Rayla?

Anyway I am surprised that this is still going on, even when there is proof showing and a quote from the man himself stating that the prime of the jedi was the PT era. I feel as if now were all just going in circles at this point.

Rayla?

 

Anyway I am surprised that this is still going on, even when there is proof showing and a quote from the man himself stating that the prime of the jedi was the PT era. I feel as if now were all just going in circles at this point.

Hello old friend.

I am hoping my post settles the issue.

I'll make a concerted effort to address your arguments, then.

 

 

We are talking about the same Jedi Guardians, right?

 

"We Guardians are the Republic's first line of defense against the thousand enemies who seek to destroy it."

―Guardian Crix Sunburris describes the role of the Guardians in a chapter of The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

"We are essentially the Republic's army, and must be ready to give up our lives in the service of this cause."- taken from The Jedi Path (By the way, thanks for showing me this quote. It's a great sourcebook, too. )

First line of defense... essentially the Republic's Army... willing to die defending the Republic.... hmmm. Sound a lot like these guys might be responsible for carrying out military operations to stop the Sith.

 

Here are some illustrative quotes from the Wookiepedia pages on the Jedi Order and Jedi Guardians:

"In times of war, especially when Sith forces were involved, Jedi would sometimes assume military ranks...

So Jedi indeed became soldiers, not just keepers of the peace... Focusing all their time and effort on honing their martial skills"

Oh... huh.... So these Jedi who spend all their time focusing on martial skills, and in times of war take up military ranks... they don't have anything in common with those other guys who spend all their time focusing on martial skills? The ones who fight wars? (Hint, they're called soldiers.)

All of the sources I provided comes from The Jedi Path, a book dealing with the post Ruusan Reformations. So the PT Jedi Guardians are skilled warriors, more skilled than you give them credit.

Look down in your post. The Jedi Guardians try to avoid violence whenever possible, but are trained to prepare themselves to fight when it happens.

"Concentrating on martial training and combat,[3] Guardians engaged in combat more than either of the other two classes of Jedi [Consulars and Sentinels]"

You know, it's almost like it was their job to fight...

 

"Master Sunburris recommended spending three hours a day on running, unarmed combat, and lightsaber practice"

Hmmm, when in my life did I spend lots of time running, practicing unarmed combat, and weapons handling? I'm a little foggy on it, but I think there were some... military-type people around. Doing military things. Maybe it's just me, but these Jedi Guardians sound a whole lot like pretty much every military organization ever.

To you, perhaps. But for those that understand the role of the Jedi, that is not the case. You focus in only on the fighting Jedi, and not on what their true purpose is. You see the Jedi and their exploits and think that they are great warriors. Which they are, but that is not their true purpose. You conveniently removed specific quotes detailing this, in favor of your argument.

"While there were many sub-branches to the Guardian class, the most skilled and learned Jedi Masters were granted the honorific of Warrior Master"

This was a title from ancient times, approximately 4000 BBY, but it just shows you the roots of the Jedi.

"Vital to the training of Jedi Initiates at the Temple, lightsaber instructors were chosen by the current Jedi battlemaster after having served many long years on the front lines of battle."

I mean, except for Cin Drallig, since the Jedi hadn't really seen warfare in 1000 years. But, hey, I guess you take what you can get when no one in the Order has a lot of combat experience.

You seem to be forgetting peace keeping missions. A Jedi earns plenty of combat experience.

"Unlike the Consulars, we Guardians don't put much faith in teachers-for-life, and saber instructors bear the scars that attest to hundreds of combat skills."- The Jedi Path

Seems to me the Combat instructors (like Cin Drallig) have plenty of combat experience.

Now, pretty much all of the quotes I listed up there seemed to pertain to the Jedi Order before the Ruusan Reformations, so I'll examine some of the changes those brought to the Order.

Strange, all of my quotes pertain to post Ruusan, as that is when the book was made.

"following the Ruusan Reformation the Guardians took on an even larger role... Policing the galaxy and working closely with sector and system law agencies."

"The Jedi Peacekeepers were specialists in the art of policing the galaxy and ensuring that laws are enforced along the Outer Rim."

Ah, so in the absence of armed conflict, the Jedi Guardians took on policing duties. I guess that explains why it was ok for the Jedi BATTLEMASTER in the PT Era to not have fought in any battles.

I guess you need to learn up on your history then. There were plenty of battles that the Jedi fought in. Maybe not full scale war, but battles nonetheless.

"Guardian is the title, not Warrior. Remember this all Knights should."- Yoda

Well, yes. They are called Guardians, thank you for the reminder, Yoda. And we just established what exactly the purpose of the Jedi Guardians is, which is (pre-ruusan) fighting the Republic's battles and defeating the Sith.

Indeed, the same could be said for post-Ruusan (without the Sith armies).

Is it ok for me to say no? You appear to be contradicting yourself repeatedly. You maintain that the Jedi are not warriors, that fighting is bad for them, and that they should avoid warfare at all costs.

 

However, the Jedi serve as the Republic's Army. The Jedi Guardians solemn duty is to defend the Republic. Last time I checked, defending something from aggression usually involves killing the aggressors, or at least destroying their ability to make war upon you. So maybe we don't call them warriors, but the Jedi Guardians are clearly soldiers in the pre-Ruusan days of the Order.

Again, all of my quotes from The Jedi Path come from post-Ruusan.

They were soldiers, and as you point out below, they aren't after Ruusan. And yet, this serves as a key point in our argument, that Jedi that are at peace will have more time to practice their skills and deepen their connection to The Force. They can't do that in war-times.

But then we come to this statement by Mace Windu: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers. We can't fight a war for you."

Well, that's certainly not what the Jedi used to do! I guess their mission really did change during those thousand years of peace since the New Sith Wars. You have it straight from the mouth of the man considered to be among the foremost Jedi Guardians of the PT Era, these newer Jedi are not soldiers.

Not such a bad thing when you consider every angle. I'll let you do that.

Back in the day, this was said of the Jedi: "In times of war, especially when Sith forces were involved, Jedi would sometimes assume military ranks...

So Jedi indeed became soldiers, not just keepers of the peace..."

In times of war, yes. Such has happened to the Jedi Order numerous times, the PT Order is no different.

There have definitely been some changes in the Order, and not the kind that make you think the PT Jedi have attained superior martial skills.

For one as limited as you perhaps.

When you understand the Light Side of the Force and all of its aspects, then you will see the truth.

Precisely. Sometimes, Jedi are called upon to fight. And the Jedi Guardians train specifically for this. Or, at least they did until the Ruusan Reforms...

Said quote coming from post Ruusan.

It seems pretty clear that the Ruusan Reformations made some drastic changes to the Jedi Order. Let's go over specifically what those were.

 

"With the Sith presumed extinct, the Jedi believed that they had at last forged a long-lasting peace in the galaxy. With the Ruusan Reformation passing the Senate and receiving the High Council's blessings, both the Jedi Order and the Republic renounced militarism..."

Basically, they no longer felt the need to constantly prepare for warfare. Which is completely the opposite of the image you've been trying to paint of the Jedi spending a thousand years preparing for battle.

 

They thought the threat was over, and they could focus on more peaceful endeavors.

And yet, other quotes provided (which you conveniently missed, get your head out of Wookieepedia) have proven the opposite.

"Adults were banned from entering into the Order after Ruusan proved them to be too volatile and susceptible to the dark side's sway."

Advice which the PT Jedi promptly ignored when they started training Anakin... Perhaps if they hadn't gone a thousand years without any serious conflicts, they would have been more wary of these kind of dangers.

No serious conflict? Perhaps you missed the Stark Hyperspace War or the Yinchorri Uprising? Two major conflicts.

"Training would now be undertaken on a strict one-to-one basis and centralized on Coruscant. With the far-flung academies of the past, the temptation of delving into forbidden knowledge was considered too great for members of the order. Many far-flung, satellite training facilities were closed and the Temple on Coruscant became the heart of the Order."

It seems like they were mostly concerned with people poking around and learning nasty things. Revan became a devotee of the Sith teachings he found in the Trayus Academy, and many other Jedi have fallen because of their desire to learn forbidden secrets.

Such falls have occurred numerous times in the history of the Jedi Order. Is it not wise to minimize the risk by keeping everything centralized in one location?

"members of the Council of First Knowledge were determined to completely eradicate all memory of the Sith to ensure they never returned... Dispatching Shadows to find and locate all Sith artifacts, relics, and even history books detailing past Jedi-Sith conflicts; the Order essentially erased all memory of the Sith in under five decades...

...Believing the Sith to be a minor threat, it wasn't until the machinations of Darth Tenebrous and his apprentice Darth Plagueis in the Fobosi District circa 53 BBY, that the Jedi Order felt the dark side of the Force on Coruscant for the first time. in nearly one thousand years."

So they basically thought they'd taken care of the Sith and didn't consider them more than a minor threat until just before the Clone Wars and the Invasion of Naboo.

Indeed, you are right. However, this isn't really important to the argument.

Ah, you're referring to the Battle of Malrev? Because that was long before the Ruusan Reforms, before Yoda's birth. It was actually part of the New Sith Wars.

 

I looked up the Fluwhaka revolt. Nothing about it except that Yoda was there and it involved some Sith-types.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fluwhaka_revolt

This is quite possibly the flimsiest piece of evidence I have ever seen you use, Aurbere. This is meant to be an example of Yoda's combat experience? We don't even know that he had to fight anyone, just that it was an "adventure". Sounds like Yoda had fun, not like fought any kind of brutal battles or anything.

