Except for the fact that no gear in the game has a lot of power. It's a rare stat and it's very good for annihilation as well. Carnage and annihilation both have auto-crit abilities and both scale about the same with stats. Unlike WoW there is no way to get the stats you want by simply regemming. Power/Surge is something you'll need to struggle to get. I already posted how I conducted my tests. I didn't "race someone" because I am aware how stupid and inaccurate that would be.

Who cares about all this off-topic nonsense, can anyone confirm the OP's original topic, of the Ataru form proc not working from the outer part of melee range on a large mob? If it is indeed bugged, that's a pretty serious bug.

 

I'll do some testing on my Sentinel tonight.

Yes it is bugged. There's not much to discuss about the actual bug since the OP pretty much covered it. We're discussing the viability of the Carnage spec as a whole since this bug just makes it a poor choice in Ops where the majority of bosses have gigantic hitboxes.

Except for the fact that no gear in the game has a lot of power. It's a rare stat and it's very good for annihilation as well. Carnage and annihilation both have auto-crit abilities and both scale about the same with stats. Unlike WoW there is no way to get the stats you want by simply regemming. Power/Surge is something you'll need to struggle to get. I already posted how I conducted my tests. I didn't "race someone" because I am aware how stupid and inaccurate that would be.

 

Actually you can completely change the stat on some armor by replacing the enhancement (i do this for my champion gear). I changed over about 120 accuracy on my chest boots and legs for Power,Crit, and Surge enhancements(i know im trading a 24 rating enhancement for a 22) but now im not getting anymore useless accuracy as Carnage. I saw my average Force Scream crit go from 2300 to 2600 and Massacres hit for about 100-150 more. And i still dont miss unless im up against a Tank.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AcaciaDragon

I'd still like to see said proof of Annihilation being the end-all be-all DPS tree. Or is it just a "feeling?"

 

I consider myself one of those "good" Marauders and, after playing both Annihilation and Carnage I've found them both to be on-par in PvE with Rage feeling slightly weaker.

 

if you were good at the class, you would know. Its not a "feeling" but when an annihilation marauder in the exact same gear with exact same player can kill something is a much shorter time then carnage, logic dictates it does more damage.

 

 

Carnage is built around a 6 second debuff, annihilation is not it can also do damage while not on target. Carnage also has many wasted talents when it comes to raiding. For instance "Overwhelm" it sounds good and everything 2 points to root your ravage target, however it does not work on bosses, and if you play correctly you won't ravage when you know the target is gonna move 2 wasted points, "Narrowed Hatred" it is +3% to hit, sounds great, but atrau forms does that as well, and our teir gear is littered with accuracy, you have to basicaly steal other people gear to re-mod everything to be able to make use of the talented hit, 3 more points wasted or you burden you raid with an excess of states and much slower gearing up.

 

 

Annihilation never has "burst" moments like Carnage however in a raid situation nothing is better then consistancy, and no spec in the game right now can provide more consistant damage then Annihialtion.

 

Some people have been play this class for 8+ months, you might want to listen to people who have more experiance with the class then you can even get before the fall. Carnage used to be closer to Annihilation, but they changed that in the beta when they made Force scream a 9 second talented cooldown instead of 6 second.

 

That is just in damage, now in Utility no class in the game comes close to an annihilation marauder in a raid. With a 12 second leap and 6 second hard interrupt you can keep pretty much any mob from ever casting anything, no other class can solo lock down a mob. Take the 2 "bodyguards" in Kraggas palace, one is a "tank" the other is a "healer" that fight is stupid easy with a smart marauder because a smart marauder can take the healer out of the fight and leave everyone else to kill the "tank" with rotating saber ward, cloack of pain obsfucate, you can actually tank him because he doesn't do much damage and hes busy trying to heal.

 

Carnage is just inferior to Annihlation in ever way possible for PvE.

Except for the fact that no gear in the game has a lot of power. It's a rare stat and it's very good for annihilation as well. Carnage and annihilation both have auto-crit abilities and both scale about the same with stats. Unlike WoW there is no way to get the stats you want by simply regemming. Power/Surge is something you'll need to struggle to get. I already posted how I conducted my tests. I didn't "race someone" because I am aware how stupid and inaccurate that would be.

