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''Lol Pandas''...(and the hubris of the commnitty)


Angedechu

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The point being that the ''Lol Pandas''-that were widely derided as ''that will kill WOW'' have not prevented WOW to still have 7.6 millions sub (including asian ones, yes, I know) at the end of the expansion cycle While TOR, whose launch was very soon after the Pandas announcement crashed and burned.

 

So, obviously, Blizzard did something better than Bioware.

 

It's a sunk time thing. People have invested years of their lives in to WoW. Why would they leave WoW for a reskin (as much as I LOVE SWTOR, take away the Voice Acting and Star Wars and it's just WoW in space)?

 

The only thing that could have beaten WoW was a completely different game, not a WoW with better graphics, the SW IP and voice acting.

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First of all, where do you get this statement that the forums were sure that TOR would utterly destroy WOW? That's a general, baseless statement. I'm sure some people said that....just like some people said Diablo 3 or Guild Wars would be the end of this game. But, certainly the majority of people in the forums weren't saying that and no one with any common sense thought that this game would put WOW out of business.

 

In March of 2011, WOW had 11.4 million subs. If WOW is now down to 7.6 million subs, then they've lost 1/3 of their subs in that time. If you think Blizzard is happy with that or patting themselves on the back over that, then I have some swamp land in Florida for sale that might interest you.

 

Well, losing a third of the subs over two years (and in 2011, WOW was seven years old) is a far better performance than losing 75% of the subs over six months (from a game not even a year old)

Edited by Angedechu
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(1)The point being that the ''Pandas'' were widely ridiculed, and yet, at the end of the expansion, WOW still have between three and four times more sub than TOR at it's prime.

 

WoW was an anomaly. The sooner people get that through their heads, the better. You CANNOT base the success/failure of a MMO off of WoW's numbers.

 

WoW was released during a void in the 3D MMO community. At the time, EQ1 was the only major 3D MMO (UO was not 3D, only 2D with an overlay) and had been out about 5 years before WoW released. EQ2 was slated for release right after WoW, but a lot of EQ1 players were angry that they could not port their characters.

 

On top of this, at the time WoW was released, gaming in general was still considered 'nerd territory' or 'bachelor's territory'. Gaming was in no way mainstream outside those two subsets. Between WoW's ease of use (aka 'facerolling') and things like the Wii, gaming has become more and more accepted in general.

 

And WoW's facerolling was a large factor, coupled with it's coloring. Before WoW MMO gaming required some kind of skill, and there was an actual community of members who kept each other in check. Outcasts played with outcasts. WoW made gaming easier and acting like a tool acceptable, which drew in more players.

 

Now that other MMOs are following suit, there will not be a void in the genre again for at least another decade, if ever. On top of that, some players are still with WoW either because other MMOs don't go far enough to be different, are different enough to require thought (a difficult thing for some to manage) or simply because they don't want to give up a character they 'worked' on for years.

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It's a sunk time thing. People have invested years of their lives in to WoW. Why would they leave WoW for a reskin (as much as I LOVE SWTOR, take away the Voice Acting and Star Wars and it's just WoW in space)?

 

The only thing that could have beaten WoW was a completely different game, not a WoW with better graphics, the SW IP and voice acting.

 

For this statement to be true, WoW had to have invented the style of MMO this game is based off of....sadly what the majority of people who say this fail to realize....is that WOW DIDNT INVENT THIS STYLE OF MMO, they copied it from MMOs that were successful in the past.

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As an aside, I don't expect it to 'beat' WoW or be a 'WoW-killer' but if Everquest Next comes off as planned it will be different enough to sucker punch the entire genre.

 

* True, self-adjusting AI (check out Storybricks)

* Dynamic world, including destroyable environment, public quests that have permanent effects on the server and NPCs that not only roam but have their own storylines and conversations (with other NPCs)

* Player-generated content, not only with cash shop items (which you can make RL money selling) but also the world itself (for items vetted by SoE).

* Lack of player levels, replaced by multiple progression lines

 

A full 50% of the future of EQN will be placed in the hands of players. On top of that, with the public quests and dynamic world, 2 different servers will actually be DIFFERENT. Cities, bosses and NPCs will be different, some not existing at all and some having 'evolved' beyond the other.

 

If it comes off as planned.

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First of all, where do you get this statement that the forums were sure that TOR would utterly destroy WOW? That's a general, baseless statement.

 

You can click "last page" on the general forums and work your way forward, there's a LOT of threads like that from 2011.

