Prior to 1.6.2, by raid group used to do this fight by keeping Toth in the berzerk phase and DPSing him down. Zorn would just stand still throwing rocks. Whoever had the yellow circle would get away from Toth until it turned purple 10 seconds later. It was very easy. Since 1.6.2 came out, we've been trying our usual strategy, but Zorn doesn't stand still. He's running around and untauntable. Also the yellow circles don't stay yellow very long. They occasionally immediately turn purple so if it falls on a melee DPS or tanks, it will take Toth out of bezerk. I didn't notice anything in the patch notes that the mechanics of the fight were changed. Has anyone else who uses this strategy on the fight come across similar changes? Have you been able to work around them or did you have to do the fight the "normal" way?

We saw this in HM the other day... Not sure why to be honest. Took 3 tries before it didnt glitch.

the problem is you're exploiting a bug in the mechanics and that will cause other bugs quite often. i've done it before in HM and it's a nice way to speed up the fight, but doing it in NiM is asking for trouble, because I said, when you purposely bug something out, you're just begging for a secondary bug to occur

we currently use this strat in NiM because our dps is to high and it gives us something to do.

that beings said we did it on Tuesday with no problems other than the normal things going on.

we currently use this strat in NiM because our dps is to high and it gives us something to do.

that beings said we did it on Tuesday with no problems other than the normal things going on.

 

newsflash everyones dps on this fight is too high...teach your dps to control themselves so you don't have to exploit to kill.

newsflash everyones dps on this fight is too high...teach your dps to control themselves so you don't have to exploit to kill.

 

No need to be rude because you dislike the way we choose to farm content when we made the progression kill we did it that way and can still do it that way but its easier this way and we don't really have anyways for people to make mistakes except with medpacks so it's a nice warm up fight to get ready for tanks and kephess.

 

I am sorry you don't like the way people chose to do content but the OP was asking for a bug report and I was simply here to say we did it after the patch with no bugs.

 

Thanks

Final - Shot First [GM] - The Shadowlands

No need to be rude because you dislike the way we choose to farm content when we made the progression kill we did it that way and can still do it that way but its easier this way and we don't really have anyways for people to make mistakes except with medpacks so it's a nice warm up fight to get ready for tanks and kephess.

 

I am sorry you don't like the way people chose to do content but the OP was asking for a bug report and I was simply here to say we did it after the patch with no bugs.

 

Thanks

Final - Shot First [GM] - The Shadowlands

 

You misunderstood my contempt was not for your exploit killing it was for the fact that this far into the game your dps still do not know how to control themselves enough to do a fight properly.

You misunderstood my contempt was not for your exploit killing it was for the fact that this far into the game your dps still do not know how to control themselves enough to do a fight properly.

 

not really sure why we are still arguing or why im responding to you because it seems to me that you just CAN"T read

when we cleared this fight on Nightmare and for the next few kills we did it with all the swaps and mechanics. trust me when i tell you my dps have NO problem holding back.

 

but as i said before this is still the fastest easiest way to kill the boss.

Prior to 1.6.2, by raid group used to do this fight by keeping Toth in the berzerk phase and DPSing him down. Zorn would just stand still throwing rocks. Whoever had the yellow circle would get away from Toth until it turned purple 10 seconds later. It was very easy. Since 1.6.2 came out, we've been trying our usual strategy, but Zorn doesn't stand still. He's running around and untauntable. Also the yellow circles don't stay yellow very long. They occasionally immediately turn purple so if it falls on a melee DPS or tanks, it will take Toth out of bezