Hopefully, they will give us similar details when they announce the patch that's going to include SGR's, or at the very least, shortly after. If this is the case though, my hope of them coming with Makeb is draining rapidly, as much of what that particular content-expansion includes has already been revealed.

 

It's the 27th of November, there's no chance in hell that Makeb/SGRA's are coming out this year. Bioware hasn't even taken the time to say "Sorry, due to several changes around the studio post launch, Mr. Erickson's statement that SGRA's/new story content would be out this year is no longer valid", which is just... ugh.

Well, I don't think it's acceptable (I have characters I want to play as well but must wait for more information on this).

 

I was just pointing out that discrimination isn't always explicit and done with malicious intent.

 

True. And while I don't know if it is malicious or not (discrimination is really always malicious whether it is done passively or aggressively far as I am concerned) there is certainly intent. Otherwise the content would have been there.

 

I honestly feel bad for all the folks that stuck around all these months waiting on BW to man up. Everyone would have been better from the start if BW had just been honest. As is usually the case in most circumstances, honesty would have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble. Well I guess EA wouldn't have been better off, when you are bleeding subs the way this game was trying to hold on to every last one possible is pretty important I guess.

As DarthHater says, BioWare is pretty bad at keeping secrets, everything leaks well before they announce it.

I also think BioWare is quite transparent in what they're working on. If they want to release information, then they release information, they generally release what we already know. When they're working on something they pick to publish the question and answer "we cannot comment at this time". When they're not working on something they don't pick the question. We know months in advance what is coming up, because they're working towards it. And answer community questions with no comment accordingly.

 

Makeb is probably coming this year. But in all probability it will be just Makeb, no class story content. And to BW that is story content, it's not class story content, but group story content, but it is still story content. I also expect we'll see the Cathar this year, probably with Makeb. They're going to want to release this content during the Holiday Season, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were Holiday Deals coming as well. A good way to get those F2Pers to buy some Coins. They've also said something about doing Races again, this is probably a hint at Holiday Races, it's been done so many times before in other MMOs and social games, I expect to see it here as well.

 

I don't expect SGRs soon, but I hope I'm wrong.

As DarthHater says, BioWare is pretty bad at keeping secrets, everything leaks well before they announce it.

I also think BioWare is quite transparent in what they're working on. If they want to release information, then they release information, they generally release what we already know. When they're working on something they pick to publish the question and answer "we cannot comment at this time". When they're not working on something they don't pick the question. We know months in advance what is coming up, because they're working towards it. And answer community questions with no comment accordingly.

 

That does not make me feel better about this :/ Unless we run with the belief that Bioware:Austin isn't the "real" Bioware, because the "real" Bioware is off doing Dragon Age, which also doesn't bode well as we're relying on the "real" Bioware to be the one producing the SGRA content.

That does not make me feel better about this :/ Unless we run with the belief that Bioware:Austin isn't the "real" Bioware, because the "real" Bioware is off doing Dragon Age, which also doesn't bode well as we're relying on the "real" Bioware to be the one producing the SGRA content.

 

Not too mention they are also working on the new Mass Effect series ! Bioware is really busy atm.

 

To be honest , I thought by now that this would have already been put in with them talking about it as early as a month after the game went live .

Not to stir the pot or hark on Bioware....

That is what SGR means. "Same Gender Romance".

 

But like the poster a few posts before. I am quickly losing hope. With the two Doctor's gone and most of the people who made this game, it just isn't Bioware anymore. It's just EA. And I really don't want to say this. I don't want to be defeatist, but I don't think we are going to get the SGR's. There has been little in the way of mentioning anything save for the monotonous PR spin of "We can't comment on that at this time." I've tried to see it from EA's side. I just can't anymore. I've held off on my Sith Inquisitor because I want to romance Ashara. I want to romance Kira. But I'm really afraid that's not going to happen at this rate.

Not too mention they are also working on the new Mass Effect series ! Bioware is really busy atm.

