What's fun about rolling through everything in only a few attempts? There is nothing fun about a tank and spank. The fun part of raiding is coordinating, learning the mechanics, and then finally downing the boss. That's where the real satisfaction comes from. If my guild could do HM Denova like how we can do HM EV and KP then there would be no point to the loot anyways. We actually enjoyed wiping and learning the fights. If you are having a hard time with the damage the bosses do then stack ranged dps (who shouldn't be taking any damage). If you are still having issues with taking too much damage then you have a problem with the mechanics.

It took my guild way more than a week to clear EV on normal mode.

 

It took us way more than a week to clear KP on normal mode.

 

We cleared EC on story mode in a week, and it wasn't particularly difficult. We made it way harder than it needed to be by doing the first 3 bosses on 16 man (and would have had the 4th down if our main tank didn't need to log off)-- Bioware still hasn't fixed the 8/16 man balance.

 

To give you an idea of how NOT hardcore my guild is: I've wiped 30+ times on the 2nd boss in the new HM FP with two different groups (all guild members), the majority of us in full Rakata. I still haven't killed him.

 

If we can clear EC in story mode in a week, I just can't imagine it's overtuned. I'm sorry, I hate the false-bragging-by-claiming-the-content-is-easy tactic as much as the next guy, and it bugs me to know some of you are going to think that's what I'm doing, but... it really, truly isn't hard.

 

If any of your raid is wearing even 1 piece of Rakata gear, then you are overgeared for storymode EC. Please keep that mind.

 

So yeah, if most of your guild is wearing 60% or more Rakata, then storymode EC is going to seem easier than it really is for those following the storymode progression path. This is much like 25man guilds returning to 10man difficulty in WoW Wrath and claiming 10man was easymode. Yeah, sure it is, when you overgear the place.

What's fun about rolling through everything in only a few attempts? There is nothing fun about a tank and spank. The fun part of raiding is coordinating, learning the mechanics, and then finally downing the boss. That's where the real satisfaction comes from. If my guild could do HM Denova like how we can do HM EV and KP then there would be no point to the loot anyways. We actually enjoyed wiping and learning the fights. If you are having a hard time with the damage the bosses do then stack ranged dps (who shouldn't be taking any damage). If you are still having issues with taking too much damage then you have a problem with the mechanics.

 

I don't think anyone is saying hardmode Denova is too hard. People were talking about storymode.

I don't think anyone is saying hardmode Denova is too hard. People were talking about storymode.

 

Im comparing a full rakata group doing HM denova to a lesser geared group doing story mode denova. We have more fun in HM because it is more challenging. Likewise, lesser geared groups should have fun experiencing the challenge and then overcoming it. There is no point to any content if it is too easy for its intended audience.

Im comparing a full rakata group doing HM denova to a lesser geared group doing story mode denova. We have more fun in HM because it is more challenging. Likewise, lesser geared groups should have fun experiencing the challenge and then overcoming it. There is no point to any content if it is too easy for its intended audience.

 

You have to remember the target audience. You are far more likely to find people willing to beat their heads against the wall 10 to 20 times a night for hardmode kills than you are for storymode kills.

 

Seriously, not everyone desires challenging group-oriented content. That is why the hardmode/nightmare mode switches exist.

 

If you don't believe me, then go peek at WoW's current raiding absorption numbers between LFR, Normal and Hardmodes.

Why is it that the raid are too hard instead of you are too bad of a player???

 

 

 

Nothing is too hard, as long as you are a good player. Bad players should not be able to faceroll though raids, raids are for RAIDERS.

Why is it that the raid are too hard instead of you are too bad of a player???

 

 

 

Nothing is too hard, as long as you are a good player. Bad players should not be able to faceroll though raids, raids are for RAIDERS.

 

Please define what makes a "raider" to you.

 

I've been raiding off and on, both hardcore and casual since 2001. I'm curious what your definition is.

Why is it that the raid are too hard instead of you are too bad of a player???

 

 

 

Nothing is too hard, as long as you are a good player. Bad players should not be able to faceroll though raids, raids are for RAIDERS.

 

Yea! Story mode should be for the top 10% of players and hm for the top 5% with nmm for the top 1%, screw the rest of you guys.

I am no stranger to hard content; i ran a progression guild after wow's launch; at that time it was coordinating 40 people per raid on Ragnaros. We were in ****** in blues running 12 hour /day progression trying for server and world firsts, we would log off inside the instance to continue raiding the next day. And there were no youtubes videos or strategy articles, You came up with strategies as you went along to the problems you observed. I do understand the rush and drive and satisfaction with all this.

 

I don't care if they make hard and nightmare twice as hard as it is now; from some of the posts in this thread talking about how easy it is, completing hard mode 4/4 within a week. You guys SHOULD have a challenge because that's what its all about for you.

