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How does our feedback work


Icykill_

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Thak you for showing how feedback is gathered, it's an interesting process as well as complicated, and for those involved must be quite annoying at times as well.

 

However, and i hope you don't take it the wrong way, what the heck happened with the big amount of feedback, mostly negative, about the introduction of the Galactic Command Crates. What missed there? especially since after it's introduction you rushed with fixes and improvements and nowdays is almost as it was before, except pvp still needs some twiking.

 

Was it so far ahead in developement that you could do nothing but implement it, despite our feedback?

 

Again, i hope i didn't anger or annoy with this question, and big thanks for the greatly improved communication, but this is something that naggs me.

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Unfortunately, yes, I think it really is hard to get along. Think of developing SWtOR as being like feeding a pack of starving dogs. There is only enough kibble for one dog to get a full belly and the pack knows that. When they see that bowl of kibble coming they will fight to get what they can. The bigger, stronger dogs will get most of the food, but not enough to be satisfied, and the smaller, weaker dogs will be lucky to get any food at all. Now if there was enough kibble for all dogs to get a decent meal, then you could ask for them to sit pretty and wait their turn.

 

One thing I think is important when giving feedback is being clear and concise. I have seen a lot of people giving feedback using very vague terms. Like people saying they want PvE content when what they really mean is group content. Or saying group content when what they really mean is classic operations. KotET provided quite a bit of PvE group content at launch, but it wasn't the right PvE group content. If you ask for PvE content and they give you Uprisings and DvL world bosses, they are giving you what you said you wanted. Don't leave room for misinterpretations.

 

While I do understand the not enough kibble argument. And that may work for people who are new to the game. I remember 0.0 - 3.0 and there was enough kibble. 3.0 and on we started to get a lot less kibble. Subscription fees remained the same. The price of expansions did drop. But I can't recall anyone qq'ing about paying for an expansion who wasn't already f2p.

 

To a certain extent some of this happens. Sure some people asked for more pve and didn't specify. But then there was the streams where NEW OPS was spammed. Like over and over again. For like a year. Along with many requests for new PvP, And an acknowledgment that GSF existed not to mention some love. So I also don't buy it. Tait was slowing people and banning them from twitch left and right and they still couldn't stop the spam.

 

And when they become dis honest with us is when I became toxic. And this is where I refuse to give any Dev a pass. Because they all know that it was stated for SoR we would would not have to wait more than a year for new ops. Which is fine if that alone was mis spoke. Or things didn't work out. But after that year is when they started stringing us along. Keith may think that the community had become toxic over the lack of communication. Personally I think it was lies that were communicated to us that turned the community toxic. I know that's when I turned toxic. Cause I watched all those streams where we were told we can't talk about ops. But group content is coming. And they couldn't say what that meant. So stay tuned. So I don't want to hear that we didn't communicate which we wanted. They refused to communicate what was coming. In a most dis honest way. And every stream they would say were going to talk about it. But this is the story stream. Like that mattered one bit. Every stream was the story stream cause they knew this one boss was years off. And they weren't remotely honest about it. When that's acknowledged you will gain some ground with me. Thats why were toxic.

 

But Keith. If you're really honest answer this question honestly. Not one single person on Your team has.

 

How many new pvp's were released last year? If you worked for wow before working for this game Keith then you understand the lingo. If you PVP then you know exactly what I mean. This is a lie I've seen your team push since the release of Odessen. I lie ive seen you push. It's not a stretch of words. It's actually pretty clear two anyone who pvp's.

 

How many new Pvp's were released last year?

 

Cause I don't want to hear about how the community is toxic about communication if you are unwilling to own all of it. Not if you're going to push aside the non flattering parts.

