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Dread Guard nerf - Catering to the Casual


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except that 16m content is easymode joketown. 8m ftw.

 

Also tough luck in tfb tonight airwolfe. Saw you guys wiping on DG for over 3 hours made me feel sad for you guys. I guess even with the nerf the DG are able to block all but the most hardcore guilds

 

No, this is far from true. 16 man on some of these fights are ridiculous because of over tuning. Withering Horror, DG, Keph, TfB, Titan 6, and Trasher are all much harder in 16 man mode compared to 8 man mode. That is six bosses out of twelve in the two current ops that are more difficult in 16 man than 8. DPS check is lighter in 16 man mode, but mechanics hurt more, are buggy and tanks are always getting **** a metric ton of damage that range 75-125% more.

Edited by mastirkal
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People who have only done one mode claiming their mode is harder. Yawn.

 

Thanks for reminding me, forget the forums aren't usually a place for anything but rage and semen stained arguments. I digress Ansalem, it's not good to argue over it much, right or wrong.

Edited by mastirkal
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No, 16>8 in challenge and difficulty. Lighter DPS check, harder tanking and healing. Much more emphasis on group coordination, group availability, raid damage and pride. I say pride because there is LITERALLY NO REASON TO DO 16 MAN OVER 8. We don't get anything more other than the pride from killing something on the hardest difficulty setting.

 

8>16 in popularity and availability. Hard as **** DPS check, Light tanking and healing. Much more emphasis on group composition and synergy. I like 8 man because its about the individual players performance over the group performance so everyone is taking much more responsibility upon themselves. If it was easy to get 16 individuals on the same page as it is in 8 man. 16 man content would be widely more popular.

 

That's like saying wrestling a bear is more difficult than knife fighting a shark. As I recall, pre nerf 8man NiM DG had a seriously intense tanking, healing and DPS check. The 20sec extention(it seemed to be 20sec, not the 30sec Bioware claimed based on our kill video timing) only made the fight more realistically tuned and made it reasonably repeatable without having to spend 10 hours each week to get that perfect pull. If anything, heal load was higher than in 16man because there are only 2 players, if one makes energy mistakes then the issue compounds much farther because there aren't 3 or 4 other healers to hold up the lost weight until recovery is made. 16man is not harder, it presents a different set of obstacles to overcome. Coordination is about it, there are a myriad of different strats that can be employed based on the fact you have 8 more players in the instance, more abilities to use and abuse. Severity Gaming's NiM Thrash kill is the embodiment of this, there's no way you can get away with ignoring the multi-sniper packs in 8man and you are forced to confront and defeat them. If you want to make this argument internet simple here it is: 8man is about precision, 16man is about coordination.

 

I don't have the patience, the raid time, or most importantly the desire to attempt to down bosses in a group with 8 more players who all have the innate human ability to durp and wipe the raid. I'd rather be required to be precise to a pinhead with my actions than be sloppier and hope to god that the 15 other morons-in-hiding I'm raiding with don't make a fight ending mistake. That doesn't mean 16man is harder, it most certainly isn't if the fight is tuned properly. It just means you have a different obstacle to overcome to kill the boss. I got tired of 16man NiM Tanks where 1 person consistently wiped the raid for 2 hours on the same mechanic. Both versions of the fight were difficult, one was overtuned. That doesn't mean 16man is harder, just like 8man NiM DG wasn't any harder. It was improperly tuned because Bioware is lazy with their number crunching. If you think 16man is more difficult, explain HM TC and HM S/V. Clownshow raids in 16man, very stringent checks in 8man. Doesn't mean the fight was any harder, just that there were not more taxing 16man mechanics to make up for the lower DPS checks. Both modes of the fight are on the same difficulty, sometimes the fights are just tuned differently.

Edited by countpopeula
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No-one has cleared both 16M NiM and 8M NiM for either current instance, so it's all just hearsay and assumptions.

 

P.S. using HM TC/SV to somehow prove 8m is harder is as silly as using NiM Tanks/EC Kephess as proof 16m is harder. Past tiers are irrelevant.

