The arena of this deadly struggle is the entirety of the galaxy. There can be no surrender, no quarter will be asked and none will be given. When the smoke settles, only one combatant can remain.

This first round of the Special Edition will be somewhat different than previous battles. To begin with, each contestant will have their forces outlined, and then their supporters can propose opening moves for each side. After a period of debate, I will select the best, most successful strategic options presented for each side and release an update on the Kaggath, detailing the outcomes of the first stages of the conflict.

Another period of debate will ensue, and so forth, with each step of the conflict being assessed along the way until one side is crushed into oblivion by the other. The exact time periods of each stage are somewhat fluid, but remember that each combatant will have an equal amount of time, so if one undertakes a lengthy plan, this will give their opponent even more time to run amok and wreak havoc.

So, to begin we will be pitting two powerful force-users and their respective armies, fleets, and allies against each other.

Darth Vader: The original Sith warrior, Darth Vader strikes fear into the hearts of all who oppose him. Powerful in the Force, and lethal with a lightsaber, he also was one of the finest starfighter pilots of his day and was unafraid to fly into battle with his enemies.

Flagship: Executor-Super Star Destroyer

Navy: Death Squadron (Imperial II-class Star Destroyers, various support craft)

Ground Forces: 501st Stormtrooper Legion

Darth Caedus: A determined and shrewd commander, Jacen Solo fought through the Yuuzhong Vong wars and emerged battle-hardened and determined to unite the galaxy at all costs. He is an experienced saberist and skilled in Battle Meditation, as well as numerous other Force techniques.

Flagship: Anakin Solo, an experimental Star Destroyer outfitted with stealth technology and numerous personal modifications made by Darth Caedus.

Navy: Galactic Alliance Fourth Fleet (a collection of cruisers, Nebula Star Destroyers, and an Endurance-class Fleet carrier.)

Ground Forces: Galactic Alliance troopers and their support craft.

For the purpose of this Kaggath, consider the fleets of Vader and Caedus to be equal in terms of capital ship quantity, and their ground forces to be numerically comparable.

Each army is more than capable of subjugating a planet, although the skill and equipment may vary. Darth Vader's forces will have access to all starfighters seen in use at the Battle of Endor, while Caedus' forces will be outfitted with those in use by the Galactic Alliance at the time of the Battle of Sheddu Maad.

As usual, the technology level in a Kaggath is universal, to the extent that anything not considered advanced or archaic for its time period will be assessed as equal in capabilities to technology from other eras.

The galactic infrastructure is intact at the outset of the conflict, but no prominent organizations will be considered for the duration of the Kaggath. Supplies and weapons may be acquired so long as they are readily available, but any special effort exerted to acquire certain items will come at a cost in time and the risk of enemy intervention. Criminals, smugglers, bounty hunters, and assassins are all present, but none of any exceptional skill are available aside from those specifically associated with their respective combatants, such as the Galactic Alliance Guard or Imperial intelligence agents used by Vader.

Lastly, each combatant will have the assistance of their most prominent apprentice. Darth Vader will be assisted by Galen Marek, while Caedus will have Tahiri Veila. Neither apprentice is permitted to betray their master, as such would be a breach of the Kaggath, punishable with death by smiting.

Okay since Ben Skywalker isn't involved in this, I'll say this right now Galen will slaughter Tahri.

Fact of the matter is Darth Vader will be going into this thing royally pissed off. Jacen became a Sith Lord by killing Mara Jade Skywalker, that alone would really tick Vader off, if we throw in the fact that Jacen also took potshots at Luke, and then the torture of Ben Skywalker, we're going to see Vader enraged to the point we've never seen him before. He's not going to stop until he's killed Caedus.

The fleets are probably fairly evenly matched, and Vader is probably capable of pulling the same meditations that Jacen is. Difference here is that if we want to look at who is more enraged and sporting the power of the darkside, it would be Vader.

This would probably boil down to a fight between Caedus vs Darth Vader + Galen Marek, there is no way I can see Caedus taking them both on at the same time.