 

Also Keith you stated that you think the community holds animosity towards the devs but the devs didn't hold any against us. Well I watched all those streams. And sure you know him a lot better than we do. But some animosity came across pretty clearly. It wasn't musco (who has taken more abuse than anyone), and forgive me I can't remember his name but the lead writer. He was decent about it too. But the third part of the dream team seemed pretty pissed off that we weren't happy being lied too. Which I don't mind cause it was honest. But let's not make it dishonest and act like it didn't happen. Let's not say we delivered on more pvp's then we did.

 

And for the people who are still here you should be kissing their asses. Maybe not mine since I don't hold back and don't mind stepping on some feelings to get my point across. But a lot of us still here watched this game tank. Watch guilds tank. Watched our friends leave an stuck around. I'm a GM of a guild and like many if us we put in a lot of work trying to hold this game together. All the while your team wasn't forthright. And wasn't as honest as they could be.

 

Own that. Cause all this extra communication is only going to make me more toxic if it's more lies

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KoTFE and KoTET got a lot of hate AND acceptance from the broader player base. I think a lot of the expressed hate was a combination of pent-up frustrations looking for things to discharge on, particularly over the narrow set of content released in the last two expacs which did nothing to satisfy PvPers and OPs raiders. As for story... I expect they will keep taking a different direction in story with each expac (which is really what they have done since launch in one way or the other). Not saying that is the right move.. just observing the nature of the studio to experiment and test new waters in MMO approach... which for classic veteran MMO players probably ruffles a lot of feathers. In the MMO space, Bioware still owns story vs their competitors in my view... though different players have different wants for story... and Biowares curse here is that they laid out an epic multi-class story arc in the vanilla release.... but they also had years and hundreds of millions of dollars to set all that up too... which is not realistic in my view for future expansions... particularly when this studio does yearly expacs.. rather then once every 2 to 3 years.

 

The KOTFE story got a lot of hate as well, and even though you downplay it, the ratio of love to hate in admittedly the limited sample sizes we have seems to vary between 3-1 and 7-8 to 1 for those who hate it vs those who love it.

 

What I mean by that is, when someone says "I love the story, and everyone I know does too!", usually its that one person repeatedly posting this, whereas that person will have anywhere from 3-8 DIFFERENT people saying "Uh, no, that story stunk because it wasn't true to Star Wars OR the stories that came before."

 

This is noticeable in the game in group chat when it comes up, in the forums when it comes up, and in reddit when it comes up, and the people defending are often outnumbered by about 3-8 for every one of them defending the story.

 

That is a significant discrepancy to try to downplay. And the stunning thing is those who did not like the story all have the same 2 criticisms for the most part - it didn't feel like Star Wars, and it ignored/crapped on/erased essentially all the previous story with its plotline. Those 2 points are the thrust of many different people.

 

This isn't something to chalk up to "well, in MMOs, every story is different, so ceil la vie!" Because that argument ignores the fact that, aside from Makeb by a small margin with regards to class story, every single expansion prior to KOTFE remained true to the tone, feel, and overall plot SWTOR had to offer, despite different stories and scenarios - that right there kills the "just wait for another story" argument.

 

Sorry that I am so hard nosed about this, but the truth is that in a sense, it almost goes back to the debates about the old Star Wars books that are legends territory now - some people were just content to read those books and have the names of the characters be the same as the names of the characters in the movies, and therefore loved the stories. Others however, would notice that for instance, "Luke Skywalker" was acting in a manner that wasn't how the movie character would act, or that scenes in some books seemed to be written around a character saying his "catch phrase" rather than serving the story. It was why Timothy Zahn always got such high praise - he wrote all the Star Wars characters as they would have been in the movies, and actually captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars in his books. As an author, he was true to the integrity of the overall Star Wars story.

 

Likewise here, the story BioWare told was rich, compelling, and flat out captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars - right up until KOTFE, where you are pulled right out of the previous plot and put into a setting, scenario, and story that feels very generic, very forced, and almost screams "please forget about everything before KOTFE! Those stories never really happened!" in terms of the overall tone, at least for those who loved Ziost and everything that came before.