I am aware that the Battle of Malrev took place during the New Sith Wars. I was mainly pointing out that the Black Knights have risen again and again over time.

Revolt generally means a rebellion, which indicates a battle took place. Indeed the evidence is not strong, but it shows Yoda dealing with the Dark Side. Which was the point.

Except that the Sith weren't gone... they were busy carrying out their plan to kill all of the Jedi. But at least we know that Yoda had at least one duel, maybe even a couple, before the outbreak of the Clone Wars.

Yoda, who would serve as teacher to the WHOLE Jedi Order. No doubt he passed on his knowledge to future generations.

Well I'm not buying it. You listed two examples of Yoda confronting Darksiders. This hardly stands up to what we know of the Post-Ruusan Jedi Order, which is that they tended to do a lot of policing and judicial work rather than military operations.

Which is experience in combat as well, right?

They may have been training in lightsaber techniques, but they were the same techniques developed by the Pre-Ruusan Jedi. There's nothing to indicate a sudden shift in lightsaber training following Ruusan, except that they stopped studying Makashi as much because they didn't expect to fight lightsaber users.

Not really. The quotes that you (conveniently) missed show that the lightsaber forms are in constant development. Her, I'll post it again for you:

"As a Knight you should never stop learning-lightsaber techniques are no different. Every move you perfect only opens pathways to new moves. Even we battlemasters are humbled by how little we know."

Seems the above indicates that the lightsaber forms constantly evolve.

Umm, no? It really doesn't. In fact, everything seems to point to the opposite, that the PT Era Jedi had lived in a galaxy that hadn't seen warfare in a thousand years. This is in stark contrast to the Pre-Ruusan Jedi, who stated directly that they were standing by to serve the Republic as soldiers.

Again, I have just pointed out two instances of warfare. And there are many more.

And when you bring this back up:

" Following the post war reformations, the Republic no longer has a standing army. We are essentially the Republic's army, and must be ready to give up our lives in the service of this cause."

I will point out that since there hasn't been a war in a thousand years, the Republic doesn't exactly have an overwhelming need for an army.

And again, look up. The Stark Hyperspace War and the Yinchorri Uprising were major conflicts. The former saw the loss of Master Tyvokka, a legendary Jedi Master known for his incredibly powerful precognitive abilities. The latter saw the loss of seven Jedi, one of whom was a Council member.

Now you'll say that this shows their ineptitude in combat, but it really doesn't when you consider the circumstance.

Tyvokka was killed by Trade Federation battle droids when Nute Gunray gave the 'vague' order to 'kill them all'. He was caught in a cross-fire.

The seven Jedi killed in the Yinchorri Uprising were killed due to poor intel, namely that the Yinchorri were armed with Cortosis weaponry and were immune to mind tricks, as well as being highly militant.

Now answer me a few questions.

When the Sith Empire returned to wage the Great Galactic War, the Jedi Order had experienced a long period of peace. So why was Kao Cen Darach able to hold his own agains Vindican and Malgus, two Sith who had been preparing for war their entire lives?

And why did the 1000 year peace create some of the greatest duelists of all time?

Answer those questions, please.

I'll give it a try Aurbere but I doubt it'll be quite as well done as your previous post (bravo on that, very well written)

Thank you kindly.

Alright, we'll start with the Force particularly the Dark Side in order to have a point of reference once we get into the Light side and how it relates to Jedi.[/color]

 

"Evil began in a time before recorded history, when magicians made themselves into kings…and gods…using the powers of the dark side of the Force. The weak-minded have ever been ready to obey one who wields great power. Those who learned the powers of the dark side were quick to exploit this weakness—to make war*. Again and again the dark side has surged forth, like a storm…devouring whole worlds and entire star systems. Those who mastered dark power became dark power. They unleashed destruction, for no other reason than for selfish gain. They despoiled nations…destroyed whole civilizations. Some of them, I am ashamed to say, were Jedi.*" -Ood Bnar

 

*bold is me adding emphasis

 

So from this quote we see the nature of the Dark Side. The nature of the Dark Side for our purposes is war, destruction, and corruption. The greed of Dark Side users stirs them towards conflict, and inevitably, they find the peace loving, freedom protecting Jedi a threat.

Correct.

"Regardless of their reasons, almost all who fell to the dark side did so because they had been faced with challenges and difficulties they felt the light side was incapable of fixing. Whatever changes they had undergone were clear results of the lives they had led and the experiences they had survived." -Wookieepedia

 

This suggests that those who feel the the Dark Side did so due to extreme stresses and issues and the last three words in particular lead me to conclude that War was a primary reason for a Jedi's fall.

 

Now it's all good and dandy for me to talk about the Dark Side and it's relation to war, we already know that don't we? We'd assume the Jedi of the OR era who didn't fall would be almost immune to the Dark Side right?

Wrong. Few Jedi are immune to the Dark Side. Even Yoda himself said that he battled the Dark Side regularly. (I believe he spoke of this in Dark Rendezvous)

"Rushing to help friends, facing obvious perils, and ending disputes quickly were all acts of haste that according to Master Shim would result in steps onto the dark path should the individual act first and contemplate later." -Wookiepedia

 

The examples you have of self-sacrifice and protecting innocents is all well and good, but you can't tell me these never happen to even veteran Jedi on the battle field. We see Jedi in the OR do this time and again, and often they pay a price for it.

 

So far, we know that Jedi at war are far more likely to be exposed to the Dark Side. Now, how do the Jedi view, react to, and experience war.

Indeed they do pay the price. Often times heroism is met with the iron grip of the Dark Side. Specifically speaking of Revan and Malak, they were viewed as heroes. The people didn't care what they did so long as the Mandalorians were defeated, Revan and Malak shared the same view.

''Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.

Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.

Jedi respect all life, in any form.

Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.

Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.'' - 'Classic' Jedi Code

 

Note the use of the words guardians, peace, defend, improve, and training. The code show the natural state for the Jedi is peace. They improve themselves not by fighting on the battlefield or dueling Sith opponents, they improve themselves through training and knowledge which the PT Jedi had far more of than the OR Jedi. Now while the Code and the various interpretations of the Code cover the very real and ever present possibility of war and how a Jedi should act, it never condones war save to prevent the destruction of civilization and only as a last resort.

 

Also Note the original Jedi Code was changed by Odan-Urr around 5,000 BBY (OR era) and restored around 800-700 BBY (PT era)

Odan-Urr's Code remained in use until the Great Jedi Purge. The above Code you listed was a second version that existed alongside Odan-Urr's Code.

"Conquer Aggression

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

―Yoda

A sizable number of Jedi, in training, confused the meanings of attack, defense and aggression. Thus Younglings were taught that it was possible for a Jedi to strike without aggression, so long as they acted without recklessness, hatred or anger. A Jedi was permitted to kill in self-defense—only if there was no other option. However, Jedi instructors taught their students that killing, no matter what the circumstances, was not to become commonplace. To conquer aggression, even in combat, a Jedi must have explored every other option, including surrender, before resorting to using lethal force. Jedi who depended on murder were close to the Dark side of the Force." -Wookiepedia

 

They say even surrender is superior to fighting with aggression even in combat. While they may have training to control themselves, Jedi in constant war will inevitably falter in this area, if I grant your use of 'human nature' into this argument my point is only strengthened here.

Indeed.

"Jedi would always have been ready to accept defeat if the cost of winning was greater than the cost of losing. Jedi were taught that it was always best to end things peacefully than to win or lose." - see above

 

How do Jedi see war?

 

"I did not come to fight this war. I don't care who wins. Because no one wins. Not in real war. It is only a question of how much each side is willing to lose." -Mace Windu

Now we get into what happens when Jedi go to war.

 

We'll use a well know event, the Jedi Civil War.

Mace Windu is right. Victory in war is an illusion. War itself is a state of mind. War is just many killings. The side that emerges 'the victor' decided to sacrifice more for victory.

"Malak and Revan were once part of the Jedi Order, but they were young and headstrong. And against the wishes of the Council they went to battle the Mandalorians on the Outer Rim." -Carth Onasi

 

Well now, ignoring the council (against the code) and entering the war with aggression (also against the code). Two strikes, plus Revan's strategy of using MtU's total war tactics and letting planets burn in order to strike back himself reeks of the Dark Side, namely rushing into a fight and taking the easy way out. While from a military point of view it was brilliant, the toll it took on his connection to the force would come back to haunt him.

 

Once he won the Mandalorian Wars (with the horrific actions at Malachor V), his Jedi who'd become desensitized to the violence and passions they'd experienced where subjected to the leadership of a newly converted Darth Revan. Revan spread Sith teachings among his followers.

Very true.

"After Malachor, after the Mandalorian Wars, that's when the Sith teachings started spreading through the ranks. We knew where our loyalties lay—to the Jedi who came to help us, not the ones who sat back on Dantooine and Coruscant, watching us die." -Atton Rand

 

They didn't have to accept them, they just did because of both attachments made during the war to their fellow soldiers and Revan himself, as well as their resentment to the true Jedi Order caused by their recklessness during the war.

 

So, how exactly does this tie into OR Jedi's force connection being weaker than PT?

 

If a Jedi falls away from the code and by extension the Light Side, they fall away from being a Jedi. Their power is weakened because their minds aren't clear. When does a Jedi on the front lines have time to meditate for days about the force? Jedi on the front lines slowly fall the to the Dark Side and it is a daily struggle to keep from going over. This will wear them down.

