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Re-visiting the Battle of Hoth: General Rieekan vs General Veers!


Wolfninjajedi

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Ben you seem to be just focusing on the vehicles here, but what is stopping the Specforce from halting the HAVWs with their heavy weapons as they come in? Not to mention they too have the same HAVWs, so they could infact take theirs and also flank the Imperial forces and take down the AT-ATs rather quickly(the HAVWs are armed heavy so they could take out an AT-AT with a couple of neck shots). There is also the trenches to consider that are around the Base, those trenches seem pretty deep and the wheeled vehicles could be in trouble if they go right on it cause they could actually crash right in the trench unless they find another way around.

 

There is also the mass drivers on the AT-TE's and AT-APs could also infact target and take out the Imps HAVWs as they come around. The motors on the AT-XTs could also do some damage, or have the vehicles be moving so fast that they could tip them over if the driver tries to pull anything too extreme. There is also the MPTLs to worry about too, so the Imps HAVWs will have a hard time getting to the base, defensive advantage goes to Rieekan here and that is always a factor in a battle.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Remember those two bridges that lead to the back hangar of Echo Base?
Remember the massive entrance to the back hangar, guarded by a single turret? I also don't recall a slope. Nonetheless it will be no trouble for a HAV - a troop transport that can stage an assault on the hangar - effectively surrounding the rebels.

Ben you seem to be just focusing on the vehicles here, but what is stopping the Specforce from halting the HAVWs with their heavy weapons as they come in? Not to mention they too have the same HAVWs, so they could infact take theirs and also flank the Imperial forces and take down the AT-ATs rather quickly(the HAVWs are armed heavy so they could take out an AT-AT with a couple of neck shots). There is also the trenches to consider that are around the Base, those trenches seem pretty deep and the wheeled vehicles could be in trouble if they go right on it cause they could actually crash right in the trench unless they find another way around.

 

There is also the mass drivers on the AT-TE's and AT-APs could also infact target and take out the Imps HAVWs as they come around. The motors on the AT-XTs could also do some damage, or have the vehicles be moving so fast that they could tip them over if the driver tries to pull anything too extreme. There is also the MPTLs to worry about too, so the Imps HAVWs will have a hard time getting to the base, defensive advantage goes to Rieekan here and that is always a factor in a battle.

There are two problems this plan of attack:

 

 

  1. The AT-ATs have the advantage of range and height, despite the speeds that the HAWs can move at, the AT-ATs will be targeting maximum firepower on those units as they trundle towards them. Two will be easily destroyed before they get in range, and lets not forget in a full on charge into enemy lines they will be vulnerable to attacks from troops and other units.
     
     
  2. The big hitters will be focused on the the AT-ATs, making it alot easier for the fast HAWs to evade them, which also look designed to trundle over trenches.

 

IMO it would take two AT-ATs to take out those HAWs, and would do so before they get close enough. Meanwhile the third and fourth and focus on the AT-TEs and MPTLs (which have minimal shielding.) Once those are out the rebel forces will fall under heavy fire, and be too occupied to mount an effective offensive on the HAWs which have powerful short range capablities and missles/grenades that can be dumped in trenches before trundling over them.

 

P.S. Guys, respect the OP - I don't think limiting walkers to 3 is ridiculous at all and am more than happy to accept that rule. Its his debate, his rules. If you don't like it, make your own debate and we'll see how it fares.

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Remember the massive entrance to the back hangar, guarded by a single turret? I also don't recall a slope. Nonetheless it will be no trouble for a HAV - a troop transport that can stage an assault on the hangar - effectively surrounding the rebels.

 

 

 

The back entrance to the Hangar leads to the Rebel shuttles outside of the base (I'm unsure about that part being actually canon being that I am drawing Echo Base's layout from BF2). So the rebels have a set-up outside of Echo Base, guarded by several turrets and whatever Rieekan sets up back there as last line of defense. He would be foolish to put all of his heavy equipment up front and not make a backup plan.

 

Now IIRC, there is a second set of tunnels that leads to the back hangar, but can be dealt with through cave-ins.

 

There is a ridge that surrounds the Rebel staging area. That is the slope that I am talking about. The Imperials would have to climb it in order to get at the Rebel staging area. They could probably do this with the HAVs, which would allow the Snow Troopers easy access to the back area.