 

Best way I can describe it is, imagine if you went to see a Star Wars movie. 2/3 of the film were vintage, enjoyable Star Wars. Then in the last 3rd, suddenly the main character is on the bridge of the Enterprise and the last 3rd of the movie is a Star Trek film that ignores what happened in the first 2/3rds other than some cursory lines to mention that it happened, and then is ignored for the rest of the film.

 

Would you be happy spending money on a film like that? I'm sure some people somewhere would love that - does that make it ok for them to do that? If so, how can you justify that to those wanting to see an entire Star Wars film? Tough Luck, wait for the next film? If you can't justify it, why is it not ok to do in a movie, but its ok to do in a game based on the movie? Both are entertainment, and both have a certain expectation just based on the property, and that expectation ISN'T WRONG. It's not wrong to go to a Star Wars movie and want the whole film to be Star Wars. Its NOT WRONG to play a Star Wars BioWare game, have an excellent time through Shadow of Revan, and then EXPECT that KotFE and beyond CONTINUE the threads of the story that came before, rather than treating it like a nuisance to be disposed of.

 

This is where every argument of people who defend the current story falls completely apart - it is indefensible in any rational literary, story-telling sense. The argument that "some people like it" doesn't hold water, because more people don't, because that ratio IS measurable by anyone willing to look, and because the game commits the cardinal sin of literary world building - you do not betray your own story. And that is what BioWare did with KotFE and KotET.

 

It may never get fixed. Or maybe they do move on and move back to the original story given the feedback, and that is all you were trying to express.

 

But I just can't let the soft downplaying of the impact of the KOTFE story slide any more - its disingenuous.

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The KOTFE story got a lot of hate as well, and even though you downplay it, the ratio of love to hate in admittedly the limited sample sizes we have seems to vary between 3-1 and 7-8 to 1 for those who hate it vs those who love it.

 

What I mean by that is, when someone says "I love the story, and everyone I know does too!", usually its that one person repeatedly posting this, whereas that person will have anywhere from 3-8 DIFFERENT people saying "Uh, no, that story stunk because it wasn't true to Star Wars OR the stories that came before."

 

This is noticeable in the game in group chat when it comes up, in the forums when it comes up, and in reddit when it comes up, and the people defending are often outnumbered by about 3-8 for every one of them defending the story.

 

That is a significant discrepancy to try to downplay. And the stunning thing is those who did not like the story all have the same 2 criticisms for the most part - it didn't feel like Star Wars, and it ignored/crapped on/erased essentially all the previous story with its plotline. Those 2 points are the thrust of many different people.

 

This isn't something to chalk up to "well, in MMOs, every story is different, so ceil la vie!" Because that argument ignores the fact that, aside from Makeb by a small margin with regards to class story, every single expansion prior to KOTFE remained true to the tone, feel, and overall plot SWTOR had to offer, despite different stories and scenarios - that right there kills the "just wait for another story" argument.

 

Sorry that I am so hard nosed about this, but the truth is that in a sense, it almost goes back to the debates about the old Star Wars books that are legends territory now - some people were just content to read those books and have the names of the characters be the same as the names of the characters in the movies, and therefore loved the stories. Others however, would notice that for instance, "Luke Skywalker" was acting in a manner that wasn't how the movie character would act, or that scenes in some books seemed to be written around a character saying his "catch phrase" rather than serving the story. It was why Timothy Zahn always got such high praise - he wrote all the Star Wars characters as they would have been in the movies, and actually captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars in his books. As an author, he was true to the integrity of the overall Star Wars story.

 

Likewise here, the story BioWare told was rich, compelling, and flat out captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars - right up until KOTFE, where you are pulled right out of the previous plot and put into a setting, scenario, and story that feels very generic, very forced, and almost screams "please forget about everything before KOTFE! Those stories never really happened!" in terms of the overall tone, at least for those who loved Ziost and everything that came before.

