From a discussion with Verain in the LLC tracking penalty thread ... imagine Light Laser Cannons were buffed in some dramatic way that made them the new overpowered short-range cannon. Maybe Tracking Penalty is reduced or accuracy is increased or whatever ... such that LLC's become totally overpowered, such that people even choose them over BLC's for short-range weapons. Heck, give LLC's every perk that BLC's have (shield or armor piercing, crit chance, etc.). Be bold and quick and go totally overboard.

Why would this be any better than the current situation, where BLC's are overpowered? Because unlike BLC's, which are available on 3 ships, LLC's are available on 9 ships. A buff to LLC's is a buff to most of the variants in the game.

It may seem crazy, but I think that'd be awesome. Suddenly, you'd have T1 Scouts, T2 Scouts, T3 Scouts, T2 Strikes, T3 Strikes, T1 Gunships, T1 Bombers, T2 Bombers and T3 Bombers all with viable short-range high-angle lethality.

It wouldn't be a nerf to either of the current BLC ships, since they could both opt for LLC's if they so chose. But it would be an immense buff to almost every other ship (sorry T1 Strike ). People would still take Quads and Mediums and HLC's if they preferred range, but for short range, LLC would be the new king--but unlike BLC's, LLC's are available on the vast majority of ship variants, creating a much more interesting tapestry of ship choices than we currently have--especially for Domination, where close-range fighting under a sat is vital.

Is this the perfect, ideal solution? No of course not. But it's a cheap, quick and simple move that immediately creates more viable play options for everyone, without hitting any of the current power-builds with the nerf bat. It's a win win for everyone, and this quick change buys BioWare time to do the more nuanced balancing and fixes.

Start with LLC's overtuned ... disrupt the meta. Then after things settle, adjust the knobs some more and do the more difficult comprehensive balancing. Fix Rapids. Find the right spot for LLC's. Find the right spot for BLC's.

After all, what is there to lose? In what way could this end up any worse than what we've been playing since launch? I think we've all had our fill of BLC's at this point, haven't we? Isn't it time to shake things up and keep them interesting? The best part is it doesn't involve creating a new variant or component. All you're doing is buffing a component that the vast majority of ships already have but rarely use.

Also LLC's are so iconic. Pew pew pew! Lasers ... lasers everywhere!

From a discussion with Verain in the LLC tracking penalty thread ... imagine Light Laser Cannons were buffed in some dramatic way that made them the new overpowered short-range cannon.

In a hypothetical world like this I'd prefer we give BLCs to every ship rather than LLCs get buffed. Why? BLCs are interesting and unique relative to other laser cannons. LLCs are still "click and hold with a little spray and pray." I like the gameplay differences of the laser such as taking snap shots, clicking and firing at the edge of your arc regularly (OP or not) and I think you focus more on just spreading the OP love around (which I agree with, entirely). I'd just rather have something that feels different (and it doesn't necessarily have to be BLC, but that does suit my needs).

Why would this be any better than the current situation, where BLC's are overpowered? Because unlike BLC's, which are available on 3 ships, LLC's are available on 9 ships. A buff to LLC's is a buff to most of the variants in the game.

I agree with your assessment, but I don't think it's any better than giving BLC to every ship. I think playing a Star Guard/Rycer with BLC/HLC would be tremendously awesome and fun. Heck, I already made a suggestion in our <Bastion> mumble discussion last night that I thought would be fun (not necessarily good, but fun): new gunship with BLC/Cluster Missiles/Interdiction Missile. That would be so awesome to dogfight with!

Is this the perfect, ideal solution? No of course not. But it's a cheap, quick and simple move that immediately creates more viable play options for everyone, without hitting any of the current power-builds with the nerf bat.

Replace LLC on a variety of ships with BLC and I think I would have more fun playing ships that aren't in the "ridiculously OP trio" (cattlescout, gunsheep, pie bomber).

Fix Rapids. Find the right spot for LLC's. Find the right spot for BLC's.

That'd be nice, but I agree a quick and easy change is needed if the meta is to go anywhere (if my prediction is correct, it's nowhere pleasant next patch).

I think we've all had our fill of BLC's at this point, haven't we?

Honestly, I think the only thing that needs to go at this point is <1 second burst kills. It's the only thing that everyone seems to have a problem with. Originally, it was Bypass> Slug. Then it became Seismic/Interdiction. Slug Railgun crit one-shotting scouts isn't cool no matter how infrequently it happens (though it is satisfying if you're on the gunship). Pressing TT/BO/CF and click-holding for 1 second isn't an impressive display of skill, doesn't invite compensatory strategies nor is it fun to be on the receiving end.

