Jump to content

Who was Justified in the Star Wars Movies?


Empirarte

Recommended Posts

This question has been going through my brain for a while now, so I'm curious what other people think.

 

In the Original Trilogy, the Rebel Alliance who are the "good guys" are sabotaging the Empire's efforts and trying to cause destruction from the inside. Using violence, the Rebel Alliance finally manages to gain independence from the Empire and become the New Republic. They based their entire war on principles of government and used violence to support their fight.

 

Now rewind twenty or thirty years ago, to Episode II. Several systems are upset about how things are being run in the government and so want to peacefully leave the Republic. However, they meet stern resistance and when they try to execute some spies who are illegally infiltrating and killing some civilians (Obi Wan, Anakin, and Padmé), the Jedi Order begins a massive attack in order to free them. After the CIS tried to put down this invasion, a full-scale Republic invasion of Geonosis begins which leads to the Clone Wars, justified only by retrieving three important people.

 

Frankly, I think the CIS were much more justified than the Rebel Alliance was. It seems that who's good and who is bad is based upon whether or not you believe in Jedi or Sith philosophy. This also forms a strong parallel to the American Revolution and Civil War now that I think about it, however the North had more reason to fight than the Republic did, namely because the Republic is very corrupt at this point.

 

So, post your thoughts and comments about who was morally justified in these wars, and don't just say someone was good or bad because George Lucas wanted it that way. Thanks for non-troll responses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Republic was justified because the Trade Federation blockaded Naboo in episode 1, and then the Seperatists sent assassins after padme in attack of the clones just because of nute gunray's grudge against her. The seperatists were just made to cause the republic to go to war since Dooku was Palpatine's apprentace, Dooku knew the plan but Palpatine betrayed him since Anakin was more powerful.

 

The Rebel Alliance was justified because they fought for freedom of the galaxy because the galactic empire was forcing people to side with them, they enslaved a large amount of wookiees and didn't care about their people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see your point, but it seems to me that you're saying the Republic was attacking the CIS chiefly because of the Trade Federation's involvement, because they are causing most of if not all the problems in Episodes I and II.

 

As for the Sith involvement, there is a lot of anger directed at the Sith due to the early wars and all, but it just seems to be a type of philosophy, though far from perfect, that the Jedi have been rivals with and constantly trying to suppress. But I do see what you mean, with what the Sith have been doing consistently, it's hard to tolerate them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

As for the Sith involvement, there is a lot of anger directed at the Sith due to the early wars and all, but it just seems to be a type of philosophy, though far from perfect, that the Jedi have been rivals with and constantly trying to suppress. But I do see what you mean, with what the Sith have been doing consistently, it's hard to tolerate them.

 

Everything in the prequel trilogy is manipulated by the Sith...and you left mention of their involvement out completely.

Edited by JediArchives
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even in the movie you get the most important piece of information:

 

Truth is a matter of perspective.

 

So, both parties are justified :)

 

The Republic was wrong to answer with force when planets/systems wished to leave the Republic, but have an excuse since Sith were involved and the Sith are their enemy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks differently than how the films portray the struggle. I do see that the Empire has committed great crimes, but nothing that the Republic hadn't done before even as we see in the Old Republic, both sides are flawed in their own ways.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say the prequals the republic was justified, mostly because they are reacting to the current events (the CIS blockading planets and breaking peace treaties). Once the republic became an empire there reactions are justified because they are trying t maintain control of their empire, while a bunch of no good rebels try and cause chaos amongst the peace.

 

The clone trooper however, are the only ones justified in the entire thing. They had their orders, and are doing what any military group would do if their government asked them too.

That and the contractors of the empire, which is the old "Clerks" debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

History is written by the winners. Doesn't matter which side is 'good' or 'bad' it'll be written so it looks like the winners were the liberators or fighters of justice or whatever, the bad guys will look like the evil-doers trying to ruin the good guys perfect vision of the future.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The Republic was wrong to answer with force when planets/systems wished to leave the Republic,

 

Did you watch Episode 2? I guess the CIS hiring a Bounty Hunter to assassinate a Republic Senator is not justification...