 

Best way I can describe it is, imagine if you went to see a Star Wars movie. 2/3 of the film were vintage, enjoyable Star Wars. Then in the last 3rd, suddenly the main character is on the bridge of the Enterprise and the last 3rd of the movie is a Star Trek film that ignores what happened in the first 2/3rds other than some cursory lines to mention that it happened, and then is ignored for the rest of the film.

 

Would you be happy spending money on a film like that? I'm sure some people somewhere would love that - does that make it ok for them to do that? If so, how can you justify that to those wanting to see an entire Star Wars film? Tough Luck, wait for the next film? If you can't justify it, why is it not ok to do in a movie, but its ok to do in a game based on the movie? Both are entertainment, and both have a certain expectation just based on the property, and that expectation ISN'T WRONG. It's not wrong to go to a Star Wars movie and want the whole film to be Star Wars. Its NOT WRONG to play a Star Wars BioWare game, have an excellent time through Shadow of Revan, and then EXPECT that KotFE and beyond CONTINUE the threads of the story that came before, rather than treating it like a nuisance to be disposed of.

 

This is where every argument of people who defend the current story falls completely apart - it is indefensible in any rational literary, story-telling sense. The argument that "some people like it" doesn't hold water, because more people don't, because that ratio IS measurable by anyone willing to look, and because the game commits the cardinal sin of literary world building - you do not betray your own story. And that is what BioWare did with KotFE and KotET.

 

It may never get fixed. Or maybe they do move on and move back to the original story given the feedback, and that is all you were trying to express.

 

But I just can't let the soft downplaying of the impact of the KOTFE story slide any more - its disingenuous.

 

They'll just say silent majority an brush it off

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They'll just say silent majority an brush it off

 

Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

 

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.

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Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

 

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.

 

 

I completely agree with you. I've never once seen a majority be quiet about it. But that's just me. I don't believe in **** that doesn't exist :p

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Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

 

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.

Agreed! It was the majority.

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I think this is really important:

One thing I think is important when giving feedback is being clear and concise. I have seen a lot of people giving feedback using very vague terms. Like people saying they want PvE content when what they really mean is group content. Or saying group content when what they really mean is classic operations. KotET provided quite a bit of PvE group content at launch, but it wasn't the right PvE group content. If you ask for PvE content and they give you Uprisings and DvL world bosses, they are giving you what you said you wanted. Don't leave room for misinterpretations.

 

I know at times I'm not entirely sure what a player is asking for simply because of how they ask or how disorganized their thoughts are. I'm sure the devs have the same problem. it would probably help if people took more time gathering their thoughts over gathering their rants.

 

Here's a solution. Come up with two sentences: what I want; why I feel it is needed. Then put all of the explanation below the two sentences.

 

This way, you will know if you are trying to address too many problems at once; you won't be able to fit the base idea into two sentences. Also, you will have trouble forming the sentences if your idea of the problem is hazy. More importantly, there will be a quick obvious point that even a skimmer can pick out, but you won't have to sacrifice commentary.

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Agreed! It was the majority.

 

And to be clear - I don't fault anyone who likes KotFE. Different strokes for different folks.

 

But don't misrepresent or else intentionally downplay that those people are (or at least were) in the minority, and the majority by all measurements hated the new story direction.

 

And by challenging the developers to put out a better, more cohesive story to the one we all fell in love with pre-KotFE, the underlying idea is that it ends up being worth it because you may be able to get some of the players who left BACK - likely slowly at first, but via word of mouth, you may be able to build the population back up, and more players playing benefits EVERYONE.

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I absolutely love where GC and gearing is right now...for PvE.

 

I agree. GC at it's current iteration is alright, provided PvP gearing gets tweaked just a tiny bit. Supplementary boxes would never have been an issue. It was the totalitarian reliance on these boxes for set gear that soured the cake for me.

