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Verain
11.13.2019 , 03:00 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Stellarcrusade View Post
The current build gave the dog-fighters an easy lateral move into various BS fighter builds. Seemed silly to me to feature a dog-fighter, to a new patch where it features a dog-fighter, but so be it.
The difference here is that the type 2 scout in the older meta had no effective answers that weren't heavy rock-paper-scissors. They were completely immune to missiles, could trivialize seeker mines (to the extent that seeker mines mostly served to pull a cooldown and allow peels to actually occur), could out turn any other meaningful fighter threat, could outrun any meaningful fighter threat, all while having literally every single piece of anti-railgun and anti-gunship tech on them. That was way way way too much.

Currently, type 2 scouts are still fine dogfighters- arguably the best in low-numbers fights in real games, still able to choose the pace of gameplay, still able to quickly move around the map, still excellent versus gunships. What they've lost is the immunity to missiles, which allows other ships to actually interact with them. They also get to choose a hull that lets them survive a single proton hit, or instead reduce their survivability versus railguns.

Meanwhile, the current meta has included a bunch of other dogfighters. For node builds, we have a node type 3 strike and a node type 2 strike, of which the type 3 strike is probably a little bit better, as it is more defensive in nature and can bring slicing instead of clusters- less damage, but way better at holding off an assault upon your ship for long enough for reinforcements to arrive. Meanwhile, the type 2 strike build can alternate between clusters and EMPs to get enemies to break, take damage, and spread controls. The piledriver can run around and attack nodes, using retros. The EMP field scout can spread CC in a much more guaranteed fashion than the tensor scout, who lives on the node. There's just so many meaningful dogfighters in this pen now. And the type 2 scout is still total hotness here in dom, getting from node to node.

For TDM builds, we saw the double speed EMP/proton type 2 strike build get a lot of adoption, but at this point it seems many pilots kinda have its number. Again, the type 3 strike has edged it out of position, and again, with slicing being a better method to guarantee the landing of a missile along with offer a very threatening control. Piledrivers are good here. Gunships are good here. Bomber nests aren't as good as before, but they are still worth building. The spread of viable ships in TDM seems to me to be a bit smaller than the spread of viable ships in dom.

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One issue is that by switching the feature from scout to fighter, really pushes the bomber down in viability.
So, I agree that bombers aren't great... but there are times when they are. We've certainly seen people complain about huge numbers of bombers, especially the less experienced pilots. And everyone has reason to believe that in a full premade versus premade- like 8v8 or 12v12 of really good pilots- that bombers are the real threat in Dom. The issue is that these games are rare, and if you have two 4 man premades swimming in the middle of the 12v12, it is often not worth bringing your own type 1 bomber, instead asking one of the non-premade members to run beacon, because of how punishing it is for 25% of your premade to be married to one node mostly. In the full premade v premade team, anyone you occupy is roughly as good as you, roughly as good as anyone else. Anyone attacking you, again, same thing. In the games where each side has 5 or less really solid pilots and the remainder are not so wonderful, it's easy to simply not engage the good enemy bomber, and instead bring more force to where their bomber isn't.


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The fighter is the anti-bomber.
The gunship is really the anti bomber. A type 1 scout with EMP and rapids will wreck a bomber really good too. Solid play from a type 2 scout with bursts will still wreck bombers just like before- heck, the scout gets to close faster with the better F3. Basically, bombers are team support ships, whereas previously they had a strong enough advantage versus most scouts that you could survive long enough for backup to arrive.

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Bombers - very important to team, but too weak to play - not viable.
I just disagree with that assessment.

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As for the perfectly legal laser switching that a fighter build can do, that really is BS and should be not used and should be "fixed" by game devs.
I think it's really great. Given how rigid the requirements are for piledriving, I think it's a really solid emergent piece of play. Almost any lateral motion completely wrecks the strategy.

If the devs wished to disable piledriving, they would simply do whatever is necessary to keep the thing that tracks "where you are in the weapon cycle" and move it over to the new weapon. Maybe that's hard, and they simply don't want to bother. Or maybe they are fine with it, because it is an awesome playstyle with literally a giant pile of counters.

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Really doubt the featured ship type should also do enormous burst damage with lasers.
The only ship to feature double the lasers of any other ship shouldn't do good laser damage?

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Adept players can still lead the war in kills without ever using this mechanic.
Of course, no one is saying the piledriver is the best thing ever. It's great damage, it's great burst, but it has so many requirements to get this lance charge to line up properly.

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I worry a little about new players, many start with bombers while they perfect use of lasers/aiming it is nice to be able to drop a few mines out and actually do a little damage. They come in, get insta-killed by a mechanic they do not understand, and move on to other games.
If someone gets gibbed by a mechanic they don't understand in GSF and immediately leaves, bye felicia. GSF is filled with a huge assortment of mechanics that can kill a new pilot without them understanding what is happening. Here's a list:

1- Gunships. New players don't understand gunships, and often cry endlessly about them.
2- Scouts shooting lasers. New players don't understand that being shot with lasers requires them to move, and often die.
3- Strikes shooting lasers. Same problem with (2)
4- Interdiction drones deployed near new players. Drop a drone behind a new player, and not only will the drone frequently solo the player, the player will often accidentally suicide.
4- Slicing.
5- EMP aoe. New players often don't understand they can't break a missile when afflicted by the EMP debuff.

If a new player leaves the moment he stares down a strike fighter who is shooting at him and blows him up, he will never play GSF period, because at some point he will die to something he doesn't understand. There's nothing particularly novel about this.

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gave bombers some sort of breaker which allowed them to remain still
Bombers already have an engine component which does this- they simply can't bring the gamechanging beacon at the same time as this. Bombers generally don't need to be rewarded for holding still any more than they already are, IMO.

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Bringing a third class back into viability can only add to the game.
Bombers are viable today in all game modes. They are not viable on all four man premade teams, but that's because pugs can and do play bombers pretty good. When our premade fights another in a game in the live queue, the allied and enemy bombers are going to have a huge say in how that game turns out, both the type 1 and the type 2 bombers.
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