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"TLJ Destroyed SW Lore!" Uhm, Ever Heard What Legends EU Did? [SPOILERS]


Ylliarus

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People complain that the Last Jedi is destroying Star Wars lore and creating a mess of the Star Wars universe. Did those people ever hear what Legends EU did? Some of the utterly insane things it did and no one batted an eyelash?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole)

Why build a Death Star? Why build fleets of warships? Why have an army or military at your back when Palpatine can just create a Dark Side storm that rips the fabric of the spacetime continuum and creates hyperspace wormholes capable of ripping apart anything he wanted to! And people complained the Raddus ramming the Supremacy in hyperspace messed up SW lore...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_(Sith_dreadnaught)

Time-travelling in Star Wars! Just mess up your hyperdrive and you can travel into the future. And if sabotaging your hyperdrive is too mundane for you just find the Darkstaff!

 

"A Sith artifact called the Darkstaff was known to have created one of these storms during a critical battle in the New Sith Wars. The storm annihilated the Dark Lord Darth Rivan's Battlelord army and transported him not only through space, but forward in time as well, to the Light and Darkness War, where the Sith Lord met his fate." - Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole)

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Leia_Organa_II

Let's marry a Leia Organa droid and get fried by it during our wedding! Didn't work for Trioculus, a three-eyed mutant that falsely masqueraded as Emperor Palpatine's son. Thank the Force they didn't clone Leia or any other of the heroes... oh wait...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luuke_Skywalker

A Luke Skywalker clone called Luuke Skywalker, who is a dark and insane version of him... and people complain that Luke Skywalker was bitter and cold in TLJ when they were seemingly fine with this in Legends EU?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Callista_Ming

Luke Skywalker falling in love with a dead Jedi that possessed his Apprentice's body after having been stuck in the computers of the Eye of Palpatine for years. The ship is being haunted by Callista who helps Luke and his Padawan fight the ship's malignant AI. Along the way, Callista and Luke fall in love. In the process of destroying the ship, Luke's Padawan sacrifices herself. It's a hard day for Luke. He's got this new girlfriend who doesn't have a body and his new apprentice just got turned into a corpse. A ... hold on, you don't think Luke would ask his ghost girlfriend to ...? No. NO. Oh, come on, Luke. NO. He does it. He lets his ghost girlfriend drive his apprentice's dead body. And she is good to go. She throws her undead parts at Luke repeatedly. She even surprises him by dressing his apprentice's corpse up in lingerie on their second anniversary, but Luke never goes all the way. However, the author does make it clear the two were very physical. Totes normal right? A much better story than TLJ hmm? /sarcasm

 

What am I trying to show? Before anyone starts saying what plotholes TLJ introduced or how it messed up SW lore, please have a look at Legends EU before that. I can make an even longer list of insane things it introduced, this is just a little sample list!

Edited by Ylliarus
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great post

 

yeah I doubt they did. I've read almost every EU book and man... there is some strange stuff in them.

 

Here's the thing every complaint about TLJ breaking lore is total bs even if you just look at the previous trilogies. There is nothing in TLJ that hasn't happened in the other movies.

 

I think the complaint is a lot of people are just angry that their speculations theories didn't come true.

 

 

i'd also like to add from the Clone Wars cartoon there are 2 babies who are able to use the force at less then 1 year old. They can levitate things with out any training. Yet Rey is called OP and a Mary Sue.

Edited by jarjarloves
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great post

 

yeah I doubt they did. I've read almost every EU book and man... there is some strange stuff in them.

 

Here's the thing every complaint about TLJ breaking lore is total bs even if you just look at the previous trilogies. There is nothing in TLJ that hasn't happened in the other movies.

 

I think the complaint is a lot of people are just angry that their speculations theories didn't come true.

 

 

i'd also like to add from the Clone Wars cartoon there are 2 babies who are able to use the force at less then 1 year old. They can levitate things with out any training. Yet Rey is called OP and a Mary Sue.

 

I completely agree, everything you said is just very much true. People just create issues, supposed plotholes and problems just so they can hate on the movie because their personal fanfiction didn't come true.

 

It didn't really mess up the lore, it was just a **** movie.

 

I heavily disagree. There were a few little flaws but for me the movie was great, a solid 8.7/10.

Edited by Ylliarus
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It didn't really mess up the lore, it was just a **** movie.

 

Naaa. I'd go for a meh movie. Not great, not horrible, just an ok movie. I got lucky and caught it on a reduced price so my wife and I got to see it for $8.16. I might go see it again.

Cinematography was on point, acting all around was quite good.

 

And everyone complained "That's totally against Luke's character" well yes and no. I'll give you two examples.

