Hey there all, just wanted comment on here real quick to address a very important issue that has to deal with something that has been on my mind for years. You see it's not just this mmo but ALL recent mmos in the last couple of years have taken to the disturbing trend of gimping melee severely while completely overpowering casters. Now I have a few theories as to why this is, but that's for a different topic

 

For now though I would like you to take note of the mechanics that are currently stacked against melee classes.

 

1.Boss Aoes:

 

SWTOR seems to have taken a page right out of other MMOs and decided that it would be a great idea to give bosses and mobs a TON of aoe dmg that destroys melee. The biggest problem with this is that a melee toon has to stop any and all attacks in order to vacate the aoe and not die. There is no such mechanic that stops ranged classes to that effect. No matter what, unless there is some giant map wide stun (which does not exist) they can keep on dpsing/healing with little to no incident, while melee is busy running around doing nothing except losing health rapidly. It would be the equivalent of a Boss firing off an aoe that only affected casters, doing 1k points of dmg every time they tried to attack/cast and silenced them as well. I have yet to see such a spell exist. Frankly I hope I never do because it would be complete overkill. So why then must melee suffer similar effects on an almost daily basis?

 

2.Little to no self healing:

 

Another disturbing trend is the belief that giving melee classes (especially tanks) a way to recover health during a fight would lead to complete unbalance. So in response most developers have given said classes extremely weak/situational healing abilities or nothing at all. Now there would be no problem with this line of thinking if melee classes had such phenomenal defenses or dps that enemies dies quickly enough so no real heals are required save for being outnumbered or chaining more too many mobs. But sadly such balance does not exist. Often times the most high damaging attacks COMPLETELY ignore melee's armor and shreds the poor defender to pieces. In essence it turns melee classes into an armorless attacker with no sustainable/reliable way to mitigate damage.

 

3.Very small mitigation chances/ "Heavy Armor, High AC"

 

Now just like healing, since melee classes are perceived to be just too tough with their higher armor (that in reality doesn't stop the most common types of high dmg) developers have given melee character a very small percentage/proc based mitigation mechanic. This would be a great idea if the dmg that came through was mitigated properly. But sadly, such is not the case. Even the damage that makes it through the procs, often times are high enough to put serious dents in a would be melee character's health. So what you are left with is a character with "Heavy armor / AC" that doesn't stop most incoming dmg, with poor proc based mitigation that barely chisels down any of the unmolested incoming DPS.

 

4. Long cool downs:

 

Basically refer to points 2-4. For the same reasons developers have made CDs for melee classes entirely too long. CD's that should be on a one minute timer are on three. I'm looking at you Saber Ward

 

5.CC, CC,CC / Physical location (proximity of attack):

 

In a game filled with heavy ranged DPS, it is hard enough just REACHING your objective as melee and applying constant dmg, so the thing I find most infuriating is the constant slows and stuns. They are completely unnecessary and I would go as far to say that melee classes should be all but immune to them, except for the odd stun or two. The reason being is that stun locking/perma slowing melee is DOUBLE PUNISHMENT. Unlike ranged characters, melee has to actually get to its target and CONTINUE to stay on their target within a very short distance in order to do any kind of dmg. So they already start off with a major disadvantage. Making it so atrociously easy to just get out of a melee characters range or stop them cold while continuing to DPS them with high dmg. This inexcusable and bad game design, has been copied from mmo to mmo. Gap closers loose all their worth, when someone can just stun/kite you right after you use it, especially in a pvp environment.

 

Now take a look at everything I listed above. Ranged classes face no such obstacles. In most cases ranged classes have enough healing, dmg, cc, and mitigation to exotic dmg that their realistic armor class is MUCH higher than that of melee classes. Their perceived weakness of "light armor / light AC" is easily overcome with a few talents and base powers, creating dominating force with very few weaknesses and little risk vs. gain. I'd like to thank you all very much for taking the time to read this post, and wish you wonderful day.

 

-Drega

Edited February 19, 2012 by Dregas

I agree that melee does seem to get the short end...but most games are like this. Not sure of any recent mmorpgs that didnt give melee a cleave to deal with that range doesnt need to deal with (although thats a simple matter of positioning)

 

The most commonly run HM flashpoint provides a fair attack...being that the Jedi sucks in all the players before making them flee a slow charging one shot aoe, while all the players are slowed.

