This is a pretty sanctimonious post if you don't think that's exactly what everyone is trying to discuss here. Ranick posted something very accurate about 2 BT for maras as an example, which is not fair and balanced for everyone and counter to your whole post and you skated right over it. The original idea I had for this was to be fair and balanced for the community. If you thought it was to glorify one class more than another, then you are simply not reading it well.

... And you ignored the fact that he would prefer for Marauders to parse without Bloodthirst. Which honestly I agree with as well (Sents can have Inspiration though. jk). Also, assuming 3600 DPS before Inspiration on the 1.5 million dummy, the DPS gain from double Inspiration would be 39. Assuming 1 million Dummy and 3600 DPS before Inspiration, the DPS gain from 1 Inspiration would be 29.

He didn't make any factual points to refute or at least none that we don't already agree on as common knowledge. The ad hominem attacks came from him in the first place with talk about failing at obvious math, which has not been presented yet, but thanks for the lecture.

... Are we reading the same thread? You agreed with a post by Ranick who made an obvious mathematical failure along with a logical one. Which could logically be explained by saying that more time favors execute classes, when executes are % based (aka the time of the execute is irrelevant). While someone took the time to mathematically explain it here. Now, you could be agreeing with a different point, but you have completely ignored the obvious problem he was referring to.

And no, they came from you, starting here.

........at what point did you see me write something irrational? Am I foaming at the mouth in some post somewhere that I am not aware of? I even said I was leaning toward a 1.5 million HP dummy....like.....at no point did I say it was a bad thing, but there are several factors to consider and it's worth discussing them. Did you just get out of college or something, learn a bunch of cliches to use in a debate, and were thirsty to try them out in a way that's a complete overreaction?

 

Anyway, /thread for me. It was an idea. I'm glad the mods are in effect. I'm glad the 2.5 parsing criteria is changing and however it turns out, I'm sure people are going to put up some lofty standards. This is just too time consuming and exhausting to carry on.

There are some technical points that I don't understand here and that I feel contradict each other. Such as the simulating a raid/ops as much as possible with armor debuffs, yet somehow a mara/sent BT SHOULDNT be allowed?

If everyone could have a guildy give them a Bloodthirst/Inspiration, it would be fine. Unfortunately not everyone has that capability. Either everyone has it or no one does, or else it's not allowed.

For the record, I tend to agree with Ranick's points more than any others brought up here

Sigh... I tried to bring it back to logic, reason and facts, but it's clear you skimmed it all or skipped it entirely. I love how your last post gives 'credit' to the one person in the entire thread who's point was mathematically proven to be wrong.

I feel the overwhelming need to re-post my previous comment which sums up everything I need to say, in hopes that it will be seen by someone with a sense of logic and reason, by someone who doesn't claim out-right to no longer care about parsing.

On the topic of the dummy, though, I still think it needs to be a 1.5m dummy. People are putting up 3.9k parses with bounty hunter specs. When people like Beastfury parse carnage, and people like Claimed parse sabo bomb spec, you're going to get 4k parses minimum. Unfortunately, on a 1m HP dummy, a 4000-dps parse is only going to take 250 seconds, which is to say, ten seconds over 4 minutes. If you think the next tier of gear is not going to push that time under 4 minutes, you have another thing coming.

 

For now and for the future of parsing, we have to standardize it at 1.5m. That's not to say there can't be a separate blitz leaderboard (of 500k and 1m HP dummy parses) but the standard sustained DPS parse measurement must use a 1.5m dummy.

 

the leaderboard is designed to show sustained DPS. If we care about burst we can make a 500k dummy, but the point of it is sustained DPS. If a burst class has less sustained DPS, the point of the leaderboard is to show that.

 

The idea that execute-range classes are going to get more DPS out of a 1.5m dummy than a 1m dummy is absolutely ludicrous. If an Assassin, for example, has 2.7k DPS for the first 700k of a 1m dummy and 3k DPS for the other 300k of a 1m dummy, that's the exact same DPS as having 2.7k for the first 1050k of a 1.5m dummy and 3k DPS for the last 450k of a 1.5m dummy. The ratios are the exact same.

 

In addition, the idea to not use the armor debuff is absurd. The leaderboard is not about how well a DPS can perform on its own, it's about how well it performs in a raid scenario. That's why we're using the health monitors in the first place. That's the reason why we're using the armor debuff, and that's the reason why technically, we shouldn't allow Marauders to use bloodthirst. That's an entirely separate issue we should look at more closely later, but for now, I couldn't help but point out the obvious flaw in your comment.

 

the percentage of time spent under 30% should be basically the same and so the total dps will be roughly the same

 

for example if a dps did 3400 until under 30% then did 3550 the numbers would be.

1 mill

3400 71% 710,000 208.82

3550 29% 290,000 81.69

 

total time 290.51

total dps 3442.22

 

1.5 mill

3400 1,065,000 313.23

3550 435,000 122.53

 

total time 435.76

total dps 3442.26

 

so total dps difference is .04 dps

 

If my math is wrong please correct me

and if your point is that you just wont gain a boost from it and you're dps will fall from not being able to sustain dame that just makes idnewtons argument stronger since it indicates that you're dps is propped up by the short up time of the dummy.

 

The 1 mil dummy might be more convenient right now, but eventually you'd have to switch to using the 1.5 mil dummy. We had a nice run of parsing for 5 minutes prior to 2.5; players were able to get familiar with the format and tweak their rotation accordingly. Starting with the 1mil dummy and familiarizing ourselves with that pace - only to switch dummies when the next tier comes out - would just be silly.

 

After doing some thinking and some parsing, I have to agree that 1.5 mil health is the best way to go. What it comes down to is if you're complaining about having to parse for 7 minutes, then you clearly don't have enough interest in your class or spec to push yourself and maximize your DPS output.

 

idnewton has hit the nail on the head really as far as I'm concerned. Even now (with a bit of luck), some people are making a push towards 4k DPS. The next tier of gear will easily push the length of a 1million dummy fight down closer to 4 minutes rather than 5 minutes, which is simply too short.

 

I was arguing for the use of 1.5mil HP dummy parses to start with, instead of switching to them later.

 

I think parses barely over 4 minutes are ridiculously short, but I realize that's a subjective opinion and that most people don't think it gets too ridiculous until parses actually go under 4 minutes (next tier). Yes, a parse on the 1.5mil dummy would be 6.5 - 7 minutes long, but I doubt the next tier of gear would bring that down much below 6 minutes...

 

 

 

The idea to limit parses to a minimum of five minutes dates back to who knows when, and for obvious reasons. As I have stated time and again, the point of the leaderboard is for sustained DPS. It's also for a fair representation of raid ability. That is the point of the thread. That is why the following rules and restrictions should be in place:

 

1: 1.5M Dummy

2: Armor debuff

3: No Bloodthirst

 

These three rules will ensure the fairest comparison of spec ability without relying on lucky RNG to give you the best numbers. The fact is, parses will be 6-7 minutes. They will generate lower numbers than the 1M dummy. But that's the point. The point is to show an accurate reading of sustained DPS. Players don't rely on perfect RNG to get them through HM Ops fights (or at least, they shouldn't).

