KBN,

I appreciate the time and work you put into crunching the stat numbers for us fellow tanks. However, I noticed that your comments on the ideal tanking stats for PvP are a little outdated and we could use your help. In one post you assumed the distrubution of PvP attacks favored F/T & I/E to M/R around 40/60, but then you later adjusted it to say that an increase in Sniper and Marauder population had shifted that ratio to 60/40 in favor of M/R.

From personal experience it seems to me that PvP attacks favor F/T & I/E more than M/R, but I have no data to support this. Currently the main DPSers in Rated Warzones are usually Focus/Combat Sentinels, Lethiality Snipers, Commandos, or Sages, which are all at the very least 50/50 M/R to F/T & I/E, if not significantly more in favor of F/T I/E (Sages have no M/R). So, my question to you is: At what point does Absorb become more of a primary stat over Defense? Also, please consider that through min/maxing in PvP that we can essentially completely get rid of Absorb altogether in favor of Defense on mods and enhancements. Is it wise to do this considering how many F/T & I/E attacks we seem to be getting hit with as PvP tanks? Thank you for your expert advice in advance.

I am also interested in this. KBN, can you also post an equally balanced distribution of defensive stats for pvp putting all damage types at 50/50. I just don't want to base my min/maxing on prevalent ACs in warzones because they are always changing.

In addition, I would like to inject which BIS pvp relics are for the 3 ACs and comparison of using def/sh/abs vs end augments for each tanking class.

I did test the augments myself post-2.0 and I am leaning towards the defensive augs for my PT over endurance. I just want to know the opinion of other experienced pvp tanks.

I am also interested in this. KBN, can you also post an equally balanced distribution of defensive stats for pvp putting all damage types at 50/50. I just don't want to base my min/maxing on prevalent ACs in warzones because they are always changing.

 

In addition, I would like to inject which BIS pvp relics are for the 3 ACs and comparison of using def/sh/abs vs end augments for each tanking class.

 

I did test the augments myself post-2.0 and I am leaning towards the defensive augs for my PT over endurance. I just want to know the opinion of other experienced pvp tanks.

Dijskykiller is right, compositions are always changing. Right now the most popular DPS classes are TK Sage, Gunnery Commandos, Combat or Focus Sentinels, Focus Guardians, and Dirty Fighting Gunslingers. Hybrid Sages, Scrapper Scoundrels, Infiltration Shadows, Sharpshooter Gunslingers, and Assault Vanguards are less popular now, but I don't want to be changing out my gear every time a new composition is used. I would feel comfortable gearing for a 60/40 ratio favoring F/T & I/E. Is Absorb better than Defense at that point or should we try and balance between the two since Absorb competes with Defense?

I am also interested in this. KBN, can you also post an equally balanced distribution of defensive stats for pvp putting all damage types at 50/50. I just don't want to base my min/maxing on prevalent ACs in warzones because they are always changing.

 

In addition, I would like to inject which BIS pvp relics are for the 3 ACs and comparison of using def/sh/abs vs end augments for each tanking class.

 

I did test the augments myself post-2.0 and I am leaning towards the defensive augs for my PT over endurance. I just want to know the opinion of other experienced pvp tanks.

My shadow tank alt just hit 55... and this stuff is killing me as my mild OCD refuses to make purchases with wz/rwz comms unless I *KNOW*!!

So please help with the relics and to a lesser extent the augments, although everwhere I have been for PvP tanks has always said fortitude.

Thnak you in advanace .

My shadow tank alt just hit 55... and this stuff is killing me as my mild OCD refuses to make purchases with wz/rwz comms unless I *KNOW*!!

 

So please help with the relics and to a lesser extent the augments, although everwhere I have been for PvP tanks has always said fortitude.

 

Thnak you in advanace .

Yeah I agree. I stopped min/maxing and just focused on finishing my set pieces until I have more info. Dropping all absorb for defense just doesn't feel right given how much non-m/r damage we take in PvP, but then again I'm also not comfortable having such low defense that results from stacking Absorb (but I think defense cooldowns will make up for this?)... so I'm at a loss.

I am also interested in this. KBN, can you also post an equally balanced distribution of defensive stats for pvp putting all damage types at 50/50. I just don't want to base my min/maxing on prevalent ACs in warzones because they are always changing.

 

In addition, I would like to inject which BIS pvp relics are for the 3 ACs and comparison of using def/sh/abs vs end augments for each tanking class.

 

I did test the augments myself post-2.0 and I am leaning towards the defensive augs for my PT over endurance. I just want to know the opinion of other experienced pvp tanks.

^ this

if you can provide some info, like what would be the typical stat budget, how much shield are you able to get. etc that would provide reasonable numbers.

a 60% f/t assumption gives shield/absorb heavy solutions for optimal weights. i am not seeing any defense being used for shadows or vangaurds. at 2500 i get around 250 defense fro juggs, and 500 or so at 3000. this is assuming all attacks are named (non auto attacks)

if you can provide some info, like what would be the typical stat budget, how much shield are you able to get. etc that would provide reasonable numbers.

 

a 60% f/t assumption gives shield/absorb heavy solutions for optimal weights. i am not seeing any defense being used for shadows or vangaurds. at 2500 i get around 250 defense fro juggs, and 500 or so at 3000. this is assuming all attacks are named (non auto attacks)

So if I understand you correctly we should be stacking Shield and Absorb if we were gearing for a 40/60 ratio F/T & I/E to M/R ratio?

Here's the breakdown of stats:

Conqueror Earring, Implants, & Relics total: 177 Shield and 173 Defense (This will be constant no matter what)

Mods (9): 36 absorb or 36 defense per mod = total of 324 absorb or defense (depending on what you're stacking)

Enhancements (7):

Defense -

Immunity: 36 Endurance, 64 Shield, 41 Defense = (x7) = 262 Endurance, 448 Shield, 287 Defense

Bastion: 51 Endurance, 64 Shield, 25 Defense = (x7) = 357 Endurance, 448 Shield, 175 Defense

Steadfast: 64 Endurance, 59 Shield, 14 Defense = (x7) = 448 Endurance, 413 Shield, 98 Defense

Absorb -

Sturdiness: 36 Endurance, 64 Shield, 41 Absorb = (x7) = 262 Endurance, 448 Sheild, 287 Absorb

Bulwark: 51 Endurance, 64 Shield, 25 Absorb = (x7) = 357 Endurance, 448 Shield, 175 Absorb

Vigilant: 64 Endurance, 59 Shield, 14 Absorb = (x7) = 448 Endurance, 413 Shield, 98 Absorb

Now, as a PvP tank, I don't think I'll be taking any 36 Endurance Enhancements because Endurance is too important, however I am curious if I should go for the 51 Endurance Enhancements or the 64 Endurance ones, and the ratio of Defense to Absorb I should pick for Mods and Enhancements for a 60/40 ratio of F/T & I/E to M/R. As far as Augments go I wouldn't stack anything except for Shield or Endurance and currently I am taking Endurance.

same assumptions with using the 59/14 enhancements

shadow: just go all absorb without shield augments.

d s a

1200 0 367 833

1300 0 410 890

1400 0 453 947

1500 0 496 1004

1600 0 539 1061

juggs: just go all absorb with some shield augments

d s a

1200 0 514 686

1300 0 567 733

1400 0 619 781

1500 0 671 829

1600 0 724 876

PT (with or without oil slick gives same answer). just go all absorb with some shield augments

d s a

1200 0 764 436

1300 0 817 483

1400 0 869 531

1500 0 922 578

1600 0 975 625

same assumptions with using the 59/14 enhancements

 

shadow: just go all absorb without shield augments.

d s a

1200 0 367 833

1300 0 410 890

1400 0 453 947

1500 0 496 1004

1600 0 539 1061

 

juggs: just go all absorb with some shield augments

d s a

1200 0 514 686

1300 0 567 733

1400 0 619 781

1500 0 671 829

1600 0 724 876

 

 

PT (with or without oil slick gives same answer). just go all absorb with some shield augments

 

d s a

1200 0 764 436

1300 0 817 483

1400 0 869 531

1500 0 922 578

1600 0 975 625

Can you also provide distribution for 1900 and 2000 stat budget. I'm sitting at 1900 with all defensive augs.

How are you calculating stat budget? Are you taking all item slots into consideration or just mods and enhancements?

All item slots with def stats including augs. Also, I picked up the high def/sh/abs low end mods and enhancements.

I'm sitting at 1923 with Conqueror earpiece, implants, and relics, with full partisan mods/enh and 28 augs.

shadows:

1700 0 677 1023

1800 0 730 1070

1900 0 782 1118

2000 0 835 1165

juggs:

1700 0 776 924

1800 0 829 971

1900 0 881 1019

2000 0 934 1066

PT:

1700 0 1027 673

1800 0 1080 720

1900 0 1133 767

2000 0 1186 814

All you really need to do is stack endurance. In reality, you're a second health pool for the healer (or whoever you're guarding), so once you max your expertise, you want to get as much endurance as you can.

For secondary stats, I went with full shield (obv) and all enhancements into absorption. That being said, it isn't as important as stacking endurance, due to the amount of burst coming from many sources at once, and the concentration of healing power from your team.

This stuff is really helpful.

Thank you so much dipstik!!

All you really need to do is stack endurance. In reality, you're a second health pool for the healer (or whoever you're guarding), so once you max your expertise, you want to get as much endurance as you can.

 

For secondary stats, I went with full shield (obv) and all enhancements into absorption. That being said, it isn't as important as stacking endurance, due to the amount of burst coming from many sources at once, and the concentration of healing power from your team.

While you have the right idea, your reasoning is a bit off. Based on Dipstiks formula, Endurance, Shield, and Absorb is definitely the way to go, however Endurance isn't the best stat because "all we are is essentially another HP pool for healers." If you follow the tanking forums you will know that there needs to be balance between hitpoints and damage mitigation. If you simply stack all hipoints through endurance, or all damage mitigation through defense/shield/absorb, mathematically you will be at a disadvantage. It benefits more to find a middle ground.

