So in the older days of mmos Most tanks were leaders, they were GMs for the most part, they were helping and guiding everyone in raids, im curious i have a tank, hes reasonably geared, ready to do EC HM/ TFB SM

 

my question is does a tank HAVE to be in a leadership position? For instance, we do TFB, i know that in phase 2 of last boss, the melee dps and tanks are required to move out of spit/slam(i think) im not sure why, i just know they have to or they take a massive amount of dmg if they dont, also the guys in TS call it out when its happening....

 

 

does a tank HAVE to do that? (or is that a raid leaders job?)

 

I play a healer as my main, and iv done every fight in game, and know them all, but i know only as much as i have to know about the fights so that i, or anyone else doesnt die, and i know the fights only from the prespective of a healer or a ranged dps...

 

my question is should i be worried if im gonna start tanking on my vanguard about these things? Explaining all the details of the fights, or explaining the fights (Ok guys,you move there, you move to that platform etc etc)

You don't have to be a leader, but as a tank I often find I have to know the most about the mechanics of the fight, compared to the other members of the group, while they are certainly relevant some things are more relevant for tanks than to other roles. Often times I do find myself in a leadership position as a tank because of this, even if I am not the leader of the group I will often be the de facto leader as I am often the one explaining mechanics and calling out certain things I notice over the course of the battle. I think this is also partly because the tank is the one who leads the way, but I think this has less to do with it. Personally I think it is simply because the tank is the one who has to change their strategy the most over the course of the fight, and so you tend to get a better grasp of the way the mechanics interact with each other.

 

Basically, you don't have to lead as a tank if you don't want to, though I find myself often thrust into that position, whether it is due to my role or my personality or perhaps both I am not entirely sure.

 

Edit: after rereading your post, yes, you will probably have to call out mechanics, but that is because they are affecting you and to alert the others (healers, mainly) so they can adjust accordingly, rather than the fact that you are doing it because you are leading.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Taleek

Come to think of it, in my Ops groups, the GM or the officers will generally do the explaining or the details of the strategy for the fight, not the tanks usually

 

 

#edit

 

how do i call stuff out? Is there some sort of an indication when TFB spits, that the tanks see? or they know beforehand everyone else? how do they know the timing etc??? Is there some subtle signal they are waiting for that they can see because theyr so upclose to the boss?

Edited November 11, 2012 by Darth_Bond

Tanks don't HAVE to be the leaders, but its usually assumed that the tank knows the fight mechanics. Combined with the tank being the first one into combat (ideally) and having to control the flow of the fight, you usually end up directing (or leading) the rest of the group, especially in PUGs.

 

In terms of calling stuff out in TS: it depends on the group. I'm the MT for my group and I usually call out stuff because it makes my life easier if we're ready. I also pay a lot of attention to the boss animations and cast bars so I tend to notice these things before our raid leader. That isn't to say that I should, just that I do. Similarly, if our healers notice someone standing in an AoE they call it out. We run with a "if your the first one to see it, call it" mentality, some groups run with a "the raid leader and MT are the only ones that should be talking during a fight" mentality. Just roll with whatever the group does.

Generally as a tank you are watching the boss's castbar like a hawk, this is usually because as a tank you are the one who is relied upon mostly to interrupt (don't ask me why, I love it when dps do it too, but it is generally considered "the tank's job", which I find incredibly annoying), and also because you need to know when to fire your defensive CDs if a big hit is coming. This is usually how you know about when certain attacks are coming, others you just have to get a sense for when it happens, which is usually through repeated wipes x3. Spit I believe has a castbar though I don't recall right off since I haven't done enough of TFB to know for sure.

 

Certain bosses also do have audio/visual cues for when certain things are about to happen, like Firebrand and Stormcaller have that announcement that comes when fight conditions are about to change. Or Kephess in TFB has the "focused laser beam on blabla" message that pops up.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Taleek

I find it easier to not have the tanks be the one leading the raid or assault. In the groups I am in usually we have either one of the DPS or the healers be the leader, the ones guiding the whole group through battles and raids.

I find it easier to not have the tanks be the one leading the raid or assault. In the groups I am in usually we have either one of the DPS or the healers be the leader, the ones guiding the whole group through battles and raids.