 

The other point to make, which I touched on briefly, is the dev feedback. The excuse Austin Peckenpaugh gave for Assassins and Shadows was that they relied heavily on the <30% damage bonus, didn't have an armor, and weren't able to use Assassinate. [source]. While this is true to some extent, some players believe (rightly, in my opinion) that Assassin/Shadow DPS is still low even after those restrictions and the 2.5 buffs. With a fair and balanced leaderboard, we can provide the top parses to the devs as hard evidence of a viability difference, and get some action. For the future of the game, this matters.

... And you ignored the fact that he would prefer for Marauders to parse without Bloodthirst. Which honestly I agree with as well (Sents can have Inspiration though. jk). Also, assuming 3600 DPS before Inspiration on the 1.5 million dummy, the DPS gain from double Inspiration would be 39. Assuming 1 million Dummy and 3600 DPS before Inspiration, the DPS gain from 1 Inspiration would be 29.

 

... Are we reading the same thread? You agreed with a post by Ranick who made an obvious mathematical failure along with a logical one. Which could logically be explained by saying that more time favors execute classes, when executes are % based (aka the time of the execute is irrelevant). While someone took the time to mathematically explain it here. Now, you could be agreeing with a different point, but you have completely ignored the obvious problem he was referring to.

 

And no, they came from you, starting here.

I will admit I was decidedly over the top with the second sentence, and for that I apologize. I won't edit it since I want future readers to see my post being better than it was when I posted it. However in the thread you never made any attempt to explain any of your points. Despite multiple people questioning them. Ignoring the 1.5 Dummy allows shorter parses which makes lucky crit more important, not to mention more issues that other people brought up that you ignored.

For my part then, I apologize as well. <3 I think you misinterpreted some of what I was saying. I took offense to someone (Newton didnt make the post i replied to there btw) that people are less dedicated to something because of a minute or two of time. That's all.

If everyone could have a guildy give them a Bloodthirst/Inspiration, it would be fine. Unfortunately not everyone has that capability. Either everyone has it or no one does, or else it's not allowed.

 

 

Sigh... I tried to bring it back to logic, reason and facts, but it's clear you skimmed it all or skipped it entirely. I love how your last post gives 'credit' to the one person in the entire thread who's point was mathematically proven to be wrong.

 

I feel the overwhelming need to re-post my previous comment, in hopes that it will be seen by someone with a sense of logic and reason, by someone who doesn't claim out-right to no longer care about parsing.

This topic is too soupy now. We don't even know what we're agreeing/disagreeing with anymore.

This topic is too soupy now. We don't even know what we're agreeing/disagreeing with anymore.

Unfortunately, this has become the case. I tried to fix that, but it was likely lost in the other posts. Reposted below. Please read and respond, and hopefully we can figure out what's what.

The idea to limit parses to a minimum of five minutes dates back to who knows when, and for obvious reasons. As I have stated time and again, the point of the leaderboard is for sustained DPS. It's also for a fair representation of raid ability. That is the point of the thread. That is why the following rules and restrictions should be in place:

 

1: 1.5M Dummy

2: Armor debuff

3: No Bloodthirst

 

These three rules will ensure the fairest comparison of spec ability without relying on lucky RNG to give you the best numbers. The fact is, parses will be 6-7 minutes. They will generate lower numbers than the 1M dummy. But that's the point. The point is to show an accurate reading of sustained DPS. Players don't rely on perfect RNG to get them through HM Ops fights (or at least, they shouldn't).

 

The other point to make, which I touched on briefly, is the dev feedback. The excuse Austin Peckenpaugh gave for Assassins and Shadows was that they relied heavily on the <30% damage bonus, didn't have an armor, and weren't able to use Assassinate. [source]. While this is true to some extent, some players believe (rightly, in my opinion) that Assassin/Shadow DPS is still low even after those restrictions and the 2.5 buffs. With a fair and balanced leaderboard, we can provide the top parses to the devs as hard evidence of a viability difference, and get some action. For the future of the game, this matters.

As far as Ranick's latest post goes, that's already cleared up some misconceptions between what he and I believe. I think the leaderboard should measure the raid capability of each class equally, he thinks it should be of each advanced class's individual ability to do as much damage to a target on their own. Both are viable leaderboards. Optimally we'd have a leaderboard (or even thread) for each. Unfortunately it remains to be seen if Falver is up for the task of maintaining twice as many submissions. The reason I think it should measure raid capability is because it gives more quality feedback to the Devs in terms of what classes are capable of. I mentioned this in the quoted text above:

The other point to make, which I touched on briefly, is the dev feedback. The excuse Austin Peckenpaugh gave for Assassins and Shadows was that they relied heavily on the <30% damage bonus, didn't have an armor, and weren't able to use Assassinate. [source]. While this is true to some extent, some players believe (rightly, in my opinion) that Assassin/Shadow DPS is still low even after those restrictions and the 2.5 buffs. With a fair and balanced leaderboard, we can provide the top parses to the devs as hard evidence of a viability difference, and get some action.

The leaderboard that will help the game itself the most is the one I suggested. The developers are never going to parse as high as the best player in the game. The leaderboard gives the devs a look at what the best players are capable of, so they can tweak and adjust balancing as needed.

... Are we reading the same thread? You agreed with a post by Ranick who made an obvious mathematical failure along with a logical one. Which could logically be explained by saying that more time favors execute classes, when executes are % based (aka the time of the execute is irrelevant). While someone took the time to mathematically explain it here. Now, you could be agreeing with a different point, but you have completely ignored the obvious problem he was referring to.

 

And no, they came from you, starting here.

I will admit I was decidedly over the top with the second sentence, and for that I apologize. I won't edit it since I want future readers to see my post being better than it was when I posted it. However in the thread you never made any attempt to explain any of your points. Despite multiple people questioning them. Ignoring the 1.5 Dummy allows shorter parses which makes lucky crit more important, not to mention more issues that other people brought up that you ignored.

DPS for an execute class with a 1mil or a 1.5mil dummy doesn't change the perfect DPS for that class, agreed. It does however shift the fight in favor of execute classes vs those without because executes boost a class's DPS by somewhere between 50-100DPS, meaning a change of up to 100DPS in the 30% range. Over a time standard? Nothing changes. Over a HP based fight? EVERYTHING CHANGES. Examples: Over a 5 minute fight with a no health pool dummy, both a 3k DPS Lightning Sorc and a 3k DPS Anni Mara will end up netting 3k DPS. In a 1mil HP dummy fight without executes, both would kill a 1mil dummy in 333.33 seconds. Over a 5 minute fight with executes, a 3k DPS Anni Mara will kill the boss in ~320sec (assuming mean crit% based on my studies on how executes boost DPS) because Vicious Throw is that significant, both to overall DPS and because the ability is built into the talent tree to boost the rest of the class's DPS through a proc reset of a crucial ability. Over a 1.5mil fight, both will kill the dummy in 500 seconds under non-execute rules. The Anni Mara with execute will kill it in 480sec. The DPS ratio is the same, but the time differential is almost double BECAUSE DPS IS TIME RELATED. It has no correlation or proportionality on a time based fight, but on a HP/time fight, the higher the HP, the higher the discrepancy because the time DPS is being applied is higher. Basic math people, basic math. Obviously this number changes with different execute systems for different classes, but the overall result is that the higher the HP pool, the higher the discrepancy in time which means the faster the dummy dies, also correlating to a higher DPS because there is less time for player error/lag issues in the fight. **TL,DR**, is the new standard for the HP based parses the time in which the dummy dies or the DPS for the fight?

