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The REAL Most Powerful Sith


Beniboybling

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Thinking about it now, it makes no sense Darth Traya being in her current position. Just to name one, Darth Nyriss was clearly more powerful, she overpowered Surik with ease only with the Force, which shows she was highly above the Jedi. This is more than enough to conclude she was more powerful than Traya.

 

The circumstances do not favor your argument.

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Thinking about it now, it makes no sense Darth Traya being in her current position. Just to name one, Darth Nyriss was clearly more powerful, she overpowered Surik with ease only with the Force, which shows she was highly above the Jedi. This is more than enough to conclude she was more powerful than Traya.
There are two problems with this however:

 

 

  1. It is not taking into account the various exceptional circumstance which seem to surround that scenario.
     
     
  2. Placing Nyriss on this list would be implying that Nyriss is the most powerful Dark Council member ever - and I do not feel we possess enough information to support such a bold assertion.
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The circumstances do not favor your argument.

His argument is valid. On the other hand, OP's theory is poorly imagined.

 

There are two problems with this however:

 

 

  1. It is not taking into account the various exceptional circumstance which seem to surround that scenario.
     
     
  2. Placing Nyriss on this list would be implying that Nyriss is the most powerful Dark Council member ever - and I do not feel we possess enough information to support such a bold assertion.

Well, check my response in the thread cited in post # 653.

Edited by S_W_LeGenD
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That I'm afraid does not change anything.

Of-course! You and the other two (Triumvirate) are in the same fence; good at finding excuses to lowball TOR era characters.

 

Prove it that Meetra is underpowered on Dromund Kaas.

Edited by S_W_LeGenD
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Of-course! You and the other two (Triumvirate) are in the same fence; good at finding excuses to lowball TOR era characters.

 

Prove it that Meetra is underpowered on Dromund Kaas.

Lol what? I was referring to this fact:

 

Placing Nyriss on this list would be implying that Nyriss is the most powerful Dark Council member ever - and I do not feel we possess enough information to support such a bold assertion.

 

How about you calm down, then prove to me that Nyriss is the most powerful Dark Council member in galactic history, and while your at it point me to the place where I said that Nyriss was at all weak.

 

Oh and dark side nexuses have the effect of limiting one's connection to the light side of the Force, Meetra draws on the light side of the Force, therefore naturally her connection would be weakened. There is your proof.

 

EDIT:

 

"I have not been (supposedly) rude to you since several posts. Will you acknowledge this or will you continue to berate me? LEARN to move on; you have made your concerns clear long ago and I have acted according to them since then...

 

...Instead of harboring some sort of grudge against me, focus on my arguments from neutral perspective. We are involved in a discussion; not a contest in which our lives at stake. Take this all easy and enjoy the discussions."

 

Guess that attitude went out the window... :rolleyes:

Edited by Beniboybling
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Lol what? I was referring to this fact:

 

Placing Nyriss on this list would be implying that Nyriss is the most powerful Dark Council member ever - and I do not feel we possess enough information to support such a bold assertion.

This isn't the case. Nyriss making to this list would confirm my position about Dark Council members being dark side prodigies and not to be underestimated. Also, Nyriss is certainly not the strongest Dark Council member in history.

 

How about you calm down, then prove to me that Nyriss is the most powerful Dark Council member in galactic history, and while your at it point me to the place where I said that Nyriss was at all weak.

Nyriss isn't the most powerful Dark Council member in history but she is most likely stronger then any Sith Lord whom Meetra had previously encountered. An argument can be made in favor of Nihilus but he is excluded from your list.

 

Oh and dark side nexuses have the effect of limiting one's connection to the light side of the Force, Meetra draws on the light side of the Force, therefore naturally her connection would be weakened. There is your proof.

The example of HoT counters your assertion. In-fact, Dooku couldn't overwhelm Yoda on Vjun.

 

Best possible explanation is that different Force-users vary in their capacity to cope with unfavorable settings.

 

EDIT:

 

"I have not been (supposedly) rude to you since several posts. Will you acknowledge this or will you continue to berate me? LEARN to move on; you have made your concerns clear long ago and I have acted according to them since then...

 

...Instead of harboring some sort of grudge against me, focus on my arguments from neutral perspective. We are involved in a discussion; not a contest in which our lives at stake. Take this all easy and enjoy the discussions."

 

Guess that attitude went out the window... :rolleyes:

Where is the attitude in my recent posts? Stop being paranoid.

 

Also, the kind of attitude some members are showing towards me is not helping my situation either. Ask them to put their attitude under check as well.