 

i have worked my gear right now to only have a 25% chance to crit in Columi gear and i have over 500 power. My dealdy saber dots crit for well over 1500 damage.

 

 

Annihilation doesn't rely on crit like so many think, remember your dots are your major source of overall damage, and they get 15% more crit due to talents, so 25% crit + 5% IA buff and 15% talent crit buff puts dots at a 45% chance to crit.

 

Power is the best stat you can get next to Strength provided you have the accuracy you need.

Actually you can completely change the stat on some armor by replacing the enhancement (i do this for my champion gear).

 

I already know that. Everyone learns that at level 10. I was talking about the availability of higher tier mods with Power/Surge rating.

 

I changed over about 120 accuracy on my chest boots and legs for Power,Crit, and Surge enhancements(i know im trading a 24 rating enhancement for a 22) but now im not getting anymore useless accuracy as Carnage.

 

I'm not 100% sure that's the right choice but nobody knows what accuracy is good for right now. I'm just extremely opposed to the idea that the devs would give us a ridiculous amount of accuracy while leaving it a useless stat.

 

 

I saw my average Force Scream crit go from 2300 to 2600 and Massacres hit for about 100-150 more. And i still dont miss unless im up against a Tank.

 

...WHAT?!? You were talking about PvP this whole time? That's something you should have mentioned in your first post. I was talking about PvE for all the previous posts. You can't expect people to know you suddenly switched to talking about PvP if you don't mention it.

 

I'm really confused as to what the heck you're talking about in your posts now that you mentioned that "I don't miss unless I'm up against a tank" bit.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

I already know that. Everyone learns that at level 10. I was talking about the availability of higher tier mods with Power/Surge rating.

 

 

 

I'm not 100% sure that's the right choice but nobody knows what accuracy is good for right now. I'm just extremely opposed to the idea that the devs would give us a ridiculous amount of accuracy while leaving it a useless stat.

 

 

 

 

...WHAT?!? You were talking about PvP this whole time? That's something you should have mentioned in your first post. I was talking about PvE for all the previous posts. You can't expect people to know you suddenly switched to talking about PvP if you don't mention it.

 

I'm really confused as to what the heck you're talking about in your posts now that you mentioned that "I don't miss unless I'm up against a tank" bit.

 

The numbers are the same against a mob or a real player. Stats between pve and pvp gear are as well, except one has lower strength(20-30) which we make up with in expertise in pvp. The numbers i can output are pretty close to the same whether i pvp or do my dailies.

 

You may be extremely opposed to it, but they only made the bare minimum number of gear sets, mara are pure dps, so we get 1 set for 3 specs, 3 specs that are very different,(Juggs have 2, one for each role, tank and dps) so naturally its safe to say the stat priorities are different. And im sure they wanted to make sure the other 2 specs had the minimum accuracy needed for there specs, leaving Carnage high and dry(why i strongly believe we, Carnage MArauders, are at least 3% over the accuracy cap with our gear and why Aturu form gives us another 3% so we can spec out of the accuracy talent at higher levels if need be).

 

Also, BW forgot to add stats to all high end relics, so im sure theyve made more than a few mistakes on gear that people havent caught yet(you notice that our tier bracers only have 10 crit or power on them?)

if you were good at the class, you would know. Its not a "feeling" but when an annihilation marauder in the exact same gear with exact same player can kill something is a much shorter time then carnage, logic dictates it does more damage.

 

 

Carnage is built around a 6 second debuff, annihilation is not it can also do damage while not on target. Carnage also has many wasted talents when it comes to raiding. For instance "Overwhelm" it sounds good and everything 2 points to root your ravage target, however it does not work on bosses, and if you play correctly you won't ravage when you know the target is gonna move 2 wasted points, "Narrowed Hatred" it is +3% to hit, sounds great, but atrau forms does that as well, and our teir gear is littered with accuracy, you have to basicaly steal other people gear to re-mod everything to be able to make use of the talented hit, 3 more points wasted or you burden you raid with an excess of states and much slower gearing up.

 

 

Annihilation never has "burst" moments like Carnage however in a raid situation nothing is better then consistancy, and no spec in the game right now can provide more consistant damage then Annihialtion.

 

Some people have been play this class for 8+ months, you might want to listen to people who have more experiance with the class then you can even get before the fall. Carnage used to be closer to Annihilation, but they changed that in the beta when they made Force scream a 9 second talented cooldown instead of 6 second.