 

There's obviously a wide gamut of casualness within 'casual players', but from people i know::

 

• You would call them 'baddies', they make mistakes, tunnel vision, have lame gear etc. But they're not unintelligent, they just aren't the type to research how to balance their stats and maximize their rotations etc.
  
• Many are real-life friends, colleagues etc, If you want to play with your friends, you need to consider raid balance as much as you can, but, its not simply a matter of 'only raid with capable players', that's contrary to the point of enjoying the experience 'with your friends'
  
• They're engineers and managers and housewives, who also want to spend time with their kids, maybe they play to escape from the stress of their day-to-day, maybe they alternate with console games when and if they have time, and most of them play for the 'social aspect', to hang out with their friend who may have moved across the country and experience something together.
  

 

Well these players have been playing all the content so far, 4 months in they've done the flash-points and some story-mode EV/KP. Now BW has released a patch, which has awesome new content right? new stuff to do and explore? banners across the launcher and website saying 'check out the cool new content we've made for you', why did they release content? it's to keep players interested in playing the game for a while, so that we keep paying our monthly subscription so they can all remain employed.

 

Its not a matter of expecting something for nothing, being handed loot for free, its about wanting to have some fun and see some new content, if you put that out of reach and say only really good players can get new content then these people will get bored and stop playing.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Crankyhobo

I am no stranger to hard content; i ran a progression guild after wow's launch; at that time it was coordinating 40 people per raid on Ragnaros. We were in ****** in blues running 12 hour /day progression trying for server and world firsts, we would log off inside the instance to continue raiding the next day. And there were no youtubes videos or strategy articles, You came up with strategies as you went along to the problems you observed. I do understand the rush and drive and satisfaction with all this.

 

I don't care if they make hard and nightmare twice as hard as it is now; from some of the posts in this thread talking about how easy it is, completing hard mode 4/4 within a week. You guys SHOULD have a challenge because that's what its all about for you.

 

There's obviously a wide gamut of casualness within 'casual players', but from people i know::

 

• You would call them 'baddies', they make mistakes, tunnel vision, have lame gear etc. But they're not unintelligent, they just aren't the type to research how to balance their stats and maximize their rotations etc.
  
• Many are real-life friends, colleagues etc, If you want to play with your friends, you need to consider raid balance as much as you can, but, its not simply a matter of 'only raid with capable players', that's contrary to the point of enjoying the experience 'with your friends'
  

 

Well these players have been playing all the content so far, 4 months in they've done the flash-points and some story-mode EV/KP. Now BW has released a patch, which has awesome new content right? new stuff to do and explore? banners across the launcher and website saying 'check out the cool new content we've made for you', why did they release content? it's to keep players interested in playing the game for a while? so that we keep paying our monthly subscription so they can all remain employed.

 

Its not a matter of being expecting something for nothing, being handed loot for free, its about wanting to have some fun and see some new content, if you put that out of reach and say only really good players can get new content then these people will get bored and stop playing.

 

Well said, Crankyhobo, well said.

Progression is like a staircase. Storymode EV to KP is decent step. Storymode KP to Storymode EC is like having to climb a 6 foot ladder to get to the next step. This will cause a number of 1.1 raiders to reevaluate if TOR's operations are for them or not. While some of the more elitist raiders will not see a problem with that, I personally would rather have a significant portion of the playerbase see the content than not - it ensures that more content will be created in the future.

...except progression was meant to be SM EV --> SM KP --> HM EV --> HM KP --> SM EC. This is the way it's designed, and this is why SM EC drops slightly better loot than HM KP. EV and KP are the same tier of raiding, EC is the next step up.

 

As for extremely casual groups not being able to finish EC, the content is less than two weeks old. Strategies are still being developed. Not all boss mechanics are even known yet. More than once we've tried to follow a guide, only to realize that they were missing key dynamics of a fight and had to scrap it. I can all but guarantee that even pugs will be able to complete SM EC within a month unless they truly are that uncoordinated. If people just want to complete it without any difficulty, then they don't need to complete it immediately after the content is released, either, since they wouldn't care about progression.

...except progression was meant to be SM EV --> SM KP --> HM EV --> HM KP --> SM EC. This is the way it's designed, and this is why SM EC drops slightly better loot than HM KP. EV and KP are the same tier of raiding, EC is the next step up.

 

That is simply not true. According to the people who made the game story mode is supposed to be it's own progression path.

...except progression was meant to be SM EV --> SM KP --> HM EV --> HM KP --> SM EC. This is the way it's designed, and this is why SM EC drops slightly better loot than HM KP. EV and KP are the same tier of raiding, EC is the next step up.

