Probably the easiest way to justify a PT defensive buff/utility buff. Think we should notice that every single class has a defensive buff in legendary except PTs. Legendary Utility Analysis

-Juggernauts add an extra 2 seconds of duration (Making it 5 seconds duration) to saber reflect which absorbs all direct single target damage which is no problem to negate most damage dealt to them in that time.

- Marauders have ruthless aggressor resisting most if not all tech attacks (75% chance) for 6 seconds on obfuscate which has a min CD, or 45 seconds with another utility. And while not used often heal 3% max health while being attacked while saber ward is up called blood ward.

-Sorcs have healing due to their god bubble, static barrier, and added shield after god bubble. And a damage reduction/CD reduction on their self heal (making it 25 second CD and 25% dmg reduction for 6 seconds).

-Sins have force speed absorbing 60% all damage taken for the natural 2 second duration, and increasing the duration of shroud and force speed (by 2 seconds and .5 seconds respectively).

-Mercs have trauma regulators which is an all around agreed, OP utility defensive.

-Snipers make their ballistic shield grant not only damage reduction to themselves with enemies being under the shield upon activation, but also rapid healing, which is more than kolto overload while under their shield. And lets not forget a passive 5% dmg reduction by staying in cover and decreasing ballistic shield CD by 30 seconds, and if chosen 10% max health heal after every roll and adding another 2 seconds to their evasion.

-And Operatives have revitalizers which increases dmg reduction by 20% and healing them 5% max health every 3 seconds both lasting 15 seconds (Which also means it triggers more than a tank or Pyro's shoulder cannon heal). And having Augmented shields increasing shield probes damage it can absorb by 30%.

-Pts on the other hand lack something that contributes as much as every utility as all these other classes have. 3% max health per shoulder cannon isn't a good enough heal to even take, as that is only about 4K heal (assuming 130K health) and tanks normally use shoulder cannon as a threat builder. And only to Dps specs 5% damage reduction for 15 seconds after activating explosive fuel, is such a laughable utility, because to make it even worse, increases your dmg by 5% if you are a tank instead.

~ And this isn't even considering defensive utilities in heroic or lower, because marauders and mercs would just prove this even more, and it would be too long of a list.

 

Now to move onto Tank Comparison. assuming set bonuses

Juggernauts are known for being the CD tank, and thus have really strong CDs.

Saber reflect which was covered above text with a min CD.

Enraged defense which heals roughly 3-4K per charge consumed with 12 charges, pretty strong for rapid hits, and is almost guaranteed effective healing min 30 sec CD on top of that.

Saber ward having the 3min CD, protects against all damage types for 12 seconds, 50% ranged and melee defense (100% for 5 seconds due to tank set bonus boost blade turning, 2 seconds for Dps specs) and absorbing all force/tech damage by 25%.

Invincible 40% dmg reduction for 12 seconds (15 with set bonus) 2min 30 CD, which is basically a stronger Energy shield taking 15% extra dmg reduction for only an added 30 second CD.

Endure Pain a 30% fake health bar for 20 seconds (10 seconds for Dps classes) 1min CD.

And a not widely known one, Intimidating roar decreases melee/range dmg by 15% for 8 seconds on all targets 1min CD.

 

PT tanks: Energy shield increases dmg reduction by 25% for 19 seconds 2min CD. Basically the strongest CD a PT tank has already outclassed by the iconic invincible CD juggs have, and other CDs mentioned about sin in a bit.

Oil slick reduces melee/ranged accuracy of all targets by 15% for 13 seconds, which is an rng defensive that isn't guaranteed, and doesn't help against force/tech, luckily only having a 1min CD.

Explosive fuel increase defense change by 35% for 15 seconds, which like oil slick, defense chance only works against melee/ranged and not force/tech dmg and is an rng defensive, has twice the CD of oil slick at 2min.

Last CD owned by PTs is Kolto overload, which lasts 8 seconds, triggers at 35% or lower, and brings them back up to 35%, tanks heal 2% max health every second while above 35%, which assuming a tank average of 120K health is 2500, a pretty terrible heal which a boss can easily knock away.

~ Hydraulics wasn't included as it is just a knockback prevent skill, no dmg is mitigated when it's used.