 

That is just in damage, now in Utility no class in the game comes close to an annihilation marauder in a raid. With a 12 second leap and 6 second hard interrupt you can keep pretty much any mob from ever casting anything, no other class can solo lock down a mob. Take the 2 "bodyguards" in Kraggas palace, one is a "tank" the other is a "healer" that fight is stupid easy with a smart marauder because a smart marauder can take the healer out of the fight and leave everyone else to kill the "tank" with rotating saber ward, cloack of pain obsfucate, you can actually tank him because he doesn't do much damage and hes busy trying to heal.

 

Carnage is just inferior to Annihlation in ever way possible for PvE.

 

Ive read past comments from you in other threads and have little respect for what you say. 8+ months of playing this class means diddly squat when things constantly change in beta. The last 2 months are about all that matters, now, massive amounts of players are playing instead of the select few before who think they are better than everyone else because they were apart of the RNG made to select applicants.

 

Rage has more unsustained damage than the 3, Carnage is pretty constant and sustained, Force scream may be a big move but Massacre can crit up to what tends to be a base amount for Force Scream crits and i use that anywhere between 3-5 times in between Screams. Just because we have no set rotation doesnt mean we have no sustained dps.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AcaciaDragon

Ive read past comments from you in other threads and have little respect for what you say. 8+ months of playing this class means diddly squat when things constantly change in beta. The last 2 months are about all that matters, now, massive amounts of players are playing instead of the select few before who think they are better than everyone else because they were apart of the RNG made to select applicants.

 

Rage has more unsustained damage than the 3, Carnage is pretty constant and sustained, Force scream may be a big move but Massacre can crit up to what tends to be a base amount for Force Scream crits and i use that anywhere between 3-5 times in between Screams. Just because we have no set rotation doesnt mean we have no sustained dps.

 

lol you think people will take you seriously when you say Rage has sustained damage when compared to Carnage much less Annihilation??

 

Sorry but no-one will respect anything you say with that kind of post. Range is only a gimmick spec and only good damage when you have 5 people in your smash. Its GARBAGE for any type of PvE and it even falls behind in PvP when you fight someone with the ability to out think a pet rock.

lol you think people will take you seriously when you say Rage has sustained damage when compared to Carnage much less Annihilation??

 

Sorry but no-one will respect anything you say with that kind of post. Range is only a gimmick spec and only good damage when you have 5 people in your smash. Its GARBAGE for any type of PvE and it even falls behind in PvP when you fight someone with the ability to out think a pet rock.

 

Read my post again. I said UNSUSTAINED. I know its the worst, thats why i brought it up. You said Carnage has some unsustained damage and it was only obivous to compare Carnage with Rage to give you an example of unsuistained.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AcaciaDragon

Acacia I've read over your posts and a lot of what you're saying gives me the impression that you're a casual player and you aren't looking at things in an Ops/Hardcore perspective. What you've posted so far has been a lot of the "gut feeling" crap I mentioned in an earlier post. You mention DAILIES? Why in the world would anyone optimize themselves for dailies when they can be done by a fresh 50? Unless you have evidence to show why you think Carnage is superior your posts have no weight.

 

A word about stat priority...

 

Carnage and Annihilation specs both have extremely similar forms of damage. They both have approximately the same portion of damage auto-crit. They both have approximately the same portion of their damage benefit from +30% crit damage. They both have similar portions of damage that fall under force/internal damage that isn't affected by armor. It is extremely likely that when we're able to properly analyze stats for each spec using spreadsheets and simulators we will get fairly similar weights for each spec.

 

 

Note: You also seem to be over-valuing power greatly. The difference from when I had 425 power and 380 crit is minor when compared to my current 450 crit(Grr Rakata's Acc/Crit mods...) and 350 power. I only lost around 15 bonus damage to my main hand and gained a little over 2% crit. Napkin math shows a fairly equivalent trade although admittedly power is very slightly better for me at this point.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

Acacia I've read over your posts and a lot of what you're saying gives me the impression that you're a casual player and you aren't looking at things in an Ops/Hardcore perspective. What you've posted so far has been a lot of the "gut feeling" crap I mentioned in an earlier post. You mention DAILIES? Why in the world would anyone optimize themselves for dailies when they can be done by a fresh 50? Unless you have evidence to show why you think Carnage is superior your posts have no weight.