 

It wouldnt be such a big deal if more bosses had perhaps various types of artillery volleys or aoe that would be targeted to distant players.

 

I agree with a lot of the things stated about melee suffering from designed to be fair mechanics that range classes seem to skirt, but as far as the endgame pve goes...melee is always harder in terms of dealing with more positioning and boss aoe...its always like that.

 

As far as pvp balancing, i would love to see an extremely short duration stun used in melee range, having smash briefly stuff everyone, for instance, would make a world of diffrence. Perhaps give the juggy a shield proc for 100% shield chance and marauder an added effect on cloak of pain that would make them immune to CC. Something small like that would go a long way. Personally i wish melee got some type of "force wave" a cone aoe thant knocked down everyone in front of them...which seems logical given im a damn sith.

 

As a marauder i feel im best played in pvp hanging in the back looking for oppertune moments to charge a stray player or pick off a fleeing half dead player...i feel like a melee sniper, since charging into the pack is...nothing but aoe mayhem and cc after cc. I know we get the short end on aoe (not that ours when specced right isnt deadly) being that we cant aoe from a safe location and a lot of time it just turns into a death from above artillery fight.

 

Truth told id rather them make a few of the other classes a bit more complex to faceroll with instead of making marauder easier.

Add to that the fact that even when you do get into melee range, the ranged classes are still hitting you harder than you're hitting them.

 

Feels to me like melee are more shafted in this game than in most.

With no combat logs, it's hard to say for sure who's getting shafted. I would tend to agree that it's melees, but the root cause of why that is will remain ambiguous until we know the actual numbers. From a "butt dyno" perspective, I don't "feel" like a stronger DPS than a Sniper or Sorc, but part of that is due to the difference between front-loaded burst damage and more sustained DPS.

 

That said, in the early stages of any MMO endgame, there tends to be a bias towards ranged DPS regardless of which class ultimately min/maxes the best. If the ranged DPS classes are strongest in addition to being ranged, it tends to get balanced over time.

 

I would agree that some tweaking is in order to ensure that the most effective (not to be confused with easiest!) tactic is NOT to stack all ranged classes.

 

I kind of get BioWare's intention behind making sure the DPS specs of all classes are created more or less equal, but the flipside to that is ensuring that those with an inherent disadvantage (melees, DPS-only classes with starkly limited utility) have some counterbalance to keep them on even footing.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Omophorus

Tank you guys for the responses. Vember you make a very good point. If I as a melee class have so much trouble getting to you through all your ranged cc, there is no absolutely no excuse for you to put out more dmg than I do in melee range. Especially when you can kite me in the middle of an attack sequence.

Add to that the fact that even when you do get into melee range, the ranged classes are still hitting you harder than you're hitting them.

 

Feels to me like melee are more shafted in this game than in most.

Not sure about getting hit harder, but its clear that when ranged attacks melee at ranged, only ranged can really dps you. Melee can't dps them.

 

When melee get in in melee range of a ranged dps, both classes can still dps each other, esp with all the autofacing in the game, and no lockout of school when interrupting.

 

Even WoW allowed melee to run through a ranged player to interrupt him. Ranged shouldn't be fighting in melee range and should get interrupted that way. Ranged argue that it shouldn't allow it, but its the same as melee getting attacked at ranged. The melee can't do anything.

Exactly right! Look if you want to give ranged classes an absurd of amount of control vs melee characters, fine. BUT if somehow that melee character makes it to you, you should be completely shut down from casting as long as he is connecting. Not some silly push back that is easily gotten around.

I would just be happy for a CC like the other classes. I have skipped quests because I get to a point and Bioware puts 2 strongs, or 2 strong healers and then its impossible to get past.

Add to that the fact that even when you do get into melee range, the ranged classes are still hitting you harder than you're hitting them.

 

Feels to me like melee are more shafted in this game than in most.

 

This is false. Up your game brotha, because I know no sorc or merc who is not on the run when I get in their face.

Well an idea that might help the boss aoe is to have his AoE hit everyone of a small amount of damage, or have to LOS it around pillars. That way everyone has to stop DPS for a few seconds.

