I forgot to add in missle blast. THIS IS JUST TOO FUNNY!

 

i am absolutely giddy right now because Im still doing just as well as everyone else in reg warzones using 3 buttons. Rapid Shots, Incendiary, and Missle Blast......I have what you call a **** eating grin on my face when i play like this. I have never had so much fun.

 

I often wonder about folks like you.

 

 

How do you take personal pleasure in something that has nothing to do with you, and even reveals how inadequate you are? (nevermind, there's that whole PreMade thread full of the same types)

 

*snip* .

 

just let it go. there is no point in getting into a debate over this when there are much larger, pressing issues to deal with regarding the class

So painful to pvp as gunnery. The class needs to be able to deliver 100% damage output while engaged at melee or it will never be able to compete with the classes that can. Going toe to toe vs. any other class with the same gear level, blowing all cooldowns and playing perfectly should result in about a 50/50 win/loss ration. If this does not happen then the class needs work. Currently gunnery needs to be nurse maided through by their team to provide lower average damage output.

 

Commando assault is better off. They can deliver damage on the move. They need the option to trigger HIB off stock strike like vanguard assault. This one change would increase their viability without changing really anything else. To compensate allow vanguard to proc HIB off full auto...this will not increase their burst, just give them more options.

 

Combat medic needs an escape and better resource management so they can keep up with the other healers. Couple other small changes will make them fine.

I suggest you brush up on your math as well as your reading skills. The numbers Cash used either assumed CGC never proc'ed or assumed that CGC proc'ed 100% of the time for both RapidShots and PowerShot. This is clearly flawed given the higher chance of CGC proc'ing with RapidShots. I did not *ignore* those numbers. Rather I presented the CORRECT numbers using the proper probability function for CGC proc'ing. And the result, which you know, but chose to *ignore* is that RapidShots does more damage than PowerShot.

 

Nor did I ignore the issue of RailShot procing. Instead I pointed out the limited window in which one could plausibly attempt to use PowerShot and the multitude of issues (interrupts, stuns, cc's, knockbacks, target movement, cc's on target, AoE on you) that degrade any chance of success. I will note that by using iterative techniques it is possible to determine the crossover probability for these events at which time it *is* efficient to use PowerShot, i.e. when the probability of being interrupted, stunned, cc'ed etc. is below that level PowerShot can be viable (again in the limited time window presented). I'll spare you the mathematics, although something tells me you will demand to see it down the road. But at any rate, that crossover percentage is right at 12%. In other words, IF you are at the right time window in your rotation sequence, AND the combined chance of being interrupted, stunned, cc'ed, pushed back, target moving behind LoS, target being cc'ed or having AoE placed on you is below 12% for that GCD, then there is a very marginal benefit to using PowerShot. That is the bare thread on which PowerShot useage hangs. And even then it is a horribly inefficient heat management strategy. Bottom line: PowerShot sucks.

 

 

Awww macro, I missed you, truly I did. I was starting to think you didn't care.

 

 

And I'll concede that powershots/charged bolts sucks. I just think it's superior to Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot supposing you aren't running for your life. (Though as I recall he posted two parses on the training dummy. Now we both know dummy vs actual combat are two different animals, but if I recall right you were claiming Rapid Shots was better period).

 

I WOULD like to see the mathematics actually. Believe it or not I have some training in the area. I'd be interested in how you calculated the probability that you won't be interrupted, CCd, etc. since that is extremely variable in my experience.

 

Cash is right though that there are bigger issues with the class than which of those attacks sucks more.

 

Still waiting on your evidence that BW uses meta averages and ONLY meta averages to determine class balance btw.

bump etc.

So I received an email saying that I could purchase the new expansion at 50% off...no details about upcoming class changes or level bump. How about give me details so I can see if the spec I WANT to play will be returned to competative numbers in PVP?

I suggest checking this out :

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ZachariahPvP

I suggest checking this out :

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ZachariahPvP

 

Wait...a gunnery that was left to free cast...and he did well...not news.

I suggest checking this out :

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ZachariahPvP

 

Yeah, that's me. And I've been pretty vocal about us needing serious improvements. Don't get me wrong, I can mess up pugs all day long given half a chance, but that's not where our problems are.

I suggest checking this out :

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ZachariahPvP

 

Pretty sure Zach will be the first to tell you the class has problems. Oh wait he totally already did.

Well push finally came to shove.

 

The neglect of the only class I actually like in mando has gone on long enough and I simply do not enjoy playing it these days you can avoid the smash monkeys all you like but your still a sub par DPS even when left alone.

