Maybe... but do you think there is anyone left on the Writer Team who doesn't know how hotly anticipated and controversial same-gender romance is?

Maybe the writer wanted to put "they" (denominator for all genders) but wasn't allowed to due to the presumed gag order in place*? They wrote the romances before release (and before they decided to ditch SGRA's) so Kaliyo's post-romances letters were also then written, perhaps they didn't get time to edit them into being ONLY MEN ALL THE TIME.

Even though both my Agents are male, I still think Kaliyo should be bi or pan.

*I can just imagine some hand-wringing suit leaning over their shoulder say "No, you can't do that! Someone might think she's one of those bisexual people! And then where would we be?"

"Closer to where we should be?"

/me is happy about that fedback, but still won't click the spoler. (typing this while staring at the keyboard)

I've just seen a trailer in before the game came out that implied that she was somewhat masochistic. "See? It doesn't even hurt anymore." or so.

Well there goes my bad habit of not reading sentences fully. Stupid speed reading habit. Anyway, the part you're referring to is completely avoidable and you'll never see it if you go LS and treat her even halfway like a sentient being.

Yeah, they/he are considered to somewhat interchangeable depending on how pedantic you are - I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and it was just a stylistic slip, but I would have thought that they would have been more aware of their position and the fact that every statement (or non-statement) is reduced piecemeal and analyzed to death.

Or perhaps that should be:

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt and it was just a stylistic slip, but I would have thought that he would have been more aware of his position and the fact that every statement (or non-statement) is reduced piecemeal and analyzed to death.

You know, because everyone is obviously male.

Well there goes my bad habit of not reading sentences fully. Stupid speed reading habit. Anyway, the part you're referring to is completely avoidable and you'll never see it if you go LS and treat her even halfway like a sentient being.

It's entirely possible that I edited my post after you replied to it. I would treat her like a very twi'lek being, though, since my consular is twi'lek as well... I'd love to exchange a few head tail tricks with her and as long as she doesn't expect me to inflict pain on her, I might be able to organize some silken cloth bands. *dreamy sigh* Though I guess the galaxy will spin backwards before you get access to companions which were designed for different classes and have homosexual relationship with them.

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt and it was just a stylistic slip, but I would have thought that he would have been more aware of his position and the fact that every statement (or non-statement) is reduced piecemeal and analyzed to death.

Well, that's where I think giving us the figurative finger comes in. Sure they know. What else can we do when they don't talk to us?

Well, that's where I think giving us the figurative finger comes in. Sure they know. What else can we do when they don't talk to us?

Well if this means Kaliyo's not bi does that make Temple the lesbian romance option or do Agents not get any?

Can you imagine that? "We thought only one of the existing companions "made sense" as a romance option, so here you go, bisexual... Corso, I guess. Yay."

Well if this means Kaliyo's not bi does that make Temple the lesbian romance option or do Agents not get any?

No - I think Kaliyo likely is. I just think they won't tell us, even though we're told they have know for over a year.

No - I think Kaliyo likely is. I just think they won't tell us, even though we're told they have know for over a year.

Which says either A: They are the biggest jerks ever. Could be. The game devs I've met IRL were the most arrogant, condescending jerks I've seen outside of college. Not saying they all are like that but...

Or B: That is one nasty Byzantine gag order they live under. I mean holy crap, I've talked to former Secret Service agents who were more open and forthcoming.

I posted in a few of these before the game came out, but I'd like to add my opinion on herosexuality.

I don't think it's ideal, but it's better than some alternatives. Going that route typically results in less varied romance options and kind of waters down playing through with a different character.

I enjoyed in Dragon Age the different romances available to you based on origin and gender, and not just with player characters. I remember playing a second male human noble in order to experience an NPC romance near the end of the game that I glossed over on my first playthrough, where my male noble dabbled with Zevran before getting cozy with Leilana. DA2 didn't really have any of this, other than FemHawkes also being able to flirt with Sebastian.

