You are missing the point I'm afraid. Is Black Hole obsolete? No. Is Campaign? Dreadguard? Nope. All that gear is still available, although it has become lower tiered. But even that isn't the point trying to be made here by those of us who have dedicated pvp toons. The point is that it's not WH/EWH is becoming lower tiered, it's that it is now GARBAGE. The bolster system released with 2.0 made playing naked better.

 

This new patch makes WH/EWH better than playing naked. That's the tier it operates at now. Better than Naked. Thus, new MMO slang is born. First there was "afk", followed closely by woot, brt, bbl, otw, dps, dots, spank, etc... and now we have "btn."

 

Dude 1: "Hey bro, how's that new light saber?"

Dude 2: "Meh. Btn."

 

It's not that there are two new tiers of PVP gear to grind for now. No one is upset about that. We want that gear and despite this debacle, we are going after it. It's that now, after hundreds of hours, the gear WE HAD to grind for the new tier is BTN. It's not better than level 33 green gear, it's not better than the rank 25 common drops, or the craftable PVE 28's. It's BTN. Even though the stats on the Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages read as it being STILL the BiS relic for DPS, it is suddenly, immediately worthless.

 

And some of us, who are pure pvp'ers, are a little miffed because that's the gear we have. And we regret not picking up and equipping the green drops in our run through Makeb, because we would be much better off than we are now.

 

If the goal of the PVP patches were to level the playing field, then 2.0 and this most recent patch failed. The playing field is no longer level. There is a significant slope to the field, and it is all uphill if you are a dedicated pvp'er, because your gear has been rendered BTN. The new patch rewards those non-pvp focused toons and severely penalizes the pvp-focused toons.

I also agree. I don't mind the new tiers. I look forward to grinding them. I didn't mind when EWH made my old gear yesterday's gear; I'm going to PvP anyway. I'm not threatened if the field is periodically leveled to allow easier entrance -- that just means more PvPers and more PvP. I also don't mind the PvE'er getting bolstered so he's not a liability to himself and his team.

It's that my min/maxed and augmented EWH got turned to garbage overnight that bothers me. That and the reduced time to kill.

I think you're trying to cuddle the broken content too much, and I'll leave it at that.

And I think the constant "Why wasn't this fixed before Live!?!?!?", while a valid complaint, isn't really productive anymore as far as the 2.0 bolster changes are concerned, and also that none of this will matter once we are all at least full Partisan (hey, in America, everyone is already fully partisan!)

Edited for clarity. Yeesh.

And I think the constant "Why wasn't this fixed before Live!?!?!?", while a valid complaint, isn't really productive anymore, and also that none of this will matter once we are all at least full Partisan (hey, in America, everyone is already fully partisan!)

It is when it happens for n* times and we still sub.

I can have full Par. Are they going to get serious and announce something that stands?

And I think the constant "Why wasn't this fixed before Live!?!?!?", while a valid complaint, isn't really productive anymore, and also that none of this will matter once we are all at least full Partisan (hey, in America, everyone is already fully partisan!)

Wrong, totally Fing wrong, couldn't be more wrong if you tried. This is the monumental, colossal mistake that THEY KEEP MAKING!!! This is soooooo not the first time the testers have pointed out broken mechanics/systems while on the PTS and yet the fail systems make it into live. This dev team deserves this criticism and more, because its a mistake they make habitually.

My question to BioWare is, will the best PvP gear (Conqueror, rating 154) be better then (Underworld, Rating 168) in Warzones? Its seems like wearing full 168 gear will come short of 400 expertise to full PvP gear with bolster, however you gain 500-700 Mainstat/endurance and alot of secondary stat in PvP.

BW; got any response?

Were you having a lot of open world battles and events while you were leveling to max level, or did you wait until max level and getting your endgame pvp gear to do that?

 

I think people are just having trouble letting go of their now-obsolete level 50 gear (sweet lemon). Or maybe the problem is that, while WH and EWH gear is obsolete, the level 50 PvE gear is still pretty viable for a lot of level 55 content (sour grapes).

I have (had) full 63 gear as it was Larry. My PvE stuff is STILL better because of the stupid way they "converted" armorings in EWH gear.

