The crit/hit table has me a bit confused. If hit is first pushed off the table, leaving crit and shielded hits, then as I see it, defense is the primary stat to stack, provided disminishing returns penalties are not severe. Intuitively, I though shield rating/absorption rating would be the best. This is what most of the operation tanks were suggesting during the beta, and was the foundation of the argument that BH/Vanguard were the best tanks (due to less spiky damage). I can't speak from firsthand operation experience, but it still seems counter-intuitive to either be crit or a 30% (or more) hit.

PvP is another thing entirely, since some classes have large temporary crit chance buffs that can push shielding off the table, and if everyone is stacking Defense, DPS can stack Accuracy to compensate.

^ Basically what he said.

Without knowing what Accuracy %'s we're dealing with in PvE it's too soon to say that Defense is definitively better than Shield. At the moment, this is how it looks. Two months from now after more data is obtained that point of view may change.

Also, all we know is the tooltip for Accuracy says it affects Defense. That's it. What we don't know is how this mechanic functions and to what degree.

I am wrapping my head around the mods. There is a lot of different terminology floating around that could mean the same thing. Mostly from different builds.

Is the following correct?

Augments = Modulators?

Enhancements = Overlays?

If so could the guilde be edited to avoid confusion?

Absolutely awesome write up!!!

It's always mindblowing to me how some of you guys analyse classes/roles in MMO's.

A "must read!" for all MMO gamers no doubt.

Thank you sir,may the force be with you

Great theory crafting guide.

BTW - I have found at good link to a Jedi Knight - Guardian - on these forums to add to your compilation.

The Secret to Guardian Tanking

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1780

Ikares

I am wrapping my head around the mods. There is a lot of different terminology floating around that could mean the same thing. Mostly from different builds.

 

Is the following correct?

 

Augments = Modulators?

Enhancements = Overlays?

 

If so could the guilde be edited to avoid confusion?

 

Absolutely awesome write up!!!

After playing for awhile I believe they renamed these. Yes. I haven't gotten around to much crafting but once I do the Mod section will most definitely revised. Things have changed a bit and accuracy is important to me. Once I have accurate information I will most certainly update that section.

If an experienced crafter would like to step in and fill us in I would most certainly be receptive to any information they have.

Also, after some testing it appears that taunts wipe threat generated by the target they aggro'd. I'll do further testing tonight when I get home but from initial observation after tanking several Heroics on Nar Shaddaa it appears to be the case. Or possibly evidence that taunts do have a threat value on top of their forced target attack.

Gankstah: I wonder if you have any advice to offer on the various stims and adrenals (adrenals particularly) for tanking. I am leveling up a Vanguard shield spec tank, and I took Biochem as my crafting skill.

The stims are pretty obvious I think; Fortitude Stim = moar HP = tank win. The medpaks are also pretty simple and all heal either you or you and your pet for a set range of HP.

The adrenals I'm not sure yet which are useful. I learned the pattern for the one that buffs Armor by 400, since that seemed aimed at tanks. But I'm skeptical whether armor is worth anything, or if it's like in other games where it never helps as much as the numbers make you think it would, and lots of things bypass it entirely.

The only other one that looked really useful for a tank spec is the one that buffs Power, since it seems that stat boosts all attacks and abilities. Most of the rest like crit chance, crit bonus, etc. seemed only useful for DPS classes. And if I understand it, alacrity is only useful for casting classes, and the weird buff that has a damage penalty looks like something only a healer would want.

Am I missing anything on these? Are the power / armor buffing adrenals the best all around choices for a tank? Or would something else help more?

im actually replying because there is no other way to subscribe to a thread right now.

That said, im subscribing to this thread. Excellent work.

Am I missing anything on these? Are the power / armor buffing adrenals the best all around choices for a tank? Or would something else help more?

The defense stim, imo, is the best choice. It provides a little more wiggle room for your modification stacking. But that's just my opinion.

The defense stim, imo, is the best choice. It provides a little more wiggle room for your modification stacking. But that's just my opinion.

Hey, I am a high level tank and biochemist, Here is the run down on Adrenal's The armor boost adrenals give you the base armor that you see on the stat, for example 850 for MkII's

These give you the base armor you see, but this armor gain IS effected by defensive stance, These stances give 60% bonus armor.

So at level 30 My total armor is at 2531 when I hit my Adrenal for 850 armor my armor goes up to 4040!!! the increase is 1509! these adrenals are pretty much a 10% shield wall.