 

To make this point relate to war specifically, I present the Dark Jedi Wookieepedia page as evidence in of itself.

 

If you look, in particularly at this section,

Again, so true.

"2,000 BBY, Umbaran Jedi Master Phanius fell to the dark side. He left the Jedi Order with fifty Jedi Knights and became Darth Ruin. He eventually established a new Sith Empire that later resulted in the New Sith Wars. During the era of Lord Skere Kaan, many dark-siders were considered Sith Lords and very few Dark Jedi were ever seen in the following millennia, until the Clone Wars." -Dark Jedi Wookieepedia page

 

*bold, was again, my own emphasis

 

You'll see a series of wars with numerous fallen dark jedi appearing. However in the peace between about 2000 BBY and pre-Clone Wars there where very few fallen jedi and they never posed a threat to the peaceful and ever more powerful Jedi Order. So obviously peace is a good thing for jedi in this respect. (OR- Kun, Fallen Jedi nearly conquers the galaxy. PT- nothing of the sort until the Clone Wars)

 

In conclusion, (and I hope I'm not the only one to write something up about this, Aurbere I'd like your input)

 

The Jedi Code shows training and knowledge are the keys to a Jedi's power. The pull of the Dark Side is strong during war and thus war is bad for Jedi. And finally, the implications of this is that Jedi during war are deprived of the meditation and knowledge they need while constantly fighting their own inner demons in the form of the Dark Side influences. This is denoted by the increased number of fallen Jedi during war as opposed to peace.

 

I hope this helps you grasp that War never benefits the Jedi. Things a Jedi has to do as a soldier and warrior go contrary to the Code often.

 

I'd like to leave you with this quote, if you realize how it relates to our debate (at least in my mind) I'd be elated.

 

"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil." - Luke Skywalker, near the beginning of the Second Galactic Civil War

What's unfortnate is that the crux of this combat experience argument is actually quite pathetic.

Basically what I take from this is that an OR Knight will beat a PT master of all forms simply because OR Knight has faced a Sith. That's basically how I see it now.

Couldn't you say it like this, were the jedi of old, be it old republic or older, would be stronger in the seance of they could beat the PT jedi as warriors but the PT jedi have them on the knowledge of the force?

So say sateale would beat yoda in a straight up fight but yoda would be more knowledge (don't mean stronger but he can see into the force etc) in the force.

Bad example but i can't think of any other masters of the order atm.

But for sith it's a given, sith of the past beat the sith of new.

The jedi are more complicated.

Nope. Yoda would beat Satele in all areas. Never has the Jedi Order seen a Jedi as powerful as he (at least until Luke Skywalker, but he's evolved past Yoda).

And Sidious would beat all comers for the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.

.

 

In just about everything PT beats OR, only in saber skills (which are much more ambiguous) do I think there is anything close to an even match up and even so the PT Jedi imo takes it with a slight edge. I see what you're trying to say, but there's a lot of cannon established about how the top Sith and Jedi during the PT era where the best but less about how the average Jedi stacked up.

I guess I see your point, in terms of the average joe. But the 'well known' members of the PT Order are on another level. I won't get into who could tangle with them, but in terms of OR Jedi, that number is quite low.

Agreed, the most glaringly obvious point for the PT>OR argument is that where the OR Jedi tended to specialise in one area, be it Lightsaber combat or the Force or even Stealth, the Jedi of the PT were trained in every aspect and more, every Lightsaber specailist in the PT had at least two or three really good abilities with the force, those who focused on the Force all had exceptional skills with a lightsaber, mastering two even three forms, the OR Jedi had very few who could claim the same thing, at any point during the Old Sith Wars and even the New Sith Wars.

 

Face it people, the Orthodox Jedi Order that came out of the Ruusan Reformation, were the most battle-hardened Jedi seen, they'd fought relentlessly against the Sith for CENTURIES straight and continuously managed to survive and went on to destroy them all, at which point the Sith got so rolfstomped by Lord Hoth's Army of Light, that they had to use the Thought Bomb given to them by Darth Bane, whom went and established the Order of the Sith Lords, which was based on deception, for the sole reason that the Orthodox Jedi owned them that damn hard that the Sith had got weaker even before they lost and the Sith had EVERYTHING but the Core Worlds under control.

 

You pro-OR debaters want to claim that war had hardened the Jedi of those times to be more experienced, I suggest you go and do some research on the New Sith Wars which the PT Jedi Order was established from and then realise that the Clone Wars themselves were the biggest and bloodiest collection of wars ever fought in the whole of history.

 

Oh and let's not forget that due to the efforts of the remaining Jedi during the Galactic Civil War was the Galactic Empire defeated, the most powerful Sith ever destroyed(for awhile) and the light side of the force again became a more dominant aspect.

 

Oh and did you know that because the Sith got spanked SO hard by the Army of Light that the Dark Side was all but gone and only survived through the most exceptional and potentially greatest force users that were around at any given time, it took Tenebrous' master opening a hole in the force for the Jedi to truly feel the Dark Side again, as the Light Side had become that dominant, it was this rend or wound in the force that allowed the SIth to really begin gaining the insane amounts of power that they continuously did.

 

PS: Yeh, I'm back.

Back and better than ever, I see. Welcome back!

Oh and the above quote^. Read it Vent.

I'm a little to tired of this debate to give another lenghty argument and I think it may be about time that we find some common ground - if that's possible.

But I will say that fighting a Sith threat, while being one of the main purposes of a Jedi, does not mean they will grow closer to the light. In fact it is likely the opposite, in times of war the presence of the Light finds itself in 'battle' if you will with the dark. In this sense, until the Sith are defeated, the Force will be in a state of flux and the Light will be weakened, offset by the presence of the dark. It is only until after conflict has subsided that the Light will be restored. Jedi fight war to restore peace, they do not thrive in it, but they must train themselves to confront it. This is because a skilled Jedi can end a war faster than a weaker one, the faster the war ends the less of a negative effect it will have on the Light and their affinity too it. This is why you find many quotes saying Jedi are foot soldiers of the Republic etc. However even so, Jedi always attempt to resolve matters through peace rather than war.

In this sense a Jedi would thrive in constant peace were they don't have to struggle with emotions and the like, instead they can focus on centering themselves and growing closer to the Force. You've made a lot of arguments as to how a Jedi would keep a clear head in times of war, but none suggesting that a Jedi in times of peace would have similar struggles - this is because they would not. Simply put, it is much easier for a Jedi to center himself, as so grow closer to the Force, in times of peace rather than war.

Consider also the roots that 'the Force' has in real world religions and Buddhism in particular. How do Buddhist monks achieve enlightenment? Through meditation and peacefulness, not through war and battle.

And just some clarification on my part, I'm not necessarily saying that a Jedi's connection to the Force is weakened by war, although it can be in cases. What I'm saying that in times of war it is very difficult for a Jedi to grow closer to the Force - because it is harder to achieve inner peace amongst the outer chaos.

We seem to have strayed far into the realm of Jedi philosophy here. Allow me to be clear. I do not care what makes a good Jedi, nor do I honestly care for the Jedi Code. Yoda is a pseudo-mystical pacifist spouting half-witted aphorisms the likes of which I often find on fortune cookies.

The Jedi are indecisive, hypocritical, and pathetic. They claim to be peacekeepers and negotiators, and almost every situation they become involved in turns lethal. If, as StarSquirrel says, the Jedi of the PT Era are so wise and in tune with the Light side, why was Mace Windu's first response at Geonosis to initiate violence? Dooku offered them the chance to surrender, despite the Jedi never even considering negotiations for the release of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

But that's ancillary to my main point. I am discussing lightsaber abilities, not the philosophical merits of pacifism (something the Jedi conveniently discard whenever they like). Specifically, I am arguing that the dueling abilities of the Jedi Order had decayed considerably by the PT Era.

Those who argue that 1000 years of peace made the Jedi incredibly powerful are subscribing to a convenient logical fallacy. They fail to distinguish the development of the Jedi Order as a whole from the development of the individuals who comprise it. None of the Jedi we see in the PT Era have been alive for 1000 years, not even Yoda. What you fail to consider is that every Jedi, in all eras, has only a finite amount of time and energy. The passage of time is a constant, constraining every Jedi equally.

No one can be the master of everything, and it naturally stands to reason that someone who specializes their training will achieve greater expertise than someone who divides it over many areas. The fact that many PT Jedi Masters spent time studying many different forms does not automatically make them more skilled than someone who specialized. We clearly see Darth Vader (Form V specialist) easily dispatch Cin Drallig (Universalist, and Jedi Battlemaster. Someone who ought to be one of the best swordsmen in the Order). Exar Kun was a Niman specialist, and he is recognized as one of the best duelists ever.

Don't whine to me that he's a Sith. I don't care about Sith or Jedi, what I am concerned with are combat abilities with the lightsaber. If anything, it appears that Dark Side fuels more powerful duelists. Even Mace Windu taps into his inner darkness to become the best swordsman in the PT Era, so perhaps if the Jedi weren't so afraid of enjoying battle (Fear leads to blah blah blah, the Dark Side! Egads! Grow up children, even Luke Skywalker was wiling to use powers considered "dark" when he felt it necessary in the service of the Light) they would be able to tap into greater combat abilities.