Where I have "trouble" with this is in how Makeb is designed. At level 52, I went up against a level 55 Sniper who killed me over...and over...but it was a good fight that I kept coming back to. The ONLY reason he didn't pound me into the dirt (more) was the expertise on my EWH gear. Paths DO cross on Makeb and this removal of Expertise from our older gear screws every player who has a similar encounter to mine. Open World PvP, while rare, DOES still happen. This HURTS "organic" open world PvP...and that sucks imo.

And I think the constant "Why wasn't this fixed before Live!?!?!?", while a valid complaint, isn't really productive anymore

I don't think anyone is trying to be productive, players are simply using the PvP forum as a platform to voice their dismay, which is a complete normal ritual on MMO forums since forever. Players have a legitimate reason to be frothing on the forums atm, the development team has released a garbage update that literally makes PvP unenjoyable (coupled with other mass failings in the update), and for me personally I'm tired of seeing PvP players walk away from the game. I can handle a bug here and there, or perhaps a broken something that isn't game-breaking. But when a company/game intentionally releases broken content to fulfill a timetable at the expense of quality assurance, many will take issue with that and MMO's are no different. I'll save the productive chatter when I see productive content via PvP gameplay.

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

That is the worst reply I have ever read. How can you have not known this on PTS? This is totally unacceptable, we spent months grinding this gear, plenty of us enjoy the little world pvp we get now you turn our PvP gear into PvE gear. I have spread this gear over my companions so they are now all useless in world pvp as well, did you even consider that part?! You break the gear because you introduced a flawed and incompatible system. Why should we get Conqueror gear when you may ruin it in a few months also. You have lost our trust and most of our subs.

Unacceptable.

Actually, it's about time that Expertise was eliminated in the Open World altogether. Players wearing PvP gear totally overwhelming PvE players in the Open World environment who are doing PvE missions should never have been allowed in the first place.

Expertise should only work in WarZones. In the Open World, it should be a balanced playing field so everyone has a chance to enjoy the combat versus PvPers descending for a giggling gank-fest on players performing PvE quests in what is, basically, the PvE environment.

There should be PvP in the Open World - that has proven fun when appropriately geared players clash. Expertise gives a gravely unfair advantage (especially when much of the Open World PvP is exp-geared PvPers ganking players 10 - 20 levels below them).

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

One word....... FARCE!

I have (had) full 63 gear as it was Larry. My PvE stuff is STILL better because of the stupid way they "converted" armorings in EWH gear.

 

Where I have "trouble" with this is in how Makeb is designed. At level 52, I went up against a level 55 Sniper who killed me over...and over...but it was a good fight that I kept coming back to. The ONLY reason he didn't pound me into the dirt (more) was the expertise on my EWH gear. Paths DO cross on Makeb and this removal of Expertise from our older gear screws every player who has a similar encounter to mine. Open World PvP, while rare, DOES still happen. This HURTS "organic" open world PvP...and that sucks imo.

Well, I didn't scrutinize my stats that closely, but if you had, say, High Aim, Low Endurance armoring and that was reversed in the conversion, yeah that's lame.

As for the situation you describe, it doesn't sound any different from a level 50 with pvp gear running into a level 47 on Corellia. If that guy in your story had been level 54 instead of level 55, he wouldn't have had much of a gear advantage at all, right?

I don't think anyone is trying to be productive, players are simply using the PvP forum as a platform to voice their dismay, which is a complete normal ritual on MMO forums since forever. Players have a legitimate reason to be frothing on the forums atm, the development team has released a garbage update that literally makes PvP unenjoyable (coupled with other mass failings in the update), and for me personally I'm tired of seeing PvP players walk away from the game. I can handle a bug here and there, or perhaps a broken something that isn't game-breaking. But when a company/game intentionally releases broken content to fulfill a timetable at the expense of quality assurance, many will take issue with that and MMO's are no different. I'll save the productive chatter when I see productive content via PvP gameplay.

I guess I can't disagree with any of this. But you're upset for all the right reasons. The people who are stamping their feet that their gear isn't endgame-viable any more, after an expansion, are really the ones driving me nuts.