Edited by namesaretough
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No-one has cleared both 16M NiM and 8M NiM for either current instance, so it's all just hearsay and assumptions.

 

P.S. using HM TC/SV to somehow prove 8m is harder is as silly as using NiM Tanks/EC Kephess as proof 16m is harder. Past tiers are irrelevant.

 

I believe some of your boys in SG did do a full clear 16m nmm tfb and also a 4/5 8m (they skikpped DG). . I tend to tease hippo whenever he logs in his imp alt which is a guild friend:. He gets pretty loud when he logs in to me saying '8m >16m easymode':p

Edited by Ansalem
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No, this is far from true. 16 man on some of these fights are ridiculous because of over tuning. Withering Horror, DG, Keph, TfB, Titan 6, and Trasher are all much harder in 16 man mode compared to 8 man mode. That is six bosses out of twelve in the two current ops that are more difficult in 16 man than 8. DPS check is lighter in 16 man mode, but mechanics hurt more, are buggy and tanks are always getting **** a metric ton of damage that range 75-125% more.

 

have you ever considered you guys are using the wrong setups in 16m? based on what I've seen it seems like 16m would benefit more from using a 3 tank setup for some of the fights. You certainly dont need the extra dpser in 16m as the dps req is extremely light. For fights where you don't need 3 tanks you could just have tank respec to dps. Honestly I look at the thrasher fight in 16m and I just wanna facepalm watching guilds skip the triple sniper nest. That can be defeated if you just coordinate better and use a 3rd tank. The snipers arent doing anymore dmg in 16m than they do in 8m it appears. I understand the dmg is high thats how its intended. Gotta suck it up like hte poor healers in 8m do.

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I believe some of your boys in SG did do a full clear 16m nmm tfb and also a 4/5 8m (they skikpped DG). . I tend to tease hippo whenever he logs in his imp alt which is a guild friend:. He gets pretty loud when he logs in to me saying '8m >16m easymode':p

 

Ah, as far as I knew we'd only done TWH and TFB on NiM (random alts and an incomplete 16m lockout). I could have missed it though.

 

(For what it's worth 8m The Terror is easier)

Edited by namesaretough
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Ah, as far as I knew we'd only done TWH and TFB on NiM (random alts and an incomplete 16m lockout). I could have missed it though.

 

(For what it's worth 8m The Terror is easier)

 

heh after seeing your first kill video and comparing I seriously doubt that. 3 deaths before tantrum, 2 deaths during tantrum, and still not hitting enrage? Can't get away with that sloppy play in 8m. Precision > coordination

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No, this is far from true. 16 man on some of these fights are ridiculous because of over tuning. Withering Horror, DG, Keph, TfB, Titan 6, and Trasher are all much harder in 16 man mode compared to 8 man mode. That is six bosses out of twelve in the two current ops that are more difficult in 16 man than 8. DPS check is lighter in 16 man mode, but mechanics hurt more, are buggy and tanks are always getting **** a metric ton of damage that range 75-125% more.

 

Actually we found WH no different in difficulty, and believe I heard Severity gaming 15 manned it so I don't understand how thats harder. TFB wasn't any harder either. Perhaps some better min maxing, and refining your skills is all you need. I have honestly NEVER seen an enrage timer on any 16 man boss, then again we normally go in there a little better geared then our we do on our 9 mans.

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heh after seeing your first kill video and comparing I seriously doubt that. 3 deaths before tantrum, 2 deaths during tantrum, and still not hitting enrage? Can't get away with that sloppy play in 8m. Precision > coordination

 

That's the problem with judging off kill videos. The boss enrage timer was tighter on 8m, that's true. The healing was significantly harder on 16m throughout, though, and the tentacle enrages on the first phase were significantly harder to beat on 16m. Ultimately the second phase felt the same in both, the first was far more challenging in 16, and the final burn wasn't particularly difficult even with the boss enraged in 8man, although it was slightly more challenging than the 16m (un-enraged) version. Although, if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong even though I've actually done both there's no point in even talking about it.

