some members have harbored misguided conceptualization of "power" in Star Wars, IMO.

Well even so, I too like the way Dark Empire showed if Luke had turned to the darkside and such. Besides I also like Palpatine's Force Storms, its one of those "big moments/achievements" of what the most powerful Sith Lord could do.

 

Here is hoping it doesn't become one of the mainstream powers like Force Lighting became, in the sense that were gonna see future Sith start doing them. I think its best to keep it a Palpatine only power to make his status more confirmed, like Lighting was suppose to be.

Force Storm is not a Palpatine only power.

I think there is a difference between stand up to and be more powerful than. The only Sith I can see give Vitiate a run for his money (excluding Sidious) is Darth Plagueis. Who it so happens defeated Vitiate in the BattleZone - not because he was more powerful, nut simply because he was a superior combatant..

I wouldn't regard a BattleZone as a credible source to argue who is a better combatant. Vitiate is relatively much more learned in the ways of the Force then Plagueis and would have several options under his disposal to undermine him during combat situations as well; the latter Sith Lord is talented in his own right but was forced to explore scientific avenues to accomplish power that the former Sith Lord wielded.

Plagueis could learn anything but he lacked in resources:

Tenebrous could easily out-think Vitiate IMO, he had such precognitive abilities that he didn't just see his own death but the incredible power Plagueis' own apprentice would wield.

 

He could set a clear trap for Vitiate that would kill him, Tenebrous after all had the on record best foresight ever and almost everything he foresaw came to be true.

Their is no guarantee that this would be the case; millions of Sith Lords were not able to outsmart Tenebrae; he was so talented and powerful that he was prepared for any sort of eventuality. He had not just focused on his personal power progression but also developed his powerbase which would serve as his eyes, ears and long-range striking tools without his presence on the front-lines.

You talk about foresight? Point is that what Tenebrous did about it? Tenebrae in comparison attempted to reshape his future and succeeded to a big extent in doing so.

I also don't believe Vitiate to be more powerful than Kun's spirit was, which was clearly the most powerful we've yet seen of all Force spirits.

Tenebrae' spirit inflicted lot of structural damage to the gigantic Dark Temple with its raw burst of energies and this was his "weakest" point. On the whole, Tenebrae is lot more powerful.

Well, this is better explanation in comparison to your previous attempt though you still have not fully grasped my POV in this regard; your logic of Force barrier would be applicable to telekinetic powers but not all of the offensive techniques (their are some techniques against which no formal defense exist; whether these techniques bypass formal defenses or gradually weaken them is another aspect of debate in which I am not getting involved). My assertion stands that an individual can be powerful but still inept on defensive front; mastery in defensive applications is necessary. But I am closing this argument with this assertion:

 

Both Tenebrae and Sidious possess the capability to crush each other mortal forms after bombarding each other with their lethal Force powers (how long this takes may depend). Make no mistake, if Tenebrae goes all-out, their is no stopping to his bombardment process since he also has gigantic reserves of energy to fuel his power and some of his powers are also extremely lethal by Force-user standards.

 

One thing that caught my eye is that a Jedi named Empatojayos Brand tolerated a powerful blast of (DE) Sidious's Force lightning though he was seriously wounded by it but he eventually destroyed Sidious in circumstantial way; who would have thought that such a powerful Sih Lord would fall to such an insignificant and unexpected kind of adversary? So, yes, power "alone" is not an answer to everything in versus debates. Their are lot of variables involved.

However if Sidious were subject to 'bombardment' rather than a single attack, he'd likely throw up active barriers. And given his power, and his knowledge of the Force and the dark side, I'd expect they are very potent. And Sidious can always fight back.

Force Storm is not a Palpatine only power.

 

 

Force Storm is not a Palpatine only power.

 

Yes it is, Force Storm(Wormhole) has only ever been shown to be used by Sidious(by name) alone without aid. They really should just have it be called Force Wormhole instead of Force Storm...but I guess we can use its other names, guess we can always call it Hyperspace Wormhole.

Circumstance can kill anyone, that much I agree on. But circumstances only arise in a pitched battle and I would agree that Vitiate would have a chance of defeating Sidious in any such battle, though the odds would be shifted considerably in Sidious' favour. Neither of then are invincible, both can be killed. But only if their Force barriers are weakened first. Effectively, only after a pitched battle, Sidious will never be defeated off-the-bat. For at least as far as we are aware Vitiate possesses no abilities that can bypass natural Force barriers. Except possible mental attacks.

 

However if Sidious were subject to 'bombardment' rather than a single attack, he'd likely throw up active barriers. And given his power, and his knowledge of the Force and the dark side, I'd expect they are very potent. And Sidious can always fight back.

Point is that none of us have any idea about the nature of Tenebrae's mysterious power either; so possibility remains that this mysterious power can bypass formal defensive abilities as well. After all, 11 most powerful Sith Lords in the Galaxy [barring him (Tenebrae)] had no answer to this kind of power and dropped like flies. No formal offensive Sith application is this much effective unless power disparity is too enormous; this kind of feat can be accomplished with most potent dark side talents only (techniques too great to defend against formally).

In addition, very little is known about Tenebrae's capabilities in general. Their is lot of room for "creative liberties" for Tenebrae as per his story. Therefore, keep an open mind.

In the sense that Sidious is the only known Sith Lord to ever wield it without aid, it is.

Sidious acquired the "necessary condition" to make it possible for him to unleash such kind of power without serious consequences. By the term "necessary condition," I am implying immortality coupled with gigantic supply of reserves to fuel personal power. It wasn't safe and/or possible for Sidious to unleash this power in his former mortal condition.

Yes it is, Force Storm(Wormhole) has only ever been shown to be used by Sidious(by name) alone without aid. They really should just have it be called Force Wormhole instead of Force Storm...but I guess we can use its other names, guess we can always call it Hyperspace Wormhole.

Well, this "dark side Force ability" is not exclusive to him; this power is too risky to unleash in mortal condition and without gigantic supply of reserves to fuel personal power. Tenebrae is the only other Sith Lord who meets this criteria.