Thanks. I'm glad you mention Eternal Champion actually, because that is my favorite example of a true challenge of skill in the game.

I'm happy to hear you enjoy Eternal Championship and you find it fun, but please don't call it "a true challenge of skill", as it is not.

If there were difficult solo activities, you wouldnt need to ask why they need BIS 248 gear, right?

 

And just because a small amount of players would be interested or willing to participate in difficult content doesnt mean it has no place. You never know if people will reach a point in their playing experience where they would like to see if they are capable of completing it or not, like NIM raids. Many people have never done them before, but have always been interested, but dont know if they are skilled enough - a solo nim-level FP or ops might give them a chance to test themselves.

From all of the other threads it's not the ones that want a challenge. It's the ones that refuse to do group activities of any sort that are pushing for something like this. They don't care about the operation itself. They want to see the "story" of which there is very, very little. They want to "explore the area" because it's somewhere they haven't seen before (even though no one explores these areas - it's move to the fight, kill, move to the next fight, kill, rinse and repeat). They want what they call "completion" but don't want to go through the "hassle" of doing it the way it was designed. They can't even be bothered to do flashpoints in groups.

These are probably the same people responsible for the heroics nerfs, and why some classes fight a level 12-17 boss at the end of their vanilla chapters.

I'm not a raider anymore, but I used to be on progression teams. I've done exactly 2 ops in the last 5 months - mainly because my guild needed a tank or healer. Most are too long and tedious for my tastes (I'm usually ready to be done with it within an hour of starting). I'm not saying any of this from some "1337 raider" perspective. I couldn't care less for ops. But they are designed to be group/multi-group activities, not solo and should stay that way.

This WHOLE ISSUE stems from two stories: Oricon and SOR.

TL;DR version: If Oricon had never linked operations to story and SOR hadn't offered the option of a solo path around an operation, would solo players really want solo modes of all operations?

With Oricon they attempted to encourage ops play by putting two operations at the end of the story. And AT THE TIME it worked great, there were multiple groups forming EVERY DAY. The problem was that eventually a significant portion of the player base completed the story at least once and the groups dried up, and then the complaints began: "I cannot finish the Oricon and Dread Masters story because it requires raiding and I cannot find a group."

With this in mind, they were probably developing SOR - with another potential raid at the end of the story - and the devs/execs saw an opportunity/learned from a mistake: "Give the players a choice - at the end of SOR we'll give them a solo path or a group path." This quickly lead to more complaints: "You gave us a choice in SOR. GO BACK and give us a choice on Oricon."

I just wonder if these two events never happened would solo players really want solo mode operations? Or is it just that because Oricon is a blended content story (some solo, some small group [the heroic was originally supposed to be done with 2 or more], and some large group) and in SOR (the devs learned from the Oricon mistake) we have a solo path and an ops path that solo players saw that correction and now demand solo path for all ops? Because as so many have said, there's not much story in ANY of the operations:

the introduction: "there's a problem at X we would like you to investigate...bring some friends."

one or two cutscenes within the operation: I/we am/are the BBEG come...to your DOOM!

conclusion: "there was Y on X, we dealt with it." "OK thanks."

As to those who want "an equal chance at top end gear" in solo play....That's what Galactic Command, CXP and Command Crates gives you; a player can play however they want and they will eventually get BiS gear.

This WHOLE ISSUE stems from two stories: Oricon and SOR.

 

TL;DR version: If Oricon had never linked operations to story and SOR hadn't offered the option of a solo path around an operation, would solo players really want solo modes of all operations?

Actually no. Ive been a big advocate of devs creating a completely open MMOrpg experience for ALL types of players. I have played mmos for over 15 years, in every facet from minimalist to top end progressive, from peak time player to early morning off-peak, from large guild to small guild, etc.

The biggest thing I learned over the years is not to take any specifc perspective as the only one. For every time i ran a progressive raid, there is my opposite who doesnt have the same opportunity. For every time I raced through content yo reach max level as soon as possible, there is my opposite who will take 20x as long so as to enjoy the content....and vice versa.

Another thing I learned was that only certain things are truly guaranteed in a multiplayer game. Im (mostly) certain the server will be open and the content will be available (lockouts permitting), im certain of my skill level, amd Im certain i will be available for content im interested in. Other than that, I cant guarantee other people will be available to run content with, I cant guarantee other people will want to run the same content I want to, I cant guarantee there will be people of similar interests, I cant guarantee other people will give me an opportunity to join them, etc.