 

To be honest , I thought by now that this would have already been put in with them talking about it as early as a month after the game went live .

Not to stir the pot or hark on Bioware....

 

Actually the first mention they were thinking about doing SGRA content was about 6 months prior to launch. Or a good year and a half ago.

Actually the first mention they were thinking about doing SGRA content was about 6 months prior to launch. Or a good year and a half ago.

 

Seems to have been a fleeting thought.

There are two types of discrimination, active and passive. Active discrimination is what you see daily and notice. The anti-gay commentary of Dan Cathy (Chick-fil-a), the purveyors of "gay conversion therapy," and the anti-marriage groups such as NOM are higher profile precisely because they are vocal and active. Passive discrimination is simply taking no action and doing nothing (e.g. community managers regurgitating a thread that the higher ups are IGNORING or refusing to make any progress reports about). Both are bad and both are discriminatory.

 

Talking about it makes us feel better, but it is ultimately meaningless. It allows the publisher and community managers to SAY they are open to discussion, covering their respective rear ends from the worst of community blowback. In effect it allows them to prolong the development curve without consequences they truly understand. The community has two options:

 

1. Quit the game, cancel subscriptions and not reward the company for its patent dishonesty about this matter (financial consequences).

 

2. Organize an active effort to publicize their broken promises through a combination of going to these developer summits and getting everyone to ask the same question until they realize they cannot push off answering the question in detail any longer and focused actions that expose the company to bad publicity (e.g. a major letter writing campaign to the main stream gaming press). (public embarassment)

 

If this means so much to us, why are we allowing ourselves to be herded into an eternal "waiting area"? EA/BW has dropped the publicity ball so often I simply do not trust them to keep their half-baked promises. The bitter truth is they do not intend to add SGRAs at this late a date in game development, they are just playing out the string until the development curve renders this whole thread moot.

 

Frankly, it's embarassing when the most cutting edge company in PC game development becomes timid after initially developing a great reputation of addressing LGBT issues.

 

JC

Edited November 28, 2012 by JCisneros

I agree JC, I don't think BW ever intended to add this content. I suggested months ago organizing some kind of push to get the word out about this issue but I don't think the gaming press would be all that sympathetic. We would likely have to seek out GLBT friendly organizations with a public presence to help bring light to the situation. Short of that it is pretty obvious BW is more than content to continue doing and saying nothing till the issue simply fades away.

2. Organize an active effort to publicize their broken promises through a combination of going to these developer summits and getting everyone to ask the same question until they realize they cannot push off answering the question in detail any longer and focused actions that expose the company to bad publicity (e.g. a major letter writing campaign to the main stream gaming press). (public embarassment)

 

As much as I would like to contact magazines and blogs about this, the evidence we have is very little. We have Stephen Reid's comments, Daniel Erickson's comments and Gabe Amatengelo's comments, but none of those have been transcribed to this site officially - both Mr. Erickson's and Mr. Amatengelo's comments exist in video form, yes, but Mr. Reid's comments have been removed with the removal of the beta forums, and thus all we have there are copy-pasta forms. Much of our belief in this content hinges on EA and Bioware's previous releases and their (very) public stances on LGBT persons and content. So, our position to gain anything credible in magazines and blog posts would be having to prove that EA/Bioawre's previous stances on LGBT content is applicable to this game (through the aforementioned comments), that the discussion of this content has been handled in a discriminatory manner and that, whether deliberately or through coincidental neglect, LGBT players (and LGBT ally players) have been discriminated against through no representation or meaningful engagement.

 

This would all also have to be presented in a manner which is detached and without emotive language (as much as one can muster when discussing possible discrimination), so that the key point is brought across, but without sounding like the people who want this content are being overly demanding.

 

Personally that's not something I feel I can do.

It is difficult Tatile. In real life I am an academic who studies the history of sexuality, put into simpler terms without giving you my full taxonomy, I am an LGBT historian who works on questions in the Medieval and Early Modern periods.

