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Respect Revan


MasterMe

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I am a big Revan fan. He is awesome -- and that is partly because he is not overpowered.

 

It's like Superman. A character is pretty boring if he can't be beaten, if you don't fear for him. Revan is a bad***, but he isn't unbeatable.

 

I agree with OP. Revan could duel all these bigshots for a bit. That is my opinion. It is also my opinion that he doesn't have a huge chance of beating them. It isn't a set-in-stone thing, however; everyone makes mistakes, everyone gets distracted. And at the level these guys are at, one distraction can be the end of a fight. Look at how Palpatine -- the Super Sith -- went down. He didn't see Vader coming. So just because one character is more powerful with the Force -- whether that "power" is measured in knowledge or raw strength -- or is a better duelist, that doesn't mean they win 100% of the time. Just a little something to keep in mind.

 

Setting aside for the moment the tricky issue of whether or not Revan's "Force Balancing/Juggling" is canon, you need to look at whether balance is all that great in a fight, a single fight. Being "balanced," it is unlikely that Revan could hope to match Palpatine or Luke in any Force duels. Revan is said to be skilled in a variety of diverse Force techniques -- meaning lightning AND healing, which I consider diverse when they're found in the grasp of a single individual -- but, to my knowledge, isn't said to have mastered any of them (I could be wrong there, though). So Sidious could "out-lightning" him, because Revan likely hasn't focused nearly as much on his Force lightning skills as Sidious has.

 

In regards to Ki-Adi-Mundi beating Revan -- I must say I'm skeptical. Yes, Ki-Adi-Mundi is a powerful member of what is said to be one of the greatest Jedi Councils of all time, but Revan went up against Darth Malak when Malak had the power of the Star Forge behind him, and won. Revan went up against (spoiler for the Revan novel and at least one TOR class story)

the Sith Emperor Vitiate (who I bet is in the Top 5 Bad Dudes Division, since he has the know-how to suck the life off an entire planet) and NEARLY won. True, he could have easily lost the fight -- but it was still in the cards for him to win.

So I'm not so certain Ki-Adi-Mundi, great Jedi though he is, could reliably be said to have a good chance of beating Revan.

 

As said before, Revan wasn't at his prime when he appeared on the Foundry, and from what I've seen, most of the Versus threads state that participants are considered to be at their very best at the moment of the fight. Plus (WARNING: OPINION AHEAD), I think the fight between the Four Speeder-Bikers of the Empire and Reborn Revan is waaaaaay too complicated to draw much from. There is no CANON "choreography," if you will, of how that fight went down. Some of the Four Speeder-Bikers could have ended up in kolto tanks from that bout; the Agent could have sniped Revan in the face while he was monologueing; we don't know. All we know about that, is that somehow, the Four Speeder-Bikers won.

 

Let me address the Kreia thing...

Here's how I see it. Kreia adored Revan. Kreia saw big things for the Exile. Kreia lied so much that is impossible to say, "Kreia said so, so that's PROOF!" Yes, at the end of her life, Kreia made some predictions. That she wasn't wrong about those predictions is not proof that she didn't lie about the other stuff she said at that time, defeated or no. It is possible to lie in one breath and tell the truth in the next :)

 

In regards to a Revan vs. Malgus (or Satele/other NPC of the time) match-up:

Malgus is a beast. I don't know nearly as much about him as I'd like. But I DO know Revan rather well, and I'd say Malgus is the underdog in this fight, because, let's face it, Malgus is not and never was a PC :) All kidding aside, I'm thinking Revan has as good a chance of beating Malgus as Malgus has of beating him. Revan is a good enough lightsaber duelist that he can hold his own against an opponent long enough for SOMETHING to happen that would either distract him or distract Malgus. Same with Force abilities and general fortitude. I think whoever wavered first would lose, as they are both skilled enough to take advantage of any openings. My opinion, not too many facts, so take it or leave it :)

(As far as PC vs Revan battles go, at the end of Act III, I'd give it to Revan; but remember, the PCs are not yet at their prime.)