Even better with bolster EWH belt and Bracers > Partisan

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627333

Bolster makes level 50 gear without expertise better than level 55 with expertise

The people who are stamping their feet that their gear isn't endgame-viable any more, after an expansion, are really the ones driving me nuts.

I agree. Those posts are worthless and carry no weight due to a new level cap. The real and only arguments/complaints need to be about 55 WZs/RWZs bolster. It needs to go.

That is the worst reply I have ever read. How can you have not known this on PTS? This is totally unacceptable, we spent months grinding this gear, plenty of us enjoy the little world pvp we get now you turn our PvP gear into PvE gear. I have spread this gear over my companions so they are now all useless in world pvp as well, did you even consider that part?! You break the gear because you introduced a flawed and incompatible system. Why should we get Conqueror gear when you may ruin it in a few months also. You have lost our trust and most of our subs.

Seriousely do you believe that a lot of software products exist in the market with this irresponsible behavior?

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

Yeah the majority of pvp happens in Warzones, and gear is obtained in Warzones because YOU refuse to give us any options whatsoever to actually engage in Open World.

Removing expertise from WH/EWH gear wasn't part of the original intent, and to stand here today and say "There was no other way" is nothing short of amateurish. OF COURSE there are other ways - you just don't wanna consider those options, because you will refuse to admit that your new "Bolster" is a complete and utter disastrous failure.

Instead of bandaiding you broken and allready failed bolster - remove, rework and reimplement. Do it right.

And btw, when can we expect more warzones and pvp content? You know, the stuff you announced in the past we could expect to occur on a regular basis?

Well, I didn't scrutinize my stats that closely, but if you had, say, High Aim, Low Endurance armoring and that was reversed in the conversion, yeah that's lame.

 

As for the situation you describe, it doesn't sound any different from a level 50 with pvp gear running into a level 47 on Corellia. If that guy in your story had been level 54 instead of level 55, he wouldn't have had much of a gear advantage at all, right?

 

I guess I can't disagree with any of this. But you're upset for all the right reasons. The people who are stamping their feet that their gear isn't endgame-viable any more, after an expansion, are really the ones driving me nuts.

Actually, that's exactly what they did. My PvE gear was Resolve armorings (high Aim, lower End) and they converted to Commando Armorings (lower Aim, higher End).

The reason I feel Makeb is different is this:

Makeb is a leveling planet. True, a 50 could gank a 25 anywhere prior to this, but 50's were given their individual "daily" areas prior to this. Makeb combines players leveling as low as 47, with higher level characters who are doing daily missions between WZ's. Those 55's who are bored, waiting for a queue to pop, will not hesitate to pop a couple lowbies as they run around clicking things. Makeb will encourage the WRONG kind of "organic" PvP imo.

How about this?

PvE gear is buffed (or debuffed) somewhere between entry and mid level PvP gear in WZs. Only allow a modest gap in stats between entry and top level PvP gear. PvP gear is left as is since expertise is worthless in raids. Done...

I guess I can't disagree with any of this. But you're upset for all the right reasons. The people who are stamping their feet that their gear isn't endgame-viable any more, after an expansion, are really the ones driving me nuts.

Valid point. I keep forgetting the lower end gear is not supposed to have that much expertise. I think the bolster issue is what I'm having the issue with, which directly results in the poor development aspect of this team. I understand constant bombardment doesn't move things in a positive direction, but accountability needs to be addressed. I'm tired of seeing issues reported on PTS ignored, just so they can keep that timeline of updates on schedule. Either way the development team has ruined my PvP experiene for the time being, as they have done a few times before, and just getting tired of it.

Valid point. I keep forgetting the lower end gear is not supposed to have that much expertise. I think the bolster issue is what I'm having the issue with, which directly results in the poor development aspect of this team. I understand constant bombardment doesn't move things in a positive direction, but accountability needs to be addressed. I'm tired of seeing issues reported on PTS ignored, just so they can keep that timeline of updates on schedule. Either way the development team has ruined my PvP experiene for the time being, as they have done a few times before, and just getting tired of it.