 

Perhaps the hardest thing to come to grips with is the fact that objectivity does not really exist. The best you can do as a scholar is to present the best argument you can while fairly presenting the other side's argument.

 

I am all for embarassing the hell out of EA/Bioware on this matter and effectively they SHOULD be ashamed of backtracking on presenting a world where both opposite sex attraction and same sex attraction actually happen. I went, in a span of two years from being a loyal BW customer to not being interested in giving them any of my hard earned money until they actually have the guts to address this issue openly. I do not count outdated press releases as evidence of their good intentions, I expect to be given actual evidence that they are in an actual physical development stage and are on a real timeline. The excuse that they use is that to prematurely release such information might harm their competitive advantage; what competitive advantage? You only gain a competitive advantage when you do something the other company is not doing. Developing a strong relationship with the LGBT community would foster loyalty and bring more money into BW. It might even force the other powers that be in the industry to make moves to equalize sexual orientation portrayals in future games.

 

I expect the community managers to read this thread and not dismiss it as a minoritarian thread. Just because the LGBT community is a minority does not mean it should not be respected and communicated with.

Edited November 28, 2012 by JCisneros

The Community Team doesn't read this thread, they just claim that they do.

 

For bringing this to public attention, I believe we've identified Kotaku and GamesIndustry.biz as potential first ports of call (Kotaku has covered SWTOR in the past and recently we had to correct a GamesIndustry article that incorrectly stated that SWTOR has same-sex options, which implies that that assumption is present in the game media community).

 

We could possibly contact Gawker, which does slightly more "niche" articles and, of course, The Penny Arcade Report, in consideration of the fact that they have run articles which look into the games industry and games industry reporting.

 

It's just a matter of collecting what evidence we have and then presenting that in an acceptable fashion :/

 

(Also, JC, your job sounds really interesting.)

The Community Team doesn't read this thread, they just claim that they do.

 

For bringing this to public attention, I believe we've identified Kotaku and GamesIndustry.biz as potential first ports of call (Kotaku has covered SWTOR in the past and recently we had to correct a GamesIndustry article that incorrectly stated that SWTOR has same-sex options, which implies that that assumption is present in the game media community).

 

We could possibly contact Gawker, which does slightly more "niche" articles and, of course, The Penny Arcade Report, in consideration of the fact that they have run articles which look into the games industry and games industry reporting.

 

It's just a matter of collecting what evidence we have and then presenting that in an acceptable fashion :/

 

(Also, JC, your job sounds really interesting.)

 

That has to be the first time I have ever had my job called "interesting."

 

I think the first step is to gather all of videos, youtube feeds, quotes and such over the past year +. Quotes from community managers, developers, senior developers and management would be highly useful in this process. Throughout the process we should have a set of goals. Just to get the ball rolling I will suggest one below and ask for feedback from the thread participants as to what we want as the LGBT community within the game environment.

 

1. Clearer communication and direct feedback (non-negotiable) - No trade secrets need be revealed for this to be practical. What we need is a statement of if indeed they are developing SGRA content and an approximate time frame to release of said content. Specifics, not generalities from the company are very important here. A release number would be desirable.

 

It is important when approaching these press sources to have a set of goals and a clear message as to what we see as potential solutions. We also should present reasonable soultions, nothing could be worse than to get attention and not at least have one or two workable solutions to suggest.

 

I set the ball rolling and I am now subscribed to this thread...

 

JC

Confirmation of this content still being "a thing" is, to me at least, our highest priority. We've had nothing since the Guild Summit (unless you count Mr. Amatengelo's confusion) and Bioware is not acknowledging the question is even relevant.

 

Secondly we have the more emotional, customer-interaction issue of Bioware's handling of this content (I don't know if this is an appropriate question, but it is important for consumer/company relations) and how the people who want this content feel they have been treated (i.e. Does Bioware think they have handled the discussion of this content and the queries from the community in a respectful and sensitive manner? This would be particularly interesting if you've seen Uluain's comments on how he felt the subject was being treated by the CommunitySupport squad on the forum at large.)

