I don't think you understand the psyche of dedicated pvper. Boredom is from lack of playable content or bad balance or FOTM. People don't get bored because they can't grind gear.

Player progression for pvpers is sharpening our skills and improving them against better players.

Exactly this. I certainly hope the designers do not think they need to give PvP this gear progression to keep us playing, when in reality this detracts from it. Myself, and many others I've talked to, will NOT PvP until full BiS. So here we are, with a veteran PvPer who would play a ton of warzones a week in 4.0 that has barely played in warzones since 5.0 launch because he is almost, but not quite to BiS. Instead warzones are filled with bumbling PvEers trying to gear up thus avoiding their progression. So rather than adding a gear progression for PvPers, you've given a shortcut for the PvEers progression.

But to Icykills point, PvPers do not gear progress, if bolster was set to 250 we'd be playing all our alts in there happily opening CXP crates for the cosmetic gear we get, but that's really all it is to us cosmetic. Real PvP is skill versus skill, not this clown song-and-dance we are expected to do before we can start the real game.

It should be 250.

You do not understand, obviously. Try reading what someone posts before random response that is meaningless. Let me simplify it for you.

1.) Command System (this is new, we haven't had this since 2012).

2.) Because of Command System people who do not like pvp, will not like pvp, will only pvp for as long as they HAVE to to get gear are doing pvp. (Also, this is new, never had this in 2012). Prior to Command System, anyone who didn't want to PvP......didn't PvP.

3.) When those people are done gearing up, and most will still hate PvP, what do you think they will do? More pvp? No, of course not. So they are gone.

4.) While the system got rid of many veterans and the populations were temporarily inflated with people who hate pvp things may look good on populations reports, all of a sudden the pvp haters stop queueing...what happens to the queues and populations?

Let me add to that by saying "if" those pve guys are having fun in pvp they may learn to like it and continue playing once they are geared.

But they won't end up liking it if they are getting smashed due to a gear gap. Make pvp fun, it's a game, it's supposed to fun.

not in pvp.

Agreed

Then....even if by your assumption they will automatically hate pvp (which is a stretch, but sure, let's go with it)..... you still haven't figured in all the alts they need to gear..... So again, the process starts over. Either way, it means a bigger PVP population.

Yup, you can play with all the people standing in the corner waiting for the war to end while the real-pvpers are all playing a different game... Have fun with that, the more of those the better.

The last thing that helps PvP is having PvE players come in and be dead weight simply because "muh componants" or "muh conquest". They're so much worse than those who actually come in all new and give it their all. They're literally the worst.

Yup, you can play with all the people standing in the corner waiting for the war to end while the real-pvpers are all playing a different game... Have fun with that, the more of those the better.

I love this complaint.... it's quite hilarious...... Like we didn't have people standing idle in PVP before 5.0.....

..... Let me guess, your next excuse will be that it happens more now.....

I love this complaint.... it's quite hilarious...... Like we didn't have people standing idle in PVP before 5.0.....

Same argument, different reason. People do it for conquest and all that sort of ****.

The players that don't play PvP just for the PvP.. I can miss those like a toothache tbh.

Same argument, different reason. People do it for conquest and all that sort of ****.

 

The players that don't play PvP just for the PvP.. I can miss those like a toothache tbh.

And anyone who's honest will admit it's no more a problem now than it was prior to the new gearing scheme..... Seems to me it's a very shallow complaint.

A very good point.

Simple - hypothetical patch notes:

*You can no longer carry non-subs into warzones.

They should be doing this anyway really.

You're not gonna get to display your skill if queues aren't popping. This is an MMORPG, people care about advancing their character.

Which is why removing gearing will lead to more pops as it did with 250 bolster.

People keep trying to argue it's because of extra CXP yet the feedback based on going back to threads at the time (especially after they nerfed it) shows many were not happy with the nerf and many said they would no longer bother Pvping even with the extra CXP.

There is NOTHING to suggest removing gearing as a carrot and adding a (decent) vanity system would drive numbers down, plenty to suggest it would drive them up (many in this thread have said they would start Pvping in such a system, very few have said they would stop).