 

A word about stat priority...

 

Carnage and Annihilation specs both have extremely similar forms of damage. They both have approximately the same portion of damage auto-crit. They both have approximately the same portion of their damage benefit from +30% crit damage. They both have similar portions of damage that fall under force/internal damage that isn't affected by armor. It is extremely likely that when we're able to properly analyze stats for each spec using spreadsheets and simulators we will get fairly similar weights for each spec.

 

 

Note: You also seem to be over-valuing power greatly. The difference from when I had 425 power and 380 crit is minor when compared to my current 450 crit(Grr Rakata's Acc/Crit mods...) and 350 power. I only lost around 15 bonus damage to my main hand and gained a little over 2% crit. Napkin math shows a fairly equivalent trade although admittedly power is very slightly better for me at this point.

 

no i am not over valuing power. Power increses all damage crit included, so your crits hit harder which make the bonus damage from them even greater. Power is second only to strength in terms of straight damage gain.

 

 

no matter how you ever look at it 1% damage will ALWAYS AND FOREVER be a bigger upgrade then 1% crit

Unless 1% crit inreases damage by 1.2%.

Acacia I've read over your posts and a lot of what you're saying gives me the impression that you're a casual player and you aren't looking at things in an Ops/Hardcore perspective. What you've posted so far has been a lot of the "gut feeling" crap I mentioned in an earlier post. You mention DAILIES? Why in the world would anyone optimize themselves for dailies when they can be done by a fresh 50? Unless you have evidence to show why you think Carnage is superior your posts have no weight.

 

A word about stat priority...

 

Carnage and Annihilation specs both have extremely similar forms of damage. They both have approximately the same portion of damage auto-crit. They both have approximately the same portion of their damage benefit from +30% crit damage. They both have similar portions of damage that fall under force/internal damage that isn't affected by armor. It is extremely likely that when we're able to properly analyze stats for each spec using spreadsheets and simulators we will get fairly similar weights for each spec.

 

 

Note: You also seem to be over-valuing power greatly. The difference from when I had 425 power and 380 crit is minor when compared to my current 450 crit(Grr Rakata's Acc/Crit mods...) and 350 power. I only lost around 15 bonus damage to my main hand and gained a little over 2% crit. Napkin math shows a fairly equivalent trade although admittedly power is very slightly better for me at this point.

 

This is where we will have to agree to disagree, like i explained before, crit is more important for annhilation as they have talents that directly help you get crits and benefit you when you get them. As Carnage I dont benefit as greatly from crit as no moves I have need to crit to grant me something. Force Scream is an insta crit i can control. This is why Power benefits me more. Im no longer trying to rely on crits but making sure when i do damage, its doing more per hit, than relying on per crit.

 

So Carnage and Annhilation do not have similar forms of damage as you proved earlier when you said annhilation did more dps than Carnage in your test.

this thread is getting heated..!!! man i love a good nerd war.

 

so basically what you guys are saying is that annihilation is not good and i should spec rage for end game ops?

 

but seriously, dont you guys think it would be more constructive to wait till a damage meter of some sorts is put in the game before you go all "im mr. leet know it all end game raider" on everybody? granted you guys are all probably 100x smarter than me in every aspect of life, but if there is no damage meter, wouldnt ALL of you not have any REAL facts to go by? recording videos and counting damage doesnt really mean a whole lot to me. but what do i know, im just a really really dumb casual player.

this thread is getting heated..!!! man i love a good nerd war.

 

so basically what you guys are saying is that annihilation is not good and i should spec rage for end game ops?

 

but seriously, dont you guys think it would be more constructive to wait till a damage meter of some sorts is put in the game before you go all "im mr. leet know it all end game raider" on everybody? granted you guys are all probably 100x smarter than me in every aspect of life, but if there is no damage meter, wouldnt ALL of you not have any REAL facts to go by? recording videos and counting damage doesnt really mean a whole lot to me. but what do i know, im just a really really dumb casual player.

 

Yeah but im impatient and would rather discuss it. I tend to learn more from open discussions than relying on meters.