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It may sound narrow minded, but frankly, I don't care what WoW and "Lol Pandas" is doing. My play here has nothing to do with WoW. For me it is a different game, and a different IP.

 

OP every new MMO is supposed to be the (insert your game here) killer. It is not. This type of hubris is seen in every forum and cycled through various games. So... what is this thread really about?

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As an aside, I don't expect it to 'beat' WoW or be a 'WoW-killer' but if Everquest Next comes off as planned it will be different enough to sucker punch the entire genre.

 

* True, self-adjusting AI (check out Storybricks)

* Dynamic world, including destroyable environment, public quests that have permanent effects on the server and NPCs that not only roam but have their own storylines and conversations (with other NPCs)

* Player-generated content, not only with cash shop items (which you can make RL money selling) but also the world itself (for items vetted by SoE).

* Lack of player levels, replaced by multiple progression lines

 

A full 50% of the future of EQN will be placed in the hands of players. On top of that, with the public quests and dynamic world, 2 different servers will actually be DIFFERENT. Cities, bosses and NPCs will be different, some not existing at all and some having 'evolved' beyond the other.

 

If it comes off as planned.

 

I'm really looking forward to both the core game and the world-building Landmark side-game. But knowing how SOE does things, it'll be awesome out the gate, something gets ruined by Sony directly in the first few months, and everything they did is done better by another company in 2015. :(

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Well, losing a third of the subs over two years (and in 2011, WOW was seven years old) is a far better performance than losing 75% of the subs over six months (from a game not even a year old)

 

You're right OP. Thanks for telling me all this -- i'm quitting SWTOR right now and heading to WoW! Thanks man!!!!

 

Seriously, what the heck is this post all about?

 

I mean I could go to thw WoW Forum and tell them how I hate their game, but that would be really ignorant of me, don't you think?

 

oh....wait.....

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It may sound narrow minded, but frankly, I don't care what WoW and "Lol Pandas" is doing. My play here has nothing to do with WoW. For me it is a different game, and a different IP.

 

OP every new MMO is supposed to be the (insert your game here) killer. It is not. This type of hubris is seen in every forum and cycled through various games. So... what is this thread really about?

 

That's an awesome question. Maybe OP will only play a game that is the market leader and just wanted to verify whether or not swtor is leading the market. :t_eek:

 

I don't understand these threads, either. Who cares which game has more subs? I only care that the game is up and running and even still being updated and expanded. That's what matters to me. That and whether it is still fun to play.

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I'm really looking forward to both the core game and the world-building Landmark side-game. But knowing how SOE does things, it'll be awesome out the gate, something gets ruined by Sony directly in the first few months, and everything they did is done better by another company in 2015. :(

 

I think, this time, they're learning and playing the greed card in a smart way. Not only are they pushing a lot of development off on players (spinning it as world-building, etc) but they're also giving players a cut of the profits from sales of player-made cash shop items. both will draw in a community of non-player crafters and designers that provide what amounts to free labor.

 

But they're making both appealing, and I think it's a good thing. SoE may bork things up, but they kept is secret long enough so that by the time another company has the player-accessible engine available to be able to do the same things, EQN will be around long enough to have a solid, dedicated base.

 

You have a very valid point but I think that, with the major changes SoE is making int he way this MMO is handled, the old rules for forecasting no longer apply. It may not kill any other MMO but it will make it's own mark...

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You have a very valid point but I think that, with the major changes SoE is making int he way this MMO is handled, the old rules for forecasting no longer apply. It may not kill any other MMO but it will make it's own mark...

 

Very good.

 

And you are correct, they would not handle this game that way, even if they started now. Star Wars has lore to think about. Dynamic changes to the world, controlled by players, would chip away quickly at the lore. This one is an interactive story... not a dynamic world.

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There is no such thing as a WoW killer. Blizzard was in the right place, at the right time, with the right game. When WoW dies, many years from now, it will be due to attrition in the game as all of the Outland and WotLK players will have moved on in their lives. Either to the next "greatest" game or simply starting families and reorganizing their priorities.

 

If anything injured WoW, it was Cataclysm. If anything is hurting SWTOR, it is a lack of community outside of the game. Blizzards forums are much more active then Biowares. The player base has thoroughly cataloged and documented every aspect of the game, both by decrypting the game files for graphics and models as well as recording drop rates for gear. There are even sites that record sales data from the AH and ways of number crunching your characters gear and spec offline.