Because of these variables, I have been a huge advocate of mmorpgs creating a world that allows everyone the same opportunities based on their own personal interests. I was a huge advocate for level sync, the GC looting system, among other things. I have also advocated solo-based content equivalent to endgame group or ops content, because - the number available participants is never guaranteed.

However, with such a change, balance with the scope of the game must remain intact. So my brief proposal was to make end-game difficulty solo content with lockouts linked to grouped lockouts, but only give a portion of the rewards. The rewards need to be on the same tier as end-game, but at a slower pace depending on the time needed to complete the solo content vs the grouped content. The GC system actually brought the game in that direction because now you CAN do what you want, and have a chance at getting end-game gear (if you do enough). But the end game solo content is still sparse.

None of this came about from Oricon or SoR specifically. It came about from years and years of varying experiences in multiple games. This has been an issue since the days of Ultima Online.

There are plenty of players out there that are struggling with the decision to continue playing because they want to complete the harder content, but just dont have the time commitment or the opportunity because of their play schedule. We need to have a system in place that encourages EVERY player to log in regardless of when or for how long, because they know they will have something personally meaningful to do.

I think you guys (psandak & olagatonjedi) may be partially right in your assessments. But another contributing factor (and I feel this is the major factor) is the attitude of gamers in the last few years (I'd even go as far as to say the last 10 years in some cases). Other games have had / still have their group oriented activities, along with solo activities. The ones I've played (and there have been many) never had such an outcry to have their raids reduced to such a state that they could be soloed.

If someone were to suggest to Blizzard that they make Icecrown Citadel available for solo play, that person would be laughed at and ridiculed. If someone were to suggest to ArenaNet that they make a WvWvW available for solo play, they would be laughed at and ridiculed. The same with other games.

Players are becoming lazy and antisocial. That's what it's boiling down to. They no longer only seek a quick route to the "end." Now they want a quick and easy route to the "end."

Then they toss out the ubiquitous statement "I want completion." Guess what?

• You're not going to get completion doing a solo operation because the achievements are for 8-man and 16-man.
  
• You're not going to get completion for solo PvP because the achievements are from defeating other players.
  
• You're not going to get those flashpoint trophies for your stronghold deco because the achievements for them aren't available for solo mode.
  

Crawl out from under your rocks and become an active member* of the gaming community and not just some forum troll begging for the devs to cater to your antisocial gaming attitude. That's what console and single player PC games are for.

* noun

1. a person, animal, plant, group, etc., that is part of a society, party, community, taxon, or other body.

I think you guys (psandak & olagatonjedi) may be partially right in your assessments. But another contributing factor (and I feel this is the major factor) is the attitude of gamers in the last few years (I'd even go as far as to say the last 10 years in some cases). Other games have had / still have their group oriented activities, along with solo activities. The ones I've played (and there have been many) never had such an outcry to have their raids reduced to such a state that they could be soloed.

 

If someone were to suggest to Blizzard that they make Icecrown Citadel available for solo play, that person would be laughed at and ridiculed. If someone were to suggest to ArenaNet that they make a WvWvW available for solo play, they would be laughed at and ridiculed. The same with other games.

 

Players are becoming lazy and antisocial. That's what it's boiling down to. They no longer only seek a quick route to the "end." Now they want a quick and easy route to the "end."

 

Then they toss out the ubiquitous statement "I want completion." Guess what?

• You're not going to get completion doing a solo operation because the achievements are for 8-man and 16-man.
  
• You're not going to get completion for solo PvP because the achievements are from defeating other players.
  
• You're not going to get those flashpoint trophies for your stronghold deco because the achievements for them aren't available for solo mode.
  

 

Crawl out from under your rocks and become an active member* of the gaming community and not just some forum troll begging for the devs to cater to your antisocial gaming attitude. That's what console and single player PC games are for.

 

 

* noun

1. a person, animal, plant, group, etc., that is part of a society, party, community, taxon, or other body.

I think you're overgeneralizing about the intentions of players. However, if the overall mentality is to get stuff done as fast as possible, there are certainly a multitude of valid reasons that vary from person to person, but im likely to believe its not primarily because people are lazy.