I think ideally you would have some strictly straight companions, some strictly gay, some bisexual, some one-night stands of any sexuality etc and have different things to experience on every playthrough. However, this would require a lot more writing I imagine hasn't been done (who knows, maybe it was done pre-release and not included for whatever reason, but I doubt it), so such a major overhaul is probably unrealistic given the realities of development now.

That's unrealistic and unlikely for this game though, so if it comes to herosexuality, that's more than fine, imo.

If it means I don't get random whispers asking for cybersex, I can't say I'm terribly fussed. And I am guilty of using "he" until corrected, though nowadays I do use "they" more often.

 

But before we start getting into gender theory and the internet, let's go back to wondering how much the Bioware PR suits hate us in this thread. I'd say it's a fairly large dislike as they now know we aren't going to just shut up and go away.

Yeah, I misspelled "avatar" but once I saw how funny it looked I left it that way.

And boy, they must loathe us by now! We're that itch in a spot they just can't reach. It will eventually boil over if it hasn't begun to already. I feel like a child that wants attention so badly after being ignored for so long I'll take negative attention just so I can feel some kind of emotional response from an uncaring parent.

Thanks for popping in, ebado. Don't be a stranger.

To address your points, however, from what we heard at the Guild Summit last March, the writers knew from the time that same-gender companion romances were announced which companions they had in mind for that, and they have continued along those lines.

We were also told that the writing gets a huge lead-time so, while they may not have had the chance to write up the stories in such elaboration over a few months, it seems that the production time since ought to have allowed them scope to handle things however they felt the game requires.

By this point, these are all but in the can. We can talk about what would or wouldn't be satisfying but really there isn't anything we can say to influence these decisions – they have already been made. Discussing them does however help demonstrating what unanswered questions and concerns we have. Which is pretty much why this thread is still here.

And boy, they must loathe us by now! We're that itch in a spot they just can't reach. It will eventually boil over if it hasn't begun to already. I feel like a child that wants attention so badly after being ignored for so long I'll take negative attention just so I can feel some kind of emotional response from an uncaring parent.

Yes, but are we to the point where we're throwing a screaming fit in the middle of the supermarket while other adults are standing around whispering about how terrible a parent Bioware must be?

I do hope Bioware hasn't become Tone Deaf Mum :|

Thanks for popping in, ebado. Don't be a stranger.

 

To address your points, however, from what we heard at the Guild Summit last March, the writers knew from the time that same-gender companion romances were announced which companions they had in mind for that, and they have continued along those lines.

 

We were also told that the writing gets a huge lead-time so, while they may not have had the chance to write up the stories in such elaboration over a few months, it seems that the production time since ought to have allowed them scope to handle things however they felt the game requires.

 

By this point, these are all but in the can. We can talk about what would or wouldn't be satisfying but really there isn't anything we can say to influence these decisions – they have already been made. Discussing them does however help demonstrating what unanswered questions and concerns we have. Which is pretty much why this thread is still here.

I'm aware. I wasn't trying to influence anything, just sharing my opinion.

Yes, but are we to the point where we're throwing a screaming fit in the middle of the supermarket while other adults are standing around whispering about how terrible a parent Bioware must be?

 

I do hope Bioware hasn't become Tone Deaf Mum :|

I feel like a child that wants attention so badly after being ignored for so long I'll take negative attention just so I can feel some kind of emotional response from an uncaring parent.

I won't disclose my methods, but yes – that is pretty much what it took to get the reply we did get out of Joveth.

And of course we barnstormed the Community Q&A last winter to get the info we finally saw at the Guild Summit.

I am guessing those who could give the go-ahead to talk about this have never raised children, because anyone who has* can tell you that when you WANT to pay attention and respond is when a child is asking APPROPRIATELY. And yet, behaving ourselves has never gotten us anywhere.

So indeed, they are creating the very situation you describe – with the distinction that we are in fact adults, so we are capable of creating trouble in ways a toddler couldn't begin to think up, even within the Rules of Conduct. Not that I advocate that sort of thing.

