Had to edit because i misread your quote. But the point still stands... if you had a good strategy in the first place, you wouldn't need to squeeze every last drop of DPS....

 

Sorry but a few people screwed it up for the rest of you. Get mad at them.

I disagree. Part of the strat is sometimes "squeezing" every last little bit out of your HPS or DPS.

You can be spot on with positioning and gameplan, but when your DPS is lacking, Patchwerk doesn't die.

Need ingame real combat logs. Anyone that doesn't support such a system is probably a bad DPSer that is in fear of losing their raid spot for being bad at their one, easy job.

It's really amazing how many people are against combat logs. Sad.

In WoW, it was nice to be on top. But I used the DPS meters more for my own personal development as a DPSer than anything else. I saw what other Fury Warriors were doing, saw what I was doing, and made changes accordingly.

But the bottom line is, if you're doing more than PUG'ing a normal mode raid, you should be held accountable for putting up expected numbers. If you can't do that, you need to either improve or be replaced. Stop coddling bads. Seriously.

DPS meters are just about the numbers right....

 

Well how about these numbers as of 1pm pst, 3-26-12

 

http://poll.pollcode.com/f28b_result?v

 

401 Yes

521 No

right now, among the sample of about 1,000 people that vote, it about 45% yes/55% no, near 50/50 with a small advantage for the no-clan

in 1.2, bioware has announced that operation will be tougher, enrage timer tighter...

and if logic prevails, 1.3 operation will be even tougher.

i guaranty you will see then that trend reverse in a heartbeat, wait and see.

right now, among the sample of about 1,000 people that vote, it about 45% yes/55% no, near 50/50 with a small advantage for the no-clan

 

 

in 1.2, bioware has announced that operation will be tougher, enrage timer tighter...

 

and if logic prevails, 1.3 operation will be even tougher.

 

i guaranty you will see then that trend reverse in a heartbeat, wait and see.

I approve this message.

Let's take the DPS equation out of it. Let's suppose that that someone in your Op doesn't quite understand the concept of what's going with a particular encounter.

For some reason your guild keeps wiping to what seems like a really easy phase of a boss. You try and try but you don't know what the heck is going on. Everyone is getting pissed and then something magical happens....

Enter combat logs. After you view the logs you see that person X is taking way too much damage because of reason Y. Person X then stops doing reason Y and thus progress is made.

Right now, I have no idea what kills me or my guild mates. Was it a ball of lightning? Was it a cleave? Was it tracer derp spam?

Real time Combat Logs can help remedy this problem.

You half quoted me. The analogy fits. Guilds are amateur teams comprised of individuals who like to drink beer and win stuff. If you don't understand that concept, you're thick.

When you started you're sports analogies it was with professional sport, which is not the same as a recreational video game. It just isn't, no matter how you twist it. It may be to some people but this game is not aimed a them and besides that's another argument for another time.

Now you're comparing it to amateur sport. Slightly more appropriate but still irrelevant. If I had to copmare this video game to something like that I'd say it's more like a Sunday league football in a local pub league. Sure people want to win, but no one really cares if they do. It's about getting together with a bunch of mates having a crack and a few beers after. Yet we all know the weaknesses in the team are the 5'4" goalie, the fat slow winger or the striker with the turning circle of a supertanker.

But at the end of the game everyone has had a good time, you all shake hands and meet up for a beer. That's how I see this game, in fact that's how I see all video gaming. When it gets too serious there is a problem and it's isn't a fault of the game.

You seem to think that after the game the manager should be sitting in his office with spreadsheets analysing performance using opta index or creating individual diet plans, reviewing video replays or something. I think he should be sat at the bar.

So, am I thick because I don't understand or thick because I disagree with you?

The bragging is just part of it. It stems from competition. Like right now. You and I are competing to see who can make the most witty and insightful point. We're trying our best to "best" each other. There's nothing wrong with it. And, at the end of the day, we have our text right here saved to be judged by all of SWTOR as to who made the most significant contribution. What's wrong with that?