I think you're overgeneralizing about the intentions of players. However, if the overall mentality is to get stuff done as fast as possible, there are certainly a multitude of valid reasons that vary from person to person, but im likely to believe its not primarily because people are lazy.

You misunderstood my post. I use lazy in the sense that they want the "rewards" without having to do the requirements for those "rewards." Which is something that every player that already has those "rewards" has done. Not that they're trying to be "power-gamers" and rushing through content (which I think is what you were getting from my post). There is a difference. They want things like achievements, but aren't willing to spend the time, or effort, to get those achievements. They're almost always looking for a short cut way to get them. The next thing they'll be asking for is the Manhunter title to be available for direct purchase so they can wear it on their BH's and feel uber or on some scantily dressed character that they want to RP as some cantina skank that's only interested in rich guys.

They want things like achievements, but aren't willing to spend the time, or effort, to get those achievements.

Or they just dont have the same opportunities that others do. They may be willing to spend the time, just not all in one sitting. They may be willing to put forth the effort, but not have anyone around them to join. Im saying that should not be held against them. I dont think people are necessarily looking for the easiest path, but more an alternate path to achieve the same things, based on their individualized playstyle, playtime, schedule, effort, commitment, etc.

Or they just dont have the same opportunities that others do. They may be willing to spend the time, just not all in one sitting. They may be willing to put forth the effort, but not have anyone around them to join. Im saying that should not be held against them. I dont think people are necessarily looking for the easiest path, but more an alternate path to achieve the same things, based on their individualized playstyle, playtime, schedule, effort, commitment, etc.

Then they shouldn't get the achievement. I don't have the time to go kill 1000 Killiks on alderaan, but that doesn't mean I should get the achievement for doing so.

If it's achievements that are the issue, it's absolutely nuts to suggest someone should get an achievement without doing the content. Heck, even if they have us solo ops, you still won't get the 8 or 16man achievements.

If it's for story, there is literally 2 minutes of cutscenes from the ops. Go hop on YouTube and you can see the story. Or just be polite and explain to a group doing it when it's the gf daily that it's your first time but you'd like to join. Very few would have a problem with that.

Then they shouldn't get the achievement. I don't have the time to go kill 1000 Killiks on alderaan, but that doesn't mean I should get the achievement for doing so.

 

If it's achievements that are the issue, it's absolutely nuts to suggest someone should get an achievement without doing the content. Heck, even if they have us solo ops, you still won't get the 8 or 16man achievements.

 

If it's for story, there is literally 2 minutes of cutscenes from the ops. Go hop on YouTube and you can see the story. Or just be polite and explain to a group doing it when it's the gf daily that it's your first time but you'd like to join. Very few would have a problem with that.

You have the option to kill 1000 killiks regardless of whether you want to because its a soloable achievemwnt. You're comparison actually shows that they have already included the solo crowd in some aspects of the achievement game, why not in all of them? Perhaps an overall ops achievement vs having an 8 or 16m version?

You have the option to kill 1000 killiks regardless of whether you want to because its a soloable achievemwnt. You're comparison actually shows that they have already included the solo crowd in some aspects of the achievement game, why not in all of them? Perhaps an overall ops achievement vs having an 8 or 16m version?

And you have the option to join a 16m said.

I mean geeze, should PvP achievements be soloable? It's the same thing, you just don't want to and that's fine, but then you shouldn't get the achievement.

And you have the option to join a 16m said.

Wrong. If nobody else wishes to join, which I have no control over, then I dont have the option. I thought I went over that part already. Nothing is guaranteed to anyone except what they themselves can bring to the game.

yeah lets give rewards to everybody regardless of the effort put in it.....

will the brontes wings be mailed to me?

will there be a lvl 1 revanchist token?

and will the titan 6 mount be available for 1k credits at a npc vendor?

seriously if you want achievements do stuff required for achievements....

Wrong. If nobody else wishes to join, which I have no control over, then I dont have the option. I thought I went over that part already. Nothing is guaranteed to anyone except what they themselves can bring to the game.

If 20 other people walked into the Killik den and kill all the Killiks, then I don't have the ability to kill the Killiks and get 1000 kills. If I'm too lazy to spend 5 hours killing Killiks, then I'm not gonna kill the Killiks. Both have the same outcome, and both mean I'm not gonna get the achievement. Your excuses for ops mean the exact same thing at the end of the day, you just aren't willing to point the effort in to get the achievement.