The Jedi who fought in the Great Galactic War, and the Army of Light, and the Jedi Civil War, and so forth had firsthand experience with lightsaber combat. They lived and breathed warfare, and if that means that many of them came close to the Dark Side, so be it. They were deadly combatants.

The Jedi who entered the Clone Wars were completely inexperienced, with only a few possible exceptions. They were not magically trained in every aspect of combat. There was no reason for them to be.

They had limited time. Without a major threat, without a war going on, there was no impetus to excel at lightsaber combat. The only threat they needed to be prepared for was blaster fire, and they certainly didn't prepare their Niman practitioners for that!

The Stark Hyperspace War was a tiny conflict. There were five engagements, and most of the war took place inside of a single star system. More importantly, there were no enemy lightsaber combatants.

The Yinchorri uprising was also a minor hiccup of galactic event, when compared to crises like the Mandalorian Wars or the Great Galactic War.

The argument that the Jedi Order was developing the lightsaber forms during their thousand year Golden Age seem to hinge on this statement

Not really. The quotes that you (conveniently) missed show that the lightsaber forms are in constant development. Her, I'll post it again for you:

 

"As a Knight you should never stop learning-lightsaber techniques are no different. Every move you perfect only opens pathways to new moves. Even we battlemasters are humbled by how little we know."

An unattributed quote from a Jedi training manual, which actually supports precisely what I'm saying. The forms cannot be mastered overnight, or even within a lifetime. Jedi who study them are continually improving because there is so much there to study. The forms are ancient and very few can hope to master even one form within their lifetime. So there is no evidence that the forms were evolving in the absence of lightsaber dueling, but rather that there was already a wealth of knowledge to master, and that true mastery was always a step ahead.

Citing Yoda's experience against a single darksider, or a vague reference to a revolt involving the Black Knights is not much to go on, not when I'm comparing that experience against the intensity of a full scale Galactic War.

Despite all of this back and forth about the effects of war on Jedi, etc. etc. there still remains my original point. None of the PT Jedi had meaningful experience in lightsaber combat, and most of them died before ever engaging in a lightsaber duel with an enemy.

In the days of Sith Empire, and other times of conflict, such duels were common on the battlefield. That is why the lightsaber forms were developed in the first place, and why they did not change significantly once those duels stopped being commonplace.

They say the Dark Side is the quick and easy path to power, and perhaps war encourages Jedi to tread close to the Dark Side. That's not my concern. What I'm debating here is their prowess with a lightsaber. If Jedi who experience prolonged war trade some connection to the Light Side for an affinity with the Dark Side, I don't really care. What matters is that their proficiency with a lightsaber will increase with their combat experience.

As an aside, cut this absurd nonsense out:

What's unfortnate is that the crux of this combat experience argument is actually quite pathetic.

 

Basically what I take from this is that an OR Knight will beat a PT master of all forms simply because OR Knight has faced a Sith. That's basically how I see it now.

I never said anything along those lines, and your attempts to extrapolate absurd theses out of my arguments reflects poorly on your reasoning skills. A PT Master would likely defeat a Knight from any era, based on his experience. I am strictly speaking of equal comparisons, a Knight from the Great Galactic War compared to a Knight during the PT Era, or a master, or a padawan. Logical comparisons between equally trained individuals.

Mace Windu is right. Victory in war is an illusion. War itself is a state of mind. War is just many killings. The side that emerges 'the victor' decided to sacrifice more for victory.

Mace Windu is starting to sound like a moron. Victory in war is a concrete thing. Sometimes it is costly, and sometimes it is not. The side that emerges victorious is rarely the side that sacrificed more, but rather the side that forced the other guys to sacrifice more. If you make your enemy pay a heavier price than you do, you will be victorious.

War is not a state of mind. That doesn't even make sense. Sounds like more half-witted fortune cookie aphorisms to me.

Now, if my tone sounds sarcastic and a little acerbic, it's because the circular and inconsistent logic of the Jedi Code has begun to grate on my nerves. Kindly pay attention to my core arguments, which are that the PT Jedi have not seen lightsaber combat in a thousand years with the possible exceptions of Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn being forced to kill a darksider here or there.

Given that the PT Jedi are not immortal, that they have limited training time, it only makes sense that they have devoted their studies to relevant threats. They did not have the time to perfect every aspect of lightsaber dueling, they were busy with other things. The "myth" that I am disproving is that the PT Jedi were these perfect demi-gods who had mastered everything known to the Jedi Order.

Again, individuals vs. the overall condition of the Order. Yes, the Jedi Order was in its prime. It was larger than ever before and was enjoying a thousand year peace. Times were good for the Order. Individuals still had to spend time training and learning, though. No one can learn everything, and time must be allotted accordingly. Just the way it was back in the older Eras.

So the individual Jedi we see enter the Clone Wars are not hardened combatants, and most of them have spent more time focusing on resolving disputes and performing policing duties than they have spent preparing for war. Thus the heavy casualties we see early on in the Clone Wars. Their lightsaber combat has evolved, yes, but it has evolved to confront the threat of blaster wielding enemies, not lightsaber armed foes.

Agreed, the most glaringly obvious point for the PT>OR argument is that where the OR Jedi tended to specialise in one area, be it Lightsaber combat or the Force or even Stealth, the Jedi of the PT were trained in every aspect and more, every Lightsaber specailist in the PT had at least two or three really good abilities with the force, those who focused on the Force all had exceptional skills with a lightsaber, mastering two even three forms, the OR Jedi had very few who could claim the same thing, at any point during the Old Sith Wars and even the New Sith Wars.

Universalists don't have much of a track record against Specialists. See my above post.

Face it people, the Orthodox Jedi Order that came out of the Ruusan Reformation, were the most battle-hardened Jedi seen, they'd fought relentlessly against the Sith for CENTURIES straight and continuously managed to survive and went on to destroy them all, at which point the Sith got so rolfstomped by Lord Hoth's Army of Light, that they had to use the Thought Bomb given to them by Darth Bane, whom went and established the Order of the Sith Lords, which was based on deception, for the sole reason that the Orthodox Jedi owned them that damn hard that the Sith had got weaker even before they lost and the Sith had EVERYTHING but the Core Worlds under control.

I'm glad you think so highly of the Army of Light. You do realize that they're one of the groups I'm comparing against the PT Era Jedi, though?

You pro-OR debaters want to claim that war had hardened the Jedi of those times to be more experienced, I suggest you go and do some research on the New Sith Wars which the PT Jedi Order was established from and then realise that the Clone Wars themselves were the biggest and bloodiest collection of wars ever fought in the whole of history.

First, the Clone Wars did not feature much lightsaber combat at all (meaning a duel between two adversaries). I realize you're new to the conversation, and perhaps we strayed from my original point.

The Clone Wars may have been the largest conflict in history, but that doesn't matter. Technically, none of the Jedi survived the Clone Wars. I'm just concerned with their dueling abilities prior to them getting perforated by their Clone troops.

Oh and let's not forget that due to the efforts of the remaining Jedi during the Galactic Civil War was the Galactic Empire defeated, the most powerful Sith ever destroyed(for awhile) and the light side of the force again became a more dominant aspect.

Oh, you mean Luke Skywalker's efforts? Yes, the kid did good work. Or did you mean the part where Obi-Wan got himself cut in half by Vader? Or the time where Yoda died of old age before managing to train more than one new Jedi?

Oh and did you know that because the Sith got spanked SO hard by the Army of Light that the Dark Side was all but gone and only survived through the most exceptional and potentially greatest force users that were around at any given time, it took Tenebrous' master opening a hole in the force for the Jedi to truly feel the Dark Side again, as the Light Side had become that dominant, it was this rend or wound in the force that allowed the SIth to really begin gaining the insane amounts of power that they continuously did.

 

PS: Yeh, I'm back.

Again... you're kind of supporting the Army of Light a lot. I'm sure those guys would also slice up the PT Jedi in open combat fairly easily.

We seem to have strayed far into the realm of Jedi philosophy here. Allow me to be clear. I do not care what makes a good Jedi, nor do I honestly care for the Jedi Code. Yoda is a pseudo-mystical pacifist spouting half-witted aphorisms the likes of which I often find on fortune cookies.

Strange. I have not seen 'size matters not' on a fortune cookiee. You must tell me where you get your fortune cookiees.

But seriously. The reason this failed case of yours is so logical to you is because you do not understand the Jedi way.

The Jedi are indecisive, hypocritical, and pathetic. They claim to be peacekeepers and negotiators, and almost every situation they become involved in turns lethal. If, as StarSquirrel says, the Jedi of the PT Era are so wise and in tune with the Light side, why was Mace Windu's first response at Geonosis to initiate violence? Dooku offered them the chance to surrender, despite the Jedi never even considering negotiations for the release of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Is it their fault that things turn lethal? In your mind it is. But you don't see the real truth, I'll leave you to figure that out.

But that's ancillary to my main point. I am discussing lightsaber abilities, not the philosophical merits of pacifism (something the Jedi conveniently discard whenever they like). Specifically, I am arguing that the dueling abilities of the Jedi Order had decayed considerably by the PT Era.

But they haven't for reasons listed prior to this very rude post.

Those who argue that 1000 years of peace made the Jedi incredibly powerful are subscribing to a convenient logical fallacy. They fail to distinguish the development of the Jedi Order as a whole from the development of the individuals who comprise it. None of the Jedi we see in the PT Era have been alive for 1000 years, not even Yoda. What you fail to consider is that every Jedi, in all eras, has only a finite amount of time and energy. The passage of time is a constant, constraining every Jedi equally.