 

And now for the rated best tank, sin tank. Force speed covered in the above text, which only has a 15 second CD.

Dark ward, the iconic sin defensive, increases shield rating by 15% as long as it's up, and has a passive that increases absorb rating by up to 10%, CD 10 seconds last 20 seonds (15 charges, and even including chances to not remove charges) and is always up.

Deflection, lasting 15 seconds and a min 50 CD, has half of saber ward's effect, increasing ranged and melee defense chance by 50% for a lower CD.

Recklessness increasing absorb rating by 30% for 20 seconds min 30 CD, seems rather similar to PT's explosive fuel, except instead of defense is absorb, and loses 5% for 30 seconds lower on CD.

The most OP defense at a sins disposal, force shroud, negating all force and tech damage for 5 seconds with utility, 1min CD, and even less due to sin tanks parrying, shielding, etc.

And overcharge saber granting 25% damage reduction for 15 seconds, and healing the player for 15% max health, and heals the tank roughly 2300 max health every time dark charge is triggered 2min CD. Now wait, Overcharge saber looks kinda familiar? a 25% dmg reduction for 15 seconds, that's odd, energy shield does the same but for 4 seconds longer. Oh look there's also 2 healing effects on overcharge saber, that's convenient. And what's also interesting? it has the same CD as energy shield and not even considered their strongest CD unlike PTs, very interesting.

 

Now lets compare tank offensive abilities that add buffs.

Juggs: Aegis Assault increases Damage reduction and Shield Absorb by 3%, 20 second duration, 12 second CD (So it's always up).

Crushing Blow gives 2% damage reduction for 4 seconds, 12 sec CD.

Retaliation increases Melee/Range defense by 3%.

Ravage boosting defense chance by 6%, 6 second duration, 18 second CD.

Force scream applying a moderate damage shield.

Seems like a nice amount of abilities and buffs to have.

 

PT tanks: Heat blast, increasing absorb rating by 30% for 6 seconds and 2% dmg reduction for 5 seconds.

Rocket Punch and Rail Shot add a stack of shield enhancers increasing shield chance by 1% per stack, 3 stacks at most. And that's the end of PT abilities.

 

Assassin tanks: Depredating volts and exiting stealth grant 4% dmg reduction for 12 seconds, which is usually always up unless down time prevents the use of depredating volts. Wither grants 2% dmg reduction for 3 seconds, 10 sec CD. While assassins have only 2 buffs granted by offensive abilities, they have many CDs to compensate.

 

In short in case you skipped to this bottom section due to a lot of words. PTs having little offensive attacks that add buffs like juggs, and the lowest amount CDs that are outclassed, by similar CDs that are owned by juggs and sins alike. PTs just don't have the defense capability to compete. They might have passives on their side, but so do the other tanks, and passives alone just can't compete in any scenario of damage, PvP or Pve.

 

Utility Variety

 

No disagreement there, Energy shield is a powerful CD, the best one a PT has. Main point I was more or less getting to is that Pts don't have many CDs to fall back on compared to the other tanks, and passives aren't what's going to save you from spike damage. Everything helps sure, but without much to fall back on, most people tend to either try to avoid using something so "precious", or end up using it too early and don't have anything to help when a mistake is made later. And I think we all have seen at one point some player pop every DCD in their arsenal all at once because they got nuked, and a PT for instance in pvp, can still die even after activating them all. Sin having shroud as an immunity to force/tech damage, and juggs having blade turning making melee/range damage negated for the first 5 seconds, Pts don't have a guaranteed damage mitigation, which is what they need. People saying "Give PTs the merc reflect" is understandable, finally all tanks have access to a reflect, and PTs get a needed damage absorb defensive. The main problem with this is that they should just give PTs something new, or else they will just keep stealing abilities that already exist in the name of balancing. If that's how it's going to be pretty soon, Saber reflect will be copied by blaster wielders and evasion will be given to force wielders and then everything will be "balanced" by the Dev's eyes. XD

 

Defensive Variety

Any of the important merc utilities, as a passive, would do.

 

I would disagree, because you would lose the difference between PT and Merc. If they give the same broken CDs from merc to PT, then what's the point, PT would just be a melee merc, or a merc a ranged PT. There are different classes for a reason, so I hope Bioware learns that each class should be unique instead of melding them into almost the same thing.

