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Madness / Balance Set Bonuses and Tactical Items


EricMusco

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  • Dev Post

Hey folks,

 

Following our Onslaught announcement at SW Celebration we want to start diving into feedback right away. I want to use this thread to talk about Tactical Item effects and Set Bonuses for Madness and Balance Disciplines. Our goal for set bonuses is to introduce new bonuses, and potentially with even new sizes so you can mix and match. Tactical Items are a new item type that is meant to be build defining and most likely to directly impact how an ability works. For inspiration here are two completely made up Chain Lightning Examples:

  1. Chain Lightning now does all of its total damage to only one target, and no longer jumps.
  2. Chain Lightning now jumps even more and does additional damage to secondary targets.

 

That would allow you to take a standard ability and allow it to be modified to fit your playstyle. Please use this thread to brainstorm ideas and make as many recommendations as you would like! For context:

  • Tactical Items: These should modify one of your Advanced Class/Discipline abilities to work differently. The goal is for you to use the ability in situations you previously wouldn’t (more often, against specific targets, etc)
  • Set Bonuses: These should be focused on the broader “kind of tools” your class uses, but not specific abilities. Some examples are sets that center around bleeds, force damage, lightning, shields, cover, and so on.

Set bonuses, tacticals, both, let us know what you would like to see. I may not respond frequently in this thread but know that I am going to be compiling everything and sending it over to the team.

 

-eric

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Tactical Item. Death Field does not spreading DoTs anymore, but critical damage bonus of Death Field and DoTs increased by X% (Pestilence changes)

 

PvP Madness Set Bonus

2-p Reduces cooldown of Demolish by 1.5 seconds. Demolish damage heal you for 0.5% of max health

4-p Force Speed gives 4 stacks of Wrath, Static Barrier on self is off-GCD

6-p Increases Recklessness charges by 1, Phase Walk increases healing by 25% for the next 6 seconds.

8-p Reduces all damage taken while hindered by 15%. If you are E-Netted, then you cant be netted again for a certain amount of time.

 

A couple of QOL changes/fixes:

- Phase Walk gives about 1-2s of 100% damage immunity. It's quite silly to be killed by some random hits after out of range and LoS.

- Remove Phase Walk casting time

- Phase Walk does not cancel when "hindered" or out of range.

- SI periodic damaging effects don't tick on targets affected by Whirlwind

- Increase the number of Deathmark stacks to 20

- "Using Phase Walk to return to its marked location grants <buff> keeping you from being leapt to or pulled for 4 seconds."

- "Wrath causes your next Lightning Strike, Crushing Darkness or Demolish to activate instantly, consume 50% less Force and deals 35%(up from 20%) more damage."

Currently spamming FL looks like is a better choice DPS wise than LS.

- Change Fulminating Current to15 seconds(up from 10 seconds), because a slight interruption can cause you to lose buff(which happens quite a lot)

- Remove Dark Echo. Most useless skill ever.

 

Last edited Ap'19

Edited by EmperorRus
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I'm sure most of these ideas are problematic in terms of balancing ... but I think they would be cool XD

 

Force Armor & Static Barrier seem like an ability that could be changed in interesting ways. Though there are already the talents that modify it, in the spirit of making "tactical" changes:

 

Perhaps force armor becomes a single toggle (like guard) that can only be placed on ourselves, preventing the "bubbling" of other characters, while providing a flat, permanent damage reduction, rather than full absorption up to the damage threshold. In raids, as a dps sage, my force armor is useless if there is another sage healing. Having a flat damage reduction for myself would be a powerful tactical modification of force armor. I also think I would use something like this in PvP, since sage's excel at dealing with low damage over time, but struggle to go toe-to-toe with more directly resilient classes.

 

 

More/some usage of light saber abilities are also something I would enjoy on my sage and sorc.

 

Perhaps a tactical item could turn saber slash into a saber throw? Coupled with the top tier root talent, this would be an incredibly strong tactical option for PvP, and would make that talent actually useful.

 

Or, perhaps disturbance could be changed into a TK powered saber strike that is melee ranged (4m) but does more damage, or does less damage but w/ a decent knockback (5m?)

 

 

A few other random ideas:

 

TK throw/Force Lightning could be modified to siphon a % of dmg to the caster but deal a bit less damage, or become 100% siphon abilities that deal significantly less damage.

 

Groundquake could be modified to root enemies while filling their resolve bar equal to the length of the rooting, allowing maybe 12 seconds of consecutive rooting at most (since it wouldn't actually stun).