Isn't it time to shake things up and keep them interesting?

Always keep things interesting! As a side note, you seem to enjoy discussing theory and potential changes. You'd be welcome on our mumble any time - we have regular discussions about this sort of thing. I think having the veterans from various servers all together would result in fun (and interesting) conversations. If you do end up hopping on (let me know), I promise to put a shock collar on Verain.

 

I agree with your assessment, but I don't think it's any better than giving BLC to every ship.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of BLC's because they don't feel very "Star Warsy" to me, and I generally dislike shotguns in shooters. But that's just a matter of personal preference. Star Wars, cinematically, has always been about spewing streams of lasers, and LLC's are patterned pretty literally off of TIE Fighter cannons. And having weapons that need at least a second or two of sustained fire to get through an opponent's shields means the target has a split second to react and evade before suffering grievous hull damage (which is not always true with BLC's).

Additionally, BLC's really do depend upon extreme mobility to be overpowered, since their damage drops off so quickly with range. They are relatively well balanced on a Gunship. It's only on a Scout, which has no problem boosting to sub-2000m range, that they are really broken. If you put BLC's on everything, Scouts would still use them far more effectively than Strikes or Gunships or Bombers. The only reason the new Gunship will be able to use BLC's in any kind of overpowered way is because of Interdiction Missile.

LLC's on the other hand, have a more gentle damage/range slope and can still deal good damage at the edge of their range. That means they'd be more viable for Strikes and Bombers which can't easily close to sub-2000m range.

More importantly, I don't think BioWare is going to add BLC's to every ship ... ever ... which is why I view a significant LLC buff as a more plausible change they could make that would have broad, meta-disrupting effects.

We've been over this; the tracking penalty on LLC's is not that big a deal.

So to use Nem's logic on you:

What ship designs do you use LLCs on?

That doesn't follow, because his logic (as you apply it) assumes that BLC's advantage is in the tracking penalty. It isn't. BLC's advantage is intrinsic to the nature of a "burst" weapon in GSF, and secondarily (but very importantly) is in the armor pen.

Well, let's put the tracking penalty argument aside (that's why I created this thread--to be a less specific discussion of what would happen if LLC's are buffed somehow).

The other thread was a question about whether the Tracking Penalty is too high. You've stated your reasoning for why you think it isn't, and that's fine, though you could stand to be less of a jerk about it in every single reply you make. I'll keep trying to treat you with respect though, in the hopes that you might afford me the same courtesy.

But getting back to this thread ... it's just proposing what I think would happen if LLC's were substantially buffed. Could be a combination of tracking penalty, rate of fire, crit chance, accuracy, piecing, etc. Clearly there is a reason no one ever uses LLC's if they have another viable choice. What would happen if that were no longer true, and what would be required to make that the case?

You shouldn't focus on LLCs in any case, they're not on the (heroic effort here people, we have to try to keep straight faces) "no finer dogfighter" FT-8 Starguard.

The real laser cannon travesty is that you can't cycle fire mode on quads through single, paired and quad. They're stuck on paired.

How are we supposed to blow away unshielded scouts with a single trigger pull if we don't have quad linked fire?

Paired fire just doesn't give you enough oommph. The other problem is that spray and pray with paired sucks too much energy, we need unlinked single fire for that.

I find it interesting that people keep comparing BLCs to shotguns. They really don't act that similarly.

IIRC the (Suspended? Cancelled? Hard to say at this point) Infiltrator class had a cone fire attack that is much more accurate to a shotgun then BLCs. If anything, a BLC behaves more closely to the burst fire mode of an (for example) M16 rifle.

I find it interesting that people keep comparing BLCs to shotguns. They really don't act that similarly.

Because the flavor text for BLC's calls them scatterguns (which is SWTOR-speak for shotgun), because each shot is represented visual as a spread of bolts, and because in terms of game role they are very similar to FPS shotguns.

You shouldn't focus on LLCs in any case, they're not on the (heroic effort here people, we have to try to keep straight faces) "no finer dogfighter" FT-8 Starguard.

 

The real laser cannon travesty is that you can't cycle fire mode on quads through single, paired and quad. They're stuck on paired.

 

How are we supposed to blow away unshielded scouts with a single trigger pull if we don't have quad linked fire?

Paired fire just doesn't give you enough oommph. The other problem is that spray and pray with paired sucks too much energy, we need unlinked single fire for that.