Now mind you at level 30 my armor and adrenal are a bit behind, I'll update numbers once I cap out again, but the adrenal armor is very much worth stocking.

Gankstah has asked me to post a quick note and let you all know that due to a forum bug he is currently unable to post.

While he attempts to get a resolution from customer service he will still be viewing the forums and will be back with replies and edits to this thread soon.

Thank you

The "flow" of how this system works results in a crit never being shielded and a vice versa.

Apparently every hit has a chance to to be blocked/shielded then absorbed including criticals according to game data. Some hits that aren't the average differ.

For instance I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?

I'm more interested in the way hits are made; it might be nit-picking but two rolls feels like one too many and you could save processor time by just making it one roll.

The "Hit" system could just be a simple breakdown of the four possible outcomes. (Crit, shield, hit and miss)

Someone's chance of hitting is derived as such:

1 - ACCURACY + DEFENSE CHANCE

So, using the numbers below as an example:

Attacker Accuracy: 90%

Attacker Critical Hit: 5%

Defender "Defense Chance": 5%

Defender Shield Chance: 20%

Outcome 1: Miss (1 - .9 + .05 = 15%)

Outcome 2: Shield (20%)

Outcome 3: Critical Hit (5%)

Outcome 4: Hit (The rest AKA 60%)

For instance I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?

If it's a different monster:

It hits softer

if it's the same monster:

It has a wide range of possible damage to deal. If your shield procs there should be a slight blue circular shimmer around your character (At least, to what I've noticed on my trooper).

However, that isn't to say it's not impossible that a crit can be shielded; the lack of combat logs makes it impossible to know.

Great guide, but need some info at the even-more-noobly level. Things such as:

1: Always turn the mob away from the group. Some classes may get damage bonuses to fighting at a boss's back, and bosses often have frontal attacks. It's your job as tank to position the boss as needed, not for your groupmates to move behind whereever you're tanking the boss.

1a: Away means "from where the group is fighting", not simply "180 from where you start". This is important on boss fights where players have to stack in a very specific location.

1b: On bosses that can't be turned or moved, make sure the other players know where they'll need to stand.

1c: Unless it's essential to the mechanics of a boss fight, do not move once you're in position. Moving means your entire group produces less dps, heals for less, and lowers your level of control over the situation (meaning that people may end up taking damage when they weren't before). One possible mechanic that might require you to move is if the boss randomly moves throughout the fight. You might have to move to reacquire aggro. Or, if the boss places healing or damage puddles on the ground, you might have to move to get into or keep out of these

Apparently every hit has a chance to to be blocked/shielded then absorbed including criticals according to game data.

I would very much like to see this "data".

...I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?

Let's pretend for a moment that the base value of our given attack is 200-400 dmg. Crits in TOR are based on a 1.5 modifier (which can be increased via Surge). That gives us a window of 300-600 dmg on a crit. It will be extremely rare for you to see the "same damage" from any string of crits. Anecdotal observation shouldn't be taken as imperial fact. I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be done.

However, that isn't to say it's not impossible that a crit can be shielded; the lack of combat logs makes it impossible to know.

It is impossible for a crit to be shielded.

The following is a quote from Georg Zoeller. I have highlighted the important parts for the reader.

Combat Results:

 

We use a two-roll system for determining combat results.

 

First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target's defense then a "Miss" result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target's equipped weapons. All the possible results - Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover - are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.

 

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target's shield chance off the table. It shouldn't be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target's shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

 

On Diminishing Returns:

 

All of the percentage-based "ratings" on gear have diminishing returns. The design intent is that all tanks will want a mix of Shield, Absorb and Defense ratings, with the "perfect" ratios varied by spec and play style.

For those of you who are unaware of who Georg is, he is the Lead Combat Designer for SWTOR. He's the one responsible for combat design, balance and implementation. Unless Georg and his team completely redesigned the combat system for TOR between the close of the Beta forums and launch... the previous statement is still true. Feel free to contact Georg directly if you want confirmation of the above statement.

Ganksteh

Thank you for responding to my post. The "data" I spoke of was me fighting the same mobs over and over with no gear looking for influx's in the hits. However, based on your findings (the dev post) my theory is moot. I appreciate you answering my question and good job bro.

Hello Gankstah, i would like to thank your for your great work.

I wanted to ask if you would allow me to translate your guide into German to put it in the tank forum. (Of course with you as creator of the database.) Every english reading tank there is exited about your gathered informations, for the non english reading ones its a bit complicated, because they have to gather parts of the informations from the different threads. (One Thread about Aggro, the other one about preferences for stats, ... and the answers are anyway based on the informations of your thread.) Next server maintenance is coming and i need something to do.