 

 

Sage/sorc defensive cooldowns don't really allow for going toe-to-toe in PvP. It would be really nice if we had something on a 3 min cooldown that allowed us to fight on a node and temporarily stop kiting.

 

Ever since DoTs become uncleansable, the "cleanse" ability has been useless outside of raid boss mechanics. The sage/sorc cleanse could be a *great* ability to heavily modify with tactical items. It seems like a prime candidate to become a dcd by increasing the ability cooldown relative to the power of the defensive boost it provides. I think sages could benefit from a 1.5 minute cooldown defensive abilitiy, providing modest defense (something akin to saber ward).

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It would be really nice if we had something on a 3 min cooldown that allowed us to fight on a node and temporarily stop kiting.

Agreed. Something actually useful, something "hindered free"

 

 

I am going to be compiling everything and sending it over to the team.

 

-eric

 

Right now, the optimal Madness rotation s clunky as hell and requires you to clip a Force Lightning. Please, do something.

Edited by EmperorRus
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A few Ideas for Madness Tactical slots:

 

 

 

1. Using phase walk leaves behind a Force Ghost that "Corrupts" targets within 10 meters, causing them to take x% more damage from Periodic Damaging Effects. After x seconds the Force Ghost will detonate dealing x damage to targets within 5 meters. Using Phase Walk again while the Ghost is active will detonate the Ghost, ending the corruption and dealing x Damage to all enemies within 5 meters.

 

 

 

2. While Polarity Shift is active, using Death Field will "Detonate" Periodic Damage effects on the target, immediately dealing X damage per DOT-Tick remaining. The Periodic Damaging effects are then replaced with weaker versions of the DOTs (Similar to what happens when Virulence DOTs fall off of a target.) that cannot be detonated. Also, Unnatural Preservation Increases healing received from Periodic Damaging Effects by x% for 6 seconds.

I know that a lot of the posts so far on the Sorc/Sage have been in the interest of making them "Less Squishy" or have "More instants". Honestly, I think this destroys the purpose of playing a Sorc/Sage to begin with. I main a sorc and I have since 2.0, and probably longer, but the Sorc is meant to be a glass cannon, not a weirdly tanky god of death. I know that most every change has to be filtered through the lens of both PVE and PVP (A point of no small contention to parties on either side of that divide) but I would honestly love to be a raid-viable DPS first, survival-god second. Just my two cents.

 

I know that this is sort of off- topic, but I would really also like to see a few QOL changes made to the sorc as well.

 

 

 

Firstly, in Madness I would love to have Force Storm grant Wrath stacks per tick. There are a lot of times that the whole rotation is derailed due to having to AOE in a fight, potentially delaying the next demolish. Even if this came at the cost of some Force Storm damage in the discipline, I feel like this is a reasonable accommodation.

 

 

 

Next, I would like to see some change that makes Lightning Strike more appealing to use for Wrath. Lightning Strike, per GCD is barely better than Force Lightning, and since some patch (I forget which one) it doesn’t even have a chance to PROC Lightning Burns anymore. Before, the fact that it had a much higher chance to apply Lightning Burns made Lightning Strike more appealing, but as of now it just serves as a break from endless Force Lightning. I really have no suggestion as to what to do to make it better, but just something.

 

 

One of the things that I really want to stress is that for specs like Lightning, Madness, and a lot of others that I have played, is that there are already enough/ too many rotational abilities. Nothing quite so extreme as Fury/ Rage, but it exists on the Sorc. I hope that as an option we aren't just going to add more abilities to an already cluttered rotation.

Edited by kerplunkcatt
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I dont mind being a bit of a glass cannon, but for a glass canon to work in pvp it needs to be able to kite effectivly. I would like something similar to operative roll that can remove negative effects and be invul while effective.

 

I also want phase walk to work anytime, hindered or not

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I would like something similar to operative roll that can remove negative effects and be invul while effective.

 

Palpatine Dash: Madly dash forward 30 meters, dealing X weapon damage to enemies in your path and increasing your defense chance by 100% while dashing.

 

:D

 

 

Tactical Item #2

Whirlwind before: "Traps the target in a whirlwind for X seconds. Non-player, non-standard, and non-weak targets heal rapidly while trapped. Damage causes this effect to end prematurely."

 

Cooldown: 60 s

 

Whirlwind after: "Blast the target with raw lightning, dealing X energy damage over X seconds. Additionally, hinders the target, preventing the use of high mobility actions and escapes such as charges, vanishes, and speed boosts."