That being said, as a Guardian PvP tank, I'm basically going to take all Absorb Mods, and the 51 Endurance Enhancements (as opposed to the 64 or 36 Endurance enhancements) that also add Absorb, but all my augments are going to stack Endurance.

High Endurance does a lot for PvP Guardians. Enure increases our maximum HP pool by 30%, Focused Defense heals us for 3% of our maximum hp, and the 2 piece Vindicator set bonus heals us for 8% of our total hp pool every time we Guardian Leap. The only reason I'm not completely stacking Endurance is because I want a little more mitigation.

While you have the right idea, your reasoning is a bit off. Based on Dipstiks formula, Endurance, Shield, and Absorb is definitely the way to go, however Endurance isn't the best stat because "all we are is essentially another HP pool for healers." If you follow the tanking forums you will know that there needs to be balance between hitpoints and damage mitigation. If you simply stack all hipoints through endurance, or all damage mitigation through defense/shield/absorb, mathematically you will be at a disadvantage. It benefits more to find a middle ground.

 

That being said, as a Guardian PvP tank, I'm basically going to take all Absorb Mods, and the 51 Endurance Enhancements (as opposed to the 64 or 36 Endurance enhancements) that also add Absorb, but all my augments are going to stack Endurance.

 

High Endurance does a lot for PvP Guardians. Enure increases our maximum HP pool by 30%, Focused Defense heals us for 3% of our maximum hp, and the 2 piece Vindicator set bonus heals us for 8% of our total hp pool every time we Guardian Leap. The only reason I'm not completely stacking Endurance is because I want a little more mitigation.

Trust me, I'm well aware of the mitigation components of tanking, and my PVE set is full mitigation balanced. Not to sound snarky or anything.

However, with autocrits on smash being so prevalent, (and PT's railshots for that matter) our mitigation stats do nothing. As most ranked comps have at least one, but typically two smashers, that means that out of the 5 people that will be hitting you (healers and tank not counted), the most damage you take is unmitigated. 2/5 of the major damage is unmitigated. With that being said, the % of points you gain from mitigation enhancements doesn't make a big enough difference compared to the ~4k extra health you could get.

Also compounding this is the difference between damage in a raid compared to damage in PVP. With burst damage being so prevalent (think snipers and smashers), you simply want as much HP as you can get to ensure that you will be able to stay alive when being hit by multiple big hits at once, which sometimes can't be mitigated.

And reading through your post, it is pretty close to what I'm running with on my shadow tank now for pvp. Sits me a bit over 38k

Trust me, I'm well aware of the mitigation components of tanking, and my PVE set is full mitigation balanced. Not to sound snarky or anything.

 

However, with autocrits on smash being so prevalent, (and PT's railshots for that matter) our mitigation stats do nothing. As most ranked comps have at least one, but typically two smashers, that means that out of the 5 people that will be hitting you (healers and tank not counted), the most damage you take is unmitigated. 2/5 of the major damage is unmitigated. With that being said, the % of points you gain from mitigation enhancements doesn't make a big enough difference compared to the ~4k extra health you could get.

 

Also compounding this is the difference between damage in a raid compared to damage in PVP. With burst damage being so prevalent (think snipers and smashers), you simply want as much HP as you can get to ensure that you will be able to stay alive when being hit by multiple big hits at once, which sometimes can't be mitigated.

 

And reading through your post, it is pretty close to what I'm running with on my shadow tank now for pvp. Sits me a bit over 38k

I'm at 38.4k in PvP gear on my Guardian so you don't even have more HP than me let alone 3-4k more HP than me... although it sounds like you're centering your gearing around a Focus Sentinel's Smash and a Vanguards High Impact Bolt. Let me just remind you those are just 2 abilities among 2 archetypes.

However in all honesty it doesn't even really matter if you choose the 51 Endurance Enhancements or the 64 Endurance ones. We're only talking about a difference of 965 hp or .62% Shield and 1.68% Absorb between them.

0 defense doesn't sound right at all, taking zero damage is always better than taking damage period especially with all the auto crit abilities and crit in general that ignores shield regardless if defense rating only works on white damage which there are many white damage attacks.

I have tested Dip's optimization and i think i'm surviving more with a high defense distribution. I think the 60% f/t should not be followed as big hitters also come from white damage. While I notice that the shielded damage that i take is more stable and small, i get more spikier without defense due to the crits/auto-crits that passes.

I am trying KBN's stat distribution on this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=621033

However, i have no idea how updated it is. I hope somebody could also test this, as i'm starting to get broke, lol. In my opinion, defense is a must in pvp. Either def>shield>abs or shield>def>abs at least for PTs.

those are numbers for 60% f/t without considering crits. if you want crit info i need what fraction of each damage type crits.

i havent worked out a model that takes crit into account (since mobs dont crit). but we are talking about a portion of the equation that results in a zero term: 0*c*d is the term for defending a crit. c*(1-d) i guess is the heart of the difference between the two models.