This amused me I must say. Evidence if ever it was needed that you take competition faaar too seriously. I'm not competing, you are competing. You really think we're being judged by the SWTOR masses? Are you delusional? No one will judge us because no one cares. It's the internet. Seriously, if you think anyone here really cares about our little chit chat, you might have more issues going on in your life right now then 'besting' someone on the internet.

I know I will not convince you, or anyone else with your point of view and to be honest I don't care. I'm just making points and trying to do so in a mature adult manner and not calling anyone thick.

Need ingame real combat logs. Anyone that doesn't support such a system is probably a bad DPSer that is in fear of losing their raid spot for being bad at their one, easy job.

 

 

It's really amazing how many people are against combat logs. Sad.

 

In WoW, it was nice to be on top. But I used the DPS meters more for my own personal development as a DPSer than anything else. I saw what other Fury Warriors were doing, saw what I was doing, and made changes accordingly.

 

But the bottom line is, if you're doing more than PUG'ing a normal mode raid, you should be held accountable for putting up expected numbers. If you can't do that, you need to either improve or be replaced. Stop coddling bads. Seriously.

your attitude is exactly why you're getting the combat logs you're getting.

When you started you're sports analogies it was with professional sport, which is not the same as a recreational video game. It just isn't, no matter how you twist it. It may be to some people but this game is not aimed a them and besides that's another argument for another time.

 

Now you're comparing it to amateur sport. Slightly more appropriate but still irrelevant. If I had to copmare this video game to something like that I'd say it's more like a Sunday league football in a local pub league. Sure people want to win, but no one really cares if they do. It's about getting together with a bunch of mates having a crack and a few beers after. Yet we all know the weaknesses in the team are the 5'4" goalie, the fat slow winger or the striker with the turning circle of a supertanker.

 

But at the end of the game everyone has had a good time, you all shake hands and meet up for a beer. That's how I see this game, in fact that's how I see all video gaming. When it gets too serious there is a problem and it's isn't a fault of the game.

 

You seem to think that after the game the manager should be sitting in his office with spreadsheets analysing performance using opta index or creating individual diet plans, reviewing video replays or something. I think he should be sat at the bar.

 

So, am I thick because I don't understand or thick because I disagree with you?

 

 

 

This amused me I must say. Evidence if ever it was needed that you take competition faaar too seriously. I'm not competing, you are competing. You really think we're being judged by the SWTOR masses? Are you delusional? No one will judge us because no one cares. It's the internet. Seriously, if you think anyone here really cares about our little chit chat, you might have more issues going on in your life right now then 'besting' someone on the internet.

 

I know I will not convince you, or anyone else with your point of view and to be honest I don't care. I'm just making points and trying to do so in a mature adult manner and not calling anyone thick.

Sorry, wasn't trying to offend you. But let's not pretend that you aren't taking jabs at me. At least be honest about it, deal?

I play video games to compete. I play in weekend sports tournies to compete. I competed in college. I compete at work. I compete lots of places (or at least try to). It's what I've been programmed to do since I was a little kid. I don't like losing.

In video games I realize that some folks like to buy outfits for their toons and /guffaw and role play weddings or whatever. Some like to hear the story and immerse themselves into the genre before them. Others like to just play 2 hours a week (because that's how much time they have). That's fine, let 'em be. But as for me, and a lot of folks I play with and against, I like to compete and I like to know how I'm doing. Maybe it's an American thing. Maybe it's because I used to pour over (and still do) the stats in newspaper every morning as a kid. I don't know what it is, but it's what I like to do.

As for the manager you referenced, he could simply looks at the score-book (while over his pint) and says, "Ok, Brad you went 17/21 in this tournament with 15 RBI...we should bat you 3rd instead of 8th next time." All I'm really saying is that if you enjoy winning, why not give yourself enough tools to do so.