I actually am trying to behave myself just now, and only sinking the occasional barb in where I am handed an opening (such as Kaliyo blog discussion) I cannot pass up.

*Yes, I am gay, and no, I don't have kids. But I have neices and a nephew, I took courses in education and child development and moreover was a nanny for five years.

I won't disclose my methods, but yes – that is pretty much what it took to get the reply we did get out of Joveth.

 

And of course we barnstormed the Community Q&A last winter to get the info we finally saw at the Guild Summit.

 

I am guessing those who could give the go-ahead to talk about this have never raised children, because anyone who has* can tell you that when you WANT to pay attention and respond is when a child is asking APPROPRIATELY. And yet, behaving ourselves has never gotten us anywhere.

 

So indeed, they are creating the very situation you describe – with the distinction that we are in fact adults, so we are capable of creating trouble in ways a toddler couldn't begin to think up, even within the Rules of Conduct. Not that I advocate that sort of thing.

 

I actually am trying to behave myself just now, and only sinking the occasional barb in where I am handed an opening (such as Kaliyo blog discussion) I cannot pass up.

 

*Yes, I am gay, and no, I don't have kids. But I have neices and a nephew, I took courses in education and child development and moreover was a nanny for five years.

And frankly if that's what it takes to get some straig...honest answers to simple questions we have been asking all along and which they stubbornly stay silent on, well to quote Captain FancyPants "I aim to misbehave".

Yes, for the most part we have gone above and beyond with being polite and "behaving". And it has gotten us nothing really. Only time when we get anything is when we act up.

 

And frankly if that's what it takes to get some straig...honest answers to simple questions we have been asking all along and which they stubbornly stay silent on, well to quote Captain FancyPants "I aim to misbehave".

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease", unfortunately.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease", unfortunately.

Speaking of us being a squeaky wheel, did anyone else notice they locked the latest thread over on general discussion with a promise that it would be reopened "soon." They claimed they had to clear out all of the OT comments. That was 12 hours ago. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they didn't like us hanging out outside the "ghetto thread" but they've decided that their old line about this being the official thread came across as too harsh.

Speaking of us being a squeaky wheel, did anyone else notice they locked the latest thread over on general discussion with a promise that it would be reopened "soon." They claimed they had to clear out all of the OT comments. That was 12 hours ago. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they didn't like us hanging out outside the "ghetto thread" but they've decided that their old line about this being the official thread came across as too harsh.

If they don't want people to make posts arguing homosexuality they really should consider releasing a proper official statement about SGRs...

Speaking of us being a squeaky wheel, did anyone else notice they locked the latest thread over on general discussion with a promise that it would be reopened "soon." They claimed they had to clear out all of the OT comments. That was 12 hours ago. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they didn't like us hanging out outside the "ghetto thread" but they've decided that their old line about this being the official thread came across as too harsh.

I don't even see that thread in the list on my profile of threads I have started. I know it was locked (and in all honesty had expected it to be immediately upon being seen). But I missed that message and have not been able to find it. Has it been deleted?

EDIT - No, still there. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5229473#post5229473

And from the CS post, I think they got where I was going with the thread. Perhaps they left it open because they are working on getting clearance to reply. That would be great. A lock down to cool things off and sweep out the abusive posts is fine. I trust them to re-open it. If it takes too much longer, I will enquire. Do try to appreciate that they have allowed an SGR thread in General!

Thank you, Community Team. I know you can only do so much for us until you can answer our questions here. I am trying to stay positive. But I am going to continue to ask.

EDIT 2 --

If they don't want people to make posts arguing homosexuality they really should consider releasing a proper official statement about SGRs...

No, I think that it is specifically because they know they have not been able to that they actually let that thread stay. Seriously, since all the lifetime of the post-launch forums, that may be a first. It's significant of an understanding of the situation we're in.

They earned any malice they've gotten and I'm surprised it isn't even more angry than it is. We're certainly a pretty well behaved bunch, considering.