Thanks again for the nice work and have a fun in the Game, Antiochia

[quote name='Gankstah;831

Modified Armor Value (MAV)

Note: Armor bonuses are multiplicative exceptions to TOR's mountains of additive calcs. Now' date=' we plug our MAV into our DR calculation (found in the [jumpto=4']Game Calculations[/jumpto] section) to come up with our Base Armor DR (BADR):

I've checked this with my Powertech and my results indicate two things. Firstly that Ion Gas Cylinder is actually giving a armour bonus of 61.5% and secondly that it is additive with Rebraced Armor and not multiplicative.

I noticed this when I was levelling up and wanted to work out how much extra mitigation Rebraced Armor would give me so I ran some calculations however when I got it the calculations were incorrect. I have since cleared my talent tree to discover why this was the case.

Base armor value 1126 - No RA or IGC active.

With IGC active armor value rises to 1818 (1126*1.615)

With RA(1) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1216 (1126*1.08)

With RA(1) and IGC active armor value rises to 1909 (1126+(1126*0.08)+(1126*0.615))

With RA(2) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1306 (1126*1.16)

With RA(2) and IGC active armor value rises to 1999 (1126+(1126*0.16)+(1126*0.615))

Screenshots as evidence here.

Perhaps someone can check Juggernaut and Assassin as well?

Hello Gankstah, i would like to thank your for your great work.

 

I wanted to ask if you would allow me to translate your guide into German to put it in the tank forum. (Of course with you as creator of the database.) Every english reading tank there is exited about your gathered informations, for the non english reading ones its a bit complicated, because they have to gather parts of the informations from the different threads. (One Thread about Aggro, the other one about preferences for stats, ... and the answers are anyway based on the informations of your thread.) Next server maintenance is coming and i need something to do.

 

Thanks again for the nice work and have a fun in the Game, Antiochia

Yes, of course.

As stated in the Author's Note, any and all information contained in this thread is communal property. Use it as you wish. No citation is needed or expected.

I've checked this with my Powertech and my results indicate two things. Firstly that Ion Gas Cylinder is actually giving a armour bonus of 61.5% and secondly that it is additive with Rebraced Armor and not multiplicative.

 

I noticed this when I was levelling up and wanted to work out how much extra mitigation Rebraced Armor would give me so I ran some calculations however when I got it the calculations were incorrect. I have since cleared my talent tree to discover why this was the case.

 

Base armor value 1126 - No RA or IGC active.

With IGC active armor value rises to 1818 (1126*1.615)

With RA(1) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1216 (1126*1.08)

With RA(1) and IGC active armor value rises to 1909 (1126+(1126*0.08)+(1126*0.615))

With RA(2) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1306 (1126*1.16)

With RA(2) and IGC active armor value rises to 1999 (1126+(1126*0.16)+(1126*0.615))

 

Screenshots as evidence here.

 

Perhaps someone can check Juggernaut and Assassin as well?

Thank you for bringing this up. I will definitely check this in game. I've had very little time because of the holidays to keep up with this thread but I really need to get back to testing and verifying information in this thread.

What little time I have has been spent actually playing the game and not really examining it's mechanics. The Warrior story is extremely compelling. I promise though I will check this with my Jugg as soon as I am able.

Here's a simplification for the MEAN MITIGATION section. The 100's are unnecessary since percent is literally "per 100." Removing them leaves:

((((1-A)*B)*(1-C))*(1-D)) + (((1-A)-((1-A)*B))*(1-D)) = T
1 - T = Mean Mitigation

Combining those two equations, and simplifying gives:

1 - (1-A)*B*(1-C)*(1-D) - (1-A)(1-B)(1-D) = Mean Mitigation

The above can be factored to:

1-(1-A)(1-D)(B*(1-C)+(1-B)) = Mean Mitigation

Dealing with crits in the same way that Baltazarr does, which is to assume that all crits from mobs do 150% damage (ie the mob has zero Surge, and I have no idea if that's true for any or all mobs), you get:

1-(1-A)(1-D)(B*(1-C)+(1-B)(1+.5*X)) = Mean Mitigation

Using Baltazarr's example as proof, his numbers are:

A= .16

B= .35

C= .24

D= .3665

X= .25

1-(1-.16)(1-.3665)(.35*(1-.24)+(1-.35)(1+.5*.25)) = .4693 = 46.93%, which is the same answer Baltazarr got.