 

Edit:

 

The argument that "some people like it" doesn't hold water, because more people don't, because that ratio IS measurable by anyone willing to look, and because the game commits the cardinal sin of literary world building - you do not betray your own story.

 

The first part is what I mentioned a few pages ago, admittedly with some more text. Often enough, whether a feature is liked or disliked really depends on focus groups and what kind of features the player likes. Heck, liking a story might even depend on the person enjoying story at all.

 

However, KotET wasn't really that binary for most of the conversation cycle. Most of this forum was filled with criticism, sometimes valuable and constructive, and sometimes inflamatory. I've heard people leveling alts to replay the class stories dozens of times in the past months. I've never heard someone say they would love to replay KotET though. Agreed, it's a limited sample size when my own perception is concerned, but the forums, reddit, twitter and guild chats across servers do paint an interesting picture of indifference to KotET. Nobody is faulted for liking it, but please don't downplay the criticism it received.

Edited by Alssaran
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And to be clear - I don't fault anyone who likes KotFE. Different strokes for different folks.

 

But don't misrepresent or else intentionally downplay that those people are (or at least were) in the minority, and the majority by all measurements hated the new story direction.

 

And by challenging the developers to put out a better, more cohesive story to the one we all fell in love with pre-KotFE, the underlying idea is that it ends up being worth it because you may be able to get some of the players who left BACK - likely slowly at first, but via word of mouth, you may be able to build the population back up, and more players playing benefits EVERYONE.

 

Same. And I don't ever feel like I've been "what this game needs is less story. F those guys". I've always been like "good for them. I want ops!" Till one of them pops off about silent majorities and how the chapters were so worth sacrificing end game content. It wasn't. Even a lot of the influencers were complaining about the story at the end of kofte. And they get free stuff for promoting the game!

 

So ya. I think a fair compromise for everyone is SoR type expansion. Or a rise of the hutt cartel. Or more and I'd pay the standard $60 expansion fee every year.

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NONE of that was Keith's idea...I blame Ben for the entire Ziost/KOTFE/KOTET fiasco. Every bit of it! And for every bit of terrible communication we've suffered through the past 4 years - since Keith, Charles AND Eric, have all posted more in the time that Keith has been in charge, than during the entirety of Ben's reign.

 

Keith better not get discouraged...he's already done more good for this game in a few months, than Ben did in years. If he starts to stray, I'll be sure to let him know ;)

I would not go into blaming Ben so much because we don't really know how much his hands where tied by James and other executives. Still guess your last sentence and the one below paint a pretty good portrait of the game and the communication.

No disrespect to ben but holy crap does this new producer have some great direction. I haven't seen communication like this since launch.

 

Now to me, the extract of the below comment are the very substance of the problem with SWTOR story writing atm

Sorry that I am so hard nosed about this, but the truth is that in a sense, it almost goes back to the debates about the old Star Wars books that are legends territory now - some people were just content to read those books and have the names of the characters be the same as the names of the characters in the movies, and therefore loved the stories. Others however, would notice that for instance, "Luke Skywalker" was acting in a manner that wasn't how the movie character would act, or that scenes in some books seemed to be written around a character saying his "catch phrase" rather than serving the story. It was why Timothy Zahn always got such high praise - he wrote all the Star Wars characters as they would have been in the movies, and actually captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars in his books. As an author, he was true to the integrity of the overall Star Wars story.

 

Likewise here, the story BioWare told was rich, compelling, and flat out captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars - right up until KOTFE, where you are pulled right out of the previous plot and put into a setting, scenario, and story that feels very generic, very forced, and almost screams "please forget about everything before KOTFE! Those stories never really happened!" in terms of the overall tone, at least for those who loved Ziost and everything that came before.

 

To this issue the solution is, as well said below, not to bend and accept average/mediocre content.

And to be clear - I don't fault anyone who likes KotFE. Different strokes for different folks.