Especially for an MMO player-base waiting a year for even a scrap of information on a feature and going completely unanswered - I saw people on Battle.Net who couldn't last 24 hours without hearing about the next Arena Season.

As for giving us the finger? Are you people for real? Honestly, I've been put off a little by the UNRELENTING negativity of this thread, and especially the attitude towards EA/Bioware lately.

How, pray, are we to respond then, when nine months of politely asking some very specific questions about the future implementation of this content has garnered exactly no answers here, and one regretful but uninformative staff post that I coerced from the CM by exhausting all possibly modes of feedback?

I am trying not to direct my unhappiness at the Community Team. I think they are doing what they can. I think the Devs are doing what they can. Unfortunately, that amounts to permitting a second thread with a more specific focus but which also is not able to be answered and a half-confirmation of a rumor that we'll be in luck come Makeb. Since March, that's it. What manner of mood do they suppose that will contribute to? What has been done to ameliorate that?

I infer the obstruction arises from some draconian NDA. I hope I have been clear on how I feel that acts against BioWare's interest by turning a pending feature that we ought to be able to happily anticipate and reasonably plan for (since we are coming to it late, and not as we might have with opposite-gender romances, from the very start), and instead making it come across as something too unpleasant or unimportant to address.

If I could directly address those who make the calls as to what may be discussed, I would. But we aren't allowed to see that far into BWA, so all we have are the Comm Team who, I can only hope, have documented and escalated our disaffection over this policy to those able to address it. But they cannot do that unless those very reasonable concerns are explicity and strongly voiced.

We can only speak from our point of view. If that tends to see clouds rather than silver linings, perhaps it is because we have been given little reason to be optimistic about anything. If I could go to the source, I would. I'd like nothing better than to go all Martin Luther and nail a clear message up on the door of the Non-Disclosure Overlords, and it would say:

 

 

• Will same-gender relationships be available with current companions?
  
• If so, with which?
  
• Will same-gender relationships be available for all eight classes?
  
• If not, with which?
  
• Will new relationship options be available to characters who have already fully progressed companion stories?
  
• Is the awaited same-gender content on the schedule to be released with Makeb?
  
• Are we still on track to see that content this year?
  
• Will same-gender romance require an in-game credit or cartel coin (or any other similar) expense to unlock?
  

 

Some of these questions date back to beta testing. Others are more recent, arising from changes at BioWare Austin and in the direction of the game. Clarification of any would be appreciated. Thanks.

Someone knows the answers to these questions, and someone at BioWare Austin can grant approval for those answers to be given. They haven't. What's to be positive about? More to the point, what incentive can we possibly have to be, when the only way we have ever managed to hear anything is by making a huge stink? What else can one make of a situation where that, and only that, has proved effective?

How, pray, are we to respond then, when nine months of politely asking some very specific questions about the future implementation of this content has garnered exactly no answers here, and one regretful but uninformative staff post that I coerced from the CM by exhausting all possibly modes of feedback?

Maybe without attributing malevolent intentions to the information that Bioware's writers or devs provide? As far as I'm concerned, I'll only say they're giving us the finger when they produce an official video of the whole writing and dev team specifically giving us the finger. Until then, I will just assume that their words are their words as they appear on my screen. I'd say the writer of the Kaliyo piece wasn't thinking of anything but providing us with a deeper insight into Kaliyo. Just because the writer used "he" in a couple of places doesn't mean they're trying to tell us Kaliyo is straight, just that the writer was thinking of her story as it currently stands right now in the present.

But no one is setting out to deliberately slight us here. I would hope that everyone would know better than that given the track record of all parties concerned.

I am trying not to direct my unhappiness at the Community Team. I think they are doing what they can. I think the Devs are doing what they can. Unfortunately, that amounts to permitting a second thread with a more specific focus but which also is not able to be answered and a half-confirmation of a rumor that we'll be in luck come Makeb. Since March, that's it. What manner of mood do they suppose that will contribute to? What has been done to ameliorate that?