All parse records for classes are highly based off of lucky crit rolls anyways, what's your point. We've pretty well established who the contenders are for Best in Class for any given class/spec, now it's a matter of who spends more time to get the higher crit deviations. Changing to a HP based standard won't change this, it just means that there may be slightly different contenders because execute rotations are different than the first 70%.

And for my stance on Bloodthirst/Insp, it has to be allowed for Maras because it isn't something we just click and say "LAWL MOAR DPS". You have to build/use Fury stacks to activate it, which are a secondary resource system inherent to Mara/Sents. It's at our discretion to use it how we want. No one would argue if we chose to hit Pred/Trans instead of Berserk/Zen, they'd just call us bad. In the same way, you can't fault us for activating one DPS gaining ability for another. Again, Bloodthirst is a net DPS loss when weighed against Berserk, it just makes sense in your opener/if you can have double Fury activation via Frenzy because when you can stack Fury abilities it nets more DPS than spreading it out.

Again, I push for any hit pool at a given gearing that nets a 4min+parse for all classes, with the goal to aim for a median across all classes of 5min. Right now that is a 1mil dummy. I say no Armor Debuff as this skews results in favor of Snipers and hurts anything with AP/AR build into their rotation. The format originally posted is almost the exact one we came up with on the Shadowlands 2.4 DPS thread as the new 2.5 alternative.

All parse records for classes are highly based off of lucky crit rolls anyways, what's your point. We've pretty well established who the contenders are for Best in Class for any given class/spec, now it's a matter of who spends more time to get the higher crit deviations. Changing to a HP based standard won't change this, it just means that there may be slightly different contenders because execute rotations are different than the first 70%.

The reason we want to change it to a 1.5m dummy is so that the class's DPS can be compared to each other more accurately, simulating a raid situation. This will help the devs a lot. They will no longer be able to say 'this class doesn't parse as much because it doesn't have the benefit of <30% abilities and passives".

In addition, many players do not pick their advanced class solely on how much DPS it is capable of. In the same way, many players do not pick their advanced class solely on how much they enjoy it. A lot of players try to find a balance somewhere inbetween them. I for one see the Sniper as clearly having higher DPS than Marauder. I don't enjoy it quite as much though, which is why I play Marauder. Players who's viability-based choice matters are going to be participating in endgame. They're going to value a class's capability in a raid scenario above their ability on a dummy.

Both Devs and the majority of players value an in-raid simulation of DPS above standard dummy (pre-2.5) numbers. That's why I think the leaderboard should use it. It benefits players more, and it benefits the Devs more.

So many people complain about balancing. This may be a chance to help fix it.

The reason we want to change it to a 1.5m dummy is so that the class's DPS can be compared to each other more accurately, simulating a raid situation. This will help the devs a lot. They will no longer be able to say 'this class doesn't parse as much because it doesn't have the benefit of <30% abilities and passives".

 

In addition, many players do not pick their advanced class solely on how much DPS it is capable of. In the same way, many players do not pick their advanced class solely on how much they enjoy it. A lot of players try to find a balance somewhere inbetween them. I for one see the Sniper as clearly having higher DPS than Marauder. I don't enjoy it quite as much though, which is why I play Marauder. Players who's viability-based choice matters are going to be participating in endgame. They're going to value a class's capability in a raid scenario above their ability on a dummy.

 

Both Devs and the majority of players value an in-raid simulation of DPS above standard dummy (pre-2.5) numbers. That's why I think the leaderboard should use it. It benefits players more, and it benefits the Devs more.

 

So many people complain about balancing. This may be a chance to help fix it.

You're never going to get a perfect representation of class balance for the devs because fight mechanics change things. The same way certain specs intraclass favor certain fights, certain fights can also favor entirely different classes. The exception is Snipes/Slingers which are good/best in every fight, which is a designer mistake and won't ever get fixed because self admittedly, the devs play snipers. It's not going to change the way they develop fights or the way they balance specs. I also disagree, the Marauder has higher DPS potential. Once a Sniper is forced to maneuver and get out of their perfect rotation, they lose substantial DPS especially if it's during a SS/Cull/Ambush/Orbital. Not dying > getting dat cast off. Marauders don't suffer as much from movement if the raid positioning is well coordinated and gap closers are used at the right times. Marauders have AoE and STDPS at their command because it's a class that builds it's own resource rather than having to stay above a certain regen tier, Snipers have to fit AoE abilities in where they fit into the rotation or make sense and plan for them. Snipers show up higher on the parse boards because of Armor Rends, simple as that.

On a personal note, having met with some of the devs at a Cantina Tour, they're totally not worried about class balance at all, nor do they understand the way their own game works. Lynx and I had to TELL THEM HOW THE SCAMPER/EXFILTRATE BUG FUNCTIONS, they by their own admittance had no idea how to replicate it. We were literally the only ones who asked them balance and functionality questions, and while they had all the answers lined up for questions about storylines, guild leader/officer functionality, where they "drew their inspiration from" (No *****, an actual question asked), or anything of that irrelevant sort, they had very little for us or were straight stumped when asked 1 on 1 questions about class balance and why or how they go about it. I think we can straight write that off, the DPS threads are for player Epeen and nothing else sadly.

You're never going to get a perfect representation of class balance for the devs because fight mechanics change things. The same way certain specs intraclass favor certain fights, certain fights can also favor entirely different classes. The exception is Snipes/Slingers which are good/best in every fight, which is a designer mistake and won't ever get fixed because self admittedly, the devs play snipers. It's not going to change the way they develop fights or the way they balance specs. I also disagree, the Marauder has higher DPS potential. Once a Sniper is forced to maneuver and get out of their perfect rotation, they lose substantial DPS especially if it's during a SS/Cull/Ambush/Orbital. Not dying > getting dat cast off. Marauders don't suffer as much from movement if the raid positioning is well coordinated and gap closers are used at the right times. Marauders have AoE and STDPS at their command because it's a class that builds it's own resource rather than having to stay above a certain regen tier, Snipers have to fit AoE abilities in where they fit into the rotation or make sense and plan for them. Snipers show up higher on the parse boards because of Armor Rends, simple as that.

 

On a personal note, having met with some of the devs at a Cantina Tour, they're totally not worried about class balance at all, nor do they understand the way their own game works. Lynx and I had to TELL THEM HOW THE SCAMPER/EXFILTRATE BUG FUNCTIONS, they by their own admittance had no idea how to replicate it. We were literally the only ones who asked them balance and functionality questions, and while they had all the answers lined up for questions about storylines, guild leader/officer functionality, where they "drew their inspiration from" (No *****, an actual question asked), or anything of that irrelevant sort, they had very little for us or were straight stumped when asked 1 on 1 questions about class balance and why or how they go about it. I think we can straight write that off, the DPS threads are for player Epeen and nothing else sadly.

Even with that in mind, even with writing off the devs caring... it still matters to players when it comes to knowing which class has more potential than another. We can measure epeens with either leaderboard. Might as well at least help other players along the way even if the devs don't care.

