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Buff SM operations


benmas

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Then why didn't you try it with pugs who had never done it?

 

That doesn't have anything relevant to what I just said is an attempt to turn it around on me.... Although if you must know I didn't try it because I was new to operations at the time and stuck with the level 50 ones as I didn't get full access to the game till the release of KOTFE due to me being a cheapskate. This also happens to be my first tab target MMO so it was even worse for me learning how to play as it had nothing to draw my skills from. I'm more of a FPS... RTS ... and third person shooter fan.

 

Which HM is more difficult than Rav and ToS?

 

I've pugged through DF and DP as well.

 

Pugging successfully 5 levels over the content doesn't count.

 

And how is SM going to teach them? The first boss' mech is very very easy, all the problem you got is DPS.

 

It's provides a starter gate meaning you still need to work on your rotations before you can attempt to comprehend the mechanics so you can master one thing before going onto the next. So your not swamped with new information overloading your brain like it does now with going into SM and HM.

 

Why shouldn't they? It's their freedom to do it.

 

That has nothing to do once again with what we were originally talking about....

Edited by peter_plankskull
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I don't feel like you did any of these raids when they were actually the top level content. Today, HM Rav and ToS are the only ones with any challenging fights. None of the iterations of TFB have been anywhere close to the launch version. Horror was always pretty easy as long as DPS didn't pull aggro.

You are saying 3.0 NIM SnV pug run is easier than 4.0 HM SnV guild run?

Oh really? Then why didn't most of the pugs run for non EV/KP HM unless there is priority?

 

 

But the second fight required massive amounts of healing in the lightning phase. Groups 100% wiped on that fight if they couldn't kill the first guy before the second lightning phase which wasn't an easy task at the time. Operator IX was the most mechanically intensive fight in the game. Any small mistake could easily kill the group. The healing and DPS requirements on Kephess were extremely high. Before it got nerfed a few months in, killing all of the orb spawns between tentacles on TFB required a massive amount of DPS from all parties and healing to keep everyone up.

So what? To learn the fight well, you need to go through wipes to actually learn it.

 

 

These raids on HM have never been easier in the game's history. And the old SM versions had almost all of the same mechanics, just with less harsh penalties and much lower HPS/DPS requirements. It was literally the best preparation for HM possible. You had to keep your awareness of the mechanics and execute your role as well. You also needed the gear to even start HM, unlike now where you can do EV/KP HM in 180s with 6 alts and be geared out.

 

But there were fewer players interested in raids, especially focus on it, not anymore. Why. didn't. you. see. it? SWTOR's ops only got 16 men at most, it was much better than WOW vanilla's 40 men, but the era is different now, see the problem?

 

Seriously, take back the SM preparation nonsense, just have patience with people and they are going to learn it.

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That doesn't have anything relevant to what I just said is an attempt to turn it around on me.... Although if you must know I didn't try it because I was new to operations at the time and stuck with the level 50 ones as I didn't get full access to the game till the release of KOTFE due to me being a cheapskate. This also happens to be my first tab target MMO so it was even worse for me learning how to play as it had nothing to draw my skills from. I'm more of a FPS... RTS ... and third person shooter fan.

So do not discredit others for their run if you didn't know that era well.

 

Pugging successfully 5 levels over the content doesn't count.

It was pug run. Also, why should people start from Rav and ToS? There are far many more other HM to do.

 

It's provides a starter gate meaning you still need to work on your rotations before you can attempt to comprehend the mechanics so you can master one thing before going onto the next. So your not swamped with new information overloading your brain like it does now with going into SM and HM.

And they could learn it easily with the bosses in EV, there were little mech to be noticed other than Soa's floor jumping. HM FP could also teach them to DPS well. EV/KP HM is actually easier than some of the HM FP.

 

Seriously, what kind of new information would overload people's brain in EV HM? stay out of circle? Get near boss when it sit down? If people are going to get overloaded with EV HM simply because they haven't done SM, then there is no hope for them to do the hard ones.

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yes thats exactly my point. im asking slowpokeking if he thinks that learning the basics of operations in Hardmode is a good idea.

 

Why not? It's never a big problem as long as you have the patience. EV/KP HM is easier than quite a few of the HM FP other than some DPS check and the puzzle boss.

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So do not discredit others for their run if you didn't know that era well.

 

It doesn't take a genius to notice that being 5 levels over that operation made it significantly easier.

 

Seriously, what kind of new information would overload people's brain in EV HM? stay out of circle? Get near boss when it sit down? If people are going to get overloaded with EV HM simply because they haven't done SM, then there is no hope for them to do the hard ones.

