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Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.


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I too don't mean to sound rude, but that's because I honestly don't think that having a couple hundred extra stats will do squat in the games current state. If anything augmented gear is only going to exacerbate the issue too by making people even more bursty.

 

At the end of the day, you either think that the current TTK is OK, or you think it's too short. It weighs heavily on your playstyle and how you get your enjoyment from the game. Do you enjoying ganking people? Or do you enjoy having time to use your brain? I fall into the latter, enough said.

 

<.< Evidently, my brain moves alot faster than yours. Or maybe I lag less.

 

In all honesty, good luck out there, and if you're not having fun and are unwilling/unable to adapt the game/character/playstyle to something fun for you, then MMO's may not be for you. >.> Chess is a wonderful strategy based game with plenty of time to use your brain.

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Does 2 players bursting you down in under 10 seconds whilst you have full BM gear sound like genius or skill to you? Are we even playing the same game?

 

Don't get me wrong when I'm with my Guardian friend, I can do exactly the same, but it's certainly not skilled and it's most definitely not fun. I actually feel sorry for the people we focus especially if there are more than 2 of us, and no it doesn't take any skill at all.

 

3 DPS on 1 player is a joke now. It's pretty much an instant kill - again does that sound like genius or skill to you when you can potentially have 8 DPS in a WZ? Focusing people just exacerbates the TTK issue.

 

All the situations you state as examples of negative gameplay are pretty much what people actually expect in PvP gameplay.

 

If you get attacked by two DPS classes a 10s time-to-live is about right. That's 7 GCDs per attacker, or 14 total abilities. That should be enough damage to kill most classes.

 

3 DPS on a single player should pretty much result in an insta-gib unless someone helps the victim out quickly. Assuming even one or two synergistic debuffs, three DPS should tear through anything but the best-geared tanks using powerful cooldowns in 5 seconds or less. Tanks and DPS with control abilities are supposed to prevent dedicated DPS classes from freely attacking their teammates and should prevent focus fire situations at all costs.

 

Remember that a tank can effectively neutralize two DPS by taunting one and CC'ing the other.

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Does 2 players bursting you down in under 10 seconds whilst you have full BM gear sound like genius or skill to you? Are we even playing the same game?

 

Don't get me wrong when I'm with my Guardian friend, I can do exactly the same, but it's certainly not skilled and it's most definitely not fun. I actually feel sorry for the people we focus especially if there are more than 2 of us, and no it doesn't take any skill at all.

 

3 DPS on 1 player is a joke now. It's pretty much an instant kill - again does that sound like genius or skill to you when you can potentially have 8 DPS in a WZ? Focusing people just exacerbates the TTK issue.

 

I think you just hit the nail in the head there with your comment. Yes, 2 players bursting me down does sound about right. If I am by myself, and I get focused by 2 or more players, yes...I fully expect to die. I don't play this game to play God mode and go through an entire warzone with no deaths. There have been countless times on warzones where I know I'm going to die....and do everything I can to just SLOW the enemy down...snares, slows, etc to give my team enough time to respond or counter. Where do you get the expectation of seeing 2 or 3 dps focusing you, and expect to live? That is just an unreasonable expectation...a product of people getting used to the gameplay pre1.2 where you could have 2-3 healers keeping EVERYTHING up in a game, including each other....

 

And you forget...while you are being "focused" down by the 2+ DPS, what is the rest of your team doing? Hopefully scoring or capping since they now have 2 or more players preoccupied with focusing you down. Do you use warzone healthpacks and LoS? Do you call out you need help? Do you run to teammates to help instead of trying to faceroll the marauder or scoundrel in front of you?

 

The good healers on my server do notice the difference in PVP, but yet they still win games for us. I know their skill cap is higher so they have it a little easier than some random players or casuals out there, but that is where skill comes into play.

 

Are there tweaks they can add to make the gameplay more balanced? Absolutely. Is 1.2 healing the end all the world is coming to an end for healers? Absolutely not.

 

Healing just now actually requires skill and critical thinking instead of rolling your face across your keyboard.

 

And to your question about 3 dps pounding on a target , whether it sounds like skill to me? I have a question in response to that.....What is that 1 target doing seperated from his entire team? Or did the team of 3 dps focusing down outplay the other team to eventually corner that 1 target and focus him?

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<.< Evidently, my brain moves alot faster than yours. Or maybe I lag less.

 

In all honesty, good luck out there, and if you're not having fun and are unwilling/unable to adapt the game/character/playstyle to something fun for you, then MMO's may not be for you. >.> Chess is a wonderful strategy based game with plenty of time to use your brain.

 

If you say so. Adapting to a gibfest really isn't my thing so perhaps you're right. All I know for sure is that even with healing being out of control in 1.1, the general TTK amongst DPS felt more balanced than any MMO I've ever played, and I've played quite a few. Not too long, not too short, it was perfect. Now it feels like I'm playing a FPS-MMO, which you're obviously fine with and that's cool. I'm glad you're enjoying the game, I think Bioware deserves praise for what they've accomplished. I just wholeheartedly disagree with their latest design choice, and so does pretty much everyone in my guild and who I've talked to in game. And that pretty much sums it up.

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I have to go to bed so don't have time to reply to you all, so I will just say this. Since 1.2, the time to kill, DPS vs DPS (forget about healers for a minute), feels like it has dropped significantly. It's a subtle change but it's there, and is only exacerbated the more DPS you have. A duel between me and another DPS could last anywhere from 20-30 seconds, now I'm lucky if I can last more than 15 before somebody dies.

 

Some of you think this is how it should be, I however feel the opposite. You're not going to change my opinion and I don't expect to change yours. I just think a longer TTK will benefit everyone overall - I guess we'll have to wait until everyone's free month is up before we see who Bioware agree's with the most.

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I have to go to bed so don't have time to reply to you all, so I will just say this. Since 1.2, the time to kill, DPS vs DPS (forget about healers for a minute), feels like it has dropped significantly. It's a subtle change but it's there, and is only exacerbated the more DPS you have. A duel between me and another DPS could last anywhere from 20-30 seconds, now I'm lucky if I can last more than 15 before somebody dies.

 

Some of you think this is how it should be, I however feel the opposite. You're not going to change my opinion and I don't expect to change yours. I just think a longer TTK will benefit everyone overall - I guess we'll have to wait until everyone's free month is up before we see who Bioware agree's with the most.

 

I like this post... i disagree with you, but I like the post none the less.

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I wanted to add; There is a way to "add" a massive chunk to your health. It's called -actually- planning/building your gear, and not just grabbing a complete matched set. Complete sets are good, but there are so many tools at your disposal to customize your gear and fortify your weakness, that I've found most pvp'ers dont/won't do,

 

good point! And many of us did that with BM gear. Now, with WH gear they have switched up all the power/crit mods on the pieces..so for example, maybe your BM force master gloves had power, but in WH they have crit. So if you want power on your BH gloves you need to get force mystic gloves. THE PROBLEM IS, in order to purchase force mystic WH gloves, you have to trade in force mystic BM gloves specifically. I dont have force mystic glvoes because I mix/matched my BM gear to get two 2 set bonuses, and the stats I wanted at the same time. The system will not allow you to trade in you BM FORCE MASTER gloves for a WH FORCE MYSTIC gloves. This is a big problem cos I shouldnt have to regrind BM to get the specific WH pieces I want. This affects some classes more than other I suppose, but inquisitors have 3 sets of gear to choose from for PVP gear.

 

Go here to voice your opinion if this matters to you too!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=421725

Edited by Ushela
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The new TTK is definitely out of control. This new change to expertise severely benefits certain classes (warriors/powertechs) more than others.

 

Powertechs (I play a powertech) were changed in 1.2 in hopes to reduce the amount of back to back rail shots they got. Which they definitely did, but in that change they made our initial burst very high. In a fight where people die in literally 2-3 seconds, this is extremely overpowered and makes the change in 1.2 moot.

 

Other classes with 'god modes' because instantly superior because they have cd's that prevent them from being killed in those few seconds where any other class would be (guarded or not). Marauders and Assassins both have abilities for this.