 

No, storymode progression was not meant to include hardmode EV/KP. Why on earth would that still be called storymode progression at that point?

 

As for extremely casual groups not being able to finish EC, the content is less than two weeks old. Strategies are still being developed. Not all boss mechanics are even known yet. More than once we've tried to follow a guide, only to realize that they were missing key dynamics of a fight and had to scrap it. I can all but guarantee that even pugs will be able to complete SM EC within a month unless they truly are that uncoordinated. If people just want to complete it without any difficulty, then they don't need to complete it immediately after the content is released, either, since they wouldn't care about progression.

 

Extremely casual groups will not be able to down Zorn and Toth with consistency prior to nerfs. Pugs will not be making much progress in EC on a widespread basis until the more hardcore guilds are running alt pugs.

 

My ops group has already downed Zorn and Toth and to quote my raid leader, "storymode Zorn and Toth felt like what hardmode should be". It wasn't QQ, it was just a statement as we moved on deeper into the zone.

 

Some of you may like very challenging content but there is not enough paying hardcore raiders to keep the lights on in the Operations Design Department. There must be more of the playerbase seeing this content and that is what storymode is for. Yes, storymode needs to be nearly faceroll to keep the "extreme" casual playerbase engaged in the end game. There is hardmode and an upcoming nightmare mode to challenge those that seek more difficult challenges (which also includes my ops group).

 

Blizzard found this very thing out with Cataclysm.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Raeln

No, storymode progression was not meant to include hardmode EV/KP. Why on earth would that still be called storymode progression at that point?

 

 

 

Extremely casual groups will not be able to down Zorn and Toth with consistency prior to nerfs. Pugs will not be making much progress in EC on a widespread basis until the more hardcore guilds are running alt pugs.

 

My ops group has already downed Zorn and Toth and to quote my raid leader, "storymode Zorn and Toth felt like what hardmode should be". It wasn't QQ, it was just a statement as we moved on deeper into the zone.

 

Some of you may like very challenging content but there is not enough paying hardcore raiders to keep the lights on in the Operations Design Department. There must be more of the playerbase seeing this content and that is what storymode is for. Yes, storymode needs to be nearly faceroll to keep the "extreme" casual playerbase engaged in the end game. There is hardmode and an upcoming nightmare mode to challenge those that seek more difficult challenges (which also includes my ops group).

 

Blizzard found this very thing out with Cataclysm.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. One other thing I'd like to mention is directed at folks who would inevitably complain about storymode people getting awesome gear. Well, Storymode gear is Rakata, which will be not one, but TWO tiers of (set) gear behind the best possible, once NiM comes out. It's practically required for gearing to at least this level be significantly easier as the game ages in order to maintain a recruitment pool.

That's just crazy. I think it's perfectly valid to want a "story mode" where you can kill the bosses and see the content without being a "hardcore" guild, but being able to down every raid boss you encounter in 6 or fewer tries isn't raiding. Players that get frustrated that easily should realize that they don't enjoy raiding (there's nothing wrong with that) and find something else to do wiith their time.

 

Which brings us back to my other point. If people aren't raiding then the Devs need to make content for those people or they will get bored and quit.

 

Frankly, I'm fine with either solution. But raiders need to understand that if they want to exclude a large segment of the population then less raids are going to be made.

Can someone please point me exactly to where Bioware stated that story mode will be an easy walk in the park on it's own progression line for people to get free loot from?

 

Because try as hard as I might - I'm just not seeing that in any way shape or form, anywhere.

Can someone please point me exactly to where Bioware stated that story mode will be an easy walk in the park on it's own progression line for people to get free loot from?

 

Because try as hard as I might - I'm just not seeing that in any way shape or form, anywhere.

 

Here's the relevant quote

 

Bug-fixing is currently the highest priority for the Operation team. In future Operations (including the new one coming in patch 1.2), Nightmare mode will be made significantly more challenging, designed to tax even the most hardcore. On the flipside, Normal Mode is becoming Story Mode and will be even easier. The idea is that everyone will be able to see the content in Story Mode (right now only 38% of level-50 characters have stepped foot into an Operation), Hard Mode will be the main mode for organized guilds, and only the most elite players will beat Nightmare.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/09/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-old-republics-future/

that's not a dev statement, that's second hand on a website.

 

I want first hand.

that's not a dev statement, that's second hand on a website.

 

I want first hand.

 

Here's a video of the event

 

http://www.swtormovies.com/movieview.php?id=3145

 

Otherwise there are numerous transcripts:

 

2:27

ericmusco: 1.2 will introduce a new Operation, Explosive Conflict. Explosive conflict will ship in 1.2 with both Story and Hard difficulty, Nightmare difficulty will follow in a later patch and it is sure to be a challenge for all of you Operation players in the audience.