 

I also guess the Republic should have allowed the CIS to continue producing their illegal droid army, and allowed them to attack the Republic and overwhelm the Jedi. (As Obi-Wan overheard their plans to invade the Republic and reported this to the Jedi Council/Senate)

 

And the Jedi didn't invade Geonosis to attack the CIS...they did it to save Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan, who were to be executed in a barbaric way.

 

Seriously, you wanted to have a discussion about the movies...but you guys are choosing to ignore certain factors just so you can make the CIS look good...which you really can't. Corrupt corporations and greedy individuals made up the Separatist Council...how do you think they're better than what the Republic was at that time?

Edited by JediArchives
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The CIS wanted to secede. They weren't going to be the aggressors; that wasn't their nature. Remember, the Trade Federation had to be pushed into invading Naboo, by Palpatine. The CIS had to be pushed into banding together to secede, by Dooku, who was also Palpatine's 'apprentice'.

 

In actual fact, the Republic attacked the Separatists *first*. Palpatine manipulated the Senate into declaring war on the Separatists.

 

The entire war was designed, by Palpatine, to have the following goals: To increase the power of the Chancellor's Office so that Palpatine could eventually become Emperor in a legal fashion; to eliminate Jedi by dispersing them, making them vulnerable as individuals, and killing them directly or indirectly; to eliminate the Jedi Order as a credible political force; to discredit the Jedi Order so that they could not form a nucleus of resistance to Palpatine's Empire.

 

The entire *war* was the Phantom Menace; the real threat came from within, at the top, with Palpatine's manipulations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The CIS wanted to secede. They weren't going to be the aggressors.

 

 

Except for the part where they were planning on invading the Republic and overwhelming the Jedi with their infinite (and illegal) droid army...which Dooku says straight up to the Separatist Council (I'm amazed how people love to forget this part)

 

I'm not denying that all this came about because of Palpatine and Dooku. The CIS likely would not have even reached the point of seccession WITHOUT them.

Edited by JediArchives
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say the prequals the republic was justified, mostly because they are reacting to the current events (the CIS blockading planets and breaking peace treaties). Once the republic became an empire there reactions are justified because they are trying t maintain control of their empire, while a bunch of no good rebels try and cause chaos amongst the peace.

 

The clone trooper however, are the only ones justified in the entire thing. They had their orders, and are doing what any military group would do if their government asked them too.

That and the contractors of the empire, which is the old "Clerks" debate.

 

What? So your saying that any regular military(not being clones, hence they have more then free will) would just go along with whatever orders they are given? Theres a difference between following an order and following an unlawful order.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If human history is any measure, using violence and waging war for freedom is wholly justified.

 

While it can be used for the wrong ends.... It can be used for for what are considered right ones, the American revolution, allies in world war two.

 

You fight fire with fire, realistic solutions for a all two gritty real world. If new holy prophet suddenly appeared and got Hitler to step down through pacifism then all means that would be great, but yea, that didn't happen. Shermans in massive numbers however did work (in addition to many other toys and massive numbers).

 

Empire in star wars world was basically the oppressive dictatorship government who found it acceptable to do orbital bombardments with star disroyers on populated worlds, and in case of the death star destroying them to put down rebellion. The deathstar while large is a military installation, by all current and future conducts of proper war blowing it up is perfectly a acceptable target. Blowing up a planet with a large civilian population however is genocide and destruction on a level that even real world people have not done yet (makes hitler look like a nice guy), that we don't even recognize it as horrific as it is because it is too large of a destruction to comprehend, so just basically try to imagine instead of a fictional planet it was earth, and it was not evacuated and everyone and everything was on it, yea that's not nice.