 

TL;DNR:

Revan good. Revan bad. Revan beast. But Revan no Luke-level, and that a GOOD thing.

 

Sorry for the walls of text :)

 

Thank God! A sympathiser! I've been feeling all alone out here. You speak the truth.

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Aurbere: When it comes to Love, you and I just aren't talking about the same thing so I'll leave that alone.

 

But you cannot make a statement like saying all of the Jedi you named are better then Revan. You COULD say that the Jedi of Revan's era where generally not as good as the Jedi you named. But there's nothing that says 100% of the Jedi Masters of that time would be better then Revan. In my OPINION Revan is better then most of these guys. With the exception of Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke (and perhaps a few men from New Jedi Order),

 

But hey, this isn't about my opinion.

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You have argued facts, but only facts about Revan. And some of what was posted was only your opinion. What I am trying to tell you is that canonically, Revan can not hold his own against Jedi and Sith of the future. I've stated it numerous times.

 

I wasn't trying to come off as attacking your opinion, but when it comes to educating people you must use facts and not opinion.

 

Canonically, there's nothing that ever said that. You can say it all you want but that doesn't make it fact.

 

Also, I've not been "educating" people with my opinion. I don't know where you got that from.

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Aurbere: When it comes to Love, you and I just aren't talking about the same thing so I'll leave that alone.

 

But you cannot make a statement like saying all of the Jedi you named are better then Revan. You COULD say that the Jedi of Revan's era where generally not as good as the Jedi you named. But there's nothing that says 100% of the Jedi Masters of that time would be better then Revan. In my OPINION Revan is better then most of these guys. With the exception of Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke (and perhaps a few men from New Jedi Order),

 

But hey, this isn't about my opinion.

 

Yes that is your opinion, but you can't argue with facts. GL and Chee have stated multiple times that the PT Jedi and the subsequent New Jedi Order are the best. And canon proves it. I'm going to make a thread that talks about this so I wont spoil anything for you. Just know that it is G-canon that the PT kicks OR butt and I'll set out to prove that in my next thread.

 

I respect your opinion, but PT beating OR is fact. You can have your opinion and I will respect it. Just don't accuse me of posting my opinion when I have been posting facts. The only opinion I posted was Plo Koon having a good chance of beating Mace Windu in a duel. THAT is my opinion and the only opinion that I will put forth.

 

Anyway, we've argued for six pages so lets agree to disagree and be done with it.

Edited by Aurbere
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Brandon: I would agree with you for the most part. Here's where our thoughts vary:

 

I don't think that Luke and Sidious would wipe the floor with Revan. Granted I think they'd beat him, but not like a landslide victory as you say. However, I think Revan could come pretty close with Sidious. That's all my OPINION. I don't think anyone has to agree with this specific thought of mine because it isn't supported by canon.

 

And I also think that using both sides of the force would be poweful as well as upredictable. But you've got to realize that he isn't using the passions of the dark side to their fullest. Revan is only using passions like love and compassion (this is canon 'cause it said so in the book). So it's not as contradictory as some may think.

 

Lets debate. What does Revan, canon and ability wise, have that can top Sidious?

 

Sidious beat Yoda, and Yoda is canonly the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. And Revan in his prime is Jedi. This is stated by Leland Chee himself.

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

This was taken from Leland Chee himself. Sidious was more powerful than Yoda. Yoda realized that directly facing Sidious was doomed to failure. It also states that Sidious was too powerful for him to defeat. Nowhere does it state that Yoda wasn't in his prime. It pretty much comes down to this. Yoda may be the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. However, Sidious was simply a more powerful Sith. If you watch the scenes you'll notice that except in two instances it almost seemed as if Sidious was playing with him. The only two times he seemed worried was when he was being pushed back in a saber lock and also when Yoda was absorbing his force lightning.

 

(Off-topic: If only Rhyltran was still on the Forums)

 

And EU Sidious is just outright godly in terms of the Dark-Side. Creating Force Storms that consumed planets and New Republic Fleets.

 

 

And Luke is canonically 200% of Sidious.