 

No one can be the master of everything, and it naturally stands to reason that someone who specializes their training will achieve greater expertise than someone who divides it over many areas. The fact that many PT Jedi Masters spent time studying many different forms does not automatically make them more skilled than someone who specialized. We clearly see Darth Vader (Form V specialist) easily dispatch Cin Drallig (Universalist, and Jedi Battlemaster. Someone who ought to be one of the best swordsmen in the Order). Exar Kun was a Niman specialist, and he is recognized as one of the best duelists ever.

And yet somehow, the 1000 year peace produced some of the best duelists of all time. Huh. How did that happen?

Putting you failed logic aside. How did Yoda master the seven forms, while mastering Ataru to its highest extent? Your answer: he's 800 years old, plenty of time. Very true. But what about Mace Windu? He mastered all seven forms and created his own style, a style that completed Juyo. He's not 800 years old, and yet he achieved similar dueling skills to Yoda.

What about Dooku, the Makashi master? He's not 1000 years old, and yet he fully mastered Makashi.

Kit Fisto? He mastered Shii-Cho to the highest levels.

Plo Koon? He mastered Djem So.

How did these guys master lightsaber forms without being in war? Since they don't have infinite time, as you say, how were they able to master lightsaber forms without being involved in warfare?

YOU: Well they still have no lightsaber combat experience!

Maybe so, but it seems that they didn't need it. Let's take Ventress for example. Much of her life was filled with battle, and yet Plo Koon were capable of dealing with her while suffering from a broken left arm (meaning he couldn't utilize the strong strikes of Djem So). Mace Windu also bested Ventress with little difficulty. Yoda didn't even have to fight her, he easily disarmed with The Force.

So tell me, since Ventress was a battle-hardened warrior, how did the above Jedi best her? Perhaps your vaunted 'experience through war' argument is flawed. Or will you say that Ventress has no dueling experience either? Maybe, but she has plenty of battlefield experience from fighting in various wars on Rattatak. A battle hardened veteran humbled by several PT Masters.

Don't whine to me that he's a Sith. I don't care about Sith or Jedi, what I am concerned with are combat abilities with the lightsaber. If anything, it appears that Dark Side fuels more powerful duelists. Even Mace Windu taps into his inner darkness to become the best swordsman in the PT Era, so perhaps if the Jedi weren't so afraid of enjoying battle (Fear leads to blah blah blah, the Dark Side! Egads! Grow up children, even Luke Skywalker was wiling to use powers considered "dark" when he felt it necessary in the service of the Light) they would be able to tap into greater combat abilities.

And then the Jedi would fail as defenders of the Light. They would give into the Dark Side and fall, much like many did before them.

Mace Windu's Vaapad form allowed him to use the Dark Side as a tool for the Light. Luke Skywalker is Luke Skywalker.

The Jedi who fought in the Great Galactic War, and the Army of Light, and the Jedi Civil War, and so forth had firsthand experience with lightsaber combat. They lived and breathed warfare, and if that means that many of them came close to the Dark Side, so be it. They were deadly combatants.

Maybe so, but you overestimate how much experience they have.

Not to mention the skill and knowledge of the New Sith Wars veterans being passed down each new generation during the Golden Age. And like I posted before, the lightsaber skills were always evolving. Unless you deny that? (which is not possible, that would make the time of Odan-Urr and Vodo Baas the height of Jedi combat)

The Jedi who entered the Clone Wars were completely inexperienced, with only a few possible exceptions. They were not magically trained in every aspect of combat. There was no reason for them to be.

 

They had limited time. Without a major threat, without a war going on, there was no impetus to excel at lightsaber combat. The only threat they needed to be prepared for was blaster fire, and they certainly didn't prepare their Niman practitioners for that!

Magically trained? No. But they were training. Many Jedi became skilled in the many aspects of combat. Mace Windu and Yoda being full masters.

Maybe if you knew the circumstance of the Geonosis Arena, you wouldn't be so quick to judge. How many droids were they fighting? Thousands? Two hundred Jedi vs. thousands of droids. And like you said, many of them practiced Niman. Does this suddenly make them inferior? No. Considering how badly they were outnumbered, I'd say that it is no surprise that many Jedi were killed.

Not to mention two of the Order's most skilled Jedi Masters were attempting to disable the droid army via the droid control ship, but then learned that they were independant of the system.

But then you will say that an OR Jedi would have done better. If you're logic that the Jedi were preparing for blaster wielding enemies is correct, shouldn't more Jedi have survived that battle?

The Stark Hyperspace War was a tiny conflict. There were five engagements, and most of the war took place inside of a single star system. More importantly, there were no enemy lightsaber combatants.

The Yinchorri uprising was also a minor hiccup of galactic event, when compared to crises like the Mandalorian Wars or the Great Galactic War.

They still happened. They still gained experience from it.

An unattributed quote from a Jedi training manual, which actually supports precisely what I'm saying. The forms cannot be mastered overnight, or even within a lifetime. Jedi who study them are continually improving because there is so much there to study.

So wouldn't a Golden Age of peace give the Jedi enough time to develop these forms? As you said, the Jedi only had so much time. In fact this works against your argument, as OR Jedi involved in warfare would have little time to actually expand their skill with their chosen form. Whereas, the Golden Age allowed the Jedi to study and expand the lightsaber forms.

The forms are ancient and very few can hope to master even one form within their lifetime. So there is no evidence that the forms were evolving in the absence of lightsaber dueling, but rather that there was already a wealth of knowledge to master, and that true mastery was always a step ahead.

And yet, multiple PT Jedi mastered multiple, or even all seven, forms. How did that happen? Or is this your war on knowledge as well?

You assume that an OR Knight mastered one or several forms, but you have no proof of this. There is proof to support that many PT Jedi mastered a single form, or even multiple forms.

Citing Yoda's experience against a single darksider, or a vague reference to a revolt involving the Black Knights is not much to go on, not when I'm comparing that experience against the intensity of a full scale Galactic War.

It actually helps more than you think, seeing as Yoda trained most of the Jedi we see in the Prequels. So he passes on his experience to those he teaches. Unless you think Yoda would refuse to impart knowledge to his fellows? No wait, you think Yoda a living fortune cookiee. Never mind, don't answer that question.

Despite all of this back and forth about the effects of war on Jedi, etc. etc. there still remains my original point. None of the PT Jedi had meaningful experience in lightsaber combat, and most of them died before ever engaging in a lightsaber duel with an enemy.

And yet they seem to manage fine against lightsaber duelists. In addition to what I said above, let's look at Dooku.

Dooku was THE master of Makashi (the dueling form), and Jedi that you claim to have no dueling experience manage to best him. Yoda and Mace Windu in particular.

Unless you plan to say that Yoda and Mace Windu are exceptions due to their own mastery of Makashi? You would be correct.

How about General Grievous? He's a living weapon and yet he's been bested by the Jedi that have no experience. And trust me, Grievous has plenty of experience.

YOU: Cyborgs don't count!

/sigh

In the days of Sith Empire, and other times of conflict, such duels were common on the battlefield. That is why the lightsaber forms were developed in the first place, and why they did not change significantly once those duels stopped being commonplace.

Proof? Because I have proof that forms were constantly evolving.

They say the Dark Side is the quick and easy path to power, and perhaps war encourages Jedi to tread close to the Dark Side. That's not my concern. What I'm debating here is their prowess with a lightsaber. If Jedi who experience prolonged war trade some connection to the Light Side for an affinity with the Dark Side, I don't really care. What matters is that their proficiency with a lightsaber will increase with their combat experience.

So you would have the Jedi abandon their beliefs to make themselves better warriors? You remind me of a young Jedi, tainted by war and willing to do whatever it takes to win.

I never said anything along those lines, and your attempts to extrapolate absurd theses out of my arguments reflects poorly on your reasoning skills. A PT Master would likely defeat a Knight from any era, based on his experience. I am strictly speaking of equal comparisons, a Knight from the Great Galactic War compared to a Knight during the PT Era, or a master, or a padawan. Logical comparisons between equally trained individuals.

I did that with Satele and Yoda, and you ranted about me not having proof. Well the proof is in the pudding. I compared an OR Grand Master with a PT Grand Master and proved the latter's superiority. You then ranted that they never fought and thus it could not be proven.

The same argument can be used against you. A PT Jedi and an OR Jedi never fought, and thus victory for either side can not be proven. You basically killed this debate with that argument.

Mace Windu is starting to sound like a moron. Victory in war is a concrete thing. Sometimes it is costly, and sometimes it is not. The side that emerges victorious is rarely the side that sacrificed more, but rather the side that forced the other guys to sacrifice more. If you make your enemy pay a heavier price than you do, you will be victorious.

War is not a state of mind. That doesn't even make sense. Sounds like more half-witted fortune cookie aphorisms to me.

This does not concern me as Jedi prefer to avoid wars.

Now, if my tone sounds sarcastic and a little acerbic, it's because the circular and inconsistent logic of the Jedi Code has begun to grate on my nerves. Kindly pay attention to my core arguments, which are that the PT Jedi have not seen lightsaber combat in a thousand years with the possible exceptions of Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn being forced to kill a darksider here or there.

Not sarcastic, more rude and ignorant.

Given that the PT Jedi are not immortal, that they have limited training time, it only makes sense that they have devoted their studies to relevant threats. They did not have the time to perfect every aspect of lightsaber dueling, they were busy with other things. The "myth" that I am disproving is that the PT Jedi were these perfect demi-gods who had mastered everything known to the Jedi Order.