 

As to the trade federation, the jedi came as diplomats and did not become hostile until they themselves were targeted. Though the trade federation is at fault for being very stupid unless under mind control following a sinister person in a robe who looked like death asking them to put everything on the line for little gain. Red box prequal review : P

 

Why didn't the trade federation keep holorecordings and show those to the republic when they were arrested "It wasn't our fault, it was this guy pulling the strings, hey hey kind of looks like senator palpatine with a robe"

Edited by patoman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you watch Episode 2? I guess the CIS hiring a Bounty Hunter to assassinate a Republic Senator is not justification...

 

I also guess the Republic should have allowed the CIS to continue producing their illegal droid army, and allowed them to attack the Republic and overwhelm the Jedi. (As Obi-Wan overheard their plans to invade the Republic and reported this to the Jedi Council/Senate)

 

And the Jedi didn't invade Geonosis to attack the CIS...they did it to save Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan, who were to be executed in a barbaric way.

 

Seriously, you wanted to have a discussion about the movies...but you guys are choosing to ignore certain factors just so you can make the CIS look good...which you really can't. Corrupt corporations and greedy individuals made up the Separatist Council...how do you think they're better than what the Republic was at that time?

 

 

I'm not that fond of the CIS, but I don't like how everyone assumes the Jedi side is always right. So from what I can tell, the Trade Federation and Count Dooku have been causing most of the trouble in terms of the assassination attempts. I don't think three spies, despite their importance, should not be the cause of a galaxy wide war which will lead to the death of billions of lives. If the CIS attacked first, then of course they should be able to fight back but they had little confirmation of any invasion taking place and used no diplomatic weight to tell them to stop making such large armies, they just charged in.

 

The droid army wasn't really illegal if the CIS was actually a Confederation of Independent Systems; they should be able to have their own military like the Republic had on a smaller scale to deal with local crises and pirates.

 

What I am basically trying to say is that the Republic should have tried more peaceful tactics before invading Geonosis and launching such a destructive war.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The difference between the clone wars and Rebellion era, was that the CIS were mostly a bunch of mega corporations that were seeking to empower themselves over the appointed elected officials to improve their profit, at their core they were avoiding taxation not fighting for free ideals against dictatorial law. In fact the corruption within the senate was mostly brought upon by the trade federation, techno union and banking clans, as they bought off elective seats in hopes to ultimately gain control over the senate. Palpatine learned of this and used it as his main foundation to his own political rise, threatening many elected officials to support his own agendas, and ultimately swaying them away from the CIS. WHen the trade federation and techno union realized they had paid and installed political senators that sought to turn against them they were contacted by the sith, and of course you all know what happens next. they target a planet of the senator who is mostly spear heading the taxation laws, hope that the sith can contain the issue which they don't and ultimately decided to start a war that will 100s of billions of lives over the loss of profit and power in the galaxy.

 

The Rebellion was started by former senators, freedom fighters, and jedi, hoping to topple a government which was alienating aliens to slave labor, empowering the Human race, and using military might to disband freedom and democracy, the ability to vote against laws and amendments that took away the freedom of people.

 

The Clone Wars and CIS was fought over money and politics, a comparison to what many people label the fromer current iraq war

 

The rebellion and Rebel alliance war was fought over freedom and racial oppression, hoping to overthrow the malicious dictator that was killing and blowing up planets just to show the galaxy their strength, as tarkin said Fear was the policy.

Edited by thecordler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Republic was justified in the prequel trilogy. The rebels were Justified in the original trilogy. As count Dooku said, they would hold the republic hostage with their massive droid army, to get whatever they wanted. It doesn't matter that the sith was behind it, it matters that the CIS went behind it for their own greed. Sidious knew this was a great possibility and used it for HIS own benefit.

There was a secret arms race between the CIS and the republic, but the republic did not know either was happening (those systems that were not part of the CIS). The empire being evil in the OT is obvious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always seen the Jedi as the true bad guys. Wanting us to push down our emotions all the time, basically turn us into droids with flesh.