 

Class Defensive Comparison

 

Lets compare class differences and how their physical defenses actually show how unique their class is. (Yes this is only including non utility created defenses)

Warriors, Marauder and Juggernaut:

Juggernaut having:

Saber Ward *

Saber Reflect

Endure Pain

Enraged Defense

 

Marauders having:

Saber Ward *

Undying Rage

Cloak of Pain

Obfuscate

Predation

 

Warriors are a perfect example, they share an iconic CD that works against all damage types (Saber Ward) then they each have CDs that is unique to their class. juggernauts having a reflect against all damage except melee damage, the normal increase max health for a short duration most MMOs give the warrior class, and enraged defense which helps mainly against dot or rapid small hits. Marauder aside from the shared saber ward:Undying rage, the immunity for a short duration, cloak of pain mitigation with small damage back at the attacker, Obfuscate which is their accuracy reducing ability against other classes, and predation increases movement and ranged/melee defense that helps others and self. They basically got the warrior's unique play style in defenses perfectly imo.

 

Inquisitors: Sorcerer and Assassin

Sorcerer having:

Force Barrier

Static Barrier

Self healing

 

Assassins having:

Force Shroud

Deflection

Overcharge Saber

Stealth

 

Inquisitors have the biggest difference, and makes the class you choose unique. The iconic sorcerer 8 second god bubble, static barrier to absorb some damage here and there, and access to self healing as well, being the "mage class." Assassins with their iconic Force shroud which mitigates all force/tech damage (and most mechanics), deflection against melee/ranged damage, their 1 self heal which has an offense charge boost, and their escape with stealth. Two unique force using classes.

 

Agents: Sniper and Operative

Snipers having:

Entrench

Covered Escape

Diversion

Shield Probe *

Evasion *

Ballistic Shield

Imperial Preparation

 

Operatives having:

Exfiltratex2

Shield Probe *

Evasion *

Off heals

Stealth

 

The agents are quite unique in their arsenal of defenses too. While they do share both Shield probe which absorbs some damage taken and Evasion evading melee/ranged attacks (Snipers also mitigates force/tech damage), their other defenses are made to combat different scenarios. Sniper being the "Every possible contingency" class has a button to use for any situation. Entrench to combat any knockback or stun, Covered escape to escape melee enemies or mitigate a giant hit with 100% defense chance, Diversion being their accuracy reducing ability, ballistic shield giving all allies and self damage reduction, and Imperial Preparation, to bring everything off CD yet again for round 2. Operatives being the spy class have to play strategically, having access to fewer CDs than their co advanced class. Having shield probe and evasion just like Snipers, are pretty flexible CDs that can be used in most situations. Operatives having self heals is a big thing, especially since they are heal over time effects so they just apply and move on, Exfiltrate does grant passive defense chance while rolling, but concealment dodges all attacks during their roll, and lethality get access to their off heal Kolto infusion being instant cast and not costing a Tactical Advantage. And just like assassins, they have their escape option by stealth. Both classes have different play styles and the way their CDs have been changed by advanced class does show.

 

While it did take awhile, the main point...

Bounty Hunters: Mercenary and Powertech

Mercenary having:

Energy Shield *

Kolto Overload *

Responsive Safeguards

Hydraulic Overrides *

Off healing

 

Powertechs having:

Energy Shield *

Kolto Overload *

Hydraulic Overrides *

 

That's odd Powertech have nothing unique about their class, but oh well, let the comparison continue.

Mercenary energy shield adds 25% Dmg reduction for the duration, Kolto overload rapidly heals themselves to 35% only triggering if 35% or less, hydraulic overrides which prevents physical knock backs roots etc. with a minor speed boost, Responsive safeguards absorbing all damage taken, reflecting 50% back to attacker, and 5% max health heal per attack absorbed, and having access to self heals. PTs now have energy shield adds 25% Dmg reduction for the duration, Kolto overload rapidly heals themselves to 35% only triggering if 35% or less, hydraulic overrides which prevents physical knock backs roots etc. with a minor speed boost (Yes this was literally copied and pasted). Honestly nothing unique about PTs compared to mercs except that mercs have access to more. It all comes back to my post above, a PT even with the differences in specs and utilities, is a just defensive wise, a melee before 5.0 merc.