 

Maybe its easier for people with years of a experience with real time world tab target games, but someone like me who is primarily a shooter and RTS fan, this is a lot to take in at once. I was completely and utterly lost when I was doing these in SM my first time taking loads of extra damage and due to the fact I was carried, I never got to properly learn all to much of the mechanics. 4.0 was a nice wake up call and I felt like I had to relearn some of the operations over.

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It doesn't take a genius to notice that being 5 levels over that operation made it significantly easier.

And most of the mech still works, Bioware also nerfed our stats to greatly reduce the gap.

 

 

 

Maybe its easier for people with years of a experience with real time world tab target games, but someone like me who is primarily a shooter and RTS fan, this is a lot to take in at once. I was completely and utterly lost when I was doing these in SM my first time taking loads of extra damage and due to the fact I was carried, I never got to properly learn all to much of the mechanics. 4.0 was a nice wake up call and I felt like I had to relearn some of the operations over.

 

So what? Just have patience to learn it, don't be afraid to wipe, it's never hard(EV KP HM). Once you get familiar there is no problem with it. 10 years ago there was no story mode in MMO, just the heck hard raid.

 

The hard thing isn't the difficulty, it's the people right? They don't like it when you make mistake and get wiped.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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And most of the mech still works, Bioware also nerfed our stats to greatly reduce the gap.

 

Nerfed or not, its still easy mode compared to doing it on level. Yes.... you must still do the mechanics, but you no longer have to worry about DPS checks or healing from damage taken which allows plenty more lee way for taking longer to do the mechanics.

 

So what? Just have patience to learn it, don't be afraid to wipe, it's never hard. Once you get familiar there is no problem with it. 10 years ago there was no story mode in MMO, just the heck hard raid.

 

The hard thing isn't the difficulty, it's the people right? They don't like it when you make mistake and get wiped.

 

Thank you for the encouragement and inspiring confidence, but more often than not I do the HMs in my guild. The few times I do try to pug a HM that isn't KP or EV it never goes well, not normally because of peoples attitudes, but because of the skill of people. Yeah theirs that tank that leaves after a single wipe or something, but several attempts of no progress is what kills the run usually. I honestly don't even think I even passed a HM pug besides Ev and KP since 4.0 dropped.

Edited by peter_plankskull
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Nerfed or not, its still easy mode compared to doing it on level. Yes.... you must still do the mechanics, but you no longer have to worry about DPS checks or healing from damage taken which allows plenty more lee way for taking longer to do the mechanics.

It was still harder than most of the HM and it was with pugs.

No, NIM Styrak requires really good DPS to kill the big manifestation in the middle while you use snare/cc on the little ones. Most of the pugs still don't step into NIM without full team without achievement.

 

Thank you for the encouragement and inspiring confidence, but more often than not I do the HMs in my guild. The few times I do try to pug a HM that isn't KP or EV it never goes well, not normally because of peoples attitudes, but because of the skill of people. Yeah theirs that tank that leaves after a single wipe or something, but several attempts of no progress is what kills the run usually. I honestly don't even think I even passed a HM pug besides Ev and KP since 4.0 dropped.

 

Because it's too hard for pugs, not because people lack of SM training. Even in 3.0, most of the pugs wipe badly in TFB and all the 55 HM. My guild suffered 30+wipes before we got Brontes. The problem is the difficulty plus they are group content, people without experience couldn't find a stable group to keep trying on it so they gave up and the gap becomes bigger and bigger. THIS is the problem.

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No thanks. SM is good where it's at.

 

We know how you feel about raiders... and such....

 

Instead of just going "Nope... everything is fine... SM is good..." why not explain why SM is fine or try to counter the arguments. Say what you will about slow poke but he defends his subject till death... whether that's a good thing and how he approaches it is up to others to speculate however.

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We know how you feel about raiders... and such....

 

Instead of just going "Nope... everything is fine... SM is good..." why not explain why SM is fine or try to counter the arguments. Say what you will about slow poke but he defends his subject till death... whether that's a good thing and how he approaches it is up to others to speculate however.

 

He has actually put me off reading through this topic since I know it's going to be the same topic hijack nonsense he usually posts.

 

To the topic ... it's fine as it is - doesn't need to be easier or more difficult as making it more difficult makes less "new to the content" people willing to run the content and thus less people doing the content overall. It won't encourage people to come back to the game to do the content as they've still done it all before.

 

We want to encourage Bioware to make more raids so any change that will reduce the amount of people raiding is a bad thing.

 

Much like the "make it easier" crowd really just want a means to run it solo or with companions which stops it even being a raid or group content anymore and will give even less reason for decent group based content to be developed.

 

In short raids are great now as they are ... we just need more of them.