 

But don't misrepresent or else intentionally downplay that those people are (or at least were) in the minority, and the majority by all measurements hated the new story direction.

 

And by challenging the developers to put out a better, more cohesive story to the one we all fell in love with pre-KotFE, the underlying idea is that it ends up being worth it because you may be able to get some of the players who left BACK - likely slowly at first, but via word of mouth, you may be able to build the population back up, and more players playing benefits EVERYONE.

Although as long as they keep delivering one fits all classes story they won't make it great, even if it better fits a true SW setting.

 

Same thing goes for PvP and PvE you have to distinguish them at some point. Although that pertains to another topic.

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Keith,

 

I wanted to touch on something in the bad feeling podcast, I have a scoundrel healer. It has been my main since launch and it is fun and sure it doesn't have the strong healing like a sage does but I do love it. My boyfriend told me that it can be hard to actually learn the healing of a scoundrel but once you take the time to learn it, you can be just as awesome a medic than one of the easier one. I appreciate hearing that someone else likes their scoundrel healer. So +100000 for you.

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So basically what you're admitting to is that you have an obscene level of bias, did see all the people leaving but don't care. In other words you're saying I'm right but you don't care. Good to know. I'm sure that's useful feedback so as to not consider your opinion, since you seem to be very acutely aware you are in the minority and simply don't bother to read things that disagree with you.

 

Zion, bro, just stop engaging this individual. It's a waste of time. I'll refer you to this thread since you've been gone a while:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=923534

 

He's as selfish as they come. No need wasting your breath over.

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NONE of that was Keith's idea...I blame Ben for the entire Ziost/KOTFE/KOTET fiasco. Every bit of it! And for every bit of terrible communication we've suffered through the past 4 years - since Keith, Charles AND Eric, have all posted more in the time that Keith has been in charge, than during the entirety of Ben's reign.

 

Keith better not get discouraged...he's already done more good for this game in a few months, than Ben did in years. If he starts to stray, I'll be sure to let him know ;)

 

Agreed!

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  • Dev Post
Would it be possible for us to have a genuine example of that, even if it is from something a few years back.

 

So we can see a) what was planned, b) what feedback was received, c) how that feedback led to changes, d) what was actually released.

 

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

  1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
  2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
  3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
  4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

  1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
  2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
  3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
  4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one :i_wink:)

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming :hope_05:

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@Charles.

 

Thank for the attempt of an example of the kind I asked for.

 

But I'd love to know what meaningful choices and consequences do YOU think were in KOTFE /KOTET?

 

There were none.

 

With the exception of the presence or absence of a few Companions EVERYONE ended KOTET exactly the same as everyone else. Even the "choice" on your leadership style once on the eternal throne was effectively meaningless.

 

Where was the choice on Iokath to tell both the Empire and the Republic to "get off my planet", as I am now the commander of the most powerful force in the galaxy.

 

Given what happened the first time I approached Iokath why would I be moronically stupid enough to go in with the entire Eternal Fleet, without first sending a few probes to see what would happen - we know for a fact the Eternal Fleet has access to probes, it was a probe encounter that kicked off KOTFE Ch.1.

 

There have been no meaningful or intelligent choices anywhere in KOTFE/ET or Iokath so far.

 

All The Best

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The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences.

 

This is quite interesting. With how KotET turned out, and with how a few of the plots that were introduced during KotFE were seemingly left unfinished in KotET, I kind of suspected that it was shortened considerably. For example, the Dark Sanctuary seemed to be a very important part of the gravestone. Almost as if it had a ritualistic meaning to the entire thing, or was a last-ditch attempt of whoever build the ship to hide something in there.

 

And speaking about this shortened story, I'm kind of curious. Mainly as someone who loves story, but also as an aspiring English major and writer: Is there any way we might see the writers and Eric make a live-stream, or you making a forum post in which you derail a bit and tell us a short "what if...?" the likes of:

 

What was cut from the story?