 

When learning I find that the tank tends to notice what the boss is doing, the healers tend to notice player HP mechanics like DoTs and debuffs the ranged DPS tend to notice what other players are doing. When it comes to Ops leading I agree that a tank isn't the best option as they have a giant boss in front of them and often can't see what the rest of the group is doing. If you can rely on everyone not to stuff up, tanks are in a great position to be the leaders.

I have found that good communication with your co-tank to be much more important overall. There is nothing worse than 2 tanks who don't say boo to one another.

 

Raid leadership really is a collaborative thing, everyone needs to be aware of the situation. But I can see why some raids opt for a set leader, if only to keep vent chatter manageable. Tanks have a certain amount of expectation placed on them, and I think people look on tanks to lead because of past mmo's.

 

I would say a dps is in a much more ideal position to take charge of a group, but it really comes down to the person. Perhaps tanking classes attract certain kind of people who prefer to take charge (control freaks ).

Edited November 12, 2012 by Marb

I've found that its best to just let that person who likes to talk all the time take the lead. You can't really shut him up anyway. You all got one I'm sure, LOL.

 

But seriously, if you run the same group all the time everyone knows their part for each fight.

I just recently started running Operations, and I have to say I was quite nervous. As you stated, Tanks are generally the leaders of the groups, so going into an area I am unfamiliar with and being expected to lead is a bit nerve racking.

 

I ended up going onto Youtube and Torhead and learning about each boss fight. I then used my programmable keyboard to pre-type in instructions for each phase of each boss fight. I told the raid I would be giving the warnings and to watch for my messages mid-fight and it went very well.

 

This may be a bit overkill, and most people likely do not own a programmable keyboard, but it sure worked well for me!

^ damn programmable keyboards?

 

 

anyway yeah its probably prudent to youtube/torhead the fights....apart from thats it was def overkill

It tends to be a natural job for the tank or a dps. Both of those are focused on the bosses, with the tanks generally never looking away. DPS sometimes has to take out adds, or move, or hit switches, etc. which can make it harder to keep track of the boss but this is only on certain fights. DPS, especially ranged, do tend to have a better view of the overall "battlefield" though.

 

Healers tend to make poorer leaders mid-fight as most of the mechanics are based on the boss's remaining health, and healers never look at the boss. Not to say they can't, but it's less natural.

yeah tanks or ranged dps are generally best suited to this job, melee dps are completely blind for the most part

yeah tanks or ranged dps are generally best suited to this job, melee dps are completely blind for the most part

 

This ^

 

Tanks are essentially group leaders, since they're counted on to manage the pulls and the flow of the fights. They are also always on the boss, and most aware of mechanics and when they will occur. I don't really think it's "expected" for tanks to assume the leadership role, but most do out of necessity.

 

RDPS make the best raid leaders in my opinion. They generally don't need to avoid fight mechanics and their rotations are systematic. Additionally, because they're further away, they have a better view of what's going on. In a lot of encounters, the boss fills the entire viewing area of the tank.

It is expected of them to be leaders, atleast thats the expectation passed down from previous MMOs imo

Depends on the fight.

 

Ex: In soa's last phase, I'm pretty much leading since I'm the one calling "ready to be on boss" when I'm about to introduce a pillar to his head.

 

In kephess the undying in TFB, healer or ranged dps calls who have the nanite, and I call the pylon I'm dragging him toward.

 

I'm in a casual guild, and i'd say we all use our own leadership. Ops leaders and more experienced players explain mechanic pre-fight, and decide of the tactic we'll use, then once in the ones who calls the shot depends on his position mainly, and coordinate others.

 

However, no matter your position, never hesitate to step up if no one is doing it. On my DPS sorc, I once pugged SM EV and it was chaos on Soa. Offtank forgot the tank part of his job, and when main tank got mindtrapped, soa started running after our healers with him never realizing it, 2 dps where hitting on the shield rather than mindtraps, main tank died, none of the healer rezed him, I was the one to run and do it.

 

In organized guild raid, you will mostly fall into natural teamwork and those thing are pretty much taking care of themselves. In pug, don't hesitate to pick up leadership if no one is, and you have the knowledge for it.