Edited by namesaretough
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That's the problem with judging off kill videos. The boss enrage timer was tighter on 8m, that's true. The healing was significantly harder on 16m throughout, though, and the tentacle enrages on the first phase were significantly harder to beat on 16m. Ultimately the second phase felt the same in both, the first was far more challenging in 16, and the final burn wasn't particularly difficult even with the boss enraged in 8man, although it was slightly more challenging than the 16m (un-enraged) version. Although, if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong even though I've actually done both there's no point in even talking about it.

 

the tent enrage in phase 1 have the same timer from video comparisons. your tanks were only being hit for 1k-2k more hps by the tents but you have 2 more healers to compensate for that. P2 in 16m is signficantly easier from the looks of it especially since 3 people died during it and you were still able to complete it beating the enrage. I'm saying 8m is more difficult because it requires more precision, higher dps check, and there is no room for error. Obviously in 16m you can get away with multiple deaths and still leave it on cruise control to finish.

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No-one has cleared both 16M NiM and 8M NiM for either current instance, so it's all just hearsay and assumptions.

 

P.S. using HM TC/SV to somehow prove 8m is harder is as silly as using NiM Tanks/EC Kephess as proof 16m is harder. Past tiers are irrelevant.

 

You missed the point of those references entirely. I was stating that certain fights are not tuned properly for the raid size. Neither 16man or 8man is "harder" than the other setting, they're just different entities.

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the tent enrage in phase 1 have the same timer from video comparisons.
Yes, and the 16m tent have 1mil hp, while the 8m have 360k. 2.5x dps need to burn down ~2.8x the HP.

 

your tanks were only being hit for 1k-2k more hps by the tents but you have 2 more healers to compensate for that.
I don't know the exact DTPS comparison, I'm just going off the healers and tanks laughing during the attempt about how little damage was going out in 8m, even with a substitute tank who had less gear than our normal tank.

 

P2 in 16m is signficantly easier from the looks of it especially since 3 people died during it and you were still able to complete it beating the enrage.
The mechanics of phase 2 are the same in 8 and 16. The only difference is how long you have before enrage. If you want to bunch the enrage timer in with the rest of phase 2, yes, p2 is more difficult on 8m. Ultimately though, it only took 2 or 3 tries to get p2 down in each mode. Phase 1 on 16m was a much bigger hurdle than P2 on 8m, that's what I'm judging the relative difficulty by.
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Yes, and the 16m tent have 1mil hp, while the 8m have 360k. 2.5x dps need to burn down ~2.8x the HP.

 

I don't know the exact DTPS comparison, I'm just going off the healers and tanks laughing during the attempt about how little damage was going out in 8m, even with a substitute tank who had less gear than our normal tank.

 

The mechanics of phase 2 are the same in 8 and 16. The only difference is how long you have before enrage. If you want to bunch the enrage timer in with the rest of phase 2, yes, p2 is more difficult on 8m. Ultimately though, it only took 2 or 3 tries to get p2 down in each mode. Phase 1 on 16m was a much bigger hurdle than P2 on 8m, that's what I'm judging the relative difficulty by.

 

You also forget that you have 4 healers that can assist with dmg. In 8m we usually have our healers doing dps here and there as needed. P2 healing though in 8m I will agree is a joke. Also in p1 only people taking dmg should be the tanks and the people standing out when they get hit by an initial puddle. Unless you are having dps pick up lightning to crank more dmg in which case they can call for the cleanse when they are taking too much dmg. Also its nice having 8 people on your raid team that can execute 30% and under. I noticed once you got the tent to 30% it just evaporated. Each mode has its own difficulties to overcome but 8m definitely requires more precision and less room for error.

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You also forget that you have 4 healers that can assist with dmg. In 8m we usually have our healers doing dps here and there as needed. P2 healing though in 8m I will agree is a joke. Also in p1 only people taking dmg should be the tanks and the people standing out when they get hit by an initial puddle. Unless you are having dps pick up lightning to crank more dmg in which case they can call for the cleanse when they are taking too much dmg. Also its nice having 8 people on your raid team that can execute 30% and under. I noticed once you got the tent to 30% it just evaporated. Each mode has its own difficulties to overcome but 8m definitely requires more precision and less room for error.