 

How would the story have played out if everything was kept whole? Would there have been more revelations? Would there have been things that we, as of right now, aren't getting anymore? Such as the aforementioend Dark Sanctuary?

 

Why was that cut from the story?

 

How did you decide which plot-lines to keep and which to bring to a sudden end to finish the narrative early?

 

Of course, if most of that content was rearranged and put into future releases as information tidbits, I can see a reason to not do such a story live-stream at all. It would be spoiler territory. And from a purely feedback or "necessity" point of view, that stream/post wouldn't be important. However, I'd love to see where KotFE and KotET were supposed to be going as a trilogy, and what was cut out. It might connect some strings we're simply not seeing right now.

Edited by Alssaran
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This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

  1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
  2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
  3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
  4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

  1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
  2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
  3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
  4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one :i_wink:)

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming :hope_05:

I think you did a great job Charles, and I'm sad staffing/budget doesn't allow for you to implement the entire story the way you saw it happening. I can't imagine having to trim things to the extent you did.

 

One of my issues with the "Knights of" stories (besides those you mentioned), was that it removed our character for 5-years, without anything at all changing. Fleets all stayed the same. Our personal starship is the same. My weapons, armor, everything was stagnant for those 5 years. I know you had to work within the framework of the existing MMO, but a Fleet overhaul was needed, or something, that made me feel like I had actually moved forward in time.

 

My only other complaint was that group content took a back seat for 2 years. That has nothing to do with you, but that puts a big cloud over the whole "Knights of" story.

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Chris thanks for the post.

 

Over all the story was enjoyable if not a tad long with chapters I never wanted to do.

 

Companions were one of my biggest issues and still is one with the game and the story right now. I am beyond annoyed that some still have not returned and really unhappy with the order of those returned.

 

The ability to opt out of recruiting certain people was needed in most cases, and in some you had it and in others you had to go through long drawn out stuff to in the end reject someone you never would have been interested in at all. For instance Firebrand....I never ever wanted to meet with a terrorist. Never. When I did I was forced to slog through a story I cared nothing at all for and just got frustrated. Auto-launching chapters was another point I really think you guys should have fixed and yet didn't.

 

And to be totally frank that story made little to no sense for non-force users.......

 

I have run to completely on a few people tried it as imp side, rep side, force users and non-force users. I tried hard to enjoy it but there are parts that just aren't enjoyable and things that in my veiw should have been fixed but never were. So while your saying you took player feedback and all there was a ton you really didn't. I wasn't the only one asking for you to remove auto-launching chapters, or wanted their companions back faster (or wanted specifice companions back instead of many of the least liked ones).

 

I get some things are harder to change than others, but I think you missed some pretty low hanging fruit there in my opinion.

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What was cut from the story?

 

How would the story have played out if everything was kept whole? Would there have been more revelations? Would there have been things that we, as of right now, aren't getting anymore? Such as the aforementioend Dark Sanctuary?

 

Why was that cut from the story?

 

How did you decide which plot-lines to keep and which to bring to a sudden end to finish the narrative early?

These are really good questions!!! I don't know if Charles is at liberty to share any of the details, but if he could, I'd be very interested to read what the original vision was.

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I think you did a great job Charles, and I'm sad staffing/budget doesn't allow for you to implement the entire story the way you saw it happening. I can't imagine having to trim things to the extent you did.

 

One of my issues with the "Knights of" stories (besides those you mentioned), was that it removed our character for 5-years, without anything at all changing. Fleets all stayed the same. Our personal starship is the same. My weapons, armor, everything was stagnant for those 5 years. I know you had to work within the framework of the existing MMO, but a Fleet overhaul was needed, or something, that made me feel like I had actually moved forward in time.

 

My only other complaint was that group content took a back seat for 2 years. That has nothing to do with you, but that puts a big cloud over the whole "Knights of" story.

 

Community feedback = staffing/budget? I don't get how you got to staffing/budget being the issue

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