 

1. When on the second Death Star, Luke is being goaded by the Emperor, he force grabs his saber and swings, but is stopped by Vader and we're off into their duel. But my point is when Luke ignites his saber, where is he looking, how is he striking? Look back to that moment, his eyes are on PALPATINE and he's attacking PALPATINE. For all Luke knows he's about to kill an unarmed man in cold blood. Only thing that stopped him was Vader.

 

2. After pummeling Vader down and Palpatine tells him to strike down Vader and take his place, Luke contemplated doing it. He literally teeters on the edge of a razor between light and dark. Yes he comes to his senses and chooses the light side. Now in TLJ what scene does Luke do that as well? Oh wait we all know.

 

Now I agree Luke shouldn't of gone straight for the nuclear option and do what he did off the bat. That should of been a last resort. I will agree that was out of character. But Luke having doubt, or lack thereof in the case of the Emperor and trying to kill someone, completely not out of character.

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I heavily disagree. There were a few little flaws but for me the movie was great, a solid 8.7/10.

 

a solid 8.7? The visuals were great, I'll give you that.

 

 

One X-Wing vs a Dreadnought & it's defences? Poe should be dead.

 

The movie is tripe, the entire subplot with Finn and Rose was pointless, all they accomplished was getting more of their 'rebels' killed wasting time saving those camel things.

 

Super Leia?! When did she learn that?

 

Like milking a fish for green milk? Why was that even in there?!

 

Phasma? She didn't do anything, but die.

 

Snoke? All that hype, now he's a corpse.

 

 

Edited by pazzakey
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a solid 8.7? The visuals were great, I'll give you that.

 

 

One X-Wing vs a Dreadnought & it's defences? Poe should be dead.

 

The movie is tripe, the entire subplot with Finn and Rose was pointless, all they accomplished was getting more of their 'rebels' killed wasting time saving those camel things.

 

Super Leia?! When did she learn that?

 

Like milking a fish for green milk? Why was that even in there?!

 

Phasma? She didn't do anything, but die.

 

Snoke? All that hype, now he's a corpse.

 

 

The visuals were great and for me the story was too.

 

 

- Somehow 1 X-wing against the Death Star wasn't a problem in A New Hope? :p there you have basically the same, a few Xwings against an entire battlestation with thousands of starfighters and turbolasers. So if it wasn't a problem there why should it be a problem here. Also, 1 starfighter brought down the Executor Star Destroyer in RoTJ. Why is it suddenly a problem that Poe's X-Wing survived and did all what he did?

 

- But that's the thing, you don't know that it's pointless. You only know that it's pointless after the movie but during you have no idea. How could they know they'd be captured and betrayed? How could they know Holdo had a plan? They didn't know so at the time the plot wasn't pointless.

 

- Already in RoTJ we learn Leia has the same potential as Luke. In the Bloodline novel we learn that Leia has some strength in the Force that she can instinctively use. Also, that is why Leia was able to do that, she used the Force instinctively because her life was threatened. We have seen dozens of examples where an untrained Force User used the Force instinctively when they were threatened or sufficiently angered.

 

- I will admit it was somewhat silly but it was necessary to show Luke had cut himself off from everything and had returned to the most basic form of living. He did everything himself, just lived his life in the most basic way. And in a sense it was meant as comic relief.

 

- That is one of the flaws of the movie I talked about earlier.

With the entire Phasma novel they set her up to be a great character in TLJ. I heavily enjoyed reading Phasma and then she barely had screentime and supposedly died. I hope that really isn't the case, I pray she survived because otherwise they messed up what they did with her in the Phasma novel.

 

- Snoke was supposedly killed, you know what, I loved it. I loved that all this hyping up, all these millions of people being convinced their Snoke theory was their one true one...

and then he died. I love it. That said, fear not, I bet you that we'll be getting a Snoke novel sometime in 2018 revealing his backstory as well as his rise to power. I even believe there was more to his death than meets the eye. Remember Valkorion?

He made us believe he died as well but surprise, surprise, he survived. My theory is Snoke either is a Sith Spirit now or the Dark Side variant of a Force Ghost or he has used Transfer Essence.

 

 

I am convinced that the group of people that don't like The Last Jedi are simply angry because their expectations and theories didn't come true. They wanted to see their own fanfictions be portrayed on the big screen and when that didn't happen the disappointment clouded their judgement and they came to hate the movie. I didn't go into the movie with expectations, I had my theories but I was completely open to the fact I might not see what I thought I would see or my theories would be proven wrong. It's why I was able to like the movie as much as I did, as I simply saw and enjoyed the movie as it was.

Edited by Ylliarus
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Not anymore.

 

And thank the Force some of it isn't canon anymore. There are things that I wish were canon, like this game, KOTOR 1 and 2, the Bane trilogy and the Plagueis novel. But others things like the ones I listed in the OP... blergh nope, glad that's gone.