We're not trading 1% damage for 1% crit unless you have a very strange gear setup with 126 rating weapons and far too much crit. In Columi gear you're trading something around MAYBE 20 damage at most for 2% crit. The 15-20 bonus damage is a lot less than 1% and the 2% crit is actually about the same in terms of DPS value even after taking into account power modifiers on attacks. Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri

Hey guys -

 

Thanks for this feedback. We will investigate this issue.

 

-Cameron

Yeah but im impatient and would rather discuss it. I tend to learn more from open discussions than relying on meters.

 

problem that i see is that if the open discussions dont have any factual information, youre not really learning much. discuss all you like, but ill wait till i have proof from damage meters or at least a combat log.

Unless 1% crit inreases damage by 1.2%.

 

it never will. by the math you need 100% crit damage and you would need to have over 50% chance to crit at the start to make it mathmatically possible.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Hizoka

I think everyone tends to forget that at least by the wording of the talent when in blood frenzy you increase the chance to crit by 100% not that you have a 100% chance to crit when you have blood frenzy up. I have at least once had blood frenzy up and not crit with force scream. However whats really starting to tune up my damage is pumping crit as much as I can not so much surge or power but crit. for my carnage build I am mostly focused on strength, crit and endurance, with any surge I can pour in as a fourth stat. Basically to me carnage is a crit build.

We're not trading 1% damage for 1% crit unless you have a very strange gear setup with 126 rating weapons and far too much crit. In Columi gear you're trading something around MAYBE 20 damage at most for 2% crit. The 15-20 bonus damage is a lot less than 1% and the 2% crit is actually about the same in terms of DPS value even after taking into account power modifiers on attacks.

 

its not just 20 weapon damage though thats what you do not see. Power itsel increases EVERYTHING including crit damage, crits only increase your chance to crit. so every time you do not crit you get nothing from it unlike power, surge is devauled even more because you must crit for surge to even be added to the equation.

 

 

Power will always be a better stat then crit unless you are sub 20% crit.

 

 

mathmatically something like crit will always have a diminishing return the more you get of it. A straight damage increase does not. I really do not feel like explaining all the math, but Crit is for people who like to see big numbers every now and again, power is for people who actually want to do solid damage ALL THE TIME.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Hizoka

This is where we will have to agree to disagree, like i explained before, crit is more important for annhilation as they have talents that directly help you get crits and benefit you when you get them. As Carnage I dont benefit as greatly from crit as no moves I have need to crit to grant me something. Force Scream is an insta crit i can control. This is why Power benefits me more. Im no longer trying to rely on crits but making sure when i do damage, its doing more per hit, than relying on per crit.

 

So Carnage and Annhilation do not have similar forms of damage as you proved earlier when you said annhilation did more dps than Carnage in your test.

 

There's a lot you're misunderstanding.

 

1. If a tree has talents that increase your chance to crit how does additional crit gain value? It doesn't. Talents like "Bleedout" which increases crit damage cause crit to gain value. Carnage has a similar talent.

 

2. If Carnage's insta-crit mechanic causes power to gain value then wouldn't Annihilation's insta-crit mechanic also cause power to gain value?

 

3. There is a difference between "forms of damage" and "amount of damage". I proved Annihilation does more DPS. They both have similar percentages of their damage come from similar sources. Force Scream and Ataru Form are Carnage's equivalent to Bleeds.

 

4. Both trees have a 30% crit damage talent(although Annihl's is broken). Both trees have force/internal damage that makes up a significant portion of their DPS(exact values are hard to know at this point). I don't understand why you think they have vastly different stat weights.

its not just 20 weapon damage though thats what you do not see. Power itsel increases EVERYTHING including crit damage, crits only increase your chance to crit. so every time you do not crit you get nothing from it unlike power, surge is devauled even more because you must crit for surge to even be added to the equation.

 

 

Power will always be a better stat then crit unless you are sub 20% crit.

 

 

mathmatically something like crit will always have a diminishing return the more you get of it. A straight damage increase does not. I really do not feel like explaining all the math, but Crit is for people who like to see big numbers every now and again, power is for people who actually want to do solid damage ALL THE TIME.

 

My guild's GM made a video pre-launch explaining theorycraft basics for Tormonger. Watch it. It's impossible to argue with you two when you can't even understand how things work. I'm not going to argue against your "feelings". It's becoming very tiring and I'm starting to not make sense as I try and explain the same thing 10 different ways hoping you somehow get it.

 

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tumri