 

The one change I wouldn't mind though is new raids could be developed to be 2-3 boss raids so they are quicker and can be released more often ( bi-monthly ) plus can have on going story between releases ( just like chapters )

- with an on going theme/story they could then do a 3-5 part raid in the same environment being able to recycle many assets and save on money etc.

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We know how you feel about raiders... and such....

 

Instead of just going "Nope... everything is fine... SM is good..." why not explain why SM is fine or try to counter the arguments. Say what you will about slow poke but he defends his subject till death... whether that's a good thing and how he approaches it is up to others to speculate however.

Because SM's purpose is to let everyone be able to experience the content?

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No thanks. SM is good where it's at.

While I agree that SM is good where it's at, I find your contribution to this thread rather disingenuous.

 

You don't raid. You also express heavy contempt for those that do. SM ops could be deleted from the game completely and you would probably not blink an eye.

 

So why do YOU care whether or not they're buffed?

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And most of the mech still works

 

Just to point out, that when we did SNV NiM before 4.0 we screwed up many times on most of the bosses, but we still managed to down them. Part of it was that we were able to improvise and we was flexible enough to switch positions/targets/etc. But the most part was that we were 5 levels higher, and about 5 gear tiers higher than the intended level. Twist as much as you want, but you cannot say that ovelrleveled and overgeared is as much punishing as of now.

Edited by VegasTheLost
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You are saying 3.0 NIM SnV pug run is easier than 4.0 HM SnV guild run?

Oh really? Then why didn't most of the pugs run for non EV/KP HM unless there is priority?

 

 

 

So what? To learn the fight well, you need to go through wipes to actually learn it.

 

 

 

 

But there were fewer players interested in raids, especially focus on it, not anymore. Why. didn't. you. see. it? SWTOR's ops only got 16 men at most, it was much better than WOW vanilla's 40 men, but the era is different now, see the problem?

 

Seriously, take back the SM preparation nonsense, just have patience with people and they are going to learn it.

 

It's clear you have nothing to actually add to the conversation besides your repeated 3-4 comments. You keep mentioning some single instance of everything working fine for you and use that as your basis for why banging your head against the wall in HMs is the only way to learn. Forget any amount of research that shows you learn easier in pieces than all at once. I'm sure if you were going to memorize a speech, you would just keep reading the whole thing until you remembered it all instead of learning it in pieces and putting them together as you go along.

 

You're living in this fake forum world where everyone is against you and everyone just wants people to fail so we can say how much better we are when literally everyone asking for SM changes has already said that it would be preferable to have an option like SM is now for the casual player with 2 other modes to have a lower tier and higher tier of the operation. We all know, however, that BW is not going to support 3 versions of anything. If they are going to continue producing raids, then they may as well make 2 versions that raiders will actually enjoy. Create one that the average raider can complete and one that will be a challenge instead of one that is braindead and one that the average raider can complete.

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You are saying 3.0 NIM SnV pug run is easier than 4.0 HM SnV guild run?

Oh really? Then why didn't most of the pugs run for non EV/KP HM unless there is priority?

 

exactly, 3.0 NM SnV was easier than 4.0 HM now

Edited by hunterlue
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That does not matter. The tool provides it and that is the problem. It makes OPS easier than they are designed to be, because you have information in real time that otherwise would not be available to you.

It is an unallowed 3rd party program and falls into the cheating sector of the TOS.

 

Hey there, just to clarify: StarParse is definitely NOT in any TOS violation as it does not interact with the game and does process only data provided by the game for the sole purpose of parsing. I personaly checked its compliance with a Bioware rep, you can do it too if my humble word is not enough :-)

 

Anyways, regarding the "makes stuff easier" bit - yes, I also believe StarParse does make certain aspects of the combat easier (great example is Revan HM 3rd floor pull/push timers). However, I would argue that those are not the deciding factors whether a raid team or individual would beat the encounter or not. In other words, StarParse is more of a "convenience" (or QoL if you will) for those who has or would overcome the challenge anyway, somewhat streamlining the play for them,rather than something enabling less-skilled raiders to kill a boss.

 

Also as already pointed out, the difficulty of WOW does not come from "hidden" mechanics (requiring you to use your own stopwatch), but rather from perfect execution and coordination requirements based on something clearly presented to you (literally showing you where to stand and when to move), allowing the raids to be much more complex and one tier (if not several) above anything SWTOR can offer in terms of dificulty.

 

Last but not least, I believe noone would argue being able to analyze your own output (DPS, HPS, ...) leads to a better gaming performance (and experience).