 

I realise that ranged would stand next to a pillar (sorry i suck at spelling) but who is to say the tank cant tank next to one too so that you can DPS next to one as well.

A lot of this is true. Bioware, like many mmo developers before them, made melee a liability. In PvP they're outclassed in both CC and utility while lacking the ability to hit people from 30 yards away in safety. In PvE raid bosses have mechanics that ONLY effect melee. The fabricator droid for example will put bombs on melee and if someone in the pile doesn't run out then all of them lost half their health. Ranged just spread out. I wouldn't mind so much if it was just that melee had to watch out for more stuff on the ground but a lot of raid damage in this game is AoE that's targeted on someone.

BS on alot of this single point of view opinion. I am a melee hybrid and I can tell you right now that if a DPS tank gets on you for 3 secs your toast. You hit like TRUCKS, especially Marauders...arguably the most OP class in the game atm.

 

OP wants tanks to be immune to CC? cmon...

 

* but I will say I agree with one thing. Damage mitigation for the so called Heavy Armor melee or melee hybrids tank classes is lacking.. no nonexistant is a better term.

 

All damage types needs to be mitigated.. whats so hard about that? IA's and scoundrels hit like TRUCKS on Heavy Armor and I mean HARD. seems kinda silly

I have to agree with the idea behind this thread. I love melee in this game, but the instant you run into CC... You're useless.

 

I don't think melee should be immune to CC. However, I do think that Jedi Knights / Sith Warriors should get a slight amount of RESISTANCE to CC. Maybe 33%? Maybe 25%? I dunno. But I don't think there's much argument against that CC STOPS melee while it only SLOWS ranged classes.

 

I also have to agree that bosses in PvE (both quests and flashpoints) do seem to be slightly biased against melee - but I disagree on the extent. I've seen several bosses in flashpoints have attacks that only target people at range. I simply think that the focus on AoE abilities on the bosses should be toned down a bit. And only a bit.

 

Otherwise, I love my Jedi Guardian, and can't really see myself playing any non-healer ranged classes. Nothing wrong with 'em, just not my playstyle.

I agree with points 2 and 3. Not so much the snares, as we have ways to get around them. Such as our jump-to-targets and snare breaks. If anything, make the snare break CD a little shorter.

Also agree that melee should get a damage buff to compensate for the fact that our constant damage range is 26 meters shorter than range, yet they hit just as hard as we do if not harder.

 

Being immune to CC doesn't make sense though, and I too agree that CC breakers should have a shorter base cooldown.

It feels like melee classes DID get a minor damage boost recently. Personally, that's all I'd ask for.

 

the logic of which classes have the most CCs (mostly range classes) seemed like good intentions - bad execution...

 

I think the design philosophy was "melee classes will KILL you so here's some CC abilities to keep them off you" but that was implemented with "melee classes hit like wet noodles so why is anyone even worried about them?"

 

so yeah, IMO just boost the damage from melee and everyone is happy.

 

if you want to get super technical, maybe give melee some kind of armor-ignoring ability in PvP...

For a while some melee DID have armor pen abilities.. and DID hit a bit harder than ranged.. albeit the ranged were hitting about just as hard and still have sweet burst... but that wasn't working as intended so they nerf batted those melee, and allowed the ranged burst to remain *cough* tracer spam. A lot of the problem is just that some classes possess far too much utility in pvp. Entertain me for a moment and consider the following: Assassins possess the ability to use an AOE knockback, a grip to draw opponents in, a force speed tech that is just bad *** in hutball or any oh **** situation. That's a melee example, I know, next we have the BH... if you're a tank you get a grapple, which bugs out 70% of the time, as I know from experience, but you can still roll a massive rocket punch, rails shot bomb combo as pyro for over 10k in 5 seconds. Merc tracer spam is rough because, despite having to apply stacks first (as the argument goes) not every situation provides a LoS.. nor does LoS help you reach your target, unload is the equiv to masterstrike/ravage but is ranged.. assuming you do storm into the merc to at least defend yourself, you will be knocked back immediately and opened up on again with tracer missile, while the game mechanics allow the merc to grab a coffee from the kitchen, as his character rotates itself in your direction; ultimately murdering the melee charging in for the second time with no REAL skill involved.