 

And for those that are gonna bring up Sid's duel with Mace. Because someone will.

 

Notice in the saber duel between Sidious and Windu when Sidious was being forced back the entire time he seemed very unhappy. If it was his personally not to take things seriously he'd be smiling and laughing during that too but he isn't. It's also been confirmed that Sidious did lose the lightsaber bout with mace but that's understandable given that's Mace windu's strongest element. In revenge of the sith it stated that just before Sidious stopped with the lightning Windu was going to lose his grip on his saber.

 

So.. it goes like this..

 

Sidious saber combat < Windu's saber combat.

 

Sidious Saber skill = Yoda's saber skill

 

Sidious use of the force > Both Windu and Yoda.

 

Note during Windu's duel with Sidious he gave himself more fully to his form Vaapad than ever before. He tapped into what he was afraid would corrupt him. Making him far more powerful than before. It's likely in that moment in his duel with Sidious Windu was truly at his best and most likely rivaled Yoda at that specific point. Maybe even stronger for the moment. I believe (and this part is speculation) if he did win against Sidious he probably would have fallen at that point

 

You can argue with anyone else about Revan being pinned against any Opponent EXCEPT for Sidious and Luke because its literally canon they would wipe the floor with anyone besides eachother or Abeloth...

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Sure, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want readers to be confused.

 

You are using a fallacy when you say that ALL Jedi of the New Jedi Order are better the ALL Jedi of the Old Republic (specifically Revan). This fallacy is called generalization I believe. No one ever said that that 100% of all Jedi of the New Republic are better then 100% of the Jedi of the Old Republic.

 

What they meant is that the Jedi of the New Republic are GENERALLY better then that of the Old Republic. This does not mean that guys like Ki-Adi-Mundi are necessarily better then Revan. There's nothing that ever said that. Granted Ki-Adi-Mundi may possibly be better then Revan (although not in my OPINION), but there is no such evidence to prove it. Enough said.

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Lets debate. What does Revan, canon and ability wise, have that can top Sidious?

 

Sidious beat Yoda, and Yoda is canonly the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. And Revan in his prime is Jedi. This is stated by Leland Chee himself.

 

 

 

(Off-topic: If only Rhyltran was still on the Forums)

 

And EU Sidious is just outright godly in terms of the Dark-Side. Creating Force Storms that consumed planets and New Republic Fleets.

 

 

And Luke is canonically 200% of Sidious.

 

And for those that are gonna bring up Sid's duel with Mace. Because someone will.

 

 

 

You can argue with anyone else about Revan being pinned against any Opponent EXCEPT for Sidious and Luke because its literally canon they would wipe the floor with anyone besides eachother or Abeloth...

 

What you say may be true, but like I've said before, this is waaaaaay off topic. All I'm saying is that Revan is in the same ball park as guys like Kun, Bane, and Malgus. This is a modest statement and I feel it is definately supported by canon.

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Sure, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want readers to be confused.

 

.

 

This is part where I don't like Revanites.

 

 

You were just telling another poster to stop with their opinions and bring fact/canon statements. I brought canon fact and you completely dismissed it saying "we can agree to disagree."

 

This is seen in allot of Revanites, asking for canon fact and then when somebody brings it, its completely dismissed.

 

 

And please don't be insulted by the term "Revanite". Its just a name, like the Exile fans are the Exiles or something like that.

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Sure, we can agree to disagree. I just don't want readers to be confused.

 

You are using a fallacy when you say that ALL Jedi of the New Jedi Order are better the ALL Jedi of the Old Republic (specifically Revan). This fallacy is called generalization I believe. No one ever said that that 100% of all Jedi of the New Republic are better then 100% of the Jedi of the Old Republic.

 

What they meant is that the Jedi of the New Republic are GENERALLY better then that of the Old Republic. This does not mean that guys like Ki-Adi-Mundi are necessarily better then Revan. There's nothing that ever said that. Granted Ki-Adi-Mundi may possibly be better then Revan (although not in my OPINION), but there is no such evidence to prove it. Enough said.