And a spec specific one I forgot was AP's sonic missile granting them defense chance (30% for 6 seconds) still

is shared to the IO merc.

 

(Just to take into account utilities to summarize, if PTs had a utility that boosts something other than Hydraulics which doesn't help against physical damage, I'd include utilities, But you know...just another perk of being the forgotten class of Swtor.)

 

Defensive Deterrent

 

It's the sad truth, PTs are the only class without the deterrent factor in their defenses too. Let's pretend I'm a merc for these scenarios.

-If a marauder were to use undying rage, or obfuscate me, you should kite, CC or heal because you won't be doing any damage to them.

-If a juggernaut uses saber reflect stop attacked and cc them, no use to hit yourself anything.

-Operative at this point if I see evasion it's in my self interest to do a quick heal before I test whether they took the 150% reflect or not, or just stun them like always.

-Sniper evasion is pretty strong and mitigates most damage any class can do to them (dodge melee/range and absorb 75% force and tech), that for me at least deserves a quick target swap or at least heal myself for a couple of seconds.

-If a sorc uses god bubble and is actually channeling the full 8 seconds, there's no reason to hit him he's immune to damage, just target swap.

- At this point if you see a sin use shroud as a merc, unless you are willing to rapid shots or blazing bolts/unload is up when they pop shroud, just rocket out and heal.

-And if a PT were to use any defense, I keep on burning them, they have nothing to mitigate or resist any attacks like every other class.

 

PTs are the only class that doesn't have a thing that prevents me from Nuking them with a perfect opener. It's just the sad truth that PTs are still stuck in 2.0.

 

Quick Tank Immunity

 

Isn't it also funny how that seems to be the only thing that the other tanks boast is balanced about their class, making them balanced for pve? Assassins Force shroud is "Makes me immortal for x seconds" and similarly for a jugg's saber reflect absorbing all damage taken. They have their situations though, where force shroud only works on force/tech, and saber reflect only works on single target non melee hits. But they are "Immortal" CDs none the less which PTs don't have.

 

And keep in mind that explosive fuel combined with Oil slick is still RNG based, meaning while slim there is the chance where all hits done to the PT in that 15 second window is never resisted, making it a pseudo immortal defensive combo, as they waste 2 CDs to achieve an imperfect immortal stance.

 

Defensive Summary/Commentary

That's basically what all my posts have come to, whether it's the tank comparison, the utility comparison, or the defensive comparison, PTs just don't have anything.

 

100% agree that kolto overload is a joke, the only instance I find myself using kolto overload, is for the 2nd CC break because of the heroic utility, and I'm using that even if I'm at 60% health just because resolve bar is full. Even lightning sorcs which people complain about their damage, can burn through a PTs kolto overload.

 

 

This is currently most of my posts I've contributed through PT defensive analysis, not defensive ideas. I will be adding more to this as I read over and clarify more into past posts I have made or any other contributor has posted. With a lot more time on my hands I will be able to compare a lot of things I've excluded, and even correct errors made throughout everything above. With the utility changes coming in a matter of 2-3 months I hope this at least gets some feedback and consideration from devs and other players alike.

Edited October 9, 2017 by PrometheanDeath

Now to move onto Tank Comparison. assuming set bonuses

Juggernauts are known for being the CD tank, and thus have really strong CDs.

Saber reflect which was covered above text with a min CD.

Enraged defense which heals roughly 3-4K per charge consumed with 12 charges, pretty strong for rapid hits, and is almost guaranteed effective healing min 30 sec CD on top of that.

2 minute cooldown, 1.5 minute with a utility actually

Saber ward having the 3min CD 2.5 minute cooldown actually, protects against all damage types for 12 seconds, 50% ranged and melee defense (100% for 5 seconds due to tank set bonus boost blade turning, 2 seconds for Dps specs) and absorbing all force/tech damage by 25%.

Invincible 40% dmg reduction for 12 seconds (15 with set bonus) 2min 30 CD, which is basically a stronger Energy shield taking 15% extra dmg reduction for only an added 30 second CD.

Again with this? If you don't understand these abilities, please refrain from commenting on them.