 

I guess another question that would be quite "big" in terms of equality and representation would be why Bioware did not feel the need to have this content ready for launch.

Even if BW hadn't made promises, they'd still be in the wrong for being exclusive. And I think that's reason enough to call for action. Of course some will immediately derail the convo by pressing to petition the entire gaming industry, but that is simply derailment. In this case we're asking EA/BW to be inclusive in their largest MMORPG. One that is a successor to RPGs that have been inclusive.

 

I'm all for stepping up the game. I'd also suggest getting RPers on board, and bringing this subject to the attention of all gamers by doing in game actions. If you're willing to work together on this, I'd suggest starting a FB group or page, or perhaps a shared Office Live notebook.

Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but even if we managed to drum up interest in this issue and got the word out and managed to put enough pressure on EA/BW to actually acknowledge this issue all I can see them doing is releasing another meaningless statement.

 

"blah blah blah... content still planned blah blah blah... writer lead time blah blah blah... time and money blah blah blah... will let you know when more information available"

 

For me personally BW's "word" wouldn't mean anything. Honestly I thought we made a pretty good effort back in Jan/Feb and got as much out of them as we ever will. The real time to effect change was back in beta, if we had organized then and gotten pressure applied maybe they would have been forced to change their stance and include the content.

 

The decision to exclude the content had already been made though and I don't see what BW has to gain at this point when all they have to do is continue ignoring us. Yes I personally want this content added to the game but I don't think we'll ever see it now no matter what we do. Still I support you all if you want to make the effort, I just think its a year too late to produce any tangible results.

 

The only real chance we ever have to actually see the content is if whomever made the decision to exclude this content and this section of the playerbase from the game is removed and someone specifically sympathetic to this cause is put in their place. I'd say the chances of that are rather small.

To your point on possible derailment, Fabiyun, and if we do form a sort-of Facebook... book (I don't have Facebook), it might be in our interests to point that if/when we can succeed in having an open discussion with EA/Bioware on this subject and bring SGRA's into SWTOR, that would form a precedent and a basis for launching further campaigns aimed at the games industry in general (and also the possibility of lending more firepower to non-LGBT movements, such as having POC protagonists and having more female protagonists in games and as the focus of games, rather than a mere palette choice).

To your point on possible derailment, Fabiyun, and if we do form a sort-of Facebook... book (I don't have Facebook), it might be in our interests to point that if/when we can succeed in having an open discussion with EA/Bioware on this subject and bring SGRA's into SWTOR, that would form a precedent and a basis for launching further campaigns aimed at the games industry in general (and also the possibility of lending more firepower to non-LGBT movements, such as having POC protagonists and having more female protagonists in games and as the focus of games, rather than a mere palette choice).

 

Indeed. And the inclusion of POC and sexism towards women are also big issues in the game industry. They all have to be tackled. What I also don't understand is why we can have regulation for media treating people equally, and why the game industry is not considered media and can simply ignore all the progress human rights advocates try to achieve.

 

As for the window of opportunity; we did put pressure on EA over a year ago. The forums exploded over this issue, threads were closed and reopened constantly, and the post limit was reached on a topic sometimes three or four times a day. There was also coverage on tornews, and on darth hater. And there was a petition at All Out going. GLAAD and Stonewall took notice. Some local media picked up on the issue. It was what made them put out a quick press note that said they'd include the content. But since there's hardly been any pressure. And that does make a little sense, you also have to give them some time to keep their promise. I do think however that that time has passed, and we've not seen any progress on this matter whatsoever. And I do think there will be organisations interested in this matter. If we can start a page/group somewhere, work together and work out a strategy of contacting partners and interest groups there should be a way to bring this back into the gaming and mass media.

 

The thing about getting attention on this issue though is mass. One can't do it alone, one can file a ticket, but that is just one ticket. If the discrimination office started getting in dozens of tickets in a matter of days, then they'll be interested to ask for clarification. If we're going to do something then it needs to be an organised effort, and targeting specific advocacy groups and media.