 

Alright let's just leave it at that. You have your view and I have mine. I'm sure someone else will pick up where I left off, but I'm gonna just leave it here. Fun debate no matter what was said.

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Ah, a light bulb came up in my head.

 

Love is a emotion. Emotion isn't part of the light side. So therefore, if you use love, then you're using a unorthodox force belief.

 

You say that Revan cannot use both sides of the force. Perhaps this statement isn't as contraversial as you think.

 

Take Luke for example. Did he not love Mara Jade? Is that right?

 

If this is so, they why do you refuse to believe that Revan can't weild the force as the novel says? Have you ever read the novel? Because if you think about it both Luke and Revan use love. If you can believe Revan using the force as stated, then why can't you believe Revan could do the same?

 

Listen, even if Revan didn't use both sides he is still a powerful being.

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This is part where I don't like Revanites.

 

 

You were just telling another poster to stop with their opinions and bring fact/canon statements. I brought canon fact and you completely dismissed it saying "we can agree to disagree."

 

This is seen in allot of Revanites, asking for canon fact and then when somebody brings it, its completely dismissed.

 

 

And please don't be insulted by the term "Revanite". Its just a name, like the Exile fans are the Exiles or something like that.

 

Brandon, I wasn't talking to you when I said that. You misunderstood me.

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Ah, a light bulb came up in my head.

 

Love is a emotion. Emotion isn't part of the light side. So therefore, if you use love, then you're using a unorthodox force belief.

 

You say that Revan cannot use both sides of the force. Perhaps this statement isn't as contraversial as you think.

 

Take Luke for example. Did he not love Mara Jade? Is that right?

 

If this is so, they why do you refuse to believe that Revan can't weild the force as the novel says? Have you ever read the novel? Because if you think about it both Luke and Revan use love. If you can believe Revan using the force as stated, then why can't you believe Revan could do the same?

 

Like I said before, I'm with you. Revan is a powerful Jedi and a great character but he is severely diminished in the presence of canonically more powerful beings like Sidious, Kun, Vader, Luke,Yoda and on and on.

 

Listen, even if Revan didn't use both sides he is still a powerful being.

 

Because George Lucas said you can't. It's G-canon, which means in the SWU it's like the word of God being handed down to us mere mortals,regardless of whether you think said "God" is an idiot,genius or both.

 

No matter what the novel said, it's lesser canon than G-canon and is trumped by what Lucas and Chee say. You can disagree and choose to believe something else in your personal perception of the SWU but the fact remains G-canon offically says it can't be done.

Edited by Temeluchus
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Ah, a light bulb came up in my head.

 

Love is a emotion. Emotion isn't part of the light side. So therefore, if you use love, then you're using a unorthodox force belief.

 

You say that Revan cannot use both sides of the force. Perhaps this statement isn't as contraversial as you think.

 

Take Luke for example. Did he not love Mara Jade? Is that right?

 

If this is so, they why do you refuse to believe that Revan can't weild the force as the novel says? Have you ever read the novel? Because if you think about it both Luke and Revan use love. If you can believe Revan using the force as stated, then why can't you believe Revan could do the same?

 

Listen, even if Revan didn't use both sides he is still a powerful being.

 

What happened with Luke and Mara Jade is a perfect example to why Light-Siders can't Love.

 

 

When she died, he went out on a rage mode with Lumiya(If I remember correctly). Do you hear me? RAGE MODE!

 

Thats why PJO don't practice Love because losing it could turn you to the Dark-Side.

 

Luke isn't fully Light-Sided, when he gets ANGRY he sometimes will use a Dark-Side Ability. Samething with Kyle Katarn. But they will never use them at the same time. You can't be angry and Peaceful at the same time!

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Because George Lucas said you can't. It's G-canon, which means in the SWU it's like the word of God being handed down to us mere mortals,regardless of whether you think said "God" is an idiot,genius or both.

 

No matter what the novel said, it's lesser canon than G-canon and is trumped by what Lucas and Chee say. You can disagree and choose to believe something else in your personal perception of the SWU but the fact remains G-canon offically says it can't be done.