And anyone who's honest will admit it's no more a problem now than it was prior to the new gearing scheme..... Seems to me it's a very shallow complaint.

That's just because they added a whole bunch of crap rewards that people that arent really into PvP want to get.

That is the case now, and that was the case before 5.0 too.

Let me add to that by saying "if" those pve guys are having fun in pvp they may learn to like it and continue playing once they are geared.

But they won't end up liking it if they are getting smashed due to a gear gap. Make pvp fun, it's a game, it's supposed to fun.

I think we have seen many MMOs go with trying to make PVP fun for all...... This usually occurs 6 months prior to the shutdown.... The gear gap needs to be closed but not by a simple bolster as it would not fix the issue. 246 gear should drop a bit more often and those who want to PVP should strive to obtain it, know rotations, know the maps. Bolster requires no effort at all and People who don't even want to put any effort in will still be driving PVPers nuts and they will still be fodder. The only difference is that the WZs will last signicantly longer because it will take an extra 2.5 seconds to kill them.

In protest PVPers should que OPs with no gear and aggro mobs after all doing OPs is just for fun........ I am sure everyone will just laugh and offer friendly advice and encouragement.

As many have said:

1- PVPers don't play for gear progression, we'll still log in and play without it, because warzones are each time a different experience, unlike PVE.

2- PVP should be about "skills", ergo the gear should be normalized as much as possible.

3 - Many want to play their alts, and feel heavily discouraged by the gear cap.

So yes, bolster should go up to tier 4 or at least tier 3. We still have to mix max and buy augments.

Which is why removing gearing will lead to more pops as it did with 250 bolster.

 

People keep trying to argue it's because of extra CXP yet the feedback based on going back to threads at the time (especially after they nerfed it) shows many were not happy with the nerf and many said they would no longer bother Pvping even with the extra CXP.

 

There is NOTHING to suggest removing gearing as a carrot and adding a (decent) vanity system would drive numbers down, plenty to suggest it would drive them up (many in this thread have said they would start Pvping in such a system, very few have said they would stop).

You can go back and pick and choose your feedback. Some players cared about the CXP nerf, some players cared about the bolster nerf, some cared about both.

Neither of us are in the position to assume the majority opinion.

As a PvE/PvP player myself, I can just say that I went from doing a lot of PvP to very little in the past few months. Primarily due to rewards and premade domination.

You can go back and pick and choose your feedback. Some players cared about the CXP nerf, some players cared about the bolster nerf, some cared about both.

 

Neither of us are in the position to assume the majority opinion.

 

As a PvE/PvP player myself, I can just say that I went from doing a lot of PvP to very little in the past few months. Primarily due to rewards and premade domination.

The funny thing is premades aren't that big an issue when there isn't a gear gap. Most premades are people gearing or needing support from friends. There are very rarely dedicated pvpers running premades in regs when there is no gear gap. The only time will be in a social situation to hang out and it wouldn't matter if they were in a premades or not.

Remove the gear gap and some of the premades issues will dissipate as well.

Hi Eric,

Maybe you could post some info on Bolster and how it's supposed to work. I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding in the community on how it really works or doesn't work.

While PVP should be about skill it's also important for players who grinded out full optimized 248 gear not to feel like noob pvp'ers are getting access to the same potential DPS or HPS as they are despite not putting in anywhere near as much time working to get their optimized gear; there should be a gear gap in PVP but not a huge one.

But how big do you propose?

While PVP should be about skill it's also important for players who grinded out full optimized 248 gear not to feel like noob pvp'ers are getting access to the same potential DPS or HPS as they are despite not putting in anywhere near as much time working to get their optimized gear; there should be a gear gap in PVP but not a huge one.

As someone who grinded a multitude of characters to 248 I totally disagree with this notion.

I would welcome completely fresh 70's to be completely equal to me gearwise.

I want the game to be fair, not advantaged because of time spent. Thats a thing for PvE but not for PvP.

It literally doesn't matter that my grind would be "pointless".

The importance of a level playing field far outweighs the side-effects of this drawback.

But how big do you propose?

Just spittballin here, about 5%? I believe the current stat gap is much larger?

As someone who grinded a multitude of characters to 248 I totally disagree with this notion.