Not sure if anyone's noticed on Facebook, but the Star Wars: The Old Republic page just posted this question:

 

Have a question you would like to ask a Developer on our Livestream Q&A? Put it in the comments of this post and your question might be selected to be asked Live on the stream!

 

Three hours ago according to my feed, but I can't find the damn thing on their actual facebook page (it's probably there somewhere, stupid facebook).

 

Anyway, my answer was:

 

"Same Gender Romance Arcs, when - are we at least still on target for "this year"? How will they be implemented - will I need to start an entirely new character, or will they be open to level 50s who have gone through the entire conversation arc for the companion(s) in question?"

Not sure if anyone's noticed on Facebook, but the Star Wars: The Old Republic page just posted this question:

 

 

 

Three hours ago according to my feed, but I can't find the damn thing on their actual facebook page (it's probably there somewhere, stupid facebook).

 

Anyway, my answer was:

 

"Same Gender Romance Arcs, when - are we at least still on target for "this year"? How will they be implemented - will I need to start an entirely new character, or will they be open to level 50s who have gone through the entire conversation arc for the companion(s) in question?"

 

The Topic is in General, I asked the question on page 8 or 9.

I finally resubbed as an early birthday present to myself and figured I'd chime in on some stuff here. Been following the topic pretty much since I got the game earlier in the year and it's still disheartening to know that we don't have any news on the matter. I mean yeah as of now I only have one character but it frustrates me to no end to know I can't play her the way I want to because of the lack of SGR. I'm assuming unfortunately that if it is eventually brought in with existing companions, we'll have to start over. Would I mind playing the Agent story again with the possibility of romancing dear Watcher 2? Not really, but on principle alone that's pretty damn bothersome.

I have added my question(s) to the Live Stream 2 topic in General. My questions are on page 10 and I quote fabiyun's specific question about SGR's. I recommend we all add a question to it by quoting each other so they cannot say it was an isolated question.

 

~JC

Look, I'll concede that the initial non-inclusion of SGRAs can fall under the heading of discrimination, and likely does. That's no longer the issue. That stance was outed, railed against, and reversed. They've already taken the proper steps to reverse that discriminatory position. The only question now is one of continued discrimination, and whether that's what the silence on this issue constitutes.

 

I merely contend that we don't have proper evidence to conclude that it does, and that jumping to conclusions and making accusations of discrimination is improper and unfair.

 

How many of you are producers on some major project, like a TV show, movie, or game? How many of you have a real understanding of what a producer's job is, and why they exist? A producer exists to manager all the incredibly complex dealings it takes to create things like this. It is their job to manage the dozens, hundreds or thousands of people involved, and make sure everything is handled legally, properly, and within budget. It's an enormous job.

 

Most of you seem to be operating on the premise that on the day they reversed positions on SGRAs, someone at BioWare could have just walked into the "Voice Acting Department" of their studio and told everyone to start recording SGRAs. That isn't how it works.

 

Some of you are claiming that after a year and a half (from the date of the reversal) there is no reason we don't have this content. Hell, some of you seem to be of the opinion that announcing the content 6 months before release means they had no excuse not to have it in the game at release. That's delusional.

 

Remember how long this game was in development before release? I find it extremely likely that the OGRAs were written, recorded, and likely even animated before SGRAs were even put on the table. I find it extremely unlikely they could have, at the time of the reversed position, gone in and started recording more dialogue. They had likely put the wraps on that stage of the operation.