And I think you do understand the sports analogy, so you might be thinner than I previously thought

Right now I see alot of pugs that will drop you if you have less than XYZ amount of health. how is this any different than seeing your dps in a meter..oh i know your health does not directly relate to how well you do your job and a dps meter IS how well you do your job. group content is group content to be done in a group, people will always have a standard they expect others to live up to so they dont feel like they are carrying other players.

Why are you so adamant on excluding someone in the first place?

Hey anti logs brigade. In time to come there will be full combat logs *** damage meters in game. Just watch. Remember my name, so when they time comes remember what I've said.

And remember the finger..

Sorry, wasn't trying to offend you. But let's not pretend that you aren't taking jabs at me. At least be honest about it, deal?

 

I play video games to compete. I play in weekend sports tournies to compete. I competed in college. I compete at work. I compete lots of places (or at least try to). It's what I've been programmed to do since I was a little kid. I don't like losing.

 

In video games I realize that some folks like to buy outfits for their toons and /guffaw and role play weddings or whatever. Some like to hear the story and immerse themselves into the genre before them. Others like to just play 2 hours a week (because that's how much time they have). That's fine, let 'em be. But as for me, and a lot of folks I play with and against, I like to compete and I like to know how I'm doing. Maybe it's an American thing. Maybe it's because I used to pour over (and still do) the stats in newspaper every morning as a kid. I don't know what it is, but it's what I like to do.

 

As for the manager you referenced, he could simply looks at the score-book (while over his pint) and says, "Ok, Brad you went 17/21 in this tournament with 15 RBI...we should bat you 3rd instead of 8th next time." All I'm really saying is that if you enjoy winning, why not give yourself enough tools to do so.

 

And I think you do understand the sports analogy, so you might be thinner than I previously thought

The big difference is, PROFESSIONAL athletes and managers get

PAID to be at the top of their game. Their JOB depends on it. Just like your

JOB depends on you doing your very best.

This is a game, NOT A JOB.

Hey anti logs brigade. In time to come there will be full combat logs *** damage meters in game. Just watch. Remember my name, so when they time comes remember what I've said.

And remember the finger..

If that happens, ill be the first to give you a cookie.

Just to be clear, one side here is arguing that we should add full combat logs and combat data into the game.

The other side here is arguing that the opposition shouldn't be given full combat logs and combat data.

Does that sound right?

Really misinformed.

I'm talking about rec sports, bro. And it's about love of the game, not necessarily getting paid. Although, some folks do get paid to play games. Be it from sponsors or from selling credits or accounts.

As non-serious as you want to make MMOs, folks can make a lot of money off of 'em, but that's beside the real point.

Also...it's an analogy. I can't understand why folks don't understand what an analogy is. It's simply a similarity between like features of two different things, on which one can base a comparison. Which is what I did.

Just to be clear, one side here is arguing that we should add full combat logs and combat data into the game.

 

The other side here is arguing that the opposition shouldn't be given full combat logs and combat data.

 

Does that sound right?

I think it's more complex than that. I think some folks don't want others seeing what they're doing, but are ok with the OOG combat logs that will be available. Some are totally against them. And still some want real-time combat logs/damage meters.

Just a bunch of facts:

- If you need to compare your DPS with others in real time, you are just looking to showoff. If you want to improve your DPS and analyze a combat you just need what BW is providing.

- Behind the reasson "it's too slow to compare" e-peen contesters are just hiding the fact they have not enough game mechanics knowledge to compare different logs coming from different players. They just need the "black magic" of parser programmers to adapt their gameplay to them. So no, a comparative tool doesn't help you learn the game better or faster than the combat log that's been provided by BW.

- Ranks on DPS meters just promote average DPS... They systematically hide burst DPS which is as important to fullfill the goal than the miriad of stupid things (mainly AOEing when it's not needed) E-peen contesters do to "score high". OFC, linked to this is the systematic "parser discrimination" as the new popular way to create FOTM builds/classes.

- Threatmeters are basically equal to removing threat from a game... Unless some ppl refuses to use them, makes ALL "reaction" tools (like taunts & agro dumpers) irrelevant = poorer gameplay. They are usually needed by ppl that simply have no clue how important is to learn how threat is generated on PvE... Basically PvPers that want to PvE casually.