I would welcome completely fresh 70's to be completely equal to me gearwise.

 

I want the game to be fair, not advantaged because of time spent. Thats a thing for PvE but not for PvP.

 

It literally doesn't matter that my grind would be "pointless".

The importance of a level playing field far outweighs the side-effects of this drawback.

I'm just saying there should be some sort of reward for taking the time to acquire top tier gear, the time taken to get 248 should probably be reduced though.

The funny thing is premades aren't that big an issue when there isn't a gear gap. Most premades are people gearing or needing support from friends. There are very rarely dedicated pvpers running premades in regs when there is no gear gap.

I don't see that. Premades started picking up around the time UC rewards came out, as the difference in reward between winning and losing spiked up massively. When the CXP reward is so low, the only reason to PvP is for UC's which are double the reward for winning.

When winning is so much more beneficial, you're gonna want friends to guarantee the win.

Because it is. Not saying it's the "only" way to do it, but it's certainly one very easy and fast way to do it.

Which then, surprisingly, puts forth evidence that your option of 238 is completely unfavourable over 242. If 242 is acquireable within two hours for PvE players, then bolster should be 242 to lessen the disparity of PvP players having to PvP for ages for the same gear. It's like giving imperial players a free set of end-game gear, but telling republic players to go and farm it. Yes, this kind of balance for PvE and PvP players is very important. If PvE players can achieve gear ten times faster than PvP players, but that same gear gives them a competitive edge about said PvP veterans, then you'll diminish PvP numbers in the process.

It seems every other successfull game out there understands this, seeing that PvP in FFXIV, WoW and other games is strictly seperated and doesn't offer such an advantage. It seems only in this community you'll find people who defend this.

Judging by your responses, you haven't even tried. But yes, it's an easy and fast option available for anyone who wants to take it. Again, maybe when the Q isn't popping for pvp, you might just try throwing it out in gen chat to see if there are any takers. Unless you're asserting that guilds don't exist on your server, in which case I would most definitely call BS.

Yes, I'm saying that guilds who just readily run HM multiple times a week don't exist all that much on an RP server. RP servers in general have a less competitive PvE and PvP playerbase in most MMORPGs. This strategy might work easily on Harbinger and Red Eclipse, which are PvE servers and are advertised as such, but RP servers have a less competitive community.

And you don't get the point: A PvE player should not be able to gear for PvP a hundred times faster than a PvP player by doing his PvE content, and the PvP player shouldn't be forced to do PvE (no matter how brief) to get the same thing as a PvE player in his environment.

I would be ready to bet real money that I could transfer to that server tomorrow and find a guild that does just that, or at the very least pug one myself.

Be my guest.

Which in almost every case never would have come up had there not been a complete fallacy stated about gearing and such, or we had not been TOLD we didn't have a right to an opinion on the subject, which is still a hilarious notion.

First: I've read all the posts you quoted, and almost none of them had fallacies in it. They had different subjective opinions in it about how quick gearing should be, and they expressed their feelings on the subject. Not agreeing with someone stating gearing is too hard is not a fallacy. You can say you disagree, but it's not a fallacy if his subjective opinion is that gearing is too long.

Secondly: Nobody told you that you didn't have the right to an opinion. What people were questioning is that not every opinion is as valid as the next one on a certain topic just because it exists and you're allowed to have it. A little example: If I was having a medical problem, I would value the opinion of someone who has worked as a doctor (or is currently a doctor) more than of some electrician who's visiting my house. Yeah, he can obviously tell me I am overreacting to my stomache ache and the vomitting. It's just vomit and nothing serious. But I'll not give a sh*t about his opinion.

And that was what people pointed out: PvE players can have an opinion all they like, but they don't get to tell PvP players on how they have to feel about PvP gearing being too fast/too slow. PvP players aren't going into the flashpoint and operation forum and posting stuff about how gearing in operations is too easy, and how they want UC in operations to gear "harder."

And always in response..... Just like this one.