 

I've found myself logging in mulling around fleet answering new players questions and then logging out as I simply can't be bothered to even enter warzones a bit of boredom on the zones available and knowing how they are going to pan out before you even start them.

 

I'd say a year is more than enough time for it to become enjoyable and to see a fun semi balanced PVP arise out of the ILUM ashes but that simply hasnt been the case and I have lost all faith in BW as a dev team especially on the PVP side of things. I fear going forward thing's are only going to get worse not better when the additional 5 levels come and I for one do not want to be here at that time.

 

I'll head off into the sunset and retire my mando whilst I have another breeze through ME3 and some other single player games I am yet to get to.

 

Stay strong my fellow mando's especially those like myself who have persevered with the class since day 1 I'm sure one day you may get the attention the profession needs.

Donno mate, if they change the whole expertise BS and make it close to low lvl wz style, the world wouldn't crush for mandos and others. The other change is smash ofcourse. If it doesn't crit automatically and gets some nerf to 4k crit at least, i can accept it. The last question is how they change the whole skill trees on 55 lvl. If they give the other smashlike skill to marauders/juggers and another shi*ty 10m grenade to mandos/mercs, i'll just leave the game. I won't be able to suck balls the next year again. Now i can play only random WZs with my really well geared friends. Only in this case i can deal pretty fine damage but incomparable with monkeys anyway, far from it tbh. Time will tell, what can i say.

Donno mate, if they change the whole expertise BS and make it close to low lvl wz style, the world wouldn't crush for mandos and others. The other change is smash ofcourse. If it doesn't crit automatically and gets some nerf to 4k crit at least, i can accept it. The last question is how they change the whole skill trees on 55 lvl. If they give the other smashlike skill to marauders/juggers and another shi*ty 10m grenade to mandos/mercs, i'll just leave the game. I won't be able to suck balls the next year again. Now i can play only random WZs with my really well geared friends. Only in this case i can deal pretty fine damage but incomparable with monkeys anyway, far from it tbh. Time will tell, what can i say.

 

I think that the major class update around the corner (1.7 and/or the expansion, not sure which or possibly both) is going to be a watershed moment, for better or for worse. It's been over half a year since the last major class balancing (1.2) and by the time we reach it we'll probably be closer to a year. I think a lot of people will be using this update to determine whether they stay or go. And as much as I've defended the game, I'm part of that group watching and waiting.

I think that the major class update around the corner (1.7 and/or the expansion, not sure which or possibly both) is going to be a watershed moment, for better or for worse. It's been over half a year since the last major class balancing (1.2) and by the time we reach it we'll probably be closer to a year. I think a lot of people will be using this update to determine whether they stay or go. And as much as I've defended the game, I'm part of that group watching and waiting.

I don't think they are going to do much class balance before the launch of Makeb (spring=late May in BW terminology). They'll perhaps add some lackluster escape ability as a level 55 ability or as a skill high up in the skill tree to prevent commando/merc hybrids. Sadly with Biowares track record I'm guessing the coming class balance patch and/or Makeb will have the same effect on me as the combat upgrade in SWG had on me.

Whatever they do to "balance" our class had better be magical.. because 1 year of serious butt pounding has gotten on my nerves. The length of life I have in pvp is directly related to how long it takes for somebody to notice me. Frankly that is unacceptable. We have heavy armor, but less defense than any cloth wearer in the game. We are supposed to be the DPS BH,.. but we can be easily beated by any Powertech.. who still has 10 times the survivability that we have (Maybe I should avoid multiples, being that anything multiplied by "0" is still "0").

 

There is frankly no reason to pick this class. Even our healing is weaker than everybody's healing.

 

I find the best part of this class.. is I have to stand completely still for most of my attacks,.. thereby negating any advantages that range had to offer. At least snipers get a shield to hide behind. We just have to stand there and pretend to be a punching bag for every class in the game that looks our way.

 

I am really disappointed with Bioware's apparent lack of vision (had to quote the emperor here) when it comes to this class.

 

*edit* and frankly I forgot to mention the nerf we had where our rocket punch does not knock them back any more. I guess having a "snowballs chance in hell" was too good.. so they decided to reduce it to "snowflakes chance". Add in the reduced area of effect for my Death from Above (which is frankly way too small to make it useful).. while at the same time you have given multiple buffs to sentinals, who needed it like Bill Gates needs a car loan.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Jaruslothran

I've heard the "watershed moment" line before. I heard it before 1.2 after the idiocy that was 1.1. I've even used that line before. And yet I've been disappointed each time. Maybe it's because it seemed 1.2 was nothing but nerfs and every other buff since has been very minor or straight up fixing something broken (deadly cannon comes to mind).