Edited by S_W_LeGenD
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This isn't the case. Nyriss making to this list would confirm my position about Dark Council members being dark side prodigies and not to be underestimated. Also, Nyriss is certainly not the strongest Dark Council member in history.
But you just said its the case, just there, in bold, right there. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say Marr is the strongest, but unfortunately we lack the information to say if he stronger than x, y and z. So we have no choice but to exclude the entire Dark Council altogether until more information comes to light.
The example of HoT counters your assertion. In-fact, Dooku couldn't overwhelm Yoda on Vjun.

 

Best possible explanation is that different Force-users vary in their capacity to cope with unfavorable settings.

The Hero of Tython was most likely aided by the spirit of Orgus Din, who helped him overcome the Emperor's dark side influence a short while before. This is the only explanation for the assertion that is made in the Chapter that for some reason only the HoT can resist the Emperor's mind control.

 

And your 'vary' theory is simply more powerful Force users being able to survive nexuses, while lesser Force users are weaker. Yet Yoda is certainly not a lacking Force user. Indicating that even the most powerful of Force users would be effected by the dark side nexus.

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5. Exar Kun

6. Darth Krayt

7. Darth Vader

 

Which would be my change, this is what I propose we debate.

I'd like to get this debate back on track by focusing on this issue.

 

Concerning Krayt vs Vader, I came across a very good comparison on ComicVine supporting Vader over Krayt, its all a little disjointed and with some scans thrown in there so I'll just provide the link:

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/b_tank/blog/darth-vader-vs-darth-krayt/68229/ - pg 2

 

I think what is most poignant is that Karness Muur regards Vader as very powerful and worthy of the talisman, whereas he regards Krayt's powers as moot. Even when bolstered post-resurrection I don't think Krayt matches Vader.

 

There is definitely an argument to be had concerning Exar Kun vs Vader however.

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But you just said its the case, just there, in bold, right there. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say Marr is the strongest, but unfortunately we lack the information to say if he stronger than x, y and z.

My guess is the same; Marr being the strongest among the known ones. SWTORE sourcebook makes a good case for him.

 

So we have no choice but to exclude the entire Dark Council altogether until more information comes to light.

Since this is your thread; your call...

 

The Hero of Tython was most likely aided by the spirit of Orgus Din, who helped him overcome the Emperor's dark side influence a short while before. This is the only explanation for the assertion that is made in the Chapter that for some reason only the HoT can resist the Emperor's mind control.

You are correct about Din assisting HoT in developing some level of resistance against the telepathic abilities of Sith Emperor (Vitiate). However, Din's assistance to HoT have not been implied during HoT's second encounter with Sith Emperor (Vitiate); HoT certainly had help from his droid in this encounter, as per revelation from the game. It might be a "strike team" of some sorts but I am not sure about how this fight will be perceived in future content.

 

And your 'vary' theory is simply more powerful Force users being able to survive nexuses, while lesser Force users are weaker. Yet Yoda is certainly not a lacking Force user. Indicating that even the most powerful of Force users would be effected by the dark side nexus.

Every individual have distinguishing strengths and weaknesses; Meetra didn't experience negative effects on the same level on Dromund Kaas as some Jedi in the future did when they visited this world.

 

Their is another decent example: Malachor V didn't break Revan but it negatively influenced and/or corrupted many others.

Edited by S_W_LeGenD
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Personally, the only thing on this list that should be corrected is Traya, but she's so much worshipped on this forum, that I'll not even lost my time trying to argue against her.

 

I'm not critiscizing anyone, guys, my opinion is not better or "more" right than yours, I'm just stating what I feel, it's hard to argue against Traya here, sometimes I think people exaggerate about her. She doesn't need to be a elite top-tier character in terms of power to be one of the best characters of EU, which she cerainly is.

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Exar Kun vs. Vader. I see them to be very close. I think it depends on what you appreciate more: esoteric or basic mastery.

 

Yep, and as always I am a guy that appreciates basic mastery, lets put it this way when talking about a martial arts if you go on and learn the more advanced forms and try to fight a guy who has mastered the basics, the guy who has mastered the basics will kick you to the curb, sure you know some fancy stuff but the guy with the basics is practiced and a much truer master just my 2 cents :D

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Personally, the only thing on this list that should be corrected is Traya, but she's so much worshipped on this forum, that I'll not even lost my time trying to argue against her.

 

I'm not critiscizing anyone, guys, my opinion is not better or "more" right than yours, I'm just stating what I feel, it's hard to argue against Traya here, sometimes I think people exaggerate about her. She doesn't need to be a elite top-tier character in terms of power to be one of the best characters of EU, which she cerainly is.

That's not very fair on the rest of the community to call us biased and 'worshippers' when you haven't actually made any attempt to reason your position. Don't expect anyone to agree with you on that alone.

 

But I did a basic comparison on the BattleZone thread:

 

===============================

 

Traya was a master of Force healing, able to bring herself and others from the brink of. Bane on the other hand was susceptible to poison and on two occasions required medical attention to heal himself.