Invincible reduces all damage taken by 40%, which means multiplying damage taken by (1-0.4)=0.6. Energy Shield adds an amount to your already existing damage reduction. In short Energy Shield beats Invincible on Energy/Kinetic damage, which incidentally makes up quite a number of big hitters, while Invincible beats Energy Shield on Internal/Elemental damage. That's not factoring in the lower CD on Energy Shield.

Endure Pain a 30% fake health bar for 20 seconds (10 seconds for Dps classes) 1min CD.

And a not widely known one, Intimidating roar decreases melee/range dmg by 15% for 8 seconds on all targets 1min CD.

 

PT tanks: Energy shield increases dmg reduction by 25% for 19 seconds 2min CD. Basically the strongest CD a PT tank has already outclassed by the iconic invincible CD juggs have, and other CDs mentioned about sin in a bit.

As I mentioned before, it's not entirely outclassed by other tanks DCD's, it's actually a pretty *********** great defensive.

Oil slick reduces melee/ranged accuracy of all targets by 15% for 13 seconds, which is an rng defensive that isn't guaranteed, and doesn't help against force/tech, luckily only having a 1min CD.

Ye this stinks a bit, especially considering this got nerfed when Juggs got the new Intimidating Roar thing, which is somewhat similar. Buff this and remove the intimidating roar cd imo.

Explosive fuel increase defense change by 35% for 15 seconds, which like oil slick, defense chance only works against melee/ranged and not force/tech dmg and is an rng defensive, has twice the CD of oil slick at 2min.

Not true, the defense chance granted by Explosive Fuel DOES help against Force/Tech damage.

It is a bit RNG dependent, but overall fairly strong.

Last CD owned by PTs is Kolto overload, which lasts 8 seconds, triggers at 35% or lower, and brings them back up to 35%, tanks heal 2% max health every second while above 35%, which assuming a tank average of 120K health is 2500, a pretty terrible heal which a boss can easily knock away.

Not amazing agreed, but in terms of usefulness comes pretty closed to Enraged Defense, situationally okay, but often pretty garbage.

~ Hydraulics wasn't included as it is just a knockback prevent skill, no dmg is mitigated when it's used.

 

And now for the rated best tank, sin tank. Force speed covered in the above text, which only has a 15 second CD.

Dark ward, the iconic sin defensive, increases shield rating by 15% as long as it's up, and has a passive that increases absorb rating by up to 10%, CD 10 seconds last 20 seonds (15 charges, and even including chances to not remove charges) and is always up.

This isn't a really fair mention in my opinion, Sins are naturally going to have some stronger always up defensives considering they have much lower DR than Juggs and PTs

Deflection, lasting 15 seconds and a min 50 CD, has half of saber ward's effect, increasing ranged and melee defense chance by 50% for a lower CD.

Recklessness increasing absorb rating by 30% for 20 seconds min 30 CD, seems rather similar to PT's explosive fuel, except instead of defense is absorb, and loses 5% for 30 seconds lower on CD.

Waaay worse than Explosive Fuel. Won't actually make you shield/defend more, just makes shielding somewhat better, which is cool, but not that useful against burst.

The most OP defense at a sins disposal, force shroud, negating all force and tech damage for 5 seconds with utility, 1min CD, and even less due to sin tanks parrying, shielding, etc.

And overcharge saber granting 25% damage reduction for 15 seconds, and healing the player for 15% max health, and heals the tank roughly 2300 max health every time dark charge is triggered 2min CD. Now wait, Overcharge saber looks kinda familiar? a 25% dmg reduction for 15 seconds, that's odd, energy shield does the same but for 4 seconds longer. Oh look there's also 2 healing effects on overcharge saber, that's convenient. And what's also interesting? it has the same CD as energy shield and not even considered their strongest CD unlike PTs, very interesting.

Well maybe if you knew what you were talking about, you'd understand it. The more Damage Reduction you have, the more attractive extra additive Damage Reduction is, I won't bore you with the math here,

but I can work it out if you really want me too. Considering PT's have the highest DR of all the tanks, and Sins have significantly lower DR, 25% DR is much better on a PT than it is on a Sin. The healing on this ability is also pretty mediocre. That, in a nutshell, explains why Energy Shield is valued a lot higher than Overcharge Saber.

 

Now lets compare tank offensive abilities that add buffs.