 

Cooldown: 2 m

 

Electro Net :rolleyes:

Edited by EmperorRus
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For Madness/Balance, I'd really like to see a buff to "parasite"-effects leeching HP from opponents over a long duration.

 

Idea 1:

Force Vampirism

Increases all Life Leech by 50% (the healing effect)

 

Idea 2:

Stolen Life

When you would leech HP from enemys, but are already on full health, your maximum HP total increases for the amount of leeched HP for 30 seconds. This effect does not stack and only counts the highest amount, so if you first leech 500 and then 6000 HP, you will only get +6000 temporary HP.

 

Idea 3:

Death Field/ Force in Balace now also spread the effects of Force Slow and Demolish/Vanquish

 

Idea 4:

Mind control

Supression turns into a channeled Mind-Control stun, during which the user can't move or attack and which stuns the target for the amount of the duration, kinda like a mix of the Assasins Mind Trap and Force Lightning. How the animation should look? Go to the temple of the dark side on Dromund Kaas, there are enough examples. Would be cool to have this as a player skill.

Edited by Mephesh
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Tactical Item #3

Make Them Pay Static Barrier: Static Barrier grants 20 charges of "Make Them Pay". Whenever you take damage a charge of "Make Them Pay " is consumed and deals X energy damage [over 6 seconds] to attackers(DoT, stacks up to 10 times) Static Barrier does not absorb incoming damage.

 

Tactical Item #4 or QoL feature

If another Sorcerer applies a barrier onto you, you still get the effects from the utilities you skilled/discipline.

 

PVP oriented set bonus:

Reduces all damage taken while hindered by 15%.

 

My advice for your brainstorming ideas is to go crazy.

 

Tactical Item #5

Replaces Phase Walk. Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies and increasing movement speed by 30%. Lasts 10 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely.

 

Crazy enough :D

Edited by EmperorRus
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Tactical Item #3

 

Make Them Pay Static Barrier: Static Barrier grants 20 charges of "Make Them Pay". Whenever you take damage a charge of "Make Them Pay " is consumed and deals X energy damage [over 6 seconds] to attackers(DoT, stacks up to 10 times) Static Barrier does not absorb incoming damage.

 

Only if they also get an ability called "heal to full"

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Notes: Some of these ideas conflict with each other. I'm just providing options. I have also included some desired QoL changes. These ideas are primarily based on PvE content and based on my experience as a sorc main nightmare raider.

 

Tactical Items

- Intense Storm: Force storm has a chance to proc Dark Echo and Lightning Burns.

- Spike of Pain: Death field does not deal any AoE damage though it still provides its other effects and Deathmarks increase the damage dealt by DoTs by an additional 15%

- Echoes of Horror: Dark Echo has an 8m radius and each time a Deathmark is consumed, Dark Echo is triggered.

- Devouring Leech: Force Leech's animation is now larger and anyone hit by the beam is also affected by the ability (I'm thinking like Dual Saber Throw)

- Roaming Demolition: Demolish now jumps targets if the target dies (like Scorch) and Demolish is now an AoE, anyone within 5m of the target also receives the same amount of damage.

 

QoL Improvements

- Force Storm should also be able to proc Fulminating Current and Wrath

- The rotation doesn't work without clipping or delaying something. Generally, you either delay Force Leech or have to clip your DoTs. Part of this could be remedied by making Lightning Barrage cause Force Lightning to channel and tick 50% faster (1.5 second channel).

- Force Leech's cooldown should match Death Field and Demolish and deal more damage/healing to compensate.

- Try again with the Resurgence giving 30% armor rating. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

- Fulminating Current should be a passive 8% increase instead of being a proc

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Disclaimer:

 

I’ve have spent 85% of my time in this game as a madness sorc and the rest as healing sorc in pvp. I write entirely from a sorcerers perspective and I cannot entirely provide how effective or useful my ideas are in pve. I’ve tried to organize this the best I can but it may come out more as a stream of consciousness than a well thought out response. While not exactly on thread topic, I will also address some questions and concerns as a whole so I don’t have to post in 3 different threads and can collate my thoughts here.

 

Potential Tactical Items

 

So I understand you want classes to “play as how they would like to play”. With that in mind, I’ve come up with a few tactical items that may help change establish different play styles for all 3 advanced specs for sorcs. I understand my requests might sound ridiculous but please bear with me until I reach to the part where I discuss balancing.

 

 

  • Replace Barrier w/ reflect
    Essentially this tactical item would make barrier into a reflective ability. You lose barrier but you gain a reflect on a shorter cooldown but a shorter duration.