I dunno why people bag on the SG. I wrecked faces in that thing. -bp

I dunno why people bag on the SG. I wrecked faces in that thing. -bp

Probably because it's the in thing to do, and because the language describing it is over the top (though I never hear people doing the same about the ugly Cartel Market ships...). But yeah, it's been in to hate on Strikes, even well after Scouts are much closer on parity with them. They still have an edge, of course, but I do quite well in mine. Scouts are fun, but you do notice how fragile they are when they do take hits.

I dunno why people bag on the SG. I wrecked faces in that thing. -bp

The component choices available on the Starguard are not what you'd call ideal for dogfighting, unless you're so drunk that you can't remember what ideal means anymore.

It's not a bad ship, but it's a mediocre dogfighter at best, unless you're comparing to ships like gunships and bombers that really shouldn't be trying to dogfight at all.

Despite the fact that I've been neglecting my FT-8 to take my Pike and contest sats (because HLCs, P-torps, and Concussions are the perfect loadout for weaving dogfights around a sat, if you want a real challenge) the Starguard does remain my favorite ship.

Doesn't change the fact that the flavor text has at best a very loose correlation to what the ship is actually like to fly.

Part of what makes it fun, at least for me, is that you have to fly it really well to compete in a dogfight and I find the maneuvering more fun than pressing offensive cooldowns and watching things explode. That's me enjoying the challenge of overcoming the fact that there are definitely much finer dogfighting ships in GSF. So I tend to snicker a bit whenever I read the description. The same way I would if I saw an ad calling a Honda Civic a, "world class sports car."

But getting back to this thread ... it's just proposing what I think would happen if LLC's were substantially buffed. Could be a combination of tracking penalty, rate of fire, crit chance, accuracy, piecing, etc. Clearly there is a reason no one ever uses LLC's if they have another viable choice. What would happen if that were no longer true, and what would be required to make that the case?

If LLCs were buffed in some way to be an even choice with BLCs, then they would be too powerful almost by definition. And since a huge part of BLC's power is from its low ROF (which gives it a high effective DPS), LLCs would have to be buffed to a point where the statistical imbalance vs. other lasers was really really obvious.

If LLCs were buffed in some way to be an even choice with BLCs, then they would be too powerful almost by definition. And since a huge part of BLC's power is from its low ROF (which gives it a high effective DPS), LLCs would have to be buffed to a point where the statistical imbalance vs. other lasers was really really obvious.

Right. But what I'm saying is that it is extremely safe to buff LLC's. Even if you end up making them overpowered. At least then 9 ships would have the best short-range cannon, instead of just 3. By no means would it result in a perfect meta, but I think it'd at least be a more interesting one.

And if buffing them to be superior to BLC's pushes LLC's to the point where they break the game too far (everyone three-shotting everyone), then maybe you don't have to go quite that far. Maybe BLC's still would be the better choice for the 3 ships that have them. But either way, LLC's are a pretty safe component to buff, as long as you don't go hyperbolic.

At worst, T1 Strikes and T2 Gunships are pushed further into mediocrity. And I think the T3 Gunship will be okay either way. Everyone else gets a buff.

Right. But what I'm saying is that it is extremely safe to buff LLC's. Even if you end up making them overpowered. At least then 9 ships would have the best short-range cannon, instead of just 3. By no means would it result in a perfect meta, but I think it'd at least be a more interesting one.

No way. That would lower TTK across the board, because a lot of people fly ships without BLC. TTK is already really really low for a lot of ships.

No way. That would lower TTK across the board, because a lot of people fly ships without BLC. TTK is already really really low for a lot of ships.

I don't see anyone but Gunships and TT/BO Scouts having a short TTK.

Even a Strike, in an optimum situation where it has a mid-range target dead-to-rights with Quads or HLC's, gives the target ample time to evade once it starts shooting/locking.

And at close range, Strikes have much longer TTK because they can't keep a target in their sights long enough to do sustained damage--in my experience the one exception to that is the T1 Strike Running Ions/Clusters, since he can effectively do shield and hull damage at the same time (Ions take down shields while Clusters lock on).

If 9 ships had powerful LLC's, close-range TTK would be largely equalized (or at least much closer to it). Range weapons like Quads or HLC's would still have their place because of their superior range.

That's not to say I think your idea of removing Armor Piercing from BLC's is a bad one. I do think that would shake up the meta quite a bit, causing more people to run DR builds. But I don't think it would cause anyone to start using LLC's though. T1 and T2 Strikes would use HLC's for the Armor Piercing (which would be even more vital), as would the three Bombers. T1 and T3 Scouts would be unchanged, as would T2 Gunships and T3 Strikes.