 

I understand that.

 

I guess I'm not arguing with canon so much as wondering out-loud if perhaps Luke used something similar to Revan. You don't think so? He obviously loved Mara Jade. So what do you make of that?

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What happened with Luke and Mara Jade is a perfect example to why Light-Siders can't Love.

 

 

When she died, he went out on a rage mode with Lumiya(If I remember correctly). Do you hear me? RAGE MODE!

 

Thats why PJO don't practice Love because losing it could turn you to the Dark-Side.

 

Luke isn't fully Light-Sided, when he gets ANGRY he sometimes will use a Dark-Side Ability. Samething with Kyle Katarn. But they will never use them at the same time. You can't be angry and Peaceful at the same time!

 

I suppose that this is true........... darnit. I guess my Luke analogy wasn't as great as I thought.

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Revan like most characters tends to be.....

 

Somewhat Overrated by their biggest Fans

Somewhat Underrated by their biggest critcs

 

However, I will say that Revan seems to be more extreme than most - Where he is VERY Overrated by a lot of his fans and VERY underrated by a lot of his critics.... (although I would tend to say that the Overrating is probably the greater factor :) )

 

however, I am still finding that there is probably still quite a lot of key information out there about him that we don't know (which people tend to fill in the gaps with opinion) -

 

For instance - talking of Duelling - can someone actually tell me Canonically which Lightsaber form/form(s) Revan was trained in - and to what degree?

It is pretty hard to really accurately assess a (Duelling) matchup with him vs whoever without this kind of info for a start......

 

Although, I am not a subscriber of the PT Jedi beating everything before them - (I won't get into the details for a long debate)...

But lets say I match up Ki Adi Mundi vs Exar Kun...... I would give that matchup to Exar Kun..... and he was a Sith Lord of an era BEFORE that of Revan - to me it is still more about the specific individual.......

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^^^ Yeah, Revan is a very polarized character in the Star Wars community. People either love him or hate him. However, I see way more Revan and Revanite bashing on these forums than anything else. "I hate revanites, they argue against cannon", "Revanites are so stupid, we have facts". Well, facts and cannon or not, that is still trolling in the sense that it provokes people that like Revan into arguing. Either that or they are part of that Star Wars Elitist, ego-stroking crowd that gets off on showing everybody else up with their uber knowledge of every fact and cannon in Star Wars.

 

I sense this topic is more about the bashing than it is about cannon and facts; otherwise, the topic maker wouldn't have had the nerve to respond to all the sharp criticism that rears its head all the time.

 

This topic is more of a response to a sentiment ubiquitous on the forums more than it is a statement.

Edited by CephalicRex
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Revan like most characters tends to be.....

 

Somewhat Overrated by their biggest Fans

Somewhat Underrated by their biggest critcs

 

However, I will say that Revan seems to be more extreme than most - Where he is VERY Overrated by a lot of his fans and VERY underrated by a lot of his critics.... (although I would tend to say that the Overrating is probably the greater factor :) )

 

however, I am still finding that there is probably still quite a lot of key information out there about him that we don't know (which people tend to fill in the gaps with opinion) -

 

For instance - talking of Duelling - can someone actually tell me Canonically which Lightsaber form/form(s) Revan was trained in - and to what degree?

It is pretty hard to really accurately assess a (Duelling) matchup with him vs whoever without this kind of info for a start......

 

Although, I am not a subscriber of the PT Jedi beating everything before them - (I won't get into the details for a long debate)...

But lets say I match up Ki Adi Mundi vs Exar Kun...... I would give that matchup to Exar Kun..... and he was a Sith Lord of an era BEFORE that of Revan - to me it is still more about the specific individual.......

 

You're absolutely right. Especially about the Ki-Adi-Mundi vs Exar Kun debate. It's all about the specific individual.

 

And about Revan's duel form, all we know is that he tends to use a single lightsaber. Aside from that, we know very little. As a matter of opinion, I think Revan wouldn't have necessarily focused on mastering a single form. I'd guess that he semi-mastered several forms. But that's just a guess.