 

I particularly enjoy the l2p your class threads.. and I love little more murdering the people that ask me if im enjoying my nerf (operative) There are ways to play melee as effectively as ranged, without a doubt, BUT doing so does require much more "skill" than spamming 1 to 3 moves as you faceroll lawl on the keyboard. Before being ragged on and told to try the classes before I whine, I'll let you know that I have! Sure I could keep playing the easier classes, but I'm so tired of seeing 80% of my community playing BH/Trooper or Sorc, my raid groups are particularly tired of everyone being pretty much the same two classes. In truth, we only have operatives such as myself, or mara/sent for the buffs, clearing NM modes in pve content never requires the 30 rage stack raid buffs from mara, an operaitves heals or melee burst, it's just nice to have all the standard buffs, otherwise being a melee severely gimps the standard raid strats for burning a boss down before the enrage timer. HM/NM rankor strats particularly suffer from too many IF ANY melee in the raid.

 

Performing the same work as ANY ranged class allllways requires more work. More attention paid to debuffs on targets, anywhere up to 6 weaker hitting moves spread out over a longer duration to equal the 2 to 4 of a BH. I mean cmon guys.. the autoshot of a BH with cylinder procs does more damage than most melee skills when they dont crit.. and when the crit does land.. the skill might hit for 500 more damage and has a CD on its use; not ALL skills are weaker than auto shot from a BH, but a lot of them are ^^. Come on trolls do your worst, I'm waiting at the other end of the bridge.

Edited February 17, 2012 by VeliusVerdyne

I'd like to contribute myself by stating the following.

I consider myself an average player with good enough insight in several different situations, in PvE and PvP. My gear is decent and I always try to play it smart rather than just charging in with a giant bulls eye over my head.

 

I spent the most part of the day PvP'ing and, as always, the majority of the enemy was ranged (I'm playing Sith Marauder).

I can only but AGREE with EVERYTHING that has been said. I learnt this first hand today, fighting off a 7 Jedi Consular team, never having a chance in the first place.

 

But what really caught my eye today, was that my damage was incredibly low, hybrids just standing there outhealing my damage, not being able to break a shield without losing 50% of my health pool, the list goes on and on... Getting knocked back every single time you get BACK to the person after being knocked back a first time.. Constantly being CC'ed.

You can't deny that these are reasons to get frustrated, knowing there is no way around it.

 

Argueably, you could say I should L2P, but you won't get the least of my attention by saying dumb stuff like that. The difference between ranged and melee is opportunities. They have lots, we have few and when we do use them, we're back at square one; you know what I'm talking about. Global cooldowns are a joke for melee and the medium armor issue is laughable, and most likely just made that way just to take the piss with Marauders, seeing as how many disadvantages there are to being a melee class.

 

I don't want to start a flame war here, but I can't help myself so I will just say it.

 

To everyone playing a melee class, props, keep at it and get better to the point there is no more getting better. Why? Because... ranged classes require less than half the skill we need to actually pull some things off. And being a good melee gives so much more satisfaction than just standing at 1 spot, spamming 3 abilities max, knocking people back whenever they get close, and then running away or finishing the job with 1 finger up their nose.

 

This isn't a QQ post, this is reality, which is happening right now in warzones. A subjective point of view of the current state of balance between different classes. The balance is way off, and this is unacceptable for those people who actually give a **** about melee classes and not just reroll a ranged just to get the better half of this game.

 

1 last thing; this situation isn't even close to being as bad as frost mages in WoW. Not..even..close..

I usually play a caster in most games but a jugg in this, and I agree that melee are having a rather tough time in SWTOR

This is false. Up your game brotha, because I know no sorc or merc who is not on the run when I get in their face.

 

But why not start running when their best form of CC is just to be at range from you.

Add to that the fact that even when you do get into melee range, the ranged classes are still hitting you harder than you're hitting them.

 

Feels to me like melee are more shafted in this game than in most.

 

Its a joke, as a marauder in the mid 40ies you have to interrupt the range dmg to survive and to kill someone i.e. commander/BH.