Fact of the matter is Darth Vader will be going into this thing royally pissed off. Jacen became a Sith Lord by killing Mara Jade Skywalker, that alone would really tick Vader off, if we throw in the fact that Jacen also took potshots at Luke, and then the torture of Ben Skywalker, we're going to see Vader enraged to the point we've never seen him before. He's not going to stop until he's killed Caedus.

Emotional considerations should probably be left aside, since Jacen is also Anakin Skywalker's grandson. Leia was his daughter, you know. For the purposes of this Kaggath, Caedus and Vader are locked in a struggle to the death. While rage may fuel the Dark Side, it can also lead to atrocious tactical decisions. So, handle with care.

Er...wasn't Caedus able to go toe to toe with Luke for abit before getting creamed? His feats also seem to put him at a level, that is far above Vader and Galen. Vader isn't weak, but his grandson is more powerful then him by a longshot given his abilities and what he has done.

Why do you think jedi forbid attachment and having children from two powerful jedi. Just bred STRONGER force users.

Ofcourse the sith know this, and try to do this, when not trying to stab eachother in the back.

Er...wasn't Caedus able to go toe to toe with Luke for abit before getting creamed? His feats also seem to put him at a level, that is far above Vader and Galen. Vader isn't weak, but his grandson is more powerful then him by a longshot given his abilities and what he has done.

By that logic, Galen is a match for Jacen...

Galen's mother and father were both Jedi...

By that logic, Galen is a match for Jacen...

 

Galen's mother and father were both Jedi...

I think you meant to target Talon with that, I mentioned no parents or anything of relation. But Caedus's feats, seem to put him above both Vader and Galen. Infact Galen was pretty normal, when you take into account actual canon his biggest force feat was slowing a falling Star Destroyer and even that severely drained him and he barely won against Vader.

But anyway in a duel, Caedus just has much more power and ability compared to the other two. I almost wanna say Galen might be a non-factor in this duel, seeing as he won by the skin of his teeth against Vader.

A quick clarification. Tahiri may not be capable of besting Galen in direct lightsaber combat, but she's not inept at fighting. However, her true value to Jacen came as a spy and ambassador capable of doing the Dark Lord's dirty work, freeing him up to focus on other things. She negotiated treaties, alliances, and helped to spy on his enemies more often than she engaged in direct combat.

As for Jacen and Vader's relative personal strengths, they should be close in relative strength. Based purely on lineage, Vader was the Chosen One, with the potential to become the most powerful force user in history. Following his injuries, he was reduced to roughly 80% of his former strength in the Force, and at his full potential could have become twice as powerful as Palpatine (according to Lucas, although it's ambiguous how much of this potential he eventually reached). Now, Luke is Vader's son and theoretically surpassed him. Whether this means his raw potential was greater, or just that he lived up to more of that potential than Vader was able to reach is, again, ambiguous. On the same note, Leia is Luke's twin sister, and while she did not dedicate herself to Jedi training the way he did, may have passed on that lineage to Jacen.

So there is no clear advantage in raw strength, although Jacen clearly has more versatility in the Force than Vader.

I think you meant to target Talon with that, I mentioned no parents or anything of relation. But Caedus's feats, seem to put him above both Vader and Galen. Infact Galen was pretty normal, when you take into account actual canon his biggest force feat was slowing a falling Star Destroyer and even that severely drained him and he barely won against Vader.

 

But anyway in a duel, Caedus just has much more power and ability compared to the other two. I almost wanna say Galen might be a non-factor in this duel, seeing as he won by the skin of his teeth against Vader.

Caedus would be taking on Vader and Galen at the same time, Caedus and Vader would be about an even match, but with Galen thrown into the equation, Jacen would be in serious trouble.

Caedus would be taking on Vader and Galen at the same time, Caedus and Vader would be about an even match, but with Galen thrown into the equation, Jacen would be in serious trouble.

I guess you can debate saber skill...maybe however that is only against Vader, but in using The Force? No, Caedus holds that department above Vader and Galen.

Darth Caedus would decimate Vader.