Goodness, I don't even know where to start. The CMs read this thread, they've said it a few times now. Bile and vitriol in this thread gets read by them, even if it's largely not directed at them... But it is directed at the company they work for, which has got to be wearing (or outright demoralizing), especially if they feel even the slightest bit of loyalty to Bioware: Austin.

If I could directly address those who make the calls as to what may be discussed, I would. But we aren't allowed to see that far into BWA, so all we have are the Comm Team who, I can only hope, have documented and escalated our disaffection over this policy to those able to address it. But they cannot do that unless those very reasonable concerns are explicity and strongly voiced.

 

We can only speak from our point of view. If that tends to see clouds rather than silver linings, perhaps it is because we have been given little reason to be optimistic about anything.

It's fine if you strongly word your opinions, so long as you remain polite and respectful. But don't put words or gestures into the dev and writing teams mouths (and hands) - let them speak (or not) for themselves. The whole Kaliyo thing is being blown out of proportion by a few posters in this thread, and frankly that's not fair to anyone at Bioware.

I remember the D&D 3 rulebook was at times confusing because they alternated "he" and "she" from one longer paragraph of chapter to the next. It felt like they kept talking about completely different persons. In some places that made sense - they had their defined set of example characters and if they were talking about circumstances that applied only to a certain class, they used the gender of the particular example character they had for that class, even without directly referring to the character.... erm.... themselves.

I actually loved the way they did it in DnD, and I was especially fond of the iconic characters. I hope they bring that idea back for DnD Next.

I have been wanting nothing more for nine months for them to speak for themselves. And, in the context of this issue, in this thread they have fallen short of the mark of what is acceptable from any company in addressing reasonable customer concerns. I am sorry the Comm Team are the ones who have to follow the circus parade with a shovel. I really am. And elsewhere, where I feel they have done well, I have been at pains to say so.

I thanked the Comm Team and Dev Team both for the companion blog. It's great to see story getting some promotion. It really is. I thanked them in threads and venues where that was germane.

But in the context of this thread, it was a huge disappointment that what could have been a golden opportunity to begin to speak about aspects of companion stories which they know we are anxious to hear more about has been passed up, seemingly without a backward glance. Yes, he was writing about the game as it stands right now. But the game as it stands right now is dismayingly heterosexist. And I think we have every right to find that objectionable.

When I feel dismayed at the situation, I think I ought to be able to say so. I think it is important that I do. I waver on that, though. I have, when able to glimpse something positive, tried to express that and encourage others to appreciate it as well. But it is so very little to go on after so long. I'm glad we are permitted to discuss Gabe Amatangelo's Makeb rumor in General Discussion. That is a step in the right direction, as far as it goes. But if it is simply one more thread where SGR questions are met only with thunderous silence, then enthusiasm wanes.

Similarly with the Gabe A. mention itself, and the bizarrely oblique, plausibly deniable confirmation of it. I can make a shrewd guess why it was handled that way, and appreciate that it was addressed at all. But I am livid that, in this day and age, it is being handled that way. No sweet tidbit comes our way without a bitter garnish of wormwood. It makes it hard to appreciate.

Being told this thread is read is nice, as is hearing that concerns are escalated. But when the net result of that is in no way different from where we would be had this thread never been created at all, then where does that get us? Sure, BioWare and EA have had a good track record for inclusiveness in other games previously. But I am playing this one. As is. And, as is, it fails to reach the standards which one expects of an EA or BioWare title.

I'd like a bit more to go on than assurances that this thread is read and gossip indicating that maybe SGRs are coming with Makeb, which may or may not be on the schedule to be released this calendar year. And if a lack of response leaves us with nothing to do but speculate, and contributes to a pessimistic appraisal of the situation, then yes - we will tend to speculate in a negative manner.

I am sorry that the Hidden Masters have put their front people in this terrible position. I extend the benefit of the doubt, say "seems to" and "I imagine" wherever I can. I try to keep thing on topic. More than that? No can do.