 

Personally, I don't know if these scenarios are viable as we are both judging off of the Battlefront 2 map. But, you know, I think the Empire could win this regardless. I think it depends on if Rieekan makes a backup plan (revolving around the ambiguously canon staging area). But you certainly have made an impressive case for the Empire, very difficult to counter. I guess that's what happens when your debate mode has been on standby for the longest time. :p

 

But I do agree with Wolf that the Wilderness troops could change the game.

 

Edit: It has been forever since I played Battlefront 2, so I may be spewing nonsense. Go ahead and call me out on it if you know for sure. :D

Edited by Aurbere
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Remember the massive entrance to the back hangar, guarded by a single turret? I also don't recall a slope. Nonetheless it will be no trouble for a HAV - a troop transport that can stage an assault on the hangar - effectively surrounding the rebels.

There are two problems this plan of attack:

 

 

  1. The AT-ATs have the advantage of range and height, despite the speeds that the HAWs can move at, the AT-ATs will be targeting maximum firepower on those units as they trundle towards them. Two will be easily destroyed before they get in range, and lets not forget in a full on charge into enemy lines they will be vulnerable to attacks from troops and other units.
     
     
  2. The big hitters will be focused on the the AT-ATs, making it alot easier for the fast HAWs to evade them, which also look designed to trundle over trenches.

 

IMO it would take two AT-ATs to take out those HAWs, and would do so before they get close enough. Meanwhile the third and fourth and focus on the AT-TEs and MPTLs (which have minimal shielding.) Once those are out the rebel forces will fall under heavy fire, and be too occupied to mount an effective offensive on the HAWs which have powerful short range capablities and missles/grenades that can be dumped in trenches before trundling over them.

 

P.S. Guys, respect the OP - I don't think limiting walkers to 3 is ridiculous at all and am more than happy to accept that rule. Its his debate, his rules. If you don't like it, make your own debate and we'll see how it fares.

 

But ah ha, the Snowspeeders could trip up the AT-ATs as they are distracted with the Rebels HAVWs using the towcables and take the AT-ATs out of the fight for this. Remember the Snowspeeders are small targets and hard to hit, an AT-AT literally needs to stop moving and actually aim its cannons to effectively hit a Snowspeeder(as evident in ESB when that one AT-AT stood and blasted a Snowspeeder right out of the sky) or unless the Snowspeeders fly directly at them which is what Luke and Wedge did and thus Luke got hit.

 

There is still the matter of even if the AT-TEs and MPTLs are taken out, the Rebels still have AT-APs and AT-XTs for long range shelling and T-4B tanks which have heavy armor + turbolasers and concussion missile launchers which are able to fight against AT-ATs too and by that time, even if one AT-AT survives it would be taking so much firepower from the remaining vehicles and hits from the Rebel specforce weapons.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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The back entrance to the Hangar leads to the Rebel shuttles outside of the base (I'm unsure about that part being actually canon being that I am drawing Echo Base's layout from BF2). So the rebels have a set-up outside of Echo Base, guarded by several turrets and whatever Rieekan sets up back there as last line of defense. He would be foolish to put all of his heavy equipment up front and not make a backup plan.
Ah, that part. I remember that part, that's the part I got stuck on with the Story missions, even with Darth Vader that turret circle decimated me. :o

 

I admit, that could certainly prove a study defense, and since they don't have aerial capabilities they'd have to charge them full on. However given the size of that area it will be difficult to mount a full offensive/garrison all his forces their. By the time the Empire have pushed them back to that point, they'll be on their last legs. Given the relatively small space, grenades will be effective here, as well as other munitions.

 

And Wolf you make a good point, one I shall have to address when I have the time. Until then.

 

P.S. And yes Aurbere, they don't call me the K-God for nothing. ;)

Edited by Beniboybling
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I'll do a much smaller battle(squad vs squad) next time, so I won't get the ramblings of how this is bad and everything. Was just trying to make it as fair as possible.

 

Don't listen to the complainers. You were justified in your actions. Those AT-ATs are beast, which is why my scenarios focused on putting the rebels in positions to eliminate the AT-ATs.

 

However, a squad vs. sqaud battle would be interesting.

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I'll do a much smaller battle(squad vs squad) next time, so I won't get the ramblings of how this is bad and everything. Was just trying to make it as fair as possible.