 

Look, I'm not trying to get into some huge thing here where we break down exactly how much dps each raid member has to do and how much healers have to contribute to whatever. Our 8 people who killed both thought that 16m was harder than 8m. That's all.

Edited by namesaretough
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Back on the topic of 8 and 16:

 

In 8-man i've done

WH, DG (pre-nerfs), Op9, KU, TFB, ~twice(?)

 

In 16-man i've done

WH, DG (post nerf), Op9, KU, once

 

Red = in my opinion is the harder version of the boss. Op9 adds hit harder and can quickly whittle down a tank. Black obtuse can bring the entire raid down to 1/4 hp. KU in 16-man, well the one time we did it radioactive barrage was acting weird >_>. He also hits like a truck. Conclusion: 16-m nim tfb is harder than 8-man nim tfb

 

in my experience.

 

Can't say much for DG because we did it post nerfs in 16..

Edited by paowee
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In the end, this is a game with a very poorly designed gearing system that comes inherent in the fact they cannot release content fast enough to keep up with the best raiders' attention spans without forcing arbitrary gearing time sinks with recycled content. NiM versions of Operations should not drop any new tier of gear, they should drop the same thing as the HM variant with the only reason to do it being pride and the title. Otherwise, you will end up with nerfs to fights that are fun and challenging to the better/best players and keep our attention. On the other side of the spectrum, you cannot keep the casual players and those who aren't top tier level satisfied if they can't stay geared in the current tier. The only way to do this is to release NiM at the same time as HM and make it for nothing but pride and alt gearing with other incentive such as mounts, pets, or bonus bosses available only in NiM. This method allows top tier players to enjoy difficult fights, casual players unable to perform can revisit it after the next Operation comes out. Edited by countpopeula
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Tuning the difficulty of an MMO..is about the least petty you can get when it comes to anything related to an MMO.

And that's what this thread is about.

You begin the thread by referring to a hardcore guild that is further along in progression than you as casual, point to a thread started by them, and blame them for a change to the encounter. If you wanted to display your disagreement with bioware you could have simply said you like challenges and competitive raiding and that you didn't feel a change was necessary. What I can't believe is that this thread still exists considering it is violating the forum rules with the original post.

Was the enrage timer change needed? yes, as even after the change there are many guilds that haven't been able to pass the encounter. Was the second change needed with the nerf to hps and dmg output? No, I don't think it was.

Good luck on DG I hope your guild can down it soon now that the changes are in. Good luck with terror I know you guys will eventually get it. Good luck with thrasher now that they fixed some things on the fight you guys should be able to get it down and catch up on progression

Edited by CommunityDroidEN
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Apparently you need to be reminded of the facts as you enjoy having personal vendettas. Chosen cleared DG in version 1, a feat in which we were one of three guilds to clear it in our mode pre-nerfs (note, readers, that this is not a boast, simply laying a fact as claims apparently are being made otherwise here).

 

The original post in this thread lays out the basic, order of events. Here they are even more plainly.

 

1) Content was released.

2) Content was declared impossible/unbeatable after a few hours on a thread.

 

3) Content was cleared a few days later. (I believe the first nerf was on 6/25, which means DiLiH, SuckaFish, Ambassadors, Reckoning, Fatality, Republic Gentlemen, HATRED.

So 7 guilds? Cleared it pre-nerfs on 8 man.)

 

4) Thread in #2 had 'a lot' of pages at this point, 50+?

5) Content was nerfed.

6) Content was nerfed again.

 

7) My conclusion: #2 contributed in direct causation to #4 and #5.

 

Some guilds enjoy a challenge and put in over 100 pulls to get the kill before the nerfs - it was fun.

 

Anything else you may speak of outside of these listed events, or focused on ad hominem in this thread is irrelevant and does not belong here. This thread is not about any individual guild. It's about the state of the game.

Thanks for not trolling further.

Edited by Airwolfe
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