/signed

To respond to the OP, I would love the option. Given that its effectively recycling content, it seems the ROI for bioware would be acceptable here; minimal work for additional content to retain player base. Of course that's from an outsider's speculative point of view on workload; perhaps its really not cost effective - hard to say.

I would think it would mean cutting content (removing some fights, etc) and leaving story/ambiance only for the solo crowd, which is fine, the 8+man ops should be more distinct anyways. Clearly the rewards would need to be appropriate to solo play, probably centered around just seeing the story and nothing more.

Its a good idea that would provide additional gameplay to the often non-vocal majority, if its economically possible to pull off.

/signed

 

To respond to the OP, I would love the option. Given that its effectively recycling content, it seems the ROI for bioware would be acceptable here; minimal work for additional content to retain player base. Of course that's from an outsider's speculative point of view on workload; perhaps its really not cost effective - hard to say.

 

I would think it would mean cutting content (removing some fights, etc) and leaving story/ambiance only for the solo crowd, which is fine, the 8+man ops should be more distinct anyways. Clearly the rewards would need to be appropriate to solo play, probably centered around just seeing the story and nothing more.

 

Its a good idea that would provide additional gameplay to the often non-vocal majority, if its economically possible to pull off.

You think a complete re-write of all operations would be minimal work? If you've ever done any type of operation in this game, or raids in other games, you'd know just how ridiculous that statement is. And it wouldn't be additional content. It would be existing content just re-written for those that are anti-social, too scared, or too lazy to do that content the way it was intended to be done.

If 20 other people walked into the Killik den and kill all the Killiks, then I don't have the ability to kill the Killiks and get 1000 kills. If I'm too lazy to spend 5 hours killing Killiks, then I'm not gonna kill the Killiks. Both have the same outcome, and both mean I'm not gonna get the achievement. Your excuses for ops mean the exact same thing at the end of the day, you just aren't willing to point the effort in to get the achievement.

Your killik example has nothing to do with being lazy, and is irrelevant to the ops situation. You will always have the opportunity to kill killiks each time you log in. If there are not enough killiks because of farming, we can provide feedback and either the number of killiks can be increased or the spawn rate can increase. Additionally, there are killiks available in personal instances that will help you get your achievement. With ops, you MUST coordinate with other people, but BW cannot magically create people to help you get your achievement.

Again, its not about effort or laziness. Its about a limitation of the game.

yeah lets give rewards to everybody regardless of the effort put in it.....

 

will the brontes wings be mailed to me?

will there be a lvl 1 revanchist token?

and will the titan 6 mount be available for 1k credits at a npc vendor?

 

seriously if you want achievements do stuff required for achievements....

Explain how to join a 16m ops when there arent 15 people willing to join? Ill be waiting for your answer....

Your killik example has nothing to do with being lazy, and is irrelevant to the ops situation. You will always have the opportunity to kill killiks each time you log in. If there are not enough killiks because of farming, we can provide feedback and either the number of killiks can be increased or the spawn rate can increase. Additionally, there are killiks available in personal instances that will help you get your achievement. With ops, you MUST coordinate with other people, but BW cannot magically create people to help you get your achievement.

 

Again, its not about effort or laziness. Its about a limitation of the game.

It is about effort. Coordinating with others requires effort, and so BW provides rewards to those who do. There are plenty of NiM groups out there, and quite a few 16m groups (and plenty with open spots), so if you are willing to put the effort in you could get the achievements. Orrrr, save up a bunch of credits, and buy a run to get the achievements. Then, they will work around your schedule, and there is no coordinating necessary on your part.

Obviously, you don't like group content and ops. And that is fine. But taking away the achievements for it is just as silly as taking away achievements for solo content. I mean, how would you feel if BW decided that killik kills only count if you do it with a partner? Seems pretty silly right?

There are lots of different things to do in this game. And some of them require working with others (PVP, harder PVE content) and some doesn't. If you hate working with others, just enjoy the myriad of things you can do solo, but don't take stuff away from those of us who enjoy working in groups, and find it easier and more fun to do so then to farm killiks for an achievement.