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^^^ Yeah, Revan is a very polarized character in the Star Wars community. People either love him or hate him. However, I see way more Revan and Revanite bashing on these forums than anything else. "I hate revanites, they argue against cannon", "Revanites are so stupid, we have facts". Well, facts and cannon or not, that is still trolling in the sense that it provokes people that like Revan into arguing. Either that or they are part of that Star Wars Elitist, ego-stroking crowd that gets off on showing everybody else up with their uber knowledge of every fact and cannon in Star Wars.

 

I sense this topic is more about the bashing than it is about cannon and facts; otherwise, the topic maker wouldn't have had the nerve to respond to all the sharp criticism that rears its head all the time.

 

This topic is more of a response to a sentiment ubiquitous on the forums more than it is a statement.

 

Yes this forum was originally a response.

 

I don't know what you're saying about "bashing." I've made a honest, modest argument. Yes I've stated my opinion on several occasions, but I've drawn a clear line between opinion and fact.

 

Could you please point out when I "haven't had the nerve to respond to sharp criticism"?

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Ha-ha, none of that post had anything to do to you. I was referring to the "Anti-Revanites"--we'll call them that--that constantly use any opportunity Revan is mentioned to desparage his fans and one up people with Star Wars knowledge taken from many late nights on wookiepedia.

 

If I want to directly address you, I will quote you.

Edited by CephalicRex
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I look at it this way.

 

On any given sunday, any dog has his day.

 

You can say "Oh in his prime [insert force user] here would win and win easily".

 

How can we know that? Unless it is written by an author and signed off by the grand master of the SW universe papa george, what we know...is CRAP.

 

Yes Revan, Malgas, Malak and the list goes on are very powerful force users. Who'd win and when? That's a debate that won't ever be answered unless it's written and signed off by papa george.

 

Till then, it's all conjecture. If you like your characters then like them, hell love them. Just stop bashing over a point of view. All this is, a point of view.

 

Though my favorite force user once you trained him, Atton Rand...nothing better than a smuggler turned jedi.

 

Though overall, my favorite characters in Star Wars land...Republic commandos, Delta and Omega squads plus the Nulls.

 

I think Jaing and Mereel are my two favs but i love Kal's private army.

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I look at it this way.

 

On any given sunday, any dog has his day.

 

You can say "Oh in his prime [insert force user] here would win and win easily".

 

How can we know that? Unless it is written by an author and signed off by the grand master of the SW universe papa george, what we know...is CRAP.

 

Yes Revan, Malgas, Malak and the list goes on are very powerful force users. Who'd win and when? That's a debate that won't ever be answered unless it's written and signed off by papa george.

 

Till then, it's all conjecture. If you like your characters then like them, hell love them. Just stop bashing over a point of view. All this is, a point of view.

 

Though my favorite force user once you trained him, Atton Rand...nothing better than a smuggler turned jedi.

 

Though overall, my favorite characters in Star Wars land...Republic commandos, Delta and Omega squads plus the Nulls.

 

I think Jaing and Mereel are my two favs but i love Kal's private army.

 

Yeah, It's too bad they didn't finish the Republic Commando books.

 

But you're right. Unless they've fought eachother in a book/movie/game or unless George said so himself, then we really don't know for sure.

 

But I'm not sure I'd say I'm bashing a point of view around. Yes, I've thrown in a few exclamation points. All I've said is that Revan ISN'T a pushover, he IS a powerful being. This is a modest statement that is supported by fact. Just look at Wookieepedia. That place pretty much sums it up. Compare him to some other powerful being, like Bane for example. I'm not saying Revan would win, but they're in the same ballpark.

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Ha-ha, none of that post had anything to do to you. I was referring to the "Anti-Revanites"--we'll call them that--that constantly use any opportunity Revan is mentioned to desparage his fans and one up people with Star Wars knowledge taken from many late nights on wookiepedia.

 

If I want to directly address you, I will quote you.

 

Ah, I see. I'm getting so used to people hating me I assumed this was directed toward me lol.

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