I personally happen to think the leaderboard will be a good thread to point the devs to even if they don't care.

Even with that in mind, even with writing off the devs caring... it still matters to players when it comes to knowing which class has more potential than another. We can measure epeens with either leaderboard. Might as well at least help other players along the way even if the devs don't care.

 

I personally happen to think the leaderboard will be a good thread to point the devs to even if they don't care.

Uh, I'll help you out there. Roll a Snipes . Seriously though, they're way, way overpowered. I have one, so it's not a bias. They're insanely overpowered in a raid setting, extremely high DPS potential in any of the 3 specs and both hybrids that cover every possible playstyle including melee for fawk's sake, a %based raidwide cooldown that lasts for-freaking-ever and the ability to negate mechanics entirely with Evasion and Covered Escape? Why would you pick anything else if not already committed to a class?

Cut the condescending, know it all attitude clown, you're flat wrong. It's nothing near absolutely ludicrous. The DPS remains the same? Not even close. Overall up until the 30% mark, nothing changes, however by switching to a dummy with a health pool rather than a set time limitation, you change the game entirely. It becomes about the first to take the HP from X to 0, DPS is a byproduct rather than a standard. It is still a DPS based game, obviously highest DPS wins the race, but execute range changes things for several classes. Case in point, Marksman Snipes now benefit doubly, they get Takedown as part of their rotation for 30% of the fight as well as an extra Followthrough, SIGNIFICANTLY boosting their DPS. For a comparison example pulled out of my butt, an Annihilation Marauder vs a Lightning Sorc. Neither have an execute ability for a timer based fight, granted the Anni Mara would probably win, if they were to do the same DPS, the 30% Vicious Throw would push the race in favor of the Mara. If you have a class with an execute, watch your Nefra numbers which is as close to a dummy fight as you'll find in the game. It's how I managed to hold onto my 3764DPS 16man HM record parse number. It had dropped to 3680ish until execute range where it jumped back up to ~3750. Executes boost by about 50-100 DPS once you hit range from where they were previously on timer based dummy fights. You can't argue this, don't even bother trying.

Pretty certain you didn't get his point. The point he is responding to, which you brought up here:

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go. The argument that 1.5mil health needs to be the standard based on your reasoning is like saying that sports quarter/periods need to be extended by 50% because you need less intensity and to reward the athletes with endurance conditioning. You're going to see lower overall DPS because the rotation is going to have more slop mistakes because of the greater time frame with the extended 2.5 minutes. If a player is capable of sustaining the rotation for 4-5 minutes, I see no reason why they should have to prove they can do it for an additional 2 for the sake of achieving a universal standard.

The 150k comment clearly shows the things being compared by you are the 1 mil and 1.5 mil dummy. You are making the case that an execute heavy class would inherently be favored on a 1.5 mil dummy. I will just copy paste what I said earlier about that: "a post by Ranick who made an obvious mathematical failure along with a logical one. Which could logically be explained by saying that more time favors execute classes, when executes are % based (aka the time of the execute is irrelevant). While someone took the time to mathematically explain it here."

You are arguing that the HP Dummy helps Execute Classes. He is arguing there is no difference between 1.5 and 1 in terms of how executes affect DPS.

Right now, Falver's post is THE definitive DPS thread. 100% contrary to what you said, it's ALL ABOUT HOW A CLASS CAN PERFORM ON IT'S OWN. The rules clearly state that you cannot use anything to assist your fight other than what your class itself can bring. This isn't about raid DPS, this is about dummy parsing. There's a completely separate raid DPS thread for each raid, that's where people can flex their nuts and ignore the absence/presence of raidwide buffs and who's group comp best suits big numbers. The dummy DPS threads have always been about who can make the most out of their class with no assistance. Allowing all classes an Armor Rend gives a boost to anything without AP inherent in their rotation and benefits anything that needs to "waste" a global on attaining that Armor Rend, aka Snipes.

You also forget we had the DPS scalars on the Leaderboards for a while, I may have missed why they were dismissed, but to assume that the reality of DPS is totally irrelevant for the leaderboards forgets some things.

Also, on the Leaderboards Sentinels compete against Marauders and vice versa, Snipers compete against Gunslingers, etc. No AC competes against another except its mirror for a spot on the boards. No Sniper should lose their spot due to this change. All that happens is that people get a better idea of how different specs DPS wise. The only classes that are disadvantaged are Arsenal Mercs. They don't function as 40 highest DPS get a spot, it is 5 best from each class get a spot. If Dummy DPS is divorced from Ops Reality, then why use the Ops Dummy compared to the other ones? The others allow higher DPS, but we use this one since it closely mimics the damage you would do in an Operation.

I will just say what I said in the DPS leaderboard thread:

The creation of the Armor Debuff [and killable dummy] was a pretty obvious message from Bioware that it wants parsing to be done with more equality since they don't want the status quo of QQ because some specs are better at Dummy DPS. Like it or not this thread is treated as the standard by the community for how different classes and specs compete DPS wise.

Marauders' BT is an inherent ability and there's no reason not to use it during a parse. If you're going to say that, than Snipers shouldn't be able to Shatter Shot (irrelevant if you're going to allow for the AR, I'm talking under current rules). BT is actually a net DPS loss, using Berserk instead is a DPS gain for any of the 3 Mara specs. The only reason I BT at the beginning of a parse is because in conjunction with double stacking Fury prior to engagement, it is the most efficient use of Fury and the highest DPS. At the tail end of the fight, I'd rather back to back Berserk than BT because it's a net DPS gain.

For Carnage maybe, but I did some Math and would say no for Annihilation. Especially if you have Valorous Call (which you should). Plus your parses disagree with you unless this was recent revelation, in which case fair enough.

The standard should be a 1mil dummy with no armor rend buff. As DPS increases to the point where the fight reaches sub 4min marks, then we can up it to 1.5mil accordingly. The 5 minute standard is very relevant, we should use whatever HP pool holds the median for all classes as close to 5 minutes as possible. The argument against this is going to be null when DPS 6+ months from now has the 1.5mil dummy dying in sub 5 minutes anyways. I think having a health based standard is stupid because of this scaling issue, but I think it overall lends a better view of who knows how to play their class best since execute range is a gamechanger for several classes and requires a different play than beating a dummy for 5 minutes. Essentially, the discussion between the 1 or 1.5mil is a temporary discussion, because later DPS will end up requiring a higher health pool dummy to be implemented at a later date anyways. 1mil is the way to go right now, future gearing will see the 1.5mil com into relevance and even further gearing will require a 2mil+ dummy.

The 5 minute rule has been in place for a while, and the agreement has always been in flux whether you can do over, but everyone has agreed you can't parse under. So based on current precedent, 1.5 mil does make more sense in that regard. Anyway, since the current overall leaderboard allows a variance of time, I see no reason why you can't allow people to use both 1 and 1.5.

Uh, I'll help you out there. Roll a Snipes . Seriously though, they're way, way overpowered. I have one, so it's not a bias. They're insanely overpowered in a raid setting, extremely high DPS potential in any of the 3 specs and both hybrids that cover every possible playstyle including melee for fawk's sake, a %based raidwide cooldown that lasts for-freaking-ever and the ability to negate mechanics entirely with Evasion and Covered Escape? Why would you pick anything else if not already committed to a class?