Lightsaber skills:

Solo had a natural talent for fencing, and was considered one of the best duelists in the Praxeum shortly after constructing his lightsaber.] By the time he was a Sith Lord, he was a deadly duelist, able to engage multiple Jedi at a time and outfight Jedi battlemaster Kyle Katarn. The Dark Lord was also a skilled and frequent user of Force speed, often using it in dangerous situations and combat. During his first duel with Jaina Solo, Darth Caedus called on the Force to exchange lightning-fast blows with his sister. The Jedi judged few but Luke Skywalker to be on his level; ultimately, Jaina Solo, with Skywalker's assistance, was able to defeat him.

Force Prowess:

In addition to standard mind tricks, Solo could use the Force to project a sensation of dread to others, driving them away, and exert a powerful mind trick that would could compel even a talented Jedi. He was also able to fool the perceptions of fellow Jedi and project a false Force presence, even making himself feel like multiple individuals.

 

He also had a natural talent with those Force skills involved in the manipulation of the body. Solo was able to use the Force to dull pain. He was also talented in healing, able to skillfully put others into healing trances, among other healing powers. He could exercise precise control over his own bodily functions, manipulating blood flow and organ performance in order to modify his physical condition and adapt to his environment or wounds. Tapas, the technique of keeping warm within a cold environment, was among these practices of bodily control. Solo could also influence others, putting them to sleep or lending them strength.

 

In addition to his special affinities, Solo had access to a broad slate of Jedi skills after training. By the time Solo was five, he had been trained by Skywalker to erect a Force barrier and defend himself. Using the Force, he could jump great heights, and also slow his fall. He could use the Force to "see" for him, and had the predictive ability common to Jedi, sensing danger before it happened. By 40 ABY, he was able to receive specific brief visions of future hazards. Furthermore, Solo could probe the future, seeing the possible outcomes of various actions at will.

 

As a teenager, he could close himself off from the Force, rendering himself difficult to sense in it and preventing any guidance from the Force reaching him. He later developed this ability further, returning from his five-year sojourn with the capability to cloak himself in the Force almost completely, cutting off even the most powerful other Jedi from detecting his presence and masking his feelings and emotions. He could project false emotions to cover his presence as well, and only partially reveal his feelings to others, controlling what they sensed.

 

At the same time, Solo and Skywalker developed ways to sustain use of the Force at levels beyond the safe capacity of the body to channel for spurts in which overwhelming use of the Force was needed. He could draw the Force through his body at an unsafe rate, resisting the pain and exhaustion of Force overload, but could not prevent it from taking a toll on his body.

 

As a Sith Lord, he demonstrated the ability to strip and restore the use of the Force to Jedi and manifested the rare ability to see shatterpoints—crucial weaknesses in people, situations, and objects.

 

As both Jacen Solo and Darth Caedus, he had more than merely the light side at his command. During his fall to the dark side while wandering on Coruscant, Solo instinctively summoned Force lightning and performed a Force choke as well. When he became a Sith Lord, Solo commanded both those powers. After becoming Darth Caedus, he had access to Sith battle meditation, giving him an ability to anticipate events and understand and manipulate the battlefield.

 

Tadar'Ro taught him the Aing-Tii ability to teleport objects, as well as the power of flow-walking, a technique that let him experience the past and future by projecting himself forward or backward in time but not in space.

 

Aing-Tii fighting-sight allowed him to anticipate events in battle with unusual speed and precision.

 

At some point in his journey, he learned to use the Force to shock an individual's spinal cord and paralyze them briefly, an ability unique to him among the Jedi.

 

Solo learned the memory rub technique from the Fallanassi, which allowed him to suppress others' memories through application of the Force. In addition, Solo was familiar with Fallanassi techniques to project illusions, and could create highly convincing projections using the sect's techniques, including the Fallanassi mirror illusion technique, projecting an illusion the nature of which was determined by the viewer.

Vader and Starkiller don't stand a chance.

Also, I'd like to make the point that at the height of his fleet's power, Caedus used the Megador Super Star Destroyer as his main assault ship.

"Also, I'd like to make the point that at the height of his fleet's power, Caedus used the Megador Super Star Destroyer as his main assault ship."