Juggs: Aegis Assault increases Damage reduction and Shield Absorb by 3%, 20 second duration, 12 second CD (So it's always up).

Crushing Blow gives 2% damage reduction for 4 seconds, 12 sec CD.

Retaliation increases Melee/Range defense by 3%. 5%

Ravage boosting defense chance by 6%, 6 second duration, 18 second CD.

Force scream applying a moderate damage shield.

Seems like a nice amount of abilities and buffs to have.

 

PT tanks: Heat blast, increasing absorb rating by 30% for 6 seconds and 2% dmg reduction for 5 seconds.

Rocket Punch and Rail Shot add a stack of shield enhancers increasing shield chance by 1% per stack, 3 stacks at most. And that's the end of PT abilities.

Don't forget that PT's have the highest Damage Reduction, and thus take less damage from Energy/Kinetic damage attacks than any other tank. That said, PT's could use a buff in the passive mitigation category, since they're lagging behind the other two tanks in dtps without counting CDs.

 

Assassin tanks: Depredating volts and exiting stealth grant 4% dmg reduction for 12 seconds, which is usually always up unless down time prevents the use of depredating volts.

Again, this exists to partly make up for Sins wearing light armor, if you include this, you HAVE to include heavy armor for the other tanks.

Wither grants 2% dmg reduction for 3 seconds, 10 sec CD. While assassins have only 2 buffs granted by offensive abilities, they have many CDs to compensate.

 

...

snip snip

...

 

Quick Tank Immunity

 

Isn't it also funny how that seems to be the only thing that the other tanks boast is balanced about their class, making them balanced for pve?

What does this sentence even mean? The only thing that the other tanks boast is balanced about their class is Saber Reflect and Force Shroud respectively? Do you realize how little sense you make? Surely those are solid abilities, but the only thing that makes them balanced for pve? No way.

Assassins Force shroud is "Makes me immortal for x seconds" and similarly for a jugg's saber reflect absorbing all damage taken. They have their situations though, where force shroud only works on force/tech, and saber reflect only works on single target non melee hits. But they are "Immortal" CDs none the less which PTs don't have.

"Immortal" CD's are hardly immortal if they have condition with the damage taken in. Both are used mainly to counter specific big hitters, but popping either when low on health to try and save your skin will likely not do you any good, as you're pretty always taking damage from other types in any content.

 

Yes PT's need some help in certain department. They could definitely use a buff to Kolto Overload and a buff to passive defensives to help them get more in line with the other tanks. But way undervaluing what PT's do have acces too. Not to mention your post is riddled with blatant misinformation on defensive cooldowns and their comparisons. And this is not the first time I've corrected you calling Energy Shield a weaker version of Invincible and comparing it to Overcharge Saber with absolutely no context of the Damage Reduction of the tanks that have access to them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want PT's to get some defensive buffs, but if you're going to post stuff like this I just can't not argue against you.

Here's how you fix AP in particular:

 

* Make shoulder cannon heals a passive. Replace this utility with one that provides 4 seconds of cc immunity after AoE taunt.

* Change the 30 percent aoe taunt defense chance into a 30 percent DAMAGE REDUCTION. This makes it less rng-heavy.

* Give PT's Kolto Surge (from Merc) as a passive, but adjust it based on the spec. It should be usable while stunned by default.

* Increase range of Rail Shot and Shatter Slug to 15 meters. PT is a midrange class and should feel as such.

 

That should fix most of the problems.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

My bad Adjeyo, I was actually going to use yours post instead of mine, but finding it through a phone compared to my own post is a lot harder than just a simple search of my own. I just copied and pasted the old post so your corrections to it are all warranted. The tank arguments are perfectly valid, but still only a segment of the argument. And I did plan on making changes to my own with your critics because you have more knowledge of tanking compared to what I've read up on. Future changes when I get the time anyhow. Edited October 10, 2017 by PrometheanDeath

(OP - Explosive fuel increase defense change by 35% for 15 seconds, which like oil slick, defense chance only works against melee/ranged and not force/tech dmg and is an rng defensive, has twice the CD of oil slick at 2min)

 

Explosive fuel provides 35% force/tech resist for 15 seconds. You can check this by scrolling your mouse over defense while explosive fuel is active.

Edited October 10, 2017 by MuskyBoy