I for one see the Sniper as clearly having higher DPS than Marauder. I don't enjoy it quite as much though, which is why I play Marauder.

I've also played Marauder since the first day of early game access, so I would consider that being committed to a class I did drop it entirely from the time 2.3 dropped to the time 2.4 dropped for Juggernaut, because I couldn't stand Carnage. BW happened to screw my Annihilation (or hybrid rather, as it turned out to be) but I finally buckled down and figured it out.

rDPS in general has never been my thing. I find both Marksmanship and Arsenal incredibly dull and boring. Sniper does have some interesting cooldowns and abilities, but so does Sorcerer. Probably a fan of sorcerer the most. Lethality takes a hard hit during phase fights (which is to say, a lot of fights) and I was never a fan of sniper hybrid. Merc Pyrotech would be interesting to raid with, though. It does suffer similar to Lethality in phase fights, but I'd likely prefer it more.

At the moment I use a Sorc for PvE rDPS. Granted I rarely raid on him, but I'll throw some gear his way now and again. Augments are a long way off...

DPS for an execute class with a 1mil or a 1.5mil dummy doesn't change the perfect DPS for that class, agreed. It does however shift the fight in favor of execute classes vs those without because executes boost a class's DPS by somewhere between 50-100DPS, meaning a change of up to 100DPS in the 30% range. Over a time standard? Nothing changes. Over a HP based fight? EVERYTHING CHANGES. Examples: Over a 5 minute fight with a no health pool dummy, both a 3k DPS Lightning Sorc and a 3k DPS Anni Mara will end up netting 3k DPS. In a 1mil HP dummy fight without executes, both would kill a 1mil dummy in 333.33 seconds. Over a 5 minute fight with executes, a 3k DPS Anni Mara will kill the boss in ~320sec (assuming mean crit% based on my studies on how executes boost DPS) because Vicious Throw is that significant, both to overall DPS and because the ability is built into the talent tree to boost the rest of the class's DPS through a proc reset of a crucial ability. Over a 1.5mil fight, both will kill the dummy in 500 seconds under non-execute rules. The Anni Mara with execute will kill it in 480sec. The DPS ratio is the same, but the time differential is almost double BECAUSE DPS IS TIME RELATED. It has no correlation or proportionality on a time based fight, but on a HP/time fight, the higher the HP, the higher the discrepancy because the time DPS is being applied is higher. Basic math people, basic math. Obviously this number changes with different execute systems for different classes, but the overall result is that the higher the HP pool, the higher the discrepancy in time which means the faster the dummy dies, also correlating to a higher DPS because there is less time for player error/lag issues in the fight. **TL,DR**, is the new standard for the HP based parses the time in which the dummy dies or the DPS for the fight?.

As long as the dummy can die and can go under 30% of hp then the dps gain from those abilities will occur and be identical because the % of time spent in that phase is identical.

1 mill

3400 71% 710,000 208.82

3550 29% 290,000 81.69

total time 290.51

total dps 3442.22

1.5 mill

3400 1,065,000 313.23

3550 435,000 122.53

total time 435.76

total dps 3442.26

as you said it's all about time.

for the 1 million dummy you spend 71.880486% of time above 29% and just 28.1195145% under it.

for the 1.5 million dummy you spend 71.881311% of time above 29% and 28.118689% under it

since these 2 sets of numbers are near identical and dps is a average the dps gain will be the same regardless of time spent parsing.

Side Note: the only reason those numbers aren't exactly the same is the fact that I rounded the original numbers its also the reason for the .04 dps difference.

The 150k comment clearly shows the things being compared by you are the 1 mil and 1.5 mil dummy. You are making the case that an execute heavy class would inherently be favored on a 1.5 mil dummy. I will just copy paste what I said earlier about that: "a post by Ranick who made an obvious mathematical failure along with a logical one. Which could logically be explained by saying that more time favors execute classes, when executes are % based (aka the time of the execute is irrelevant). While someone took the time to mathematically explain it here."

 

You are arguing that the HP Dummy helps Execute Classes. He is arguing there is no difference between 1.5 and 1 in terms of how executes affect DPS.

You can use Adrenals, which aren't part of any classes abilities. You can use anything that isn't an extra ability or from another class. Armor Debuffs are now a buff that can be applied on the Dummy to give a better picture of DPS. At this point an AR is something that anyone can apply for the purposes of Dummy DPS.

 

Also, on the Leaderboards Sentinels compete against Marauders and vice versa, Snipers compete against Gunslingers, etc. .... If Dummy DPS is divorced from Ops Reality, then why use the Ops Dummy compared to the other ones? The others allow higher DPS, but we use this one since it closely mimics the damage you would do in an Operation.

 

For Carnage maybe, but I did some Math and would say no for Annihilation. Especially if you have Valorous Call (which you should). Plus your parses disagree with you unless this was recent revelation, in which case fair enough.

And you aren't getting what I'm saying. From a DPS alone standpoint, that is to say, using DPS as the measurement standard for who is the best, no, the HP pools don't change anything except force the player to sit there ~50% longer to get the same number. Why the hell would we want to do that when by your own admittance via your arguments we get the same DPS number with either dummy? My point was that by switching to a HP pool standard rather than a set time limit standard, we need to switch to a TTK measurement standard rather than the DPS standard. Otherwise, what's the point of even going with the HP dummy? We should just stick with a 5 minute parse or up it to 6 minutes to get into execute range if we're arbitrarily going to do that. In that scenario, the higher your DPS, the more time you get in execute, further boosting your DPS. Seems dumb to me. Time standard = DPS standard, HP standard = TTK standard in my opinion. If TTK is the standard, then executes are huge when talking about higher hit pools because although DPS doesn't change, TTK will significantly.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. When I said class inherent, I meant abilities. Adrenals and Stims aren't a class ability, are universally available, and thus should be allowed. If you can't activate it yourself on that character, you shouldn't be allowed to use it is what I meant. Armor Rends may be universally available, but it changes the game so much that I think it's unfair. As Falver's post used to track, the adjusted DPS scalar with AR benefits some classes/specs more than others, so it stands to reason that it is not universally fair. An adrenal is a set boost that provides the same bonus to any class that uses it against any other class. An Armor Rend does not, it benefits some classes more than others. Snipes get an extra GCD every 45sec in their rotation and don't have to watch their energy as closely, Arsenal gets screwed against Pyro, either way you're boosting some classes/specs against others. Really nothing to argue here, it's unbalancing and shouldn't be up for debate.

For the discussion point that the devs put the AR debuff into the game to balance things, you're reading way too far into it. It's just another credit sink and shiny object to keep people's waning attention to this game. Cynical as that viewpoint may be, I've met with the some of the devs and they destroyed my faith in the balancing process of the game. Do they care? Yes, they want some modicum of fairness. Is it their primary, secondary, tertiary objective or even in their top 5? Absolutely not. There's a much larger crowd that plays this game because OMG STAR WARZZ than to be a competitive gamer, they're not going to cater to the competitive side of the game pretty much ever because that's not where they money is. 8v Ranked disappearing was a pretty big red flag for this. They do not understand the way this game was designed because they weren't here when it was. They're doing what they can with the fawkshow they inherited, all of the original lead designers are gone or aren't gameplay/mechanics staff. A prime example is how they made Madness/Balance DOTs uncleansable, yet left Anni's fully cleansable by anyone. Class balance, LOLWUTSDAT?? We can discuss Marauder mechanics like BT vs Berserk somewhere else, I don't want to get off topic.