T2 Scouts and T1 and T3 Gunships would have a more interesting choice than they do now, yes. Depends mostly on Secondary Weapon choice I think. Someone running Sabotage Probe or Interdiction Missile would likely run LLC's for the increased DPS on an easy-to-hit target. Anyone else would still opt for BLC's due to the rate of fire advantage. I still think BLC Scouts would dominate, even if BO/TT got nerfed too.

That's why I personally think that, even if there are changes to BLC/BO/TT, LLC's could still use a buff to make them a competitive choice across every fighter where they are offered. I want to see a Quell that opts to take LLC's over HLC's someday.

I don't see anyone but Gunships and TT/BO Scouts having a short TTK.

Railguns have the lowest dps. While it's true that a player can get surprised by a nice railgun shot, he could also have avoided that by being more situationally aware- in fact, the bottom barrel dps of railguns becomes even lower when you count that a gunship you are aware of may not be positioned for his snipes.

Meanwhile, TT/BO scouts can kill in less than a second, something no gunship could ever dream of.

Even a Strike, in an optimum situation where it has a mid-range target dead-to-rights with Quads or HLC's, gives the target ample time to evade once it starts shooting/locking.

This one is a bigger deal- the strike fighter makes all kinds of noise. You start shooting, your quacking lasers start sputtering for 400 every once in awhile, and a giant red bar appears on their screen and screams at them. You'd have to be asleep to miss that you were under attack. Almost all the things players complain about- to the extent that you might consider a railgun to be high dps- are because the UI doesn't give you some kind of screaming warning like it does for strikes.

If 9 ships had powerful LLC's, close-range TTK would be largely equalized (or at least much closer to it).

Actually, no. Many ships have powerful melee weapons and can't do much with them at all. Super powered LLCs would make close range combats almost instantly fatal to the less maneuverable ship. Near a gunship? It's dead. Everyone is quads and pods, but without the restrictions of that build. Bombers die without charged plating instantly, but can't bring their OWN light lasers to bear, just as they cannot on live.

It just becomes more damned battle scout crap.

Who has light lasers?

Scouts do, and they use them.

The Pike does, and he doesn't. Making them powerful enough for him to use them generally means that the scouts would be amazing.

The bombers do, and they don't. They can help peel things off the node, but almost every bomber takes heavies, as they provide a threatening range for the bomber, who knows he can't win a turn fight. If LLC was so powerful that the bombers took it, again, the scouts!

The Type 1 Gunship does, and he takes BLCs over them. If you buff LLC enough that he has to take it, man, what the heck. The intended strength of a BLC goes along with what a type 1 gunship is- the LLC's top sustained damage isn't something a gunship is looking for at close range, as he has so few opportunities at targets. If you buff LLC so much that a Type 1 Gunship wants them, you've removed BLCs completely.

ALL THIS IDEA DOES IS BUFF SCOUTS

When I call you out on this, it's not because I think you only play a scout. I think you honestly don't know that most of the changes you are in favor of are exactly this- they will make the meta be all about "who plays their scout the best".

That's not to say I think your idea of removing Armor Piercing from BLC's is a bad one. I do think that would shake up the meta quite a bit, causing more people to run DR builds.

Charged Plating is way too binary as it is. It's either "I take 95% less damage from you (99% on a bomber)" or its "this build just lets you add 20% to your shield piercing and I take full damage from everything you do". Any changes to damage reduction would have to move in lockstep with a redesign of this component.

Also, while BLCs should never ever have had arp in the first place, that should definitely not change now.

That's why I personally think that, even if there are changes to BLC/BO/TT, LLC's could still use a buff to make them a competitive choice across every fighter where they are offered. I want to see a Quell that opts to take LLC's over HLC's someday.

...and in your world, you'd fly that quell into battle and get three shot by a scout that can escape your firing arc and has the same weapon, but the engine and cooldowns to actually make it work, leaving you to float slowly back into battle with double turning and hope that THIS time, THIS time, the scout won't be paying attention.

Screw all that. LLCs are fine. They are the highest dps gun in the game, and they see use. Rapids need a large buff (like 10% or more), BLC need a small nerf (I've gone on record as saying just upping the rate of fire by a bit would still keep them bursty but get rid of the silly), and LLC is where a gun should probably be- it has tradeoffs and strengths.

 

"A buff to LLC's would be a buff to Scouts"

 

I agree that Scouts would benefit from LLC buffs as much as anyone. But it couldn't be any worse than the current situation with BLC's, which Strikes cannot even attempt to use. Right now a T2 Scout can get in close to a slower Strike without any concern for its safety.