And yet, several Jedi did.

You know, Plo Koon mastering form V, which includes Shien (blaster deflection) and Djem So (lightsaber dueling).

Dooku mastered Makashi (THE dueling form).

Kit Fisto mastered Shii-Cho (generally not a dueling form, but he mastered it to the point that it became viable)

Mace Windu mastered every form, as did Yoda

Anakin Skywalker mastered Form V

Now you'll say that this doesn't matter and you would wish to focus on Jedi Knight vs Jedi Knight.

Well you have shown that your argument encompasses all ranks, especially when you brought Exar Kun in.

Again, individuals vs. the overall condition of the Order. Yes, the Jedi Order was in its prime. It was larger than ever before and was enjoying a thousand year peace. Times were good for the Order. Individuals still had to spend time training and learning, though. No one can learn everything, and time must be allotted accordingly. Just the way it was back in the older Eras.

Again, the 1000 years allowed the forms to advance as each generation mastered forms. And then we have Jedi Masters mastering multiple, or all seven, forms. Counter to what you said about mastering a form taking a lifetime.

So the individual Jedi we see enter the Clone Wars are not hardened combatants, and most of them have spent more time focusing on resolving disputes and performing policing duties than they have spent preparing for war. Thus the heavy casualties we see early on in the Clone Wars. Their lightsaber combat has evolved, yes, but it has evolved to confront the threat of blaster wielding enemies, not lightsaber armed foes.

Then why do Jedi study lightsaber combat forms? The mastery of the PT Jedi proves you wrong.

Now since you have refused to answer some of my simple questions, I shall reiterate.

The Jedi Order experienced 300 years of peace before the Sith returned. So why was Kao Cen Darach able to hold his own against Vindican and Malgus- two Sith preparing for war their entire lives?

And why did the 1000 year peace create some of the best duelists of all time? Why was Yoda able to go toe-to-toe with Sidious if his skills are so weak? Why was Mace Windu able to beat Sidious in pure lightsaber combat?

And don't say Sidious suffered from the same supposed weakness that the Jedi did. Sidious is THE most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Aurbere, each time I was asking a question in my post it was mostly sarcastic or rhetorical.

Ok, I swear this'll be my last input as it does seem we're going in circles, but I'll try one last tactic.

We seem to have strayed far into the realm of Jedi philosophy here. Allow me to be clear. I do not care what makes a good Jedi, nor do I honestly care for the Jedi Code. Yoda is a pseudo-mystical pacifist spouting half-witted aphorisms the likes of which I often find on fortune cookies.

I should have stopped here. If you can't respect Yoda, your knowledge of the Jedi Order and the abilities of its members is poor or heavily biased to the point that it would be ridiculous to argue this at all.

The Jedi are indecisive, hypocritical, and pathetic. They claim to be peacekeepers and negotiators, and almost every situation they become involved in turns lethal. If, as StarSquirrel says, the Jedi of the PT Era are so wise and in tune with the Light side, why was Mace Windu's first response at Geonosis to initiate violence? Dooku offered them the chance to surrender, despite the Jedi never even considering negotiations for the release of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

It wasn't. It was Sidious's, ya know, the Sith acting as Chansellor of the Republic that the Jedi where sworn to defend?

But that's ancillary to my main point. I am discussing lightsaber abilities, not the philosophical merits of pacifism (something the Jedi conveniently discard whenever they like). Specifically, I am arguing that the dueling abilities of the Jedi Order had decayed considerably by the PT Era.

Common misconception, Jedi =/= Pacifists. Jedi are quite militant (they arm every member) but they know the cost of being aggressive. Thus they have a desire to exhaust all options first.

Those who argue that 1000 years of peace made the Jedi incredibly powerful are subscribing to a convenient logical fallacy. They fail to distinguish the development of the Jedi Order as a whole from the development of the individuals who comprise it. None of the Jedi we see in the PT Era have been alive for 1000 years, not even Yoda. What you fail to consider is that every Jedi, in all eras, has only a finite amount of time and energy. The passage of time is a constant, constraining every Jedi equally.

When we discuss PT and OR, we are at all times referring to each era at their peak. You seem to think we have fallen into this fallacy, but we've tried everything to be frank. We've compared both orders, members of both orders, history of both orders, and the effects of their time period on members of those orders. You just don't want to listen.

No one can be the master of everything, and it naturally stands to reason that someone who specializes their training will achieve greater expertise than someone who divides it over many areas. The fact that many PT Jedi Masters spent time studying many different forms does not automatically make them more skilled than someone who specialized. We clearly see Darth Vader (Form V specialist) easily dispatch Cin Drallig (Universalist, and Jedi Battlemaster. Someone who ought to be one of the best swordsmen in the Order). Exar Kun was a Niman specialist, and he is recognized as one of the best duelists ever.

 

Don't whine to me that he's a Sith. I don't care about Sith or Jedi, what I am concerned with are combat abilities with the lightsaber. If anything, it appears that Dark Side fuels more powerful duelists. Even Mace Windu taps into his inner darkness to become the best swordsman in the PT Era, so perhaps if the Jedi weren't so afraid of enjoying battle (Fear leads to blah blah blah, the Dark Side! Egads! Grow up children, even Luke Skywalker was wiling to use powers considered "dark" when he felt it necessary in the service of the Light) they would be able to tap into greater combat abilities.

I needed to put these together for the sake of everyone else. DEAR GOD MAN, did you read anything I said? I practically screamed that sith are better saber combatants. The Jedi of the OR era seem so great partially (certainly not wholly) because of their brushes with the Dark Side. Yes! yes of course Jedi in war can draw from the Dark Side. The problem is we're discussing Jedi, not Sith. If someone falls they are no longer a Jedi. Thus, if a former Jedi turned Sith becomes a powerful duelist, he is not a 'Jedi' duelist and representative of the OR era 'Jedi'. He's a Sith swordsman and should be treated as such, his power and training by that point are of the Dark Side and it isn't Jedi teachings that made him powerful. Cin Drallig lost because he was facing Anakin who was both far more powerful in the force and as already stated, an amazing duelist himself.

The Jedi who fought in the Great Galactic War, and the Army of Light, and the Jedi Civil War, and so forth had firsthand experience with lightsaber combat. They lived and breathed warfare, and if that means that many of them came close to the Dark Side, so be it. They were deadly combatants.

And if they fell, they where no longer Jedi and their power was proven to be of the Dark Side not of their 'Jedi' training.

The Jedi who entered the Clone Wars were completely inexperienced, with only a few possible exceptions. They were not magically trained in every aspect of combat. There was no reason for them to be.

Aside from those scholars and negotiators pressed into service very early and late into the war, the Clone War jedi where exceptional leaders and fighters. I have no clue where you got this idea.

They had limited time. Without a major threat, without a war going on, there was no impetus to excel at lightsaber combat. The only threat they needed to be prepared for was blaster fire, and they certainly didn't prepare their Niman practitioners for that!

Yoda had been preparing them. They drilled constantly and that's why they could master several forms instead of always trying to master a single form in the heat of battle.

The Stark Hyperspace War was a tiny conflict. There were five engagements, and most of the war took place inside of a single star system. More importantly, there were no enemy lightsaber combatants.

The Yinchorri uprising was also a minor hiccup of galactic event, when compared to crises like the Mandalorian Wars or the Great Galactic War.

So? Who cares? Of anything it reinforces the notion that Jedi of the PT era had more Peacetime training and the ability to test it small scale instead of being thrust into the front lines. If someone lives longer they'll learn more and be better. So many OR Jedi died because they where thrust onto the front lines and cut down as fodder by powerful Sith. Pt Jedi could make a small mistake, survive long enough to get an evac, and live to learn from it.

Despite all of this back and forth about the effects of war on Jedi, etc. etc. there still remains my original point. None of the PT Jedi had meaningful experience in lightsaber combat, and most of them died before ever engaging in a lightsaber duel with an enemy.

There still remains my point, They don't have to have meaningful comabt experience according to the Jedi Code. Saber dueling can be improved by battle experience, but training also improves one's abilities. You assume that experience will always be more powerful, but that's just not the case. You're entitled to your opinion, but in this case as it relates to Jedi, the Code wins out as a in-cannon fact.

In the days of Sith Empire, and other times of conflict, such duels were common on the battlefield. That is why the lightsaber forms were developed in the first place, and why they did not change significantly once those duels stopped being commonplace.

 

They say the Dark Side is the quick and easy path to power, and perhaps war encourages Jedi to tread close to the Dark Side. That's not my concern. What I'm debating here is their prowess with a lightsaber. If Jedi who experience prolonged war trade some connection to the Light Side for an affinity with the Dark Side, I don't really care. What matters is that their proficiency with a lightsaber will increase with their combat experience.

 

As an aside, -you said to cut this out -

Your mistake here is underestimating the power of the Dark Side. Specifically, the Dark Side relies on emotions to drive its followers. Heated emotions lead to recklessness and arrogance and a loss of calm and control. Jedi can win duels if they're patient and careful and use the Sith's/Dark Jedi's recklessness against them. Inevitably, a Jedi can not control how far into the Dark Side they go. Once they use it, it has a grip on them and they experience things like paranoia, unfounded rage, and increased arrogance (look at Anakin as an example, he dabbled with good intentions and got sucked right in).