 

The Sith is where it's at, embrace your emotions, they are what makes you human (or humanoid sentient species), what makes us strong in times of struggle. Mothers with children in danger can do extraordinary things because of emotion, like lift a car. If those mothers were Jedi their children would die. Actually they wouldn't even have been born cause Jedi aren't supposed to have children.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not only that but by destroying the deathstar they murdered thousends of inocent workers.... Yeah Empire has a assH*le as a leader but why kill the many when all u gatta do is kill 1 guy...

 

And its not like palpatine is ever going to be strong enough to zap the life out of planets...

The Jedi are mass murderers of innocent lives...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, it is alright to transition into a Jedi vs. Sith debate because they are so intertwined with the historical events and struggles that occurred between the Republic/Rebellion and the Empire/CIS. However, this shouldn't consume the whole debate and become the only part of the discussion.

 

 

My philosophical tendencies have agreed with the Jedi and Stoicism in some respects: suppressing negative emotions and working for the common good. However, their hypocritical and apathetic responses to the Republic and the way everyone assumes they're perfect is what turns me against them. On the side, because Lucas is a Buddhist, I think that's influenced his creation of the Jedi as who they are as they share many principles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

why is it that everyone says the Jedi are against emotion, they fully understand it and accept it. THEY TEACH THAT A JEDI MUST OVERCOME HIS EMOTION! there is no emotion there is peace, if one can overcome and clear their judgement of emotion they can bring peace to themselves and resolve any conflict about their actions.

 

to quote yoda "do not mourn the loss of life, we must rejoice in their becoming one with the force." The idea of this statement is clear, do not let the despair of loss overtake you, find peace and joy in the fact that people die and become apart of the infinite energy surrounding and flowing through us.

 

Another Yoda "Pain. Suffering. Death, I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain" notice the word I FEEL.

 

another Yoda "You will know… when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." the idea is to think with a clear mind, any emotional disposition always sway your decisions.

 

Finally

 

To quote obi-wan "Anakin you betrayed the jedi order, you were my brother, I LOVED YOU" he was then able to relinquish his bond with anakin to leave him to suffer in agony and burn to death, while simultaneously leaving him with the chance to survive.

 

Another Obi-wan quote "He is like my brother...I cannot do it" clearly if the jedi ignored emotion yoda would have said something prolific, however Obi-wan was able to catch himself have his moment and clear his head and do what is right.

 

The jedi have never been about not experiencing emotion, they are about overcoming the attachments and devotions that EMOTIONS themselves bring, they teach not to LET emotions dictate your actions as in the STAR WARS universe there is a darkside that influences the mind of force users empowering their emotions to incredibly dictatorial effects that rule an individual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always seen the Jedi as the true bad guys. Wanting us to push down our emotions all the time, basically turn us into droids with flesh.

 

Twaddle.

They don't want "us" to suppress our emotions, they teach themselves to control their own emotions.

 

Surrendering to their emotions is a giant leap to the Dark Side.

 

The Sith is where it's at, embrace your emotions, they are what makes you human (or humanoid sentient species), what makes us strong in times of struggle.

 

Except you're forgetting one important thing.

The Dark Side of The Force.

No amount of good intention (and the road to hell is paved with them) does anything against its corruption. It will twist and destroy a good person, turning them into a monster whose only interest in themselves and their own success. Just like the Sith.

 

Mothers with children in danger can do extraordinary things because of emotion, like lift a car.

 

And inspire legendary comic book characters like the Incredible Hulk...

 

If those mothers were Jedi their children would die.

 

This is by far, the single most ridiculous thing I've read in the history of this site. Ever.

 

Actually they wouldn't even have been born cause Jedi aren't supposed to have children.

 

They can have children, and many have had children.

I'm not talking about those who have children in secret, post Ruusan Reformations, but those who are given permission.

Pre-Ruusan Reformations many Jedi had children and even got married, even to other Jedi.

 

Learn the lore before posting in ignorance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...