 

The fact that SWTOR is still open to the public is testament to its potential. But I think Bioware needs to embrace the community and release a real expansion by the time the new car smell evaporates from WoW's next expansion.

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Yea, folks in the forums back then were pretty strongly divided between the "appearance, minigame, space combat, housing, F2P, market" crowd and the "progression, end game, visual progression, time sink, hardcore, wow killer" crowd.

 

The lines were clear. One side wanted more alternative gameplay elements, appearance, etc while another thought the game needed more traditional MMO elements, needed to be harder, and would kill WoW.

 

The hardcore crowd won naturally, and the game fell flat on it's face as a result.

 

I think that crowd is mostly gone, the casuals remain. The folks that predicted the game would do exactly what it did...shed players, go F2P, launch a market, and RELAX it's draconian restrictions.

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I was a huge fan of WoW, but I haven't been able to level even one single toon through Pandaria. I *********** hate that expansion.

 

They also introduced CRZ and for me, that was the deal breaker. I dropped my sub with then early this year and don't plan to go back. Even if they release a new expansion after Panda's I still won't go back because I'll probably have to level through Pandaria before I can do the new expansion, and that won't happen.

Edited by Glowrod
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Yea, folks in the forums back then were pretty strongly divided between the "appearance, minigame, space combat, housing, F2P, market" crowd and the "progression, end game, visual progression, time sink, hardcore, wow killer" crowd.

 

The lines were clear. One side wanted more alternative gameplay elements, appearance, etc while another thought the game needed more traditional MMO elements, needed to be harder, and would kill WoW.

 

The hardcore crowd won naturally, and the game fell flat on it's face as a result.

 

I think that crowd is mostly gone, the casuals remain. The folks that predicted the game would do exactly what it did...shed players, go F2P, launch a market, and RELAX it's draconian restrictions.

TOR is a story-driven, PvE-centric, theme-park MMO. It has always been the realm of "casuals."

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The point being that the ''Lol Pandas''-that were widely derided as ''that will kill WOW'' have not prevented WOW to still have 7.6 millions sub (including asian ones, yes, I know) at the end of the expansion cycle While TOR, whose launch was very soon after the Pandas announcement crashed and burned.

 

So, obviously, Blizzard did something better than Bioware.

 

That is not true. This means that people making predictions were wrong and should be denied internet access privileges. :rak_03:

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SNIP...

So, obviously, Blizzard did something better than Bioware.

 

 

They did do something right before pandas. Something that netted them 12 million players and players that do not want to quit playing MMOs. Especially one that that have so much invested in after so long.

 

Now they have 7.6 million. A loss of more players than most games even have playing. Pandas hurt WOW. You don't lose 4.4 million subs cause it great.

 

However, you will retain 7.6 million customers, losing on small portions at a time (this time 100K subs) if they are hooked on the game and don't want to give up what they have worked on for 6+ years.

Edited by Quraswren
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TOR is a story-driven, PvE-centric, theme-park MMO. It has always been the realm of "casuals."

 

It was supposed to be the realm of casuals. Instead it tried to make everyone happy and ended up making no one happy IMO.

 

They failed to understand that casuals value appearance and alternative gameplay elements, QoL and the leveling experience.

They failed to understand that hardcores value unique armor sets, robust endgame and burn through content quickly.

 

Now it has much wider appeal IMO. It should have been as it is now at launch. I believe it would not have lost so many players.

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However, you will retain 7.6 million customers, losing on small portions at a time (this time 100K subs) if they are hooked on the game and don't want to give up what they have worked on for 6+ years.

 

This. Video games, especially MMOs, are like drugs. This is backed up by the fact there's an argument whether it should be added to the PDR or not. Like drugs, some people will be able to handle them responsibly and others will become addicts. Also like drugs, some will constantly search for something better to get a bigger high, others will quit all together and the last group will stick to what they know, even if their high lessens over time.

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Keep in mind that MMOs are not like most products there is a sunk cost in quitting and moving to a new game is hard to do unless you convince your friends to leave with you. That more than anything has kept wow chugging along. Now I know the idea has been LOL pandas, but the zones and graphics of the xpac were nicely done, and the encounters better than any of the other expansions as well as different things to do while leveling.

 

What's hitting WoW isn't a bad expac, but people coming off a multi-year pizza binge and seeing other games that are more focused on different things. WoW was for many people in the West their first MMO, and it did abit of everything. Other MMOs are going to succeed based on doing the parts of the game that people liked most about WoW better, not by trying to be WoW. This means smaller numbers but better focused games.

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