Edited by Ylliarus
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I think I speak for everyone when I say we would take all of that op rather then what TLJ gave us.

 

All of what you put down had heart and soul put into it. It was loved by the fans and made by fans. All TLJ was made for was so Disney can get a buck.

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I think I speak for everyone when I say we would take all of that op rather then what TLJ gave us.

 

All of what you put down had heart and soul put into it. It was loved by the fans and made by fans. All TLJ was made for was so Disney can get a buck.

 

well good thing you only speak for yourself.

 

ummm and yeah you couldn't be more wrong about the EU it was made entiarly to make Lucas a buck. He absolutely didn't care about it hence why he constnatly contradicted it and made it non canon himself.

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What was wrong with Luke being forced to fight his mad clone... well, apart from Joruus C'Baoth being a cheating git? ;)

It made sense within the context of the story.

 

Now, granted, I won't say that everything in the old EU was perfect. There were several things that I found ridiculous. There were also things that I really loved.

Wraith Squadron in general, the Thrawn Trilogy, most of the NJO, the Darth Bane trilogy.

 

Legacy of the Force pretty much killed it for me though - far too much character derailment. Didn't buy anything set after that (Crosscurrent, Riptide, and Millennium Falcon were gifts), and the only "New EU" book I've bought was the Thrawn novel.

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I think I speak for everyone when I say we would take all of that op rather then what TLJ gave us.

 

All of what you put down had heart and soul put into it. It was loved by the fans and made by fans. All TLJ was made for was so Disney can get a buck.

 

Speak for yourself, you claim to have a majority based on what? Your belief that you have the majority behind you? Sorry to say but most Star Wars lovers out there haven't even bothered with Legends EU and it's only us handful that have waded into it.

 

And if I had a choice to pick post-RoTJ Legends EU or the new canon I'd gladly pick the new canon. The post-RoTJ Legends EU was a complete mess that created more issues and plotholes for Star Wars than anything else.

 

I disagree, both the new canon as well as the old was made by Star Wars fans who have put their heart and soul into it. Have you read Aftermath? Bloodline? Leia, Princess of Alderaan or Phasma? The new Vader comic series? All of it is written and made by Star Wars fans who love the franchise just as much as we do and poured their heart and soul into it as well.

 

well good thing you only speak for yourself.

 

ummm and yeah you couldn't be more wrong about the EU it was made entiarly to make Lucas a buck. He absolutely didn't care about it hence why he constnatly contradicted it and made it non canon himself.

 

Exactly. But you know the sad thing about this all? Those who claim to love Legends EU so much consider themselves superior to everyone else, like the poster above me. Instead of going into this debate with sensible arguments they first of all dismiss for example me by speaking of me as "a kid" and secondly they fail to bring anything reasonable to the debate so they instead say "these kids are on dope". I am sure the poster above this post excelled at debate club in high school /sarcasm. I am sure that's how the old folks debated and still debate, just ridicule the opponent until one of them gives up. No wonder politics is such a mess as well as our world with the previous generations having been in charge for so long...

 

heh, and you didn't even have to get into the Vong on that list... *shudder*

 

I was disappointed by the loss of the old republic stories, X-Wing books, Jedi Academy, Han Solo and maybe a few others, but the Emperor reborn crap? the Vong? Killiks? it can stay dead.

 

Please don't start about the Vong... that was something that NEVER should have been brought into the Star Wars lore. Coruscant Vongformed and then terraformed back to normal... in the span of what a few years? Seriously that is just one of the insane things about the entire Vong arc. I am so glad Disney threw that out because it was plain rubbish.

 

Am I sad that stories like the Old Republic, the Bane trilogy, the Thrawn trilogy or the Plagueis novel were put into Legends as well? Yes, those could have remained part of the canon in my opinion. But I believe that rest is a good riddance.

Edited by Ylliarus
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Am I sad that stories like the Old Republic, the Bane trilogy, the Thrawn trilogy or the Plagueis novel were put into Legends as well? Yes, those could have remained part of the canon in my opinion. But I believe that rest is a good riddance.

 

In the end, it's best to just burn the past and then they're free to do their own thing and fix some of the mistakes that were made before.

 

The old stories can still be fun to read as a "what if." Kind of like reading a book about "what if the British had won the war of American independence," or "What if Germany won WWII." It's all* still good entertainment.

 

*Ok, not ALL, but you get my point.

Edited by AlienEyeTX
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- Somehow 1 X-wing against the Death Star wasn't a problem in A New Hope? :p there you have basically the same, a few Xwings against an entire battlestation with thousands of starfighters and turbolasers. So if it wasn't a problem there why should it be a problem here. Also, 1 starfighter brought down the Executor Star Destroyer in RoTJ. Why is it suddenly a problem that Poe's X-Wing survived and did all what he did?