It is about effort. Coordinating with others requires effort, and so BW provides rewards to those who do. There are plenty of NiM groups out there, and quite a few 16m groups (and plenty with open spots), so if you are willing to put the effort in you could get the achievements. Orrrr, save up a bunch of credits, and buy a run to get the achievements. Then, they will work around your schedule, and there is no coordinating necessary on your part.

Point me to the team that will always be available for every player willing to pay, and that will always be playing the game from beginning to end. And again, its not solely about achievements (cheevos are a very small part of the issue).

Obviously, you don't like group content and ops. And that is fine. But taking away the achievements for it is just as silly as taking away achievements for solo content. I mean, how would you feel if BW decided that killik kills only count if you do it with a partner? Seems pretty silly right?

Wrong. I love group and ops content. I, like many others, dont have time to do group and ops content all the time (or ever, in some cases).

There are lots of different things to do in this game. And some of them require working with others (PVP, harder PVE content) and some doesn't. If you hate working with others, just enjoy the myriad of things you can do solo, but don't take stuff away from those of us who enjoy working in groups, and find it easier and more fun to do so then to farm killiks for an achievement.

I never said take away the content.

Point me to the team that will always be available for every player willing to pay, and that will always be playing the game from beginning to end. And again, its not solely about achievements (cheevos are a very small part of the issue).

 

 

Wrong. I love group and ops content. I, like many others, dont have time to do group and ops content all the time (or ever, in some cases).

 

 

I never said take away the content.

you always have the option of forming your own group for a 8 man, or 16 man, raid. It may take a more time than traveling to Alderran to kill some ant people. But, you have that option. And, you have the option to wait for as long as it takes to fill the group. You may not love it, and I'm not saying I would or do, but it's part of it. You want that type of achievement. Do the work to get it done. That includes taking the initiative and trying to form your own group. At least thats what I think of doing if I want 16 man or 8 man achievements. Waiting on others to accomplish your goals while you sit on your hands (for lack of a better way to say it) isn't how you get achievements.

Also included in this idea is if you want operations achievements not joining say the achievement hunters discord server where people come out of the wood work to help there, or joining a guild. Basically, these are all options to help with group achievements. If a player refuses to do these things then I'm also of the opinion that no they shouldn't get that achievement.

I know it's a bit of a broken record of sorts. I just still think there's truth to those assertions.

Explain how to join a 16m ops when there arent 15 people willing to join? Ill be waiting for your answer....

if we are talkimg sm.... just 8 man them...

or maybe find a guild / friends?

if you find a nice guild (doesnt have to be yours) in a 8 man you could ask them if they help you to get your 16 cheevo..

oh forget it that only works for nice and polite people

today on tulak hord there even was a random asation 16 nim run....

and saying there is no challenging single player content is just not right just try playing the chapters on master mode.

the rewards for that are crappy thats true... but you will have a real challenge there and need to get every gcd right.

and if its all about the story..... why not siply watch it on youtube??

i understand that people want to do oricon ops and ravagers for the sm rewards as they are quite nice... but to be honest.. every day people are looking for group finder operations so its no proolem to find a group for them.

if we are talkimg sm.... just 8 man them...

or maybe find a guild / friends?

if you find a nice guild (doesnt have to be yours) in a 8 man you could ask them if they help you to get your 16 cheevo..

oh forget it that only works for nice and polite people

today on tulak hord there even was a random asation 16 nim run....

 

 

and saying there is no challenging single player content is just not right just try playing the chapters on master mode.

the rewards for that are crappy thats true... but you will have a real challenge there and need to get every gcd right.

 

and if its all about the story..... why not siply watch it on youtube??

i understand that people want to do oricon ops and ravagers for the sm rewards as they are quite nice... but to be honest.. every day people are looking for group finder operations so its no proolem to find a group for them.

Ive joined guilds, ive done the master mode chapters, i have the nim 8m and 16m cheevos. I have all of that stuff, because i was fortunate enough to play at a time to get the opportunities. Not everyone has those opportunities, no matter how mamy times you believe they do and are lazy or not putting thr effort in.

It seems like you are intentionally omitting the most important part of there not being enough people to join or form up at any given time (based on the thousands of different schedules people have). None of your solutions (if you choose to call them that) ever really address that issue.

I am a father of a 2 6 and 8 year old. Work 10 hours a day all random hours. No matter the time of day if I spam I'm starting a ops group it always fills up no matter the time of day...I think you're just complaining for the sake of complaining because all of your complaints are flat wrong