I never said anything along those lines, and your attempts to extrapolate absurd theses out of my arguments reflects poorly on your reasoning skills. A PT Master would likely defeat a Knight from any era, based on his experience. I am strictly speaking of equal comparisons, a Knight from the Great Galactic War compared to a Knight during the PT Era, or a master, or a padawan. Logical comparisons between equally trained individuals.

Then PT still wins, just a lot closer. (see all previous arguments made)

Mace Windu is starting to sound like a moron. Victory in war is a concrete thing. Sometimes it is costly, and sometimes it is not. The side that emerges victorious is rarely the side that sacrificed more, but rather the side that forced the other guys to sacrifice more. If you make your enemy pay a heavier price than you do, you will be victorious.

War is not a state of mind. That doesn't even make sense. Sounds like more half-witted fortune cookie aphorisms to me.

I loled, American Civil War, WW1, WW2 are all instances where you'll find the winner's losses to be staggeringly higher than the looser's. Your insistence on insulting the greatest members of in-cannon lore is wearing on me, I am losing respect for any argument you are making.

Now, if my tone sounds sarcastic and a little acerbic, it's because the circular and inconsistent logic of the Jedi Code has begun to grate on my nerves. Kindly pay attention to my core arguments, which are that the PT Jedi have not seen lightsaber combat in a thousand years with the possible exceptions of Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn being forced to kill a darksider here or there.

Now we're getting somewhere! Yes, the Code grates on peoples nerves often (hence the reason a lot of Jedi left the order). Regardless, it is an in-universe statement of fact and truth regarding the Jedi Order (who officially out of universe has the correct view of the force) thus cannot be ignored. See you wont accept an argument because you don't like it. That's not acceptable for this discussion.

Given that the PT Jedi are not immortal, that they have limited training time, it only makes sense that they have devoted their studies to relevant threats. They did not have the time to perfect every aspect of lightsaber dueling, they were busy with other things. The "myth" that I am disproving is that the PT Jedi were these perfect demi-gods who had mastered everything known to the Jedi Order.

Then consider the myth disproven. PT era Jedi are not demi-gods (though the masters of that era come pretty close) but for average vs average we have conceded that an OR jedi could give a PT Jedi a run for his money in an even purely saber duel. While we still say PT will emerge winner in many, they would not win every fight. Also our insistence that Jedi of the PT era where well versed in so many forms and such where in comparison to the OR order's member's knowledge, not the whole of Jedi knowledge.

Again, individuals vs. the overall condition of the Order. Yes, the Jedi Order was in its prime. It was larger than ever before and was enjoying a thousand year peace. Times were good for the Order. Individuals still had to spend time training and learning, though. No one can learn everything, and time must be allotted accordingly. Just the way it was back in the older Eras.

 

So the individual Jedi we see enter the Clone Wars are not hardened combatants, and most of them have spent more time focusing on resolving disputes and performing policing duties than they have spent preparing for war. Thus the heavy casualties we see early on in the Clone Wars. Their lightsaber combat has evolved, yes, but it has evolved to confront the threat of blaster wielding enemies, not lightsaber armed foes.

Early in the Clone Wars, the Jedi where fighting hordes of droids all the time. They died purely of being overwhelmed and also like I said early in the war many of the negotiators and scholars where pressed into service until the warriors could be assembled, organized, and brought up to the lines to lead. As it was, any Jedi early in the war was better than no Jedi.

Edit:

"even Luke Skywalker was wiling to use powers considered "dark" when he felt it necessary in the service of the Light) they would be able to tap into greater combat abilities.

What did I say about this? (or rather did he?)

"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil."

―Luke Skywalker, near the beginning of the Second Galactic Civil War

Aurbere, each time I was asking a question in my post it was mostly sarcastic or rhetorical.

 

Ok, I swear this'll be my last input as it does seem we're going in circles, but I'll try one last tactic.

I want an honest answer, but I know the answer I get won't be very good.

Anyway, I think I'm done here.

Suffice to say, there is no myth.

I want an honest answer, but I know the answer I get won't be very good.

 

Anyway, I think I'm done here.

 

Suffice to say, there is no myth.

Aurbere, That was me, StarSquirrel you just quoted... So uh, yeah I think that was aimed at Vent. We seem to use similar colors now I guess.

And what you quoted was in reference to the whole "Some Jedi are immune to the Dark Side right?" question in my previous post. I was saying yeah I know they aren't and proceeded to explain why int he next paragraph.

Aurbere, That was me, StarSquirrel you just quoted... So uh, yeah I think that was aimed at Vent. We seem to use similar colors now I guess.

 

And what you quoted was in reference to the whole "Some Jedi are immune to the Dark Side right?" question in my previous post. I was saying yeah I know they aren't and proceeded to explain why int he next paragraph.

I know you did, I was just adding my input like you asked.

But I'm not very good with colors, so if I misquoted you anywhere, sorry.

I'm getting mixed up here I think. Guess it's mostly fatigue from dealing with this thread.

I know you did, I was just adding my input like you asked.

 

But I'm not very good with colors, so if I misquoted you anywhere, sorry.

 

I'm getting mixed up here I think. Guess it's mostly fatigue from dealing with this thread.

Ah, no problem I understand. I've been in it less than you have and I'm feeling tired with it as well.

Though Vent truly did lead us on a merry chase for a bit until it boiled down to whether he believed our sources or if he'll toss them out again.

Ah, no problem I understand. I've been in it less than you have and I'm feeling tired with it as well.

 

Though Vent truly did lead us on a merry chase for a bit until it boiled down to whether he believed our sources or if he'll toss them out again.

Definitely pushed me to the limits of my sanity. I had to go through many of my books for sources and information to prove him wrong.

I'm really tired of this debate. I've gone through it so many times.

Definitely pushed me to the limits of my sanity. I had to go through many of my books for sources and information to prove him wrong.

 

I'm really tired of this debate. I've gone through it so many times.

Yeah, heck I rehashed the old "Bane and Rule of Two is stupid" threads to prove the who "Old Sith are better" line wrong again so I wouldn't have to explain it myself.

Thankfully, now that we've done this we can just cite it every time someone asks about PT vs OR. I'd really rather not type all that up again and I can imagine that goes double (or triple) for you and beni.

Yeah, heck I rehashed the old "Bane and Rule of Two is stupid" threads to prove the who "Old Sith are better" line wrong again so I wouldn't have to explain it myself.

 

Thankfully, now that we've done this we can just cite it every time someone asks about PT vs OR. I'd really rather not type all that up again and I can imagine that goes double (or triple) for you and beni.

That's the truth. I would hate to type everything I have all over again. Which is one of the reasons why I am done debating this, because I know that I would have to do it again.

There are still things that were said that I disgree with - and some that I think are plain wrong:

(and I think I could site some pretty strong Canon that would support my views)

and certain things may be due to a lack of having enough knowledege (by that I mean certain things in the OR may not have been fleshed out that well) - thats why I don't really get involved in Revan vs debates - because I try to base things on actual facts of the specific individuals that are being compared...

When I asked the question - canonically What Lightsaber style or styles did Revan use? neither Revan fanboy or Revan hater could answer that - so as far as I was concerned I didn't have enough to go on to give a genuine comparisson......

but he obviously did have a Lightsaber style (maybe styles) but it hasn't really been delved into that much - I am not sure what style the Exile did either - but if the game is some sort of canon, then she had training in all the styles so conceivably be a master of multiple styles.....but again - I don't know for sure

However - this passage was a reasonable enough concession:

Then consider the myth disproven. PT era Jedi are not demi-gods (though the masters of that era come pretty close) but for average vs average we have conceded that an OR jedi could give a PT Jedi a run for his money in an even purely saber duel. While we still say PT will emerge winner in many, they would not win every fight. Also our insistence that Jedi of the PT era where well versed in so many forms and such where in comparison to the OR order's member's knowledge, not the whole of Jedi knowledge.

And kind of all I really wanted - I just hated the PT Jedi Wall and any kind of debate to just be dismissed out of hand -because PT Jedi would beat any other Jedi/Sith without people actually giving proper analysis to the strengths and weaknesses of the people being compared - And Masters like Kit Fisto for example, to me - would warrant debating in a fair few matchups...

So I am not going to go into any of the things that I may disagree on - and I will leave this debate to rest

We don't want another one of our Savage Opress / General Grievous type of debates on top of all of this.....

I think it was overall handled well by everyone and nothing ever got personal - So hey it's all cool

I could kind of see where Ventessel was coming from - and good on him too for asking the questions - I would take him on as my Apprentice in a 'Rule of Two' Sith Order (Obviously I have to be the Master)

ps. and a Welcome back to Rayla - while I may not always agree - I do learn a hell of a lot of stuff from her posts (same with Aubere and Beni)

What am I chopped liver? But eh, have nothing really to add at this point.

Lol sorry Wolfninjajedi - you as well....... I guess its just that Ninja part - you temporarily evaded my perception you are like eeer... a Shadow... a Shadow in the night (and that's worth 2 cigars)

Strange. I have not seen 'size matters not' on a fortune cookiee. You must tell me where you get your fortune cookiees.

From the shadier establishments in Shangai, but not so shady that they water down the tequila (if you pay American).

How about General Grievous? He's a living weapon and yet he's been bested by the Jedi that have no experience. And trust me, Grievous has plenty of experience.

YOU: Cyborgs don't count!

I would appreciate if you refrained from putting words in my mouth.