 

 

  • Heal to full Barrier (exclusively for dps - not heals)
    Remove the utility for barrier only healing for a little and include a tactical item that allows the barrier to heal to full.

 

 

  • Moving force lightning
    Allowing the sorcs to move while channeling force lightning! (We discussed this at the catina, please don’t break my heart)

 

Turrety/On-The-Move

 

These tactical items will help sorcs choose if they want to either be a sorc on the move or a more turrety sorc - in both dps and heal specs. The problem with having a sorc try and be turrety is that all the cooldowns remove the sorc from the fight. They have to sacrifice dps uptime to stay alive. Healing sorcs cannot turret because they don’t have cooldowns that will also help healing uptime. They are forced to play on the move unless they’re playing with teammates. This is also much more noticeable in 1v1s.

 

So to balance, you would remove the healing barrier utility right now entirely. Invulnerability to interrupts after barrier should become a final tier utility instead rather than feature of the ability. This would make sorcs a little bit more squishier if they choose to be on the move sorcs. Especially for sorcs who choose moving force lightning. Sorcs who want more uptime can choose to have the reflect and give up the barrier entirely. They can stand there and continue dpsing/healing w/ more output but are also...becoming more vulnerable. Heal to full barrier means they have to give up movement & uptime. Of course significant amount of healing should only happen if you stay in barrier for longer - really removing you from the fight. If you want invulnerability to stuns and interrupts after heal to full barrier - you’ll have pick it as a utility as in the final tier as opposed to a few others. - idk, I’m not the developer - I’m just trying to justify my fantasies here lol

 

Set bonuses for different specs can also gear towards different play styles. For example, you can set bonus pieces for lightning sorcs that do what musco recommended. Chain lightning can become a massive aoe or can become a snipe - just changing the function rather than the dps. Single target sorcs may pic to be more turrety if set bonus allows for dps increase if standing still (ie casted instead of channeled) thus choosing to pick maybe reflect. Heals may like this if set bonus allows for boost to sitting still as well. Where there could be another set bonus that allows for more movement - maybe where an aoe sorc comes in. For madness, it could be that dots refresh with death field vs demolish and force leech doing more damage. You would want to increase the force cost of dots due to this - inserting a bit more force management help into the set bonus for single target madness (lol what an oxymoron).

 

That’s my stream of consciousness. Onto my actual wishlist:

 

 


  • DoTs refresh with death field
    Ideally, I would love this just be an integral part of the a madness sorc. This more due to how a madness sorc should feel while playing rather than just a quality of life increase. I understand if something needs to be done balancing this - increase force cost of dots? - but please of all the things in this post, make this happen! (more than moving force lightning)

 

 

  • Changes to Teleport
    This is a QoL change that I would love, but never get. I feel port should be made of two abilities: one that places the port with no cd & the actually port ability. Also, if you use the port, the port doesn’t vanish but rather sits there. If you wish to move the port, toggle the first ability and go to where you want to move it. Honestly, leaving the fight to place port is making me lose uptime - along with using the port. Sheesh. Just let me dps lol

 

 

  • Force storm slows people in range
    I feel like this is self explanatory. The effect obviously has a cd - cuz FS doesn’t.
    Death field drops a miasma that damages people standing in the aoe and slows them down.
    This would make the whole “takes more damage from aoe” effect it has more viable lol. Of course, if you give me only one or the other, I’ll still be happy.

 

 

  • Switches my friendly pull into an enemy pull
    Friendly pull defensive utility turns into a debuff enemy utility.

 

 

  • Moving while in force barrier
    No ability to use my abilities but being rooted in spot is annoying lol at least let my rp walk in my barrier dammit - full duration, no self heal.

 

 

  • Overload taunts everyone it hits
    Literally just made this one up but I’m determined to get sorcs a taunt. I want a screenshot where I have the highest heals, damage, and prot pts in a match.

 

 

I’m not denying the fact that got more ridiculous towards the end. The next part should be on an overall thread but...I’m hoping I’m not writing this into the void and you see this because some of the stuff here for me is more important than any of the stuff above.

 

Questions/Concerns

 

  1. Someone (Keith) during the cantina told me that it was annoying playing a mando because everyone just disappears from your range so he wants to give them a bleed/root to help keep people close. I believe...that’s called an ELECTRO NET and NO, they do not need A SECOND ONE. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. PLEASE. I’M BEGGING YOU.
     