For the sake of argument, consider Caedus' flagship to be the Anakin Solo since it's more iconic and personal to him. Since at different times both Sith Lords had access to considerable fleet assets from their various allies, we'll assess their fleets as comprising of the following classes of ships:

Caedus: Republic-class Star Destroyers, Nebula-class Star Destroyers, Mon Calamari MC80 Cruisers, an Endurance-class Fleet Carrier, and a Mon Calamari Star Defender.

Vader: Imperial II-class Star Destroyers, Victory II-class Star Destroyers, Strike- and Carrack-class Cruisers, and one other Super Star Destroyer in addition to his flagship.

Now, if Vader feels himself outmatched in terms of personal combat prowess, how would he compensate for this? He's a cunning and relentless enemy.

Also, to help with the considerations of opening strikes for each combatant, consider them to be equidistant from the Coruscant system at the outset of the battle. Both combatants have strong ties to Coruscant, so it will be initially unoccupied.

Both fleets will begin in unidentified systems a short distance out from the galactic core, just out of striking distance of each other.

Darth Caedus would decimate Vader.

Lightsaber skills:

 

 

Force Prowess:

 

 

 

Vader and Starkiller don't stand a chance.

 

Also, I'd like to make the point that at the height of his fleet's power, Caedus used the Megador Super Star Destroyer as his main assault ship.

Just logic out there, Vader is 80%+ of Darth Sidious the most powerful sith lord in history, Darth Cadeus is weaker than him (fact). Sidious believed that Vader even in the suit was strong enough to kill him, but never surpass him in power (he says so in DE but you know this).

If Vader is strong enough to kill Sidious in his mind, then hes strong enough to kill Cadeus especially with help from Galen Marek who beat Vader (albeit by the skin of his teeth, but still beat him). To say that they dont stand a chance is crazy. May i point out that it took the full strength of Sidious' lightning to kill Galen.

Cadeus is powerful dont get me wrong, but if hes weaker than Sidious (and Sidious deems both Vader and Galen a serious threat to him separately i might add, not together). then Galen and Vader could beat him together.

Just logic out there, Vader is 80%+ of Darth Sidious the most powerful sith lord in history, Darth Cadeus is weaker than him (fact). Sidious believed that Vader even in the suit was strong enough to kill him, but never surpass him in power (he says so in DE but you know this).

 

If Vader is strong enough to kill Sidious in his mind, then hes strong enough to kill Cadeus especially with help from Galen Marek who beat Vader (albeit by the skin of his teeth, but still beat him). To say that they dont stand a chance is crazy. May i point out that it took the full strength of Sidious' lightning to kill Galen.

 

Cadeus is powerful dont get me wrong, but if hes weaker than Sidious (and Sidious deems both Vader and Galen a serious threat to him separately i might add, not together). then Galen and Vader could beat him together.

Sidious feared Vader before Post-ROTJ, you know cus Vader wasn't dead, but Vader would be obliterated by Reborn palpatine.

And here's food for fought, Luke beat Reborn Palpatine in a duel, cleanly, yet Caedus managed to engage Grand Master Skywalker and not get instapwned when they came down to a straight duel.

Also, Sidious clearly held back from Galen because he didn't want to kill Starkiller, he wanted to replace Vader with him.

Caedus defeated Battlemaster Katarn, held his own against GM Skywalker AND he was still rather easily battling back against his twin sister who'd be trained by Leia, Katarn, Skywalker and Boba Fett, whilst missing an arm and having literally lost all function in his leg.

Caedus is better than Vader by a mile, in every way he is better than Vader.

He can predict everything Vader does, he can see the future and the past very clearly, he can mess with his mind, cripple him, use Shatterpoint and so much more I won't bother to list it all.

Caedus could very well be the second most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

AND on top of that, Grand Master Luke actually admits once that he thinks Caedus could become almost as powerful as he is.

Sidious feared Vader before Post-ROTJ, you know cus Vader wasn't dead, but Vader would be obliterated by Reborn palpatine.

 

And here's food for fought, Luke beat Reborn Palpatine in a duel, cleanly, yet Caedus managed to engage Grand Master Skywalker and not get instapwned when they came down to a straight duel.

 

Also, Sidious clearly held back from Galen because he didn't want to kill Starkiller, he wanted to replace Vader with him.