As long as the dummy can die and can go under 30% of hp then the dps gain from those abilities will occur and be identical because the % of time spent in that phase is identical.

 

as you said it's all about time.

for the 1 million dummy you spend 71.880486% of time above 29% and just 28.1195145% under it.

for the 1.5 million dummy you spend 71.881311% of time above 29% and 28.118689% under it

since these 2 sets of numbers are near identical and dps is a average the dps gain will be the same regardless of time spent parsing.

 

Side Note: the only reason those numbers aren't exactly the same is the fact that I rounded the original numbers its also the reason for the .04 dps difference.

The percents as a function of time will stay the same, and thus the DPS will as well assuming perfect rotation. My point was that if we're shifting to a HP pool standard instead of a set time standard that the measurement standard should be swapped to TTK instead of DPS. All that increasing the dummy's hit pool does is force a player to sit there hitting hotkeys longer. If DPS remains the same, what's the point of going with a 1.5mil dummy over a 1mil dummy? To hit that one good parse that's worth posting takes multiple (read: A LOT) of attempts, and frankly adding 2 minutes to every parse for the sake of just saying "BIGGEST HIT POOL BEST HIT POOL" is asinine. This is really only making the argument for a 1mil dummy stronger, so thanks?

And you aren't getting what I'm saying. From a DPS alone standpoint, that is to say, using DPS as the measurement standard for who is the best, no, the HP pools don't change anything except force the player to sit there ~50% longer to get the same number. Why the hell would we want to do that when by your own admittance via your arguments we get the same DPS number with either dummy? My point was that by switching to a HP pool standard rather than a set time limit standard, we need to switch to a TTK measurement standard rather than the DPS standard. Otherwise, what's the point of even going with the HP dummy? We should just stick with a 5 minute parse or up it to 6 minutes to get into execute range if we're arbitrarily going to do that. In that scenario, the higher your DPS, the more time you get in execute, further boosting your DPS. Seems dumb to me. Time standard = DPS standard, HP standard = TTK standard in my opinion.

The percents as a function of time will stay the same, and thus the DPS will as well assuming perfect rotation. My point was that if we're shifting to a HP pool standard instead of a set time standard that the measurement standard should be swapped to TTK instead of DPS.

Thats not what you said here.

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go..

The percents as a function of time will stay the same, and thus the DPS will as well assuming perfect rotation. My point was that if we're shifting to a HP pool standard instead of a set time standard that the measurement standard should be swapped to TTK instead of DPS. All that increasing the dummy's hit pool does is force a player to sit there hitting hotkeys longer. If DPS remains the same, what's the point of going with a 1.5mil dummy over a 1mil dummy? To hit that one good parse that's worth posting takes multiple (read: A LOT) of attempts, and frankly adding 2 minutes to every parse for the sake of just saying "BIGGEST HIT POOL BEST HIT POOL" is asinine. This is really only making the argument for a 1mil dummy stronger, so thanks?

The fact is that a longer parse does lower the impact of large initial bursts as well as lucky crits/procs there may be a 30% chance for something to crit buy occasionally it will crit 4 times in a row or you may receive amazing hand of justice procs for part of the time. That's the whole reason why you parse so many times to get that lucky/perfect 1 but this makes parses with a lower sample size less accurate.

lets say a series of crits / procs leads to a increase in dps by 300 for 15 secs. now say for the rest of the fight you're dps is 3400.

on a 1 million hp dummy you would do: 3415.41 dps

but on a 1.5 million hp dummy you would do : 3410.25 dps

so 5 less dps so it would make a difference.

that example is just a single event. There is a reason that almost all scientific studies use a large sample size. Saying that it is harder to get the perfect parse through either luck or just parseing over and over because you need to parse 2 mins 30 secs longer is not a good reason to go for a 1 million hp dummy.

Thats not what you said here.

 

The fact is that a longer parse does lower the impact of large initial bursts as well as lucky crits/procs there may be a 30% chance for something to crit buy occasionally it will crit 4 times in a row or you may receive amazing hand of justice procs for part of the time. That's the whole reason why you parse so many times to get that lucky/perfect 1 but this makes parses with a lower sample size less accurate.

 

lets say a series of crits / procs leads to a increase in dps by 300 for 15 secs. now say for the rest of the fight you're dps is 3400.

 

on a 1 million hp dummy you would do: 3415.41 dps

but on a 1.5 million hp dummy you would do : 3410.25 dps

so 5 less dps so it would make a difference.

 

that example is just a single event. There is a reason that almost all scientific studies use a large sample size. Saying that it is harder to get the perfect parse through either luck or just parseing over and over because you need to parse longer is not a good reason to go for a 1 million hp dummy.

That's actually exactly what I said there. The more time that gets spent in execute range, the bigger the discrepancy you're going to see between classes with/without executes. I've already posted on this, go back through and find my example as I'm not going to prove a point I've already proved. I'm talking about TTK, not DPS. As stated above, DPS should no longer be the standard if we're switching to HP based standard, TTK should. If TTK becomes the standard, non-ex classes will fall farther and farther behind as the hit pools increase in size. The lowest HP dummy that still provides a long enough fight to smooth burst damage and blend it with sustained/ramp up classes is the one that should be used because of this. If you want to see who can parse the best over an extended period of time, start a thread where the standard is 10 minutes. Hell, make it 30 minutes. There isn't a single fight in the game right now that requires more than 6 minutes of nonstop DPS other than NiM TCW, so I don't see where extending a dummy parse past 5 minutes has relevance.

Will a 50% longer fight reduce the RNG? Yes, for sure. Is it large enough to get a fully developed and equalized sample? Absolutely not. You'll still see the top parses having lucky crit numbers. Extending the time of the fight just means that you'll see a more balanced distribution of parses near the mean, with lower variance. The outliers will still be there, and you'll continue to see crits in the 1-2 standard deviation range dominating the lead parses. It's just going to take more parses to get to them. The threads have never been about who maintains the highest mean, once a parse makes the board it sticks regardless of how poorly that player performs on subsequent parses. Essentially all you're doing by extending the fight time past 5 minutes is rewarding players who do more parses if a single parse standard is maintained.

lets say a series of crits / procs leads to a increase in dps by 300 for 15 secs. now say for the rest of the fight you're dps is 3400.

300 dps increase is a joke when you talk about 15 seconds of luck. When you are criting you are at least doing 70% more DPS.