     
  2. How is this system stupid proof? For example, you (Musco) told me during the cantina that you have gear sets for gathering/crafting/AH. I brought up the concern that if stats were kept at level and buffs for gathering was massively increased alacrity, what’s stopping me from bringing this into pvp and decimating people. You told me it would be like actual reduction to gathering time. What will stop people from bringing gear sets like this into pvp or pve? Will you give a notification that alerts people that their gear set might not be the best for the selected activity?
     
     
  3. Are you going to allow for set swapping during pvp? Will you also let us change tactical items? I would use one item for say guarding and one for dpsing. I may change them depending on the people I see on the other side, or the comp? This could be beneficial for pvers where they can change their items to suit the boss. Is it overpowered for pvp? Will you lock the items in pvp like you do to the utilities?

 

 

If you made it this far, prove it and say hi :p

 

(Weapons designer pls…….. <.<)

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[*]Someone (Keith) during the cantina told me that it was annoying playing a mando because everyone just disappears from your range so he wants to give them a bleed/root to help keep people close. I believe...that’s called an ELECTRO NET and NO, they do not need A SECOND ONE. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. PLEASE. I’M BEGGING YOU.

 

Is Keith really so out of touch that he doesn't realize mercs/mandos are by far the most overpowered pvp class? That honestly frightens me.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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Tactical Item #6: Overloard changes

Overload and Force Wave have been redesigned. These abilities now knock back all targets within a 10-meter 360-degree.

 

 

Tactical Item #7: Whirlwind changes

Slows the target's movement speed by 70% and dealing X energy damage over 6 seconds. While affected, a target that moves takes 20% more damage from Whirlwind, and this effect can stack up to 5 times.

 

(Hindered free Electro Net)

 

Force Leech improvements:

Steals life from an enemy, dealing X internal damage to the target and healing you for 50% of the damage dealt.

In addition, Force Leech makes its target assailable for 45 seconds, Assailable targets take 7% more damage from elemental and internal attacks.

 

Force Slow improvements:

Deals X kinetic damage and slows the target's movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. Additionally, hinders the target, preventing the use of high mobility actions and escapes.

 

Yeah, ingnore "escapes" part.

Edited by EmperorRus
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Is Keith really so out of touch that he doesn't realize mercs/mandos are by far the most overpowered pvp class? That honestly frightens me.

 

I think that is the biggest issue, the developers are not good at their own game. Mandos have multiple putlets to close their gap between melee and they have roots. If our head developer is that bad at the game, then the community is truly doomed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Link to Main Forum Post with Google Doc of Failure's Set Bonus and Tactical Item suggestions

 

MADNESS/BALANCE

 

Tactical Suggestions:

  • Force storm has all passives of force lightning
    • Fulminating currents
    • Wrath
    • Sith efficacy
    • Chance to trigger lightning burns
    • Lightning Barrage

     

    [*]Deathmarks no longer increase the damage of your next 15 periodic effects by 15%. Instead they store 30% of the damage that consumed each stack. When the last stack is consumed, the Deathmarks explode, dealing internal damage to the target equal to the sum of all the damage stored.

    [*]Force Leech is now a 3 second channel that deals 8k internal damage per second and heals you for 50% of the damage done.

    [*]Spend life to gain damage

 

 

Set Bonus:

  • 2 set - Self Healing from Parasitism, Death Field, and Force Leech can now overheal you, converting the excess healing into a shield that absorbs up to 20% of your maximum health.
  • 4 set - Wrath damage is now increased to 40%.
  • 6 set - Deathfield now applies 20 deathmarks which now increase the damage dealt by each of your periodic effects by 20%.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Is it possible to give sages/sorcerers a telegraphed ability that works as rock throw did for Gnost Dural. Similar to the Gnost Dural fight in the Jedi Under Seige update that we received back in December. Gnost Dural would throw rocks at multiple positions and the ability was telegraphed via small reticles located on the ground. Allowing ranged players to have abilities that work similar to that would make the pvp feel more intense, make players relearn their beloved class, increase the skill gap and overall create a better experience for players.
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Sorcerers can make copies of themselves similar to the Darth Vitiate fight in the Jedi Knight Story.

Force lightning stuns all enemies within the area during the duration but does significantly less dmg

Force leech slows the target by 60%

static barrier clones the player it is used on.

overload knocks back the enemies 30 meters and knocks them down (PVP)

Force speed duration increased by 3 seconds

Whirlwind is now an Aoe that whirlwinds anyone within the diameter

Shock stuns the target for 2 seconds

Phasewalk can be used twice in row

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