That's why I'm so sure I will not see Threatmeters on the game...

...It's one of those Priority Reassons to cancel my Sub... I just like Team PvE too much to whistand it seeing it converted to pointless predictable scenarios were you spend more time looking at moving bars than looking at the enemies you need to kill... It's what I did on WoW and Rift and what I will do here.

EDIT: Oh, btw, when you see ppl claiming that BW "confirmed" dpsmeters & threatmeters in the future, they are just having some issues distinguishing between "confiming the pressence of a feature" and "thinking on the pressence of a feature"... Which, ofc, makes a lot of a difference on what you will find really implemented at a given time.

I'm talking about rec sports, bro. And it's about love of the game, not necessarily getting paid. Although, some folks do get paid to play games. Be it from sponsors or from selling credits or accounts.

 

As non-serious as you want to make MMOs, folks can make a lot of money off of 'em, but that's beside the real point.

 

Also...it's an analogy. I can't understand why folks don't understand what an analogy is. It's simply a similarity between like features of two different things, on which one can base a comparison. Which is what I did.

It's a bad analogy because it's not a game for them, it's JOB.. That point makes it a really bad analogy.

It's still just a game...... bro..... Not only that it's a VIDEO game. Video games are made and marketed to be FUN.

Need ingame real combat logs. Anyone that doesn't support such a system is probably a bad DPSer that is in fear of losing their raid spot for being bad at their one, easy job.

Don't need ingame real combat logs. Anybody that does support such a system is probably a bad DPSer that cares more about being #1 on the log instead of worrying about fight mechanics, utility, crowd control, or helping the healer. They're in fear of losing their raid spot because the only thing they can do is stand in one place and go through their pre-planned rotation over and over.

See, I can make broad, unfounded, general statements also!

Will having combat log destroy the game or not ? --> Nope it won't

Will not having combat log destroy the game or not ? --> Nope it won't

People who like to do math and be better at their raid spot need this.

People who don't really care about math and wanna have fun don't need this.

On way or the other, it's in the devs hands.

Personnaly, I really don't care, one way or the other, but what I don't understand is the war that's going on between pros and cons ... why do you need to fight one another ?

Seriously, for the cons, will having combat logs ruin your game ?

Sure, some people using combat logs to get stats and be jerks, but they're already jerks, with or without it, they'll just prove it by showing numbers and using them to exclude people, but let's face it, they already exclude people that don't have a specific amount of health. But these are not the majority, most people want combat logs to better themselves in the role of their toon, is that bad ? Nah

Just my 2 cents

It's a bad analogy because it's not a game for them, it's JOB.. That point makes it a really bad analogy.

 

It's still just a game...... bro..... Not only that it's a VIDEO game. Video games are made and marketed to be FUN.

Once again, I was referencing Recreational sports. And, believe it or not, some folks have fun competing and getting paid.

Once again, I was referencing Recreational sports. And, believe it or not, some folks have fun competing and getting paid.

Then this game isn't for you....... Go play WOW.

Will having combat log destroy the game or not ? --> Nope it won't

Will not having combat log destroy the game or not ? --> Nope it won't

 

People who like to do math and be better at their raid spot need this.

People who don't really care about math and wanna have fun don't need this.

 

On way or the other, it's in the devs hands.

 

Personnaly, I really don't care, one way or the other, but what I don't understand is the war that's going on between pros and cons ... why do you need to fight one another ?

 

Seriously, for the cons, will having combat logs ruin your game ?

 

Sure, some people using combat logs to get stats and be jerks, but they're already jerks, with or without it, they'll just prove it by showing numbers and using them to exclude people, but let's face it, they already exclude people that don't have a specific amount of health. But these are not the majority, most people want combat logs to better themselves in the role of their toon, is that bad ? Nah

 

Just my 2 cents

Good post!

Then this game isn't for you....... Go play WOW.

And this is why we can't have nice things?