 

This gets totally out of hands....I met Commander in pvp which are doing 5000 dmg with just two attacks from RANGE, wheras you have yourself around 12k hp only and never doint such a high dmg in this short time except you are an operative.

Edited February 18, 2012 by BobaFurz

Its a joke, as a marauder in the mid 40ies you have to interrupt the range dmg to survive and to kill someone i.e. commander/BH.

 

This gets totally out of hands....I met Commander in pvp which are doing 5000 dmg with just two attacks from RANGE, wheras you have yourself around 12k hp only and never doint such a high dmg in this short time except you are an operative.

 

Marauders are pretty terrible before they get to 50 and get some gear. It will get better, trust me, and although it may seem like it's just "unbalanced", the fact is, you probably aren't utilizing your class to it's fullest. I know I certainly wasn't until I had been 50 for some time. Making use of EVERY single defense cooldown every time it's up, interrupting everything you can, utilizing force camo, etc. What blows is that you have to use so many abilities just to counteract someone who is, say, spamming tracer missile and having it hit for 5k on crits, on a 1.5 second cast.

 

My only advice is, go annihilation spec, learn it, love it, and make sure you are utilizing every ability in the book. You are meant to use Undying Rage as a last resort in just about every fight (pvp). You are meant to use your cloak, pretty much every fight. And finally, just realize that it will get better at 50 with gear. Melee always tend to be more gear dependant, marauders are no exception.

I guess it's hard to balance PvE as well as PvP. Probably the focus lies on PvE balance at the moment.

 

I'd love to see ranged classes putting out less damage, if they fight in melee range. That would greatly improve balance in PvP. They are ranged, so they should have to fight that way. It should not be for a melee class to lose in a melee fight against a ranged class, it's that simple.

 

Another possible solution would be to add a short stun to the interrupt of melee classes. Say 1,5 sec stun, interrupt only possible to cast for channeled spells. Or lower that cooldown on the interrupt.

 

It is only logical, that melee classes suffer from their limited range and should be compensated for it somehow.

the logic of which classes have the most CCs (mostly range classes) seemed like good intentions - bad execution...

 

I think the design philosophy was "melee classes will KILL you so here's some CC abilities to keep them off you" but that was implemented with "melee classes hit like wet noodles so why is anyone even worried about them?"

 

Hey all thanks for posting! Haven't been back to this topic in a couple days and was happy to see so many replies. One thing I would like to point out follows from the post above. I noticed that some were against my asking for melee to practically immune to cc if not very resistant to it. The reason I made such a statement is pretty much summed up in Tekaru's quote.

 

I could understand if once a melee character got up to you and hit you three times you died...then massive cc would be appropriate. And I would have no complaints. However, as things are right now, we simply do not have the dmg needed to take down a target within just a couple of hits before another cc is applied and ranged can run off heal/reset the fight/get more distance/etc.

 

That right there is a problem. If a ranged class's combined self buffing, CC, and healing all come together and create a high enough true armor class that melee cannot down within a very short amount of time while engaged, then there is no need for Massive CC.

 

Simply because it is overcompensation for a threat that is mediocre at best. Such overcompensation really hurts melee classes, Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights especially.

 

It's just a matter of balancing the level of melee classes' CC immunity, with the actual threat they provide. And not giving range a blanket amount of coverage that completely overcompensates for said melee.

 

Now I know a lot of people might jump on this and say, "What?! You want ranged classes to just be a free kill as soon as you touch them?!"

 

To that i would say, absolutely not. I actually enjoy the chase when it's balanced. But when I get rooted and blown up with no chance to compete, it rubs me the wrong way. Hence why what i am asking for is a balance. I don't expect to kill you within three hits when i get up to you. But at the same time, you shouldn't expect to make me completely immobile and useless within three button presses. Something that seems to be widely accepted as "working as intended" for ranged classes in MMOs. It's time to make a change.

^ exactly.

 

I'm also not asking to kill a player in 2-3 hits. maybe 5.

 

but it's pretty sad when they can literally IGNORE me as I hit them with everything I have. I should get CC'ed because they FEAR me. not to just make me an easy kill. at the worst, I should at least be threatening enough to make people quit what they are doing and deal with me.