I don't know if in Bioware happens what it in all other software companies doesn't, but the developers do not deside the release.

Valid point. I keep forgetting the lower end gear is not supposed to have that much expertise. I think the bolster issue is what I'm having the issue with, which directly results in the poor development aspect of this team. I understand constant bombardment doesn't move things in a positive direction, but accountability needs to be addressed. I'm tired of seeing issues reported on PTS ignored, just so they can keep that timeline of updates on schedule. Either way the development team has ruined my PvP experiene for the time being, as they have done a few times before, and just getting tired of it.

Poor development aspect of this team?

That's a bit of an understatement, don't you think?

If it was up to me, everyone involved from the development to the release of this monstrosity of a pvp update should be shown the door.

They should just thank their lucky stars it's not up to me.

Actually, it's about time that Expertise was eliminated in the Open World altogether. Players wearing PvP gear totally overwhelming PvE players in the Open World environment who are doing PvE missions should never have been allowed in the first place.

 

Expertise should only work in WarZones. In the Open World, it should be a balanced playing field so everyone has a chance to enjoy the combat versus PvPers descending for a giggling gank-fest on players performing PvE quests in what is, basically, the PvE environment.

 

There should be PvP in the Open World - that has proven fun when appropriately geared players clash. Expertise gives a gravely unfair advantage (especially when much of the Open World PvP is exp-geared PvPers ganking players 10 - 20 levels below them).

The problem here is that expertise was not entirely eliminated from the open world...only that on WH/EWH gear. So for those that are 55 and have the new PVP gear (or the older BM/Recruit gear), they will be able to owpvp with gear that has expertise...totally overwhelming those with only pve gear.

Basically, since Im on a pvp server, what I have to do now to play is to equip all my old pvp gear which still has expertise (combination BM and Recruit) when questing in the open world, then I have in my inventory a full set of 140 pve gear, which I put on when going into a Heroic instance, flashpoints or pvp WZs. Once I reach 55 then I can get the Partisan and start using that to quest in the open world.

But this is just a crazy work around. The problem at the core of all this is Expertise...it was a horrible idea from the beginning and since launch people have been calling for its removal. If they remove Expertise all together, from everything, and then level out the pvp gear with the pve gear, so each tier is the same, then voila! All is solved. No bolster would be necessary in WZs to compensate for pve gear that does not have it. But I'm not sure BW is willing to accept that they messed up from the beginning and are willing to make such drastic a change. Having said this, the current system is absolutely absurd and unsustainable.

I don't know if in Bioware happens what it in all other software companies doesn't, but the developers do not deside the release.

I never said the Developers decide when updates are released.

Basically, since Im on a pvp server, what I have to do now to play is to equip all my old pvp gear which still has expertise (combination BM and Recruit) when questing in the open world,

Yes! I've been seriously considering doing this. I saved all of my BM sorc healer mods, thinking I would slap them into legacy gear later to give some future sage toon a pvp head start, but maybe this is better for them. Perhaps dropping them into a cheap cartel suit is and giving it back to my main toon is the answer.

What's really laughable is that Ashara Zavros, my companion character, who is in champion gear, has more expertise than my EWH sorc.

I never said the Developers decide when updates are released.

The developers made the bolster in PTS. Where should have remained.

Actually, it's about time that Expertise was eliminated in the Open World altogether. Players wearing PvP gear totally overwhelming PvE players in the Open World environment who are doing PvE missions should never have been allowed in the first place.

 

Expertise should only work in WarZones. In the Open World, it should be a balanced playing field so everyone has a chance to enjoy the combat versus PvPers descending for a giggling gank-fest on players performing PvE quests in what is, basically, the PvE environment.

 

There should be PvP in the Open World - that has proven fun when appropriately geared players clash. Expertise gives a gravely unfair advantage (especially when much of the Open World PvP is exp-geared PvPers ganking players 10 - 20 levels below them).

The clear and obvious problem with this is PVE gear has monstrously better stats. Expertise must work in open world to cover the stat difference. The problem with that is with the new expertise change, the pve geared player is going to get molested regardless of either player's skill or lack thereof.