 

Every other class in the game gets crapped on all day long because they don't have either of those.

 

People say this change brings more skill to the game, have you noticed wz's are tougher to win? Games that are much closer? This is because it takes less skill, not more skill. A team of 4 highly skilled players would easily dominate any 8 people pre 1.2 even with crappy pugs. The games are tougher fights now because it's easy for anyone to stack warriors and powertechs and blow people up in seconds. This has lowered the skill level of the game.

 

Now don't misunderstand me, I am in no way saying certain classes should be nerfed. These classes only seem overpowered because of this expertise change that came with 1.2.

 

I suggest the damage multipliers be reduced back to pre 1.2, and the healing be nerfed as well to compensate. This way fights last longer but those less skilled players still have a chance to kill healers (not like it was difficult anyways). It gives people a chance to do something about being attacked. Currently if you get focused by 2 powertechs, you have absolutely no hope of survival. This needs to change

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Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

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Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

Georg,

 

Thanks for the reply on this. I feel like expertise affecting DPS far more than mitigation or healing is what is making us feel so squishy. Myself I have over 1220 expertise and against certain classes, 1v1 even, like marauders I can easily be defeated in 4-5 GCDs.

 

Would you be able to tell from overall number of WZ kills now vs pre-1.2? I expect there should be a substantial increase. Hopefully you guys track this stat. Also any chance on sharing with us? : )

Edited by pwnshoppe
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Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

Personally I think the problem is expertise in general. A PvP stat has never been a good idea in my opinion. All it does is make gear far more important than skill, which is something I am never a fan of.

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Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

Interesting -- what is your take on defensive stats in PvP? I look at defensive stats as being almost equal as expertise defensive wise.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

I agree. I play as a Shield Vanguard and my burst potential is too high for a Tanking class. I *can* and frequently am able to burst people for 6-8k in a matter of GCD's basically every 15 seconds.

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

Are you talking about armor reduction debuffs?

Edited by Notannos
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Are you guys really going to nerf damage across the board when this is only a pvp issue? again? It's clearly an issue between the ratio of damage expertise bonus and mitigation expertise bonus. Edited by Scramilton
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Are you guys really going to nerf damage across the board when this is only a pvp issue? again? It's clearly an issue between the ratio of damage expertise bonus and mitigation expertise bonus.

 

You're talking a 4-5% difference between the two.

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That's a significant difference. Pre-1.2 they were equal.

 

1. They nerfed healers.

2. They made the GCD way more responsive.

3. Marauders

4. Nerfed Champion gear. The expertise difference is quite large now.

5. Can't get away with PvE gear.

Edited by ComeAndSee
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Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

You're the only one in this thread that brought up Columi gear, why? What does Columi gear have to do with pvp? Recruit is garbage aside the increased expertise over Centurion and Champion gear, however Cent and Champ still has much better stats. Why should I buy a suit of Recruit and only have 13K health with 900 expertise which doesn't help much when the suit's stats are low. Even if recruit's stats are low, endurance should've been a little higher.

 

PS- oh and thanks for swapping out +power stats for +defense stats on Tionese, Centurion and Champion gear, they're so useless to me as a medicine operative... :rolleyes:

Edited by Sookster
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You're the only one in this thread that brought up Columi gear, why? What does Columi gear have to do with pvp? Recruit is garbage aside the increased expertise over Centurion and Champion gear, however Cent and Champ still has much better stats. Why should I buy a suit of Recruit and only have 13K health with 900 expertise which doesn't help much when the suit's stats are low. Even if recruit's stats are low, endurance should've been a little higher.

 

So you would rather hit lvl 50 and have no pvp gear? Would you rather walk into a WZ with 12k HP and 0 expertise? The recruit gear is to get you on your feet. The majority of the players out there aren't full decked out players with Battlemaster/War Hero gear.

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So you would rather hit lvl 50 and have no pvp gear? Would you rather walk into a WZ with 12k HP and 0 expertise? The recruit gear is to get you on your feet. The majority of the players out there aren't full decked out players with Battlemaster/War Hero gear.

 

^ read the last sentence in that quote.

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