That's actually exactly what I said there. The more time that gets spent in execute range, the bigger the discrepancy you're going to see between classes with/without executes. I've already posted on this, go back through and find my example as I'm not going to prove a point I've already proved. I'm talking about TTK, not DPS. As stated above, DPS should no longer be the standard if we're switching to HP based standard, TTK should. If TTK becomes the standard, non-ex classes will fall farther and farther behind as the hit pools increase in size. The lowest HP dummy that still provides a long enough fight to smooth burst damage and blend it with sustained/ramp up classes is the one that should be used because of this. If you want to see who can parse the best over an extended period of time, start a thread where the standard is 10 minutes. Hell, make it 30 minutes. There isn't a single fight in the game right now that requires more than 6 minutes of nonstop DPS other than NiM TCW, so I don't see where extending a dummy parse past 5 minutes has relevance.

 

Will a 50% longer fight reduce the RNG? Yes, for sure. Is it large enough to get a fully developed and equalized sample? Absolutely not. You'll still see the top parses having lucky crit numbers. Extending the time of the fight just means that you'll see a more balanced distribution of parses near the mean, with lower variance. The outliers will still be there, and you'll continue to see crits in the 1-2 standard deviation range dominating the lead parses. It's just going to take more parses to get to them. The threads have never been about who maintains the highest mean, once a parse makes the board it sticks regardless of how poorly that player performs on subsequent parses. Essentially all you're doing by extending the fight time past 5 minutes is rewarding players who do more parses if a single parse standard is maintained.

no the higher the dps the discrepancy in you're example ,the sent does 3125 dps and the sage does 3000 dps for both dummies the ttk difference is from the fact that there dps is different and not from the amount of time spent in execute range.

1 mill

sage 333.33 secs to kill or 3,000 dps

sent 320.00 secs to kill or 3,125 dps (96% of the time the sage took)

1.5 mill

sage 500 secs or 3000 dps

sent 480 secs to kill or 3,125 dps (96% of the time the sage took)

yes the time to kill went up but not as a percent of the total length of the fight when compared to the sage and that came from the difference in dps and not a longer execute window and will happen with any class that does more then another.

e.g. same sent versus 3800 dps pyro merc.

1mill

pyro 263.16 (82.2%) of sents time

sent 320

1.5 mill

pyro 394.74 (82.2%) of sents time

sent 480

An Armor Rend does not, it benefits some classes more than others. Snipes get an extra GCD every 45sec in their rotation and don't have to watch their energy as closely, Arsenal gets screwed against Pyro, either way you're boosting some classes/specs against others. Really nothing to argue here, it's unbalancing and shouldn't be up for debate.

The parses that make the leaderboard are viewed by more than just the top contenders. The parses represent each class/spec played at its highest level, and the results are inevitably used by less experienced players to decide which spec they'd like to learn and use in operations. The classes/specs that get a DPS boost from the armor debuff against the dummy will get the same boost in an operation. If Arsenal gets "screwed by Pyro" in the presence of an armor debuff, that information should be made apparent to a casual viewer of the leaderboard.

And yes, Snipers would get a small DPS boost from having an extra GCD every 45 seconds, but classes that cannot supply their own armor debuff will get an even larger boost; I'm not sure why you're so concerned about Snipers...

Ultimately, the argument could be made the other way too: Some specs benefit more than others without a provided armor debuff (Snipers ), and parses were unbalanced BEFORE the modulator was introduced.

The parses that make the leaderboard are viewed by more than just the top contenders. The parses represent each class/spec played at its highest level, and the results are inevitably used by less experienced players to decide which spec they'd like to learn and use in operations. The classes/specs that get a DPS boost from the armor debuff against the dummy will get the same boost in an operation. If Arsenal gets "screwed by Pyro" in the presence of an armor debuff, that information should be made apparent to a casual viewer of the leaderboard.

 

And yes, Snipers would get a small DPS boost from having an extra GCD every 45 seconds, but classes that cannot supply their own armor debuff will get an even larger boost; I'm not sure why you're so concerned about Snipers...

 

Ultimately, the argument could be made the other way too: Some specs benefit more than others without a provided armor debuff (Snipers ), and parses were unbalanced BEFORE the modulator was introduced.

If that was the case then everyone would roll Rollbang Snipes The only people who really matter in those threads are the ones who are posting numbers, people peeking in and saying "ERMAGERD DAT DEEPS GIMME CLASS NAO" probably won't be able to play the class to it's potential anyways. If you don't know classes well enough to know which benefit from additional AR, then you really don't have any business using the top parse thread for a basis of study. I'm not overly concerned with Snipers or anything really, I'm just trying to keep a fair viewpoint for all classes/specs. I wouldn't want to have to switch from Arsenal to Pyro just because AR changed the game and now I can't compete, the same as I don't want to have to parse in Anni just because AR boosts the spec's already broken parses to the point where Carnage can't contend (damage and healing double procing SA/mainstat relics is sooooo due for a fix), or make Juggernauts even less relevant.

no the higher the dps the discrepancy in you're example ,the sent does 3125 dps and the sage does 3000 dps for both dummies the ttk difference is from the fact that there dps is different and not from the amount of time spent in execute range.

 

 

1 mill

sage 333.33 secs to kill or 3,000 dps

sent 320.00 secs to kill or 3,125 dps (96% of the time the sage took)

1.5 mill

sage 500 secs or 3000 dps

sent 480 secs to kill or 3,125 dps (96% of the time the sage took)

 

yes the time to kill went up but not as a percent of the total length of the fight when compared to the sage and that came from the difference in dps and not a longer execute window and will happen with any class that does more then another.

 

e.g. same sent versus 3800 dps pyro merc.

1mill

pyro 263.16 (82.2%) of sents time

sent 320

 

1.5 mill

pyro 394.74 (82.2%) of sents time

sent 480

Agreed that the percents remain the same. We're not talking percentages though, we're talking an actual numerical value, which is TTK. The TTK differential shifts in proportion to the health pool (length of fight if you want) as the percent remains constant. You're essentially arguing my point for me but still disagreeing, this is getting pointless.

Agreed that the percents remain the same. We're not talking percentages though, we're talking an actual numerical value, which is TTK. The TTK differential shifts in proportion to the health pool (length of fight if you want) as the percent remains constant. You're essentially arguing my point for me but still disagreeing, this is getting pointless.

you're overall point is that this will allow execute classes to rise up the leaderboards my point is thats not true at all

, you're going to see execute classes start pooping on non-ex classes as we progress to higher and higher hit pools

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go

everything i have written is to try and show you that this is not true i am running out of ideas how i can prove this to you

time to kill = total damage divided by dps

total damage= 1 million or 1.5 million depending on the dummy

since the hp amount has no effect on dps from executes as shown in one of my previous posts. there is no way a execute class will make it onto the leader board or pass anyone else on a 1.5 million hp parse who they wouldn't have beaten on a 1 million hp parse

the difference between any 2 dps's will seem larger with 1.5 million hp then 1 million hp in terms of ttk, but this has nothing to do with under 30% abilities and will not change the rankings at all.

you're overall point is that this will allow execute classes to rise up the leaderboards my point is thats not true at all

 

the difference between any 2 dps's will seem larger with 1.5 million hp then 1 million hp in terms of ttk, but this has nothing to do with under 30% abilities and will not change the rankings at all.