Which is completely besides the point I was making. Tons of posts in this thread are just you arguing with people who have a different opinion, and telling them things like "gear is important", "PvP players would quit", "we must have gear in PvP", and you're trying to argue this from an objective point of view when that is your subjective feeling. And, strangely enough, you horribly inflate these thread's numbers by arguing with most people who want a different bolster than you, and then come around and claim so many people in this thread are against high bolster. Speaking in hyperbole, half this thread's post disagreeing with high bolster are coming from your end...Y

It's bullsh*t. The only numbers we have is this: It seems that on many servers, PvP participation since 5.1 has dropped to a low. This is true on the Progenitor. It's probably just as true on Harbinger and Red Eclipse.

But this gearing system isn't changing anytime soon.

So?

We can still put forward ideas for a new gearing system come 6.0, and we should make sure that Bioware sees it. Ben "Thrill of the RNG" Irving has, sadly, not worked out all that well. If they are clever, they will reverse this stupid decision now that Keith is in charge and take it from there. Yes, that won't happen overnight, but it's mandatory that they give us a rundown. And gearing and bolster are two closely intertwined topics.

And you didn't seem to get the point of that entire paragraph again. The more you talk about this, the more you'll notice that 236/238 bolster over 242s doesn't make sense because of the evidence you put forward:

PvE gearing is majorly advantageous over PvP gearing. PvE players can gear faster for PvP than PvP players ever could. And it doesn't matter whether you perceive the option of HM as available for PvP players. The simple fact is that no PvP player should ever be told to do PvE for his PvP(!) gear in two hours, or face doing what he likes (PvP) for six weeks to get the same result. And to even that playing field, bolster should be at least at 242. That way, PvE players can still keep their ridiculously easy gear progression, whereas PvP players can enjoy to be on even footing while just doing what they like.

If gear isn't changing anytime soon, then bolster must change. And given what you tell us, the only way to ensure fairness between the two play modes is to set it to at least 242.

But that's not the case. A PVE player, beginner that is, has the same hill to climb.

No, by your own admission, he hasn't. And don't even try to say "strawman", "putting words in your mouth", and all that other bullsh*t people will write when they are arguing in circles. This is a quote from you: It is possible to gear in full 242 by having a guild pull you through HM operations for two and a half to three hours.

If you truly believe that, and you aren't just saying it to have any argument at all, you're essentially denying your own claim up there. It is not possible to gear for PvP in PvP in full 242s within three hours. Period. It's one of these: "Well, in theory he has a choice and he can since it is technically available, but it costs credits or luck, and the person must do content he doesn't like to achieve the gear he needs for totally different content to be competitive against me in his own environment." arguments, and these are mostly idiotic circle-arguments. PvE players aren't forced into PvP to be competitive quick. They can be 242s and NiM ready in two hours. PvP players are forced into PvE (no matter how briefly) to stand the same change against PvE players. Essentially: One is having the luxury of not facing a choice. The other one has no choice disguised as a choice.

If a PvE player can be 242 equipped in three hours by doing PvE, and a PvP player can be equipped in 242s by doing PvP for six weeks, then the two don't have the same situation at all. The PvE player doesn't have to choose anything. He can just do his content and steamroll players in other content. The PvP player is forced out of his content, or he must endure tideous gearing for weeks to be at the same point.

In your example, that hill is a two hours cakewalk on one side, with fresh drinks and a donkey to ride on, and the other side is a smoldering lava death trap with dangerous hill tribes and poisonous plants. Once both are at the top (242s), they are at the very same point, but the way they got there was bloody different. But the worst part is that both are competing for the same gold medal (competitiveness in PvP). And you're now handing out gold medals to both, but the one on the chaotic side of the hill has done much more work.

And the worst part: Once the guy complains why the other person receives a gold medal too, but how he has done basically no work, that other guy just tells him he could always have walked up the other side.

This disparity between people who play PvE and who like to play PvP is staggering. And the worst part: It is indefensible from any gameplay-design point of view. Whoever thought of this was, sadly, not a very good game developer. If he had taken one look at the successfull MMORPG players out there, he'd have noticed how utterly ridiculous this system is. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Ben "Thrill of the RNG" Irving.

PVP has a very quick option for getting to 242, the rest of the grind is something they love.

Oh, so you're not the expert on what PvP players love, huh?