Who the hell told you that was no problem? Do have any idea how much **** Lucas got for that oh and the kid for being an Mary Sue and 11 year old kid?

No problem my *** its not the most hated Star Wars movie for now for no reason. Inform yourself.

Edited by adormitul
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In the end, it's best to just burn the past and then they're free to do their own thing and fix some of the mistakes that were made before.

 

The old stories can still be fun to read as a "what if." Kind of like reading a book about "what if the British had won the war of American independence," or "What if Germany won WWII." It's all* still good entertainment.

 

*Ok, not ALL, but you get my point.

 

More than that, the problem with Legends was that due to the actors' age (For the post ROTJ EU) we would have landed near the end of the Dark Nest Trilogy without much possibilities to explain the context (Sure, they didn't explain it in TFA but there isn't 40 novels worth of major storylines between 6 and 7)... and the post-ROTJ EU mostly starts to collapse at this point anyway.

Regarding the pre-Prequels EU, nothing is set in stone but they seem to be taking a broad stroke approach to it. There is a Malachor in the galaxy but it wasn't the high point of the Mandalorian Wars, it seems to have more in common with Ruusan in the Darth Bane stories (Massive Jedi vs. Sith that ended in mass death due to a Sith "weapon") for example.

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More than that, the problem with Legends was that due to the actors' age (For the post ROTJ EU) we would have landed near the end of the Dark Nest Trilogy without much possibilities to explain the context (Sure, they didn't explain it in TFA but there isn't 40 novels worth of major storylines between 6 and 7)... and the post-ROTJ EU mostly starts to collapse at this point anyway.

Regarding the pre-Prequels EU, nothing is set in stone but they seem to be taking a broad stroke approach to it. There is a Malachor in the galaxy but it wasn't the high point of the Mandalorian Wars, it seems to have more in common with Ruusan in the Darth Bane stories (Massive Jedi vs. Sith that ended in mass death due to a Sith "weapon") for example.

 

They could potentially have done animated movies of some of the earlier post-RotJ stuff and had the actors providing their characters' voices (something I'd been hoping for since just before RotS) but yeah, for live-action movies, their age meant it would have to be Dark Nest *shudder* or later :(

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snip

 

All true, but could you please specify in the thread title that it is the post ep 6 EU we are talking about. Not making it clear sounds like all the EU is bad, and the Old Republic EU is the exact opposite of bad.

Edited by Kaedusz
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They could potentially have done animated movies of some of the earlier post-RotJ stuff and had the actors providing their characters' voices (something I'd been hoping for since just before RotS) but yeah, for live-action movies, their age meant it would have to be Dark Nest *shudder* or later :(

 

To be honest, I'm still around the Hand of Thrawn duology and I mostly know the post-ROTJ EU by reputation.

Is it really that bad? I mean, the Vongs, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi?

Because I read the Legacy comics about Cade Skywalker and while it was far from perfect it was entertaining.

But if it is that bad, I rest my case, what would be the point of sticking to Legends if it's only to adapt the worst of it (Post-ROTJ still)?

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All true, but could you please specify in the thread title that it is the post ep 6 EU we are talking about. Not making it clear sounds like all the EU is bad, and the Old Republic EU is the exact opposite of bad.

If one's talking about radical departures from the movies' lore, then Old Republic EU stories certainly fit the bill just as much as the post-RotJ bunch.

 

 

  • Naga Sadow ripping the core out of a sun with the Force.
  • The Muur Talisman instantly transforming any non-Force Sensitive person near it into a Rakghoul.
  • Nihilus being able to drain the life from an entire planet.
  • The Rakata having transporters.
  • Vitiate having a ritual that would drain all life in the galaxy if performed.
  • Revan dying and then having his Dark Side half come back to life while his Light Side half became a Force Ghost.
  • Bane learning to transfer his soul into another person's body.

 

But that's the thing, one person's "they ruined the lore" is another person's "they expanded the lore in a new and interesting way" -- whether you're talking about the Old Republic era EU, the post-RotJ era EU, or the new Disney Canon.

Edited by DarthDymond
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To be honest, I'm still around the Hand of Thrawn duology and I mostly know the post-ROTJ EU by reputation.

Is it really that bad? I mean, the Vongs, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi?

Because I read the Legacy comics about Cade Skywalker and while it was far from perfect it was entertaining.

But if it is that bad, I rest my case, what would be the point of sticking to Legends if it's only to adapt the worst of it (Post-ROTJ still)?

 

The quality of all the old EU stuff largely depends on the vision of the author. Timothy Zahn's vision was a lot closer to the movies than some of the more outlandish things that others added. Personally, I think it's all subjective.

As I said above, I liked most of the NJO.

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