 

So as of the decision to include SGRAs this is an approximation of the kind of work they had ahead of them:

 

Conceptual Development Stage:

 

1. Convene and discuss how best to implement SGRAs

2. Come up with a general concept

3. Assign a team to manage the project

4. Team comes up with an outline for development plans

5. Receive approval for development plan

 

Writing stage:

 

1. Hire or assign contracted writers

2. Work with writers to come up with an actual story outline for each SGRA

3. Seek approval and refine until the green light is given

4. Rough Draft

5. Editing and Revision

6. Final Draft

7. Final Draft approval

 

Voice Acting stage:

 

1. Hire/Assign VA Director

2. Work out schedules of current voice actors and possibly audition and hire new voice talent

3. Update contracts AND/OR sign new contracts for additional content

4. Hire/Assign sound engineers

5. Record all dialogue

6. Edits and possibly re-recording sessions

7. Sound mixing

 

Animation stage:

 

1. Potentially design models for new companions

2. Animate entirely new scenes

3. Modify existing scenes for new content

 

Implementation stage:

 

1. Get new content working independently

2. Inject new content into existing game

3. Smooth conflicts

4. Alpha test

5. Hammer out bugs

6. Develop patch

7. Test patch deployment

8. Certify content as ready to deploy

 

Deployment stage:

 

1. Schedule deployment

2. Work with community team to create blog posts, trailers, etc.

3. Deploy on PTR

 

This is anything but a short process. Further, if this content is on the scale we hope it is, they may have to do this for 16 (one of each gender for each class) or more (potentially all romancable) companions. We are talking about a massive undertaking. Even with the minimal effort required to keep their promises, given that they said they don't want to do a simple pronoun swap, it's far larger in scale than anything implemented post launch.

 

The only thing that even approaches the scale we're talking about here is Section X and HK-51. As far as I'm aware, that content was planned for release as well, but postponed. It was also planned for before, or at least around the same timeframe as, SGRAs. And we JUST got it. We JUST got something that has been in development since before launch, and is much smaller in scope than what SGRAs have the potential to be.

 

We don't know where in the development pipeline SGRAs are. We don't know if they even HAVE concrete answers to our questions yet. Even if they do, game development companies almost NEVER discuss content before it's pretty much finished for deployment.

 

That's the point, we don't know, and that makes it irresponsible to claim discrimination as if its the only answer.

 

I understand it's not our fault we don't know, and I understand the desire for transparency. However, that's not a fair thing to expect, as it's far from established standard. We in the MMO genre have a virtually unprecedented level of communication with our developers, when compared to the gaming industry as a whole, already. Even outside the MMO genre, BioWare is one of the very few development studios that maintains a line of communication with fans beyond occasional press releases.

 

The industry standard is developers don't really talk to fans, they talk to the press. MMO fans enjoy a greater level of access, but even then, developers don't usually talk about what's going on behind studio doors."We'll talk about that when it's ready," has been the mantra of every game developer for a long, long time.

 

The point is, if this content WASN'T of a homosexual nature, but all other things were equal (for example, if OGRAs weren't in the game and that was what we were talking about) I see no indications that we would be being treated differently, and that means accusations of discrimination are at best lucky guesses and at worst completely unwarranted. I see no evidence to support such a claim. Circumstantial evidence doesn't count, because it is subject to the twisting of interpretation.

 

Look, I do personally wish, and think they should, come out and give a simple confirmation that "Yes, SGRAs are still planned." Still, I don't think it's strictly necessary they do that, as it's just a simple confirmation of information we already have and should trust, but it would be nice. Any information above and beyond that is a boon and, should it come, should be received with gratitude.

I have added my question(s) to the Live Stream 2 topic in General. My questions are on page 10 and I quote fabiyun's specific question about SGR's. I recommend we all add a question to it by quoting each other so they cannot say it was an isolated question.

 

~JC

 

While I encourage people to do so as well, I don't expect it to be answered, and we shouldn't really be outraged when it's not. They have pretty well limited the topics they will be addressing by labeling the subject of the chat as 1.6 and F2P. It doesn't have to be an isolated question for them to be justified in not addressing it there, as it's off topic.

 

Still, I encourage people to submit questions about SGRAs anyway, because they will obviously read that thread and it's good for them to see continued interest. Please do try not to come off as antagonistic though.

 

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll at least give us the acknowledgement of answering the question, even if it's with "Sorry we don't have any information ready to share." But I wouldn't count on it.