The unfortunate truth here is that BLC's should only ever have been on slower, more sluggish ships. On those ships, it is the perfect defensive weapon. A Scout with LLC's vs. a Strike with BLC would've been a pretty solid matchup. Instead we get the opposite.

I think we all know my preferred format by now...

The component choices available on the Starguard are not what you'd call ideal for dogfighting, unless you're so drunk that you can't remember what ideal means anymore.Look, just because I always fly with a glass of scotch at the ready doesn't mean... oh, wait, it does mean I'm always drunk flying that thing. Oh well. I hereby dub my flying style "Drunken Monkey".

 

It's not a bad ship, but it's a mediocre dogfighter at best, unless you're comparing to ships like gunships and bombers that really shouldn't be trying to dogfight at all. Now, when I say "dogfighting", I mean dogfighting in the Meatspace sense - specifically, the heydays of WWI and WWII, when tactics and piloting skill overcame superior tech (example: the Allied response to the A6M Zero, which I liken very much to the T1 and T2 scouts when it comes to maneuverability). By the by, the same tactics that worked against the Japanese (namely, quick high-speed devastating passes of the "boom and zoom" variety) tend to work pretty well against most scout pilots.

 

Despite the fact that I've been neglecting my FT-8 to take my Pike and contest sats (because HLCs, P-torps, and Concussions are the perfect loadout for weaving dogfights around a sat, if you want a real challenge) the Starguard does remain my favorite ship. The Pike very much reminds me of a P-40. You think maybe the devs looked toward WWII for the bulk of their inspiration?

 

Doesn't change the fact that the flavor text has at best a very loose correlation to what the ship is actually like to fly.Flavor text = advertising, far as I'm concerned. The StarGuard is an excellent, effective, capable dogfighter if flown within its operational parameters - that is, not trying to get into a Scout-style dogfight, but using its superior weapons range and available movement modifiers to make the cattlescout dogfight on YOUR terms. (Works on just about every Scout pilot not named Scrab or Mae'thon.)

 

Part of what makes it fun, at least for me, is that you have to fly it really well to compete in a dogfight and I find the maneuvering more fun than pressing offensive cooldowns and watching things explode. That's me enjoying the challenge of overcoming the fact that there are definitely much finer dogfighting ships in GSF. So I tend to snicker a bit whenever I read the description. The same way I would if I saw an ad calling a Honda Civic a, "world class sports car." With the right modifications and a solid driver, a Honda Civic can outclass quite a few vehicles. That's why they're so popular with the tuner set.

 

I enjoy our conversations. -bp

I agree that Scouts would benefit from LLC buffs as much as anyone.

I would definitely say more. The engagement range on a scout is already low, and they already have the tools to make that happens. A Pike doesn't, and it can double turn. A Quarrel doesn't, and it at least has single turn. A bomber DEFINITELY doesn't.

But it couldn't be any worse than the current situation with BLC's, which Strikes cannot even attempt to use.

Buffing LLC would make the game MUCH worse for strikes. That's what you're missing. Adding BLCs to strikes wouldn't make them suddenly better than scouts, though I would like to see the Starguard get BLCs and LLCs tbh.

Right now a T2 Scout can get in close to a slower Strike without any concern for its safety.

Ok, so lets go ahead and just flat out pretend we are trebling the damage of LLC. That's better than a damage overcharge.

Here's how it plays out:

You approach the Starguard. He doesn't have LLC. You win. Starguard is trashbinned.

You approach the Pike. As you get into LLC range, you pop disto. You hit him, he can't hit you. You win long before disto is over.

You approach the Clarion. As you get into LLC range, you pop disto. You hit him, he can't hit you. You win long before disto is over.

AND:

You approach ANYSTRIKE from behind. Like on live, you get a couple hits in. Unlike on live, this kills the strike. You win without even having to brave his frontal cone.

I like that you are homing in on one weapon to buff, because we all know that balance changes would involve multiple tweaks across many components (and the devs are unlikely to go changing everything, because that will upset a lot of ppl). But I'm telling you, it would make the meta ludicrous.

The unfortunate truth here is that BLC's should only ever have been on slower, more sluggish ships. On those ships, it is the perfect defensive weapon. A Scout with LLC's vs. a Strike with BLC would've been a pretty solid matchup. Instead we get the opposite.

I think BLCs should have been on bombers and gunships and that's it. Putting such a massive weapon on a scout is absurd. But obviously, they can't take that away now- the battle scout is the premiere bearer of the weapon, and plenty of people play just because they like the run and gun playstyle afforded (and yes, I agree it's not very Star Warsy).