 

I have no clue why Commando seems to have been balanced for a completely different game, but it was.

 

I'm going into the next class balance patch hopeful, but not expectant. I've long since switched to shadow for PVP, and now I'll just hope they don't nerf that class into the ground like some idiots keep wanting.

The pending arrival of Makeb-55 makes 1.7 class changes frankly irrelevant. The devs know that too, which is why they can delay any meaningful buff to Merc in 1.7. From the standpoint of the player base, the only thing we can glean from 1.7 is whether or not the devs actually understand their own game or not. I would expect a minor buff/nerf to JetBoost. Something like making it remove all movement impairing effects when utilized and giving a speed boost for 2 sec, at the expense of increasing the heat cost from 16 to 35. This allows them to say they are addressing the "survivability" of Merc dps while at the same time nerfing Merc dps damage output, which is their primary goal.

 

I WOULD like to see the mathematics actually. Believe it or not I have some training in the area. I'd be interested in how you calculated the probability that you won't be interrupted, CCd, etc. since that is extremely variable in my experience....Still waiting on your evidence that BW uses meta averages and ONLY meta averages to determine class balance btw.

 

Again, with the reading comprehension....I stated in my prior post that one can determine the crossover point at which an interrupt/stun/cc/etc. probability makes PowerShot more efficient than not using PowerShot for RailShot procs. That is different than calculating the probability you will be interrupt/stun/cc-ed. If you had a mathematical background, that would be evident.

 

As far as the calculations themselves, they are fairly easy. Ave time for a RailShot cycle (measured from last Unload proc) if you never use PowerShot is 7.70 GCDs. This comes from an 11 GCD cycle if Unload fails to proc and a 2 RS/14 GCD cycle if Unload procs.

 

If you do decide to use PowerShot, you must wait for one intervening GCD after the Unload proc'ed RS is used, otherwise PS can not proc. After that we can calculate the weighted average time to complete the cycle with a probability weighting of (.45-k) for the 6 GCD cycle, (.45-k)(.55) for the 7 GCD cycle, (.45-k)(.55)^2 for the 8 GCD cycle, and so on. Where k is the chance of being interrupt/stun/cc/pushbacked/etc. This iterative function is truncated and backfilled to the (.45-k)(.55)^6 step because if you fail to proc RS by that time, RS is off CD naturally. Additionally we need to add in the sequence for what happens if you get interrupted, which is moved two GCDs down the series (interrupt actually pushes it down by 2.66 GCDs, but I am fudging in favor of PowerShot). That sequence adds a weight of k(.45-k) for the 9 GCD cycle, .55k(.45-k) for the 10 GCD cycle, and also truncates and backfills for the 11 GCD cycle. Adding those all together and solving for k such that the function has a total weighted value of 7.70 GCDs gives us a value of k = .075.

 

This is well below the prior stated value of 12%, but I am fudging to account for any objection on the 2 GCD penalty for interrupt/stun/cc/etc. But the unavoidable result is that unless you are assured that you will not be interrupted, stunned, cc'ed, pushed back, target is cc'ed, target moves out of LoS, target dies before you can complete PS, etc., then PS is not going to get you more RailShots. The reason for this evidently is not intuitive to you. But the best explanation is that even if you do proc RS via PS, all you have done is delay when RS naturally comes off CD - and you are relying on that to get your 2 RS combo via Unload. In other words a success with PS is reducing your frequency of 2 RS combos with Unload. That is what the math is saying ultimately.

The pending arrival of Makeb-55 makes 1.7 class changes frankly irrelevant. The devs know that too, which is why they can delay any meaningful buff to Merc in 1.7. From the standpoint of the player base, the only thing we can glean from 1.7 is whether or not the devs actually understand their own game or not. I would expect a minor buff/nerf to JetBoost. Something like making it remove all movement impairing effects when utilized and giving a speed boost for 2 sec, at the expense of increasing the heat cost from 16 to 35. This allows them to say they are addressing the "survivability" of Merc dps while at the same time nerfing Merc dps damage output, which is their primary goal.