 

Traya had highly attuned senses, foregoing the use of her eyesight to see through the Force and being able to sense beings, even droids, from considerable distances away. Her skills in foresight where also exceptional, able to see across centuries into the future. Bane has never shown anything other than above-average sense abilities.

 

Traya was able to drain the life force of three powerful Jedi Masters simultaneously. Whereas Bane required a dark side nexus create a Force draining field around him - which would otherwise have exhausted him.

 

===============================

 

I expect people say Bane because he's fried people with lightning and brought down buildings, but we have to remember that we can only compare feats that both parties share. And unfortunately being a purely in-game character Traya has not been able to show her proficiency in these talents.

 

That said, we could note that despite being severed from the Force Traya was still able to lift and manipulate a trio of lightsabers - which IMO is quite an impressive display of telekinesis.

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Yep, and as always I am a guy that appreciates basic mastery, lets put it this way when talking about a martial arts if you go on and learn the more advanced forms and try to fight a guy who has mastered the basics, the guy who has mastered the basics will kick you to the curb, sure you know some fancy stuff but the guy with the basics is practiced and a much truer master just my 2 cents :D

 

As a martial artist since the age of three, that couldn't be more wrong, when a master of Muay Boran came across a master of the much more basic Kung Fu, the Kung Fu master got dismantled easily, why? he'd never seen it before, he'd seen Karate, Muay Thai itself, he had seen Akido and taikwondo, all the others, but he'd never seen this, the Kung Fu master couldnt defend himself because the Muay Boran practitioner was too unpredictable.

 

That would perfectly fit the bill here with Exar Kun.

 

Exar Kun mastered Alchemy, Sorcery and many basic force techniques and once he'd absorbed the Massassi, he'd just gained the power of half a million Dark Side creatures, who the hell knows how much more powerful he was after that, but when he realised the Jedi plan, he cheated death instead and used Essence Transfer, without ever hearing of it, to transcend into something between an essence and a spirit.

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That said, we could note that despite being severed from the Force Traya was still able to lift and manipulate a trio of lightsabers - which IMO is quite an impressive display of telekinesis.

 

 

As well as I and trust me I am no fan of traya, I question a lot of her capabilities since we have to assume a lot of them I was the same way with Revan and the Exile before their inclusion in the Revan novel, kind of a philosophy thing to "question everything" games are hard to judge that way unfortunately even video can be hard to decipher every movement made as a "picture is worth a thousand words" getting the right words can be difficult ;).

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As a martial artist since the age of three, that couldn't be more wrong, when a master of Muay Boran came across a master of the much more basic Kung Fu, the Kung Fu master got dismantled easily, why? he'd never seen it before, he'd seen Karate, Muay Thai itself, he had seen Akido and taikwondo, all the others, but he'd never seen this, the Kung Fu master couldnt defend himself because the Muay Boran practitioner was too unpredictable.

 

That would perfectly fit the bill here with Exar Kun.

 

Exar Kun mastered Alchemy, Sorcery and many basic force techniques and once he'd absorbed the Massassi, he'd just gained the power of half a million Dark Side creatures, who the hell knows how much more powerful he was after that, but when he realised the Jedi plan, he cheated death instead and used Essence Transfer, without ever hearing of it, to transcend into something between an essence and a spirit.

 

but that wasn't what I was talking about here both have taken to training the same martial art, "The Force" but Vader has taken to refine the basics of "The force" while Kun has moved ahead to more advanced techniques with out refining the basics of the martial art.

 

 

This would be like a Kung Fu student that has practiced and drilled the basics fully to the point of mastery vs a Kung Fu student who was impatient and moved into more advanced movements of Kung Fu before mastering the basics. The example you gave is not what I was talking about.

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But surely in mastering the advanced aspects of the Force, Exar Kun has proven is mastery over the basic aspects?

 

but not to the same degree that's the point, no where near the same degree in fact since he has (to my knowledge) never telekinetically levitated and flung objects while simultaneously dueling with a lightsaber, nor has he had force pushes of the same strength or been able to move objects as large as vader, nor has his force valor or speed been described on the same level, nor his ability to resist pain, all basic applications of the force that Vader has far exceeded him in and are much easier to scale power as the feats Kun did few know how much actual power is needed do to their scorcery nature, who is more powerful is kind of up to opinion, but you all know I don't hold scorcery any where near the same lvl as other applications as its a bit more unknown as to how it works or how much power of the user is actually needed instead of how much power of the environment.

Edited by tunewalker
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Exar Kun mastered Alchemy, Sorcery and many basic force techniques and once he'd absorbed the Massassi, he'd just gained the power of half a million Dark Side creatures, who the hell knows how much more powerful he was after that, but when he realised the Jedi plan, he cheated death instead and used Essence Transfer, without ever hearing of it, to transcend into something between an essence and a spirit.
Actually Exar Kun learned of the Jedi's approach and then performed the ritual which he used to transcend his bodily form. The Jedi however stopped him from escaping by creating a wall of light.