This is not what I'm saying at all dude. The TTK differential will give a perceived advantage to the execute classes. The percents won't change, but we're not posting percents on those threads, we're posing actual hard numbers, not ratios. People will look at the numbers and say "300sec TTK vs 310sec TTK, not too much of a difference. Oh wait, higher hitpoint dummy, 360sec TTK vs 390sec TTK? 30 extra seconds? That's significant". They're not going to look and see that the ratios of DPS are the same, they're going to look at the hard numbers. A 100 point DPS gain in a 1mil vs 1.5mil fight translates to an extra 8 seconds or so in the examples I posted. The class's DPS overall or as a % based ratio of damage done does not change, but the remaining hard number increases as the duration of the fight does. This leaves a larger number of actual hit points on the mob, meaning more for the other raid members to have to clean up.

And you aren't getting what I'm saying. From a DPS alone standpoint, that is to say, using DPS as the measurement standard for who is the best, no, the HP pools don't change anything except force the player to sit there ~50% longer to get the same number. Why the hell would we want to do that when by your own admittance via your arguments we get the same DPS number with either dummy? My point was that by switching to a HP pool standard rather than a set time limit standard, we need to switch to a TTK measurement standard rather than the DPS standard. Otherwise, what's the point of even going with the HP dummy? We should just stick with a 5 minute parse or up it to 6 minutes to get into execute range if we're arbitrarily going to do that. In that scenario, the higher your DPS, the more time you get in execute, further boosting your DPS. Seems dumb to me. Time standard = DPS standard, HP standard = TTK standard in my opinion.

No, you aren't getting this, you were arguing the entirely wrong point to the guy. Nor are you getting I am not refuting your Argument. I am saying you were arguing completely different issues with him.

On another note, I typically have trouble keeping good RNG past 4 minutes, or a lot of times bad RNG will not persist beyond that point. The difference between the two is that it makes getting a lucky crit parse vastly harder and the longer length favors people that know their rotations better.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. When I said class inherent, I meant abilities. Adrenals and Stims aren't a class ability, are universally available, and thus should be allowed. If you can't activate it yourself on that character, you shouldn't be allowed to use it is what I meant. Armor Rends may be universally available, but it changes the game so much that I think it's unfair. As Falver's post used to track, the adjusted DPS scalar with AR benefits some classes/specs more than others, so it stands to reason that it is not universally fair. An adrenal is a set boost that provides the same bonus to any class that uses it against any other class. An Armor Rend does not, it benefits some classes more than others. Snipes get an extra GCD every 45sec in their rotation and don't have to watch their energy as closely, Arsenal gets screwed against Pyro, either way you're boosting some classes/specs against others. Really nothing to argue here, it's unbalancing and shouldn't be up for debate.

The leaderboards were still arranged based on who had the highest Dummy parse (so a Parse that did more on Dummy, but less on Scalar was still the top). Scalars were just an off to the side thing to note. I don't see how they disadvantaged anyone beyond telling people what to actually expect. I also always assumed the reason for no Armor Debuffs was finding a person to continually debuff a dummy or use Inspiration for dummy parsing was a huge advantage to whoever could get someone to do that. So the current system was done.

On the contrary, Bioware clearly balances DPS specs based on how well they work in an Op. How about I exactly quote the Devs:

Unfortunately, because target dummies never drop in health you cannot use them as a 1:1 replacement for Operation boss encounters. Only certain specs (Rage/Focus is not one of them, but Carnage/Combat is) can use execute abilities on a target dummy. It is also unlikely that you are testing on a target dummy with your own personal armor-debuffer (which you should definitely have against a real raid boss). So that 9% gap you may be seeing on target dummies is closer to approximately 4% in reality.

So if the current Dummy system was a circumstance of the times, how about I say this current system inherently and unfairly advantages Snipers, Mercs, Guardian, and Combat Sentinels over all other classes beyond what they are intended to do comparatively as DPS and this new system ensures a more fair picture of DPS specs to compete. Especially since DPS specs are balanced based on Armor Debuffs and Execute. Considering the fact that there are accounted for I see absolutely no compelling reason not to use them. Your reason is tradition, which only exists because we had no way to do what we have now. And darn you Red'october for making this point while I was typing this post.

Also, you ignored the fact that different Classes don't compete against one another on the Leaderboard. No Guardian loses their spot over this. The only people that may lose a spot is Arsenal (they were losing badly anyway) or Carnage. And all this highlights is how classes actually DPS. You are the only one I have seen against debuffs, and the fact that your spec is one that stands to lose this may seem to be for selfish reasons. In other words, it seems you are complaining since you don't want to get beaten by Annihilation again, because you want to parse in a way that inherently advantages you, which is too obvious based on this:

I wouldn't want to have to switch from Arsenal to Pyro just because AR changed the game and now I can't compete, the same as I don't want to have to parse in Anni just because AR boosts the spec's already broken parses to the point where Carnage can't contend (damage and healing double procing SA/mainstat relics is sooooo due for a fix), or make Juggernauts even less relevant.

That is also considering that the devs intend for Annihilation to be better than Combat at sustained DPS. I also want to see your parses of "/ezmode" Annihilation.

There is no reason to bring in which dummy to use, the MK5 Ops dummy is the standard because it's level 55, has the most armor, and provides realistic feedback. What you do while instanced is a completely different thread, I don't see a reason to push this any further.

... Realistic feedback based on feedback from what DPS can be expected in an Operation. I don't think you are getting this, so let me say loud and clear: The Ops Dummy is used since it mimics the Armor of a Raid Boss, so at its most basic level Dummy Parsing is exactly about the DPS you can expect to do in an Operation if you were able to DPS with full uptime. There is no inherent reason to go with the Ops Dummy especially since it gives lower numbers (if that is the point of the thread), only that it mimics Ops Bosses. In other words, the point of this is at its core, these threads are about how much classes can DPS in Ops, not how much they could possibly do alone.

For any of the specs with Mara/Sent, BT isn't as significant compared to Berserk since 2.0 set bonuses. Rage benefits the least and BT is about on the level of using Berserk, but for Anni and Carnage using Berserk is a higher net gain. I don't know what you're talking about with parses, I've never once used a BT at the end of a parse that I've posted because it's against the unspoken rules, on top of not netting as much DPS. Different discussion for a different thread so we can just stop here, but I've tested it and not just number crunched, it works out in favor of Berserk for a solo dummy parse except for in a double stacked opener.

I checked your parses and I was indeed mistaken. My apologies.

Oh, I did the Math. I calculated how much gain you would get from Bloodthirst, how much a Watchman Sentinel can expect from Zen, and how much Weaponmaster affected DPS. The fact is you are wrong (at least for Annihilation). Assuming you have a 1:1 choice and assuming your Dot's wouldn't have critted at_all_without Berserk (an extraordinarily unlikely occurrence), it is still a 1000 Damage loss (that is best case for your scenario). I don't know what gave you this notion, but it is wrong. And for the record, Marauders can now generate Fury with Bloodthirst up. I hope that was the issue.

For the discussion point that the devs put the AR debuff into the game to balance things, you're reading way too far into it. It's just another credit sink and shiny object to keep people's waning attention to this game.

Really, a 1k object is a credit sink. Considering how many people already had that droid I don't see the big advantage. A 1k object that shows up right before the next round of Class Questions that were directly driven by Dummy DPS and were a debacle for Bioware. I believe I have yet to encounter a single person against Armor Debuff sans you, I think your opinion is severely the minority.