Because, and this might be surprising to you, they don't seem to love it. PvP is getting emptier since 5.1. It isn't crowded with people who beat themselves to the finish line for every warzone. And that first part is also bullsh*t because PvE has that option. It's not a PvP feature. PvP players shouldn't be forced into PvE to get this system going.

Much in the same way that PvE players should receive assured 248s tokens for their work in NiM operations on a weekly basis. Period.

The 2 1/2 hour option is a shortcut to both parties if you're an inexperienced player.

You don't seem to get the bloody point.

PvP players shouldn't be forced into PvE to get to the same level as PvE players in PvP at the same time investment. If the PvP players would want to do PvE, they would do PvE. However, if they only want to do PvP, then gods help them only do PvP and still have roughly the same gear grind. They shouldn't be out-geared by people who don't do their content within two hours within their own content. They shouldn't have to pay PvE players to be competitive in PvP. They shouldn't have to rely on PvE to not be stomped by PvE players in PvP.

If the answer to the question: "How to become competitive in PvP as quickly as possible?" is at any point: "Pay PvE players to do it for you!", your system is complete nonsense.

And, yes, this discussion is a very important one to have.

Why?

Because gearing systems and bolster are closely intertwined. The easier and more accessible the first one is, the more forgiving the second one can be. Nobody wanted BiS bolster during 3.0 and 4.0, when PvP gear was basically just a week away and readily accessible on alts. It was bugged, yes, but nobody wanted bolster to go to 210. With how tideous and uninspired gearing is now, people want bolster at BiS to skip it. The two are sides of the same coin. To understand why people have a good argument and want 242 bolster or higher (out of the options presented), look at the gearing system.

TL;DR: Pure PvE players should never overtake pure PvP players in PvP after two hours of doing their PvE content. It's simply not a good system. Therefore, to even the playing field, the bolster should at least bolster to 242 to make it a fair fight for both. Whenever a system requires PvP players to do PvE, pay PvE players for runs, or be at the mercy of PvE guilds to do HM, the system needs to change dramatically. 236 bolster is not an option then. Go into any game forum like WoW and ask the PvP players whether gearing for PvP should be tremendously faster through PvE than through PvP, and that a fresh PvE player has a major advantage over a pure PvP player in battlegrounds. They'll rip your argument to shreds.

That's why I'm saying 242 is the way to go. We have to work with Eric here, and if 242 is the only and highest option, I'll take 242. It makes sense, espescially with what you point out as evidence to the contrary. But for 6.0 or for the end of this year's content cycle, maybe taking a look at PvP gearing is important too. Bolster and gearing are always closely intertwined.

Just spittballin here, about 5%? I believe the current stat gap is much larger?

 

I'm just saying there should be some sort of reward for taking the time to acquire top tier gear, the time taken to get 248 should probably be reduced though.

Have a read of one of my previous post about how BiS gear will still reward higher stats even with 250 Bolster.

I don't see that. Premades started picking up around the time UC rewards came out, as the difference in reward between winning and losing spiked up massively. When the CXP reward is so low, the only reason to PvP is for UC's which are double the reward for winning.

 

When winning is so much more beneficial, you're gonna want friends to guarantee the win.

So you are only pvping for gear rewards and not the enjoyment of just pvping?

So you are only pvping for gear rewards and not the enjoyment of just pvping?

I PvP both for rewards and for enjoyment. Losing to premades lowers both my rewards and enjoyment substantially.

Basically what I'm getting at is that bolster concerns are over-stated when the reward structure is so messed up.

Basically what I'm getting at is that bolster concerns are over-stated when the reward structure is so messed up.

I think the reward structure isn't "messed up". At this very moment, it is basically non-existant for PvP. The past ranked season has gone on for way too long, and rewards that previously required PvP (such as the guardsmen decoration) are now accessible for credits.

Don't get me wrong, I love that new decoration thing. My new SH will have dozens of these as a military outpost thing. What I'm getting at is that PvP rewards, outside of farming gear, are basically non-existant. And that isn't a good or compelling incentive to say gearing should remain the same. It should be a good boost to find other cosmetic and useful rewards for doing PvP frequently.