 

I agree with this for the most part. I dunno that it's totally irrelevent since if 1.7 releases in January and the expansion comes out in late May ("Spring" being the nebulous term that it is), class balance can be very important during the interim. I 100% agree though that the most important thing we'll glean from 1.7 is how BW understands their game. Changes like root added to stockstrike showed a fundamental lack of understanding. A change like your hypothetical would show they have a better, if still very flawed, one for the reasons you said.

 

Again, with the reading comprehension....I stated in my prior post that one can determine the crossover point at which an interrupt/stun/cc/etc. probability makes PowerShot more efficient than not using PowerShot for RailShot procs. That is different than calculating the probability you will be interrupt/stun/cc-ed. If you had a mathematical background, that would be evident.

 

Reading comprehension and mathematical training are two different things chief. I spend pretty much all of my time with professional mathematicians. It's not that uncommon to misunderstand what the person presenting was saying. I see it happen every week between people who are way smarter than either of us combined. I reviewed your last post and I now realize my error. My bad yo.

 

As far as the calculations themselves, they are fairly easy. Ave time for a RailShot cycle (measured from last Unload proc) if you never use PowerShot is 7.70 GCDs. This comes from an 11 GCD cycle if Unload fails to proc and a 2 RS/14 GCD cycle if Unload procs.

 

If you do decide to use PowerShot, you must wait for one intervening GCD after the Unload proc'ed RS is used, otherwise PS can not proc. After that we can calculate the weighted average time to complete the cycle with a probability weighting of (.45-k) for the 6 GCD cycle, (.45-k)(.55) for the 7 GCD cycle, (.45-k)(.55)^2 for the 8 GCD cycle, and so on. Where k is the chance of being interrupt/stun/cc/pushbacked/etc. This iterative function is truncated and backfilled to the (.45-k)(.55)^6 step because if you fail to proc RS by that time, RS is off CD naturally. Additionally we need to add in the sequence for what happens if you get interrupted, which is moved two GCDs down the series (interrupt actually pushes it down by 2.66 GCDs, but I am fudging in favor of PowerShot). That sequence adds a weight of k(.45-k) for the 9 GCD cycle, .55k(.45-k) for the 10 GCD cycle, and also truncates and backfills for the 11 GCD cycle. Adding those all together and solving for k such that the function has a total weighted value of 7.70 GCDs gives us a value of k = .075.

 

This is well below the prior stated value of 12%, but I am fudging to account for any objection on the 2 GCD penalty for interrupt/stun/cc/etc. But the unavoidable result is that unless you are assured that you will not be interrupted, stunned, cc'ed, pushed back, target is cc'ed, target moves out of LoS, target dies before you can complete PS, etc., then PS is not going to get you more RailShots. The reason for this evidently is not intuitive to you. But the best explanation is that even if you do proc RS via PS, all you have done is delay when RS naturally comes off CD - and you are relying on that to get your 2 RS combo via Unload. In other words a success with PS is reducing your frequency of 2 RS combos with Unload. That is what the math is saying ultimately.

 

Intuitive or not has not much to do with it. If it was the most intuitive thing in the world, I'd still ask to see the math. Math can be funny in being VERY counter intuitive at times. Was it that hard? That was a very nice concise explanation with a few personal digs at my intelligence that neither of us can seem to avoid when speaking to each other.

 

Anyway, with the way PS/CB procs IA are you sure you have to delay by a full GCD? I've never actually tried it out on an ops dummy (which is the only place I could concentrate enough and not have the game going on around me mess with things). But it seems you could do HiB > Full Auto (resets HiB immediately if at all ) > HiB > CB and since CB procs a refresh on the end of cast instead of the beginning, the internal cooldown might well be up at the end depending on lag and if you took alacrity talent or muzzle fluting.

 

Anyway, it seems to me that the takeaway is if we're being left to free cast (hanging out on the edges, somehow being lucky enough to be noticed) then go ahead and use Charged Bolts/Power Shot. If you're under pressure then don't since chances are you're just wasting a GCD that could be spent Hammer Shotting/Rapids Shotting, and running, which coincidentally is the take away I've always gotten from your recommended playstyle, even if you do seem to treat that 7.5% as more or less 0, whereas I'd prefer to push the odds somewhat.

 

As to the last bit, that is a very good explanation, thank you, and that bit makes sense, and that bit IS perfectly intuitive. The question is though is are you that reliant on having the double RS combo? If left to free cast so long that it would actually matter, then using CB as often as it can reset the cooldown is probably always going to result in more HiBs and better DPS overall period. Only time that really seems pertinent though is in a PVE setting, and as I don't play that spec in PVE I could be way off base. In PVP settings, with movement and what not being what it is, the fact that you might shortchange a HiB > FA > HiB opportunity is much less relevant in my opinion, as awesome as that particular burst combo is when you can get it off.