 

So while the feat itself is notable, the power he achieved does not come under the power of his corporeal being. Because his body was presumably destroyed when he absorbed all that energy.

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but that wasn't what I was talking about here both have taken to training the same martial art, "The Force" but Vader has taken to refine the basics of "The force" while Kun has moved ahead to more advanced techniques with out refining the basics of the martial art.

 

 

This would be like a Kung Fu student that has practiced and drilled the basics fully to the point of mastery vs a Kung Fu student who was impatient and moved into more advanced movements of Kung Fu before mastering the basics. The example you gave is not what I was talking about.

 

The difference is little.

 

Sith Sorcery and normal Dark Side abilities are not the same thing at all, you also assume Kun does not know these basic abilities himself, he was highly proficient in Force Flight, Force Speed, Force Wave, Mind Crush, Force Choke, Force Lightning and had very powerful Force Barriers, as well as an extremely proficient Force Sense that allowed him to sense other powerful Dark Siders and even sense the danger his apprentice Qel-Droma was in,

and whilst he didn't use these abilities as much as he could have, Force Blast was merely his pet favourite ability and for good reason too.

 

If we actually went into a battle of force powers between the two, Vader would lose every time, why? he'd have no defence against a pure blast of Dark Side energy, force barriers do nothing, lightsaber blocks do nothing, telekinesis does nothing, as we saw when Bane tried to defend himself against Dark Side Tendrils, which are made of exactly the same thing, Vader would just be killed by a continuous assault.

 

The only person that could match his Force Blast technique was the Sorceress Aleema Keto and that is because she could defend against other Sorcery, Kun could clearly do the same, he not only took the full brunt of her attack and absorbed it, he redirected it and empowered it with his own, even though she partially defended against it, she got knocked out and then Force Waved into the wall.

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Actually Exar Kun learned of the Jedi's approach and then performed the ritual which he used to transcend his bodily form. The Jedi however stopped him from escaping by creating a wall of light.

 

So while the feat itself is notable, the power he achieved does not come under the power of his corporeal being. Because his body was presumably destroyed when he absorbed all that energy.

 

Incorrect, I have the Tales of the Jedi, this is an assumption made by historians, he absorbed the Massassi race with his knowledge of Sorcery and Alchemy and then used a ritual, apparently his own variation of the Essence Transfer technique, which he never learned according to the sources, to transcend his body and become an Essence, he was probably going to go to a number of worlds where he could use this same technique to reconstruct his own body with alchemy, he revealed this plan and the sacrifice he was going to use to enhance his own powers to Luke Skywalker.

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The difference is little.

 

Sith Sorcery and normal Dark Side abilities are not the same thing at all, you also assume Kun does not know these basic abilities himself, he was highly proficient in Force Flight, Force Speed, Force Wave, Mind Crush, Force Choke, Force Lightning and had very powerful Force Barriers, as well as an extremely proficient Force Sense that allowed him to sense other powerful Dark Siders and even sense the danger his apprentice Qel-Droma was in,

and whilst he didn't use these abilities as much as he could have, Force Blast was merely his pet favourite ability and for good reason too.

 

If we actually went into a battle of force powers between the two, Vader would lose every time, why? he'd have no defence against a pure blast of Dark Side energy, force barriers do nothing, lightsaber blocks do nothing, telekinesis does nothing, as we saw when Bane tried to defend himself against Dark Side Tendrils, which are made of exactly the same thing, Vader would just be killed by a continuous assault.

 

The only person that could match his Force Blast technique was the Sorceress Aleema Keto and that is because she could defend against other Sorcery, Kun could clearly do the same, he not only took the full brunt of her attack and absorbed it, he redirected it and empowered it with his own, even though she partially defended against it, she got knocked out and then Force Waved into the wall.

 

but since force barriers are not a defense against it, it isn't very indicative of power, he could do this against any one who doesn't have knowledge of the technique (Caedus, Luke) and presumably kill them, begs the question that if he could do this in his spirit form as was suggested why he didn't do so to Luke since he very clearly tried to kill him, honestly I am becoming more and more skeptic that things work quite so black and white, I believe your assessment is purely wrong what evidence do you have that the blasts didn't have to go through force shields and that the people he hit with them weren't just weak beyond your own opinion. Like I said question everything, but still he didn't show those other abilities near the same lvl and they are far easier to gauge since we know how they work and that they require no outside thing. Sorcery is a different beast that requires more then the users power and could potentially be pulling on the power of the surroundings as such I can not nor ever will see it as truly indicative of power.

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