 

Caedus defeated Battlemaster Katarn, held his own against GM Skywalker AND he was still rather easily battling back against his twin sister who'd be trained by Leia, Katarn, Skywalker and Boba Fett, whilst missing an arm and having literally lost all function in his leg.

 

Caedus is better than Vader by a mile, in every way he is better than Vader.

 

He can predict everything Vader does, he can see the future and the past very clearly, he can mess with his mind, cripple him, use Shatterpoint and so much more I won't bother to list it all.

 

Caedus could very well be the second most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

AND on top of that, Grand Master Luke actually admits once that he thinks Caedus could become almost as powerful as he is.

Interesting, although i dont think Luke was at the peak of his power when he fought Cadeus so that duel is still a good but not absolute measuring stick. Although do you consider Vader's 80%+ of Sidious GCW pd or DE pd? This gives me a good indicator to your opinion on this as my knowledge of Cadeus i admit is a bit shaky.

Interesting, although i dont think Luke was at the peak of his power when he fought Cadeus so that duel is still a good but not absolute measuring stick. Although do you consider Vader's 80%+ of Sidious GCW pd or DE pd? This gives me a good indicator to your opinion on this as my knowledge of Cadeus i admit is a bit shaky.

Erm.... the rise of Caedus happened just before the Abeloth series, he was as Grand Master as it got.

Vader's 80% comes from Lucas, he only refers to the movies, so it can't be Dark Empire.

Just to give an example, here is how much I think Vader and Starkiller would get their arses handed to them in a 2 vs 1 against Caedus:

Just to give an example, here is how much I think Vader and Starkiller would get their arses handed to them in a 2 vs 1 against Caedus:

 

I somewhat fail to grasp the point of that clip since it turned to be about even sorta when it went to 1v1 but i get it. Personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone other than Luke Skywalker himself would be capable of beating Darth Vader and Starkiller together.

I guess I could see how Cadeus' force speed would have an effect against Vader's Djem So since fast attacks from say an Ataru or Juyo stance were his biggest weakness. Not quite sure about starkiller though, who do you consider stronger Pre-DE Sidious or Cadeus? Cause if its Cadeus then I understand where your coming from.

I somewhat fail to grasp the point of that clip since it turned to be about even sorta when it went to 1v1 but i get it. Personally, I find it hard to believe that anyone other than Luke Skywalker himself would be capable of beating Darth Vader and Starkiller together.

 

I guess I could see how Cadeus' force speed would have an effect against Vader's Djem So since fast attacks from say an Ataru or Juyo stance were his biggest weakness. Not quite sure about starkiller though, who do you consider stronger Pre-DE Sidious or Cadeus? Cause if its Cadeus then I understand where your coming from.

You need to stop using Sidious and Luke as some kind of measuring stick, because even though they are the most powerful, they aren't the be all and end all of every ability and technique, if you compare what kind of powers that Caedus has and compare it to Starkiller and Vader, then it's rather obvious who'd win, he could probably just completely control and Dun Moch Starkiller into attacking his own master, waiting for one of them to die and then easily finishing the other, it's well within his influence based abilities.

You need to stop using Sidious and Luke as some kind of measuring stick, because even though they are the most powerful, they aren't the be all and end all of every ability and technique, if you compare what kind of powers that Caedus has and compare it to Starkiller and Vader, then it's rather obvious who'd win, he could probably just completely control and Dun Moch Starkiller into attacking his own master, waiting for one of them to die and then easily finishing the other, it's well within his influence based abilities.

Except the Apprentice turning on master scenario has been excluded from consideration in the OP.

Except the Apprentice turning on master scenario has been excluded from consideration in the OP.

I never said it was of his own free will, I am saying he can absolutely trick and warp his mind into either doing the insane or full on making him see somebody else.

I never said it was of his own free will, I am saying he can absolutely trick and warp his mind into either doing the insane or full on making him see somebody else.

Considering the number of times Jacen's used this trick to avoid dieing, odds are both Galen and Vader would know all about that little trick.

Considering the number of times Jacen's used this trick to avoid dieing, odds are both Galen and Vader would know all about that little trick.

They've never even heard of him before or met him in combat.