2:28

ericmusco: You may be asking yourself, what is Story difficulty? We have replaced Normal with Story, which is a difficulty level that has the intention of allowing all players to see our Operation content!

2:29

Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from? Before Wrath in WoW you HAD TO BE A GOOD PLAYER to clear any raid. Now people want to have the ability of a drunken monkey playing on acid and still clear all content. Sorry but where is the fun in walking into a raid and never wiping? Raiding should be hard it is the END GAME it is not PvP where just showing up gets you free loot, in raiding you must EARN it though teamwork and good play.

 

 

Personally i hope they make things harder so that there is a gear gap in the good PvEers and the bad ones. Only the people who are "sub-par" want easy mode raiding. I am well aware that it is content everyone wants to see, so instead of say "i am bad and can;t do it nerf it for me" become a better player or a better group and conquer the content.

I am no stranger to hard content; i ran a progression guild after wow's launch; at that time it was coordinating 40 people per raid on Ragnaros. We were in ****** in blues running 12 hour /day progression trying for server and world firsts, we would log off inside the instance to continue raiding the next day. And there were no youtubes videos or strategy articles, You came up with strategies as you went along to the problems you observed. I do understand the rush and drive and satisfaction with all this.

 

I don't care if they make hard and nightmare twice as hard as it is now; from some of the posts in this thread talking about how easy it is, completing hard mode 4/4 within a week. You guys SHOULD have a challenge because that's what its all about for you.

 

There's obviously a wide gamut of casualness within 'casual players', but from people i know::

 

• You would call them 'baddies', they make mistakes, tunnel vision, have lame gear etc. But they're not unintelligent, they just aren't the type to research how to balance their stats and maximize their rotations etc.
  
• Many are real-life friends, colleagues etc, If you want to play with your friends, you need to consider raid balance as much as you can, but, its not simply a matter of 'only raid with capable players', that's contrary to the point of enjoying the experience 'with your friends'
  
• They're engineers and managers and housewives, who also want to spend time with their kids, maybe they play to escape from the stress of their day-to-day, maybe they alternate with console games when and if they have time, and most of them play for the 'social aspect', to hang out with their friend who may have moved across the country and experience something together.
  

 

Well these players have been playing all the content so far, 4 months in they've done the flash-points and some story-mode EV/KP. Now BW has released a patch, which has awesome new content right? new stuff to do and explore? banners across the launcher and website saying 'check out the cool new content we've made for you', why did they release content? it's to keep players interested in playing the game for a while, so that we keep paying our monthly subscription so they can all remain employed.

 

Its not a matter of expecting something for nothing, being handed loot for free, its about wanting to have some fun and see some new content, if you put that out of reach and say only really good players can get new content then these people will get bored and stop playing.

 

Perfectly presented. I try to say stuff like this but it usually comes out as FFFFFUUU BW!

Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from? Before Wrath in WoW you HAD TO BE A GOOD PLAYER to clear any raid. Now people want to have the ability of a drunken monkey playing on acid and still clear all content. Sorry but where is the fun in walking into a raid and never wiping? Raiding should be hard it is the END GAME it is not PvP where just showing up gets you free loot, in raiding you must EARN it though teamwork and good play.

 

 

Personally i hope they make things harder so that there is a gear gap in the good PvEers and the bad ones. Only the people who are "sub-par" want easy mode raiding. I am well aware that it is content everyone wants to see, so instead of say "i am bad and can;t do it nerf it for me" become a better player or a better group and conquer the content.

 

WoW became a huge success when it made all the content and gear accessible.

 

If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?

Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from?

 

IDK where does the "entitlement" to hard raid content come from? How is you wanting the difficulty set where you want it different than someone else wanting it set where they want?

WoW became a huge success when it made all the content and gear accessible.

 

If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?

 

it had more growth when Raiding was gated then when they didn't. During BC they has 120% population increase during wrath they had 1%. Which way made their company grow more now?

Where did these only "10%" of the playerbase can raid and complete story mode come from? I think most of you are full of **** and lying to prove a point. If that were really happening BW would have already tweaked it. But it's not, the majority of players are finding the raiding engaging and decently balanced. Those of you that fall under that bar need to do some research. And no its not necessary you can ask in game, you can get with a better guild, many things you can do. But sacrificing 10-15 minutes of your time to read about the fights or your class wont kill you. Learn to be nerds.

 

Most casual gamers arent sticking around because they're casual. They bounce from game to game because they want to find the perfect one balanced around them. But the game is made of many different types of players, and they have to cater to all... when you know the casuals will try it and get hooked and get better, or just leave in a few months anyways, why base the game around them?

Edited April 24, 2012 by Valhalyn