 

TL;DR

StarParse does fully comply with SWTOR TOS

Timers etc are more of a QoL/convenience, not a deciding factor of a succesfull raid

Visible mechanics does not imply trivialized content, quite on the contrary - they allow for more interesting fights

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Also as already pointed out, the difficulty of WOW does not come from "hidden" mechanics (requiring you to use your own stopwatch), but rather from perfect execution and coordination requirements based on something clearly presented to you (literally showing you where to stand and when to move), allowing the raids to be much more complex and one tier (if not several) above anything SWTOR can offer in terms of dificulty.

 

I haven't been in the WoW raiding scene in a while but don't they have the Deadly Boss Mods add-on? aka Starparse on steroids?

 

I always got the impression that WoW makes their harder difficulty raids with DBM in mind.

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It's clear you have nothing to actually add to the conversation besides your repeated 3-4 comments. You keep mentioning some single instance of everything working fine for you and use that as your basis for why banging your head against the wall in HMs is the only way to learn. Forget any amount of research that shows you learn easier in pieces than all at once. I'm sure if you were going to memorize a speech, you would just keep reading the whole thing until you remembered it all instead of learning it in pieces and putting them together as you go along.

What pieces? If you have trouble to learn those mechanics, don't do HM.

 

You're living in this fake forum world where everyone is against you and everyone just wants people to fail so we can say how much better we are when literally everyone asking for SM changes has already said that it would be preferable to have an option like SM is now for the casual player with 2 other modes to have a lower tier and higher tier of the operation. We all know, however, that BW is not going to support 3 versions of anything. If they are going to continue producing raids, then they may as well make 2 versions that raiders will actually enjoy. Create one that the average raider can complete and one that will be a challenge instead of one that is braindead and one that the average raider can complete.

Sorry most of the players don't care that much at HM at all, they just want to do SM. There are challenge in SM for pugs, it's probably braindead to some guild raiders, but not to everyone, why can't you understand it?

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Seriously, I've wiped quite a few times in these "brain dead" content with pug groups, bosses like M&B, the Cartel Warlords, Styrak and the DP bosses aren't that easy for pugs. Imagine what if they were further buffed.

 

So PUGs can do NiM SnV, but can't clear SM stuff now? Which is it? And for the record, I'm totally fine with poorly coordinated PUGs having to deal with a few wipes in SM content.

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How? Chained Manifestations is much more difficult to dealt, there are knockback in the Kell Dragon phase, the little illusions spawn at random places

 

oh please your dps was so high that you had to knockback each 1 time.

 

a little bit more awareness is needed for the illusions but you just had to assign one side to each player, they just had to react a bit quicker to get to them in time now, really no big deal

 

and what does the knockback matter at the kelldragon phase if anyone can facetank his spikes because they have like 15k more hp than intended and are 6 gear tiers higher.

 

now the mechanics of the hm version today are obviously much easier, but the DPS required to down him is much more challengeing than doing it in 3.0 NM

Edited by hunterlue
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Seriously, I've wiped quite a few times in these "brain dead" content with pug groups, bosses like M&B, the Cartel Warlords, Styrak and the DP bosses aren't that easy for pugs. Imagine what if they were further buffed.

 

You understand that what the OP is talking about is not so much a buff, but rather putting back mechanics that were always in SM content that have been removed recently.

 

Are you trying to say that SM content used to be too difficult?

 

I do not think I've ever once heard that a SM fight was too hard for a group to complete simply due to its mechanics.

 

It's always been because of some anomaly encounter with out-of-whack outgoing damage or dps requirements.

 

In all seriousness, was Phase 1 of Kephess the Undying (TFB) a raid stopper? My strong recollection (like 99.99% sure) is that people hated the Phase 2 blue circle mechanic more than the P1 pillar mechanic.

 

What is the one fight that stops pugs due to mechanics (and mechanics alone)? I'm honestly trying to think.

 

Perhaps Vorgath. But -the mechanics still exist in that fight, and you folks insist SM is fine so that must be ok to you.

Op 9? I have been in pugs where we've seen 4 blue phases. And again, still exists - and you all say it's fine.

 

Maybe there's one. I can't think of it though.

 

So I'm curious what is so damning to people in suggesting that perhaps removing the tank swap from Toth/Zorn didn't really accomplish much other than to make sure on HHM day that you're more likely to get a tank that has never done it?

 

Was SM Toth and Zorn a pug killer? I don't recall it ever being so, and that mechanic was in the game for 3 years before it was removed.

 

I guess I just don't get it.

 

I really am not sure why "SM content is fine now" with, say, MB tuned as it is - yet somehow putting the pillar mechanic back into Kephess would utterly wreck SM.

 

It doesn't makes sense at all to me.

Edited by gabigool
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