Maybe if you knew the circumstance of the Geonosis Arena, you wouldn't be so quick to judge. How many droids were they fighting? Thousands? Two hundred Jedi vs. thousands of droids. And like you said, many of them practiced Niman. Does this suddenly make them inferior? No. Considering how badly they were outnumbered, I'd say that it is no surprise that many Jedi were killed.

This gets back to my earlier points about instinct and experience. There is a certain tactical know-how which comes with combat experience, which is not all about how fast and accurate you are with a weapon, but rather in your spacing and placement throughout an engagement. The Jedi fought poorly, not on an individual level so much as on a unit level. They allowed themselves to be surrounded and on the low ground. Experienced troops don't let that happen.

I did that with Satele and Yoda, and you ranted about me not having proof. Well the proof is in the pudding. I compared an OR Grand Master with a PT Grand Master and proved the latter's superiority. You then ranted that they never fought and thus it could not be proven.

The same argument can be used against you. A PT Jedi and an OR Jedi never fought, and thus victory for either side can not be proven. You basically killed this debate with that argument.

I am against judging an entire order based on the comparison of two unique individuals. I am not opposed to a hypothetical comparison of "average knight vs. average knight" because this minimizes the outside variables aside from training and experience. Think of it as the distillation of a particular generation's experience.

I needed to put these together for the sake of everyone else. DEAR GOD MAN, did you read anything I said? I practically screamed that sith are better saber combatants. The Jedi of the OR era seem so great partially (certainly not wholly) because of their brushes with the Dark Side. Yes! yes of course Jedi in war can draw from the Dark Side. The problem is we're discussing Jedi, not Sith. If someone falls they are no longer a Jedi. Thus, if a former Jedi turned Sith becomes a powerful duelist, he is not a 'Jedi' duelist and representative of the OR era 'Jedi'. He's a Sith swordsman and should be treated as such, his power and training by that point are of the Dark Side and it isn't Jedi teachings that made him powerful. Cin Drallig lost because he was facing Anakin who was both far more powerful in the force and as already stated, an amazing duelist himself.

Ah, and now I begin to understand your reasoning. If we make that consideration, then many of your arguments fall into a different light. This is a line of reasoning I can agree with, then.

But, then there's this...

Mace Windu's Vaapad form allowed him to use the Dark Side as a tool for the Light. Luke Skywalker is Luke Skywalker.

How do these concepts reconcile themselves with the Jedi philosophy as a whole?

I should have stopped here. If you can't respect Yoda, your knowledge of the Jedi Order and the abilities of its members is poor or heavily biased to the point that it would be ridiculous to argue this at all.

There is no iron law that I must respect Yoda because others consider him wise. His mastery of the Force is impressive, and while I wouldn't use that word to describe his crack-monkey combat style, it is effective in its own way. But wise, Master Yoda is not. We'll debate that some other time, though...

In my opinion, Jedi like Jolee Bindo and Luke Skywalker (in his later, mature years) demonstrate actual wisdom. I like this quotation that you picked out, it's one of those rare moments when a fictional character makes a statement that is genuinely timeless and true.

"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil."

―Luke Skywalker, near the beginning of the Second Galactic Civil War

So you would have the Jedi abandon their beliefs to make themselves better warriors? You remind me of a young Jedi, tainted by war and willing to do whatever it takes to win.

I would indeed. Admittedly, I would make a unconventional Jedi, since I spent my formative years being taught that there was no substitute for Victory (with a capital "V") and having the mantra "it pays to be a winner" instilled in me. I admire Mace Windu's willingness to channel aggression when fighting because I have been taught that you either fight, or you do not. (Do, or do not. Just apply that to killing and you've got my combat philosophy in a nutshell) And sometimes, you'll want prisoners, necessitating nonlethal weapons.

I think it was overall handled well by everyone and nothing ever got personal - So hey it's all cool

I could kind of see where Ventessel was coming from - and good on him too for asking the questions - I would take him on as my Apprentice in a 'Rule of Two' Sith Order (Obviously I have to be the Master)

An interesting proposition, but aside from my opinion that the "Rule of Two" was more of a stop-gap measure (and frequently violated by its adherents), you would find that I am much more of a Grey Jedi.

Then consider the myth disproven. PT era Jedi are not demi-gods (though the masters of that era come pretty close) but for average vs average we have conceded that an OR jedi could give a PT Jedi a run for his money in an even purely saber duel. While we still say PT will emerge winner in many, they would not win every fight. Also our insistence that Jedi of the PT era where well versed in so many forms and such where in comparison to the OR order's member's knowledge, not the whole of Jedi knowledge.

However - this passage was a reasonable enough concession:

And kind of all I really wanted - I just hated the PT Jedi Wall and any kind of debate to just be dismissed out of hand -because PT Jedi would beat any other Jedi/Sith without people actually giving proper analysis to the strengths and weaknesses of the people being compared

Precisely. I sense a kindred spirit in you, fellblade. This "Wall" that you're talking about is essentially the myth I've been railing against during this debate.

PS: Yeh, I'm back.

But now I have to ask? Where is MasterMe?

In response to this on-going debate. I still hold the view that the 'Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians' is in fact truth - but Ventessel has raised some good points as to why it is only to an extent.

However ultimately, despite having a wealth of combat experience, the negative, capping effects that prolonged war has on a Jedi, both through the chaotic whirlwind of emotions that surrounds them, and the growing presence of the dark side, those Jedi can only become so powerful.

Only though times of peace can a Jedi reach their full potential, this is not to say a Jedi is weakened by war, as Vent points out this would make the Jedi highly ineffective guardians of the Republic if they were averse to the concept of battle. However, it can still be held that a Jedi can never achieve full potential in times of war, they may have enough strength and skill to defeat their opponents, but that strength will always be limited.

As such, the PT Order is largely more skilled with the lightsaber than a Jedi of the OR era or any other era before. Simply because they are able to come closer to the Force and have done so, producing the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history.

However ultimately, despite having a wealth of combat experience, the negative, capping effects that prolonged war has on a Jedi, both through the chaotic whirlwind of emotions that surrounds them, and the growing presence of the dark side, those Jedi can only become so powerful.

 

Only though times of peace can a Jedi reach their full potential, this is not to say a Jedi is weakened by war, as Vent points out this would make the Jedi highly ineffective guardians of the Republic if they were averse to the concept of battle. However, it can still be held that a Jedi can never achieve full potential in times of war, they may have enough strength and skill to defeat their opponents, but that strength will always be limited.

 

As such, the PT Order is largely more skilled with the lightsaber than a Jedi of the OR era or any other era before. Simply because they are able to come closer to the Force and have done so, producing the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history.

If we hold this to mean Jedi strictly drawing from the Light Side of the Force, then I would agree with your statement, based on earlier distinctions drawn as to what defines a Jedi.

Of course, this still raises the glaring question of how Luke Skywalker becomes so powerful. He's experienced very little peace in his time...

In response to this on-going debate. I still hold the view that the 'Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians' is in fact truth - but Ventessel has raised some good points as to why it is only to an extent.

 

However ultimately, despite having a wealth of combat experience, the negative, capping effects that prolonged war has on a Jedi, both through the chaotic whirlwind of emotions that surrounds them, and the growing presence of the dark side, those Jedi can only become so powerful.

 

Only though times of peace can a Jedi reach their full potential, this is not to say a Jedi is weakened by war, as Vent points out this would make the Jedi highly ineffective guardians of the Republic if they were averse to the concept of battle. However, it can still be held that a Jedi can never achieve full potential in times of war, they may have enough strength and skill to defeat their opponents, but that strength will always be limited.

 

As such, the PT Order is largely more skilled with the lightsaber than a Jedi of the OR era or any other era before. Simply because they are able to come closer to the Force and have done so, producing the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history.

^Well said

Of course, this still raises the glaring question of how Luke Skywalker becomes so powerful. He's experienced very little peace in his time...

He was like Anakin, a very quick learner and not only did he learn from Obi-Wan and Yoda.(I mean he made it to Jedi Knight within the span of what? 3 years? Something which takes a decade at least.) But he also learned from holocrons, journals, other Jedi/force sensitives across the galaxy, etc etc. It isn't like he woke up one day, and became uber powerful, he went across the galaxy and learned from all over.

He was like Anakin, a very quick learner and not only did he learn from Obi-Wan and Yoda.(I mean he made it to Jedi Knight within the span of what? 3 years? Something which takes a decade at least.) But he also learned from holocrons, journals, other Jedi/force sensitives across the galaxy, etc etc. It isn't like he woke up one day, and became uber powerful, he went across the galaxy and learned from all over.

I didn't really answer this immediately because it's not totally on topic, but it is an interesting point.

Luke's training of the New Jedi Order is something of a novelty. I can see a lot of similarities to the Jedi Exile's work in rebuilding the Order following the First Jedi Purge, except that the Exile had 300 years of peace to do so, while Luke was working during almost constant galactic warfare.

Jedi of the NJO were initially trained in the "Fast, Medium, Strong" styles developed by Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, and Luke Skywalker in the years following the Battle of Endor. Eventually they uncovered most of the older styles, and we know that Luke was trained in at least Djem So and Ataru by Yoda prior to his battle with Darth Vader onboard DSII.

The Jedi of Luke Skywalker's order seemed to be more readily militant than prior Jedi. They frequently trained together as fighter wings, and Luke even adapted the Jedi Code to omit the phrase "never to attack others". I think that this represented a fundamental shift in the philosophy of the new Jedi that Luke was training. Any comments, theories?