 

The problem was choosing a battlefield that was never fair in the first place and not making it clear that you were handicapping Veers intentionally to produce a certain result

 

It's easier discussing the strengths and weaknesses of individual persons or weapons, this thread though would be the question of Eisenhower vs Rundstedt on D-Day if the allies didn't have the British or Canadian forces, no air support and the German armored units arrived as soon as possible

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But ah ha, the Snowspeeders could trip up the AT-ATs as they are distracted with the Rebels HAVWs using the towcables and take the AT-ATs out of the fight for this. Remember the Snowspeeders are small targets and hard to hit, an AT-AT literally needs to stop moving and actually aim its cannons to effectively hit a Snowspeeder(as evident in ESB when that one AT-AT stood and blasted a Snowspeeder right out of the sky) or unless the Snowspeeders fly directly at them which is what Luke and Wedge did and thus Luke got hit.

 

There is still the matter of even if the AT-TEs and MPTLs are taken out, the Rebels still have AT-APs and AT-XTs for long range shelling and T-4B tanks which have heavy armor + turbolasers and concussion missile launchers which are able to fight against AT-ATs too and by that time, even if one AT-AT survives it would be taking so much firepower from the remaining vehicles and hits from the Rebel specforce weapons.

If one or two HAWs can get the to hangar that removes the problem of snowspeeders. However if they cannot and enough leave the hangar they could well prove a problem for the AT-ATs which will be focused on the ground units.

 

Lets not forget however that the ground units have Imperial tanks to deal with also, even with 2 HAWs storming the hangar that still leaves 2 behind. Still, those walkers aren't going to do that much damage...

 

So Veers either has to sacrifice his AT-ATs and destroy the Rebels tank units, or allow the tank units to remain and deal with the speeders. But I actually think Veers can split his forces:

 

 

  • Send 2 HAWs to take out the hangar.
     
     
  • Have 2 AT-ATs target the incoming HAWs and then AT-TEs - which will have difficulty reaching that weak spot given speed, maneuverability etc.
     
     
  • Have the other 2 AT-ATs provide support, but redirect fire on the snowspeeders if any engage.
     
     
  • Have the remaining HAWs tackle the less powerful MPTLs and T4-B heavy tanks.
     
     
  • Have the remaining 12 walkers target the Rebels 6 walkers as well as backup the snowtroopers.

 

However we cannot forget the existence of the anti-vehicle turrets which without AT-AT support will deal heavy damage to those short range, lightly armoured vehicles i.e. the walkers. However once the majority of Rebel tank units have been destroyed, more focus can be put on destroying these. I also recall that AT-STs were quite effect at destroying these, although no better defended against them.

 

Concerning casualties, I think Veers will lose at least one AT-AT to the mass drivers and a maximum of two to the snowspeeders. Its possible he could lose them all, but not after destroying the rebels heavy units. Most of the walkers will likely be destroyed and possibly a few HAWs. But the rebels will lose the majority of their heavy tanks and quickly push the Rebels back to their base.

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How would the HAVWs have difficulty reaching an AT-ATs weakspots? They aren't slow like the AT-TE, though that scenario does seem likely for the Snowspeeders the rebels could take out the HAVWs before they reach the hangers using their own heavy weapons. But then were also forgetting the troopers here, the Specforce could use

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HH-15_projectile_launcher

 

Which are great for anti-armor, and though they had inferior targeting capabilities compared to the MiniMag the Rebels manually did the targeting to make up for that, and also these.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/PLX-2M_portable_missile_launcher

 

To be honest, the Rebels have a lot of heavy firepower + the Snowspeeders that could take down the AT-ATs rather quickly. The AT-XTs I could see lasting, due to their Plasma deflector shield generators, and they are effective front line walkers.

 

Now this isn't saying the Rebels wouldn't take heavy loses, but their main threat is the AT-AT group which they do have a good chance of taking them all out and then focusing on the other walkers. How much of a force, the Rebels would have afterwards depends and probably the Rebels would need to fall back to Echo Base and fortify their defenses as whatever remaining Snowtroopers are left come running in. The rebels here have the advantage of knowing the layout of the base, compared to the Snowtroopers and actually the rebels could sick Wampas on the Snowtroopers too, of course the Wampas would probably also attack the Rebels but its just something to throw at the Snowtroopers a sort of surprise attack.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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