 

I WOULD say that the HiB you can get off in the middle of a fight now is probably better than the theoretical short change you'll face later, but if you get interrupted, you get interrupted and we have the above recommended course of action. If the idiots are letting you do it though, I'd still recommend copious amounts of powershot. A big if as always.

Pretty sure Zach will be the first to tell you the class has problems. Oh wait he totally already did.

 

They need a buff but grave round or tracer misile need to be part of a rotation or pop up after a rotation to avoid spaming it.

They need a buff but grave round or tracer misile need to be part of a rotation or pop up after a rotation to avoid spaming it.

 

It is part of a rotation. Unfortunately everything in the tree is tied to it. Curtain of fire? Procced by grav round. Charged Barrel (6% increase in HiB Damage per stack)? Stacks come from Grav Round. Debuff which boosts Demo Round damage by 5% per stack? You guessed it! Grav Round.

 

People don't just spam grav round for the lulz. Everything in the tree is tied to it. There are 4 basic offensive abilities in the Gunnery rotation and unfortunately 3 of them depend on Grav Round, and the 4th is Grav Round.

It is part of a rotation. Unfortunately everything in the tree is tied to it. Curtain of fire? Procced by grav round. Charged Barrel (6% increase in HiB Damage per stack)? Stacks come from Grav Round. Debuff which boosts Demo Round damage by 5% per stack? You guessed it! Grav Round.

 

People don't just spam grav round for the lulz. Everything in the tree is tied to it. There are 4 basic offensive abilities in the Gunnery rotation and unfortunately 3 of them depend on Grav Round, and the 4th is Grav Round.

 

I think this what a lot of people just don't understand about the class. It's not that we spam Grav Round because we want to, it's because we have to.

 

Worst thing is that when BW does give us something new, i.e. insta heal with EMP, they tie it to Charged Barrel which is, of course, tied to Grav Round which makes us spam it for another reason.

Bioware needs to either redesign gunnery so that's it's not totally dependent on one ability, or make grave round immune to interrupts. Edited December 21, 2012 by VarrusTheEthical

I think that the major class update around the corner (1.7 and/or the expansion, not sure which or possibly both) is going to be a watershed moment, for better or for worse. It's been over half a year since the last major class balancing (1.2) and by the time we reach it we'll probably be closer to a year. I think a lot of people will be using this update to determine whether they stay or go. And as much as I've defended the game, I'm part of that group watching and waiting.

 

This (the 1.7, or the PvP class balancing) is exactly what will determine my staying or leaving...

 

when SWTOR came out, i told myself and my friends playing that i would give this game a year...a SOLID year.

 

1.2 almost made a liar out of me...but, i stuck with it, and have only seen further and further descent into the PvP abyss for once fun, enjoyable, and competative classes such as: Mercs, dps 'sin, dps op, and non-bubble sorcs.

 

the absolute inability to play these classes, competatively, in RWZ (or even semi-competative nonRWZ) is my breaking point.

 

every class, EVERY spec should be viable and somewhat balanced in PvP...which was once the case, in Pre 1.2, imo.

 

and as i tried to support the dieing Merc community, even being in somewhat of denial at the fading viability of the Merc, it was only a matter of time before reality became fact. Fact is: Merc is TERRIBLE in PvP!

 

i do just fine in PvE...i'd put my skill/dps output up against the best of the best (not Eric Roberts, tho).

 

but, PvP...no effing way. it's just not fun to be a highly skilled player and get repeatedly raped by the overpopulation of monkeys with lightsabers.

 

so, space sucks, PvP sucks, and PvE is awesome but lacking new (or significantly replayable, i.e. NM mode FP's, 25+ epic(heroic) missions like EQ2, etc.) content.

 

and my first love is PvP...that's how i leveled 5 toons to 50...

 

not SWTOR PvP...not as a Merc.

 

Edited December 21, 2012 by T-Assassin

Without a complete redesign of the tree, and some serious buffs to utility and what not, (the Run and Gun idea I like) I just don't see Gunnery ever being viable in ranked PVP.

 

At least we're iconic. Troopers are supposed to get facerolled by light saber monkeys right?

At least we're iconic. Troopers are supposed to get facerolled by light saber monkeys right?

 

A true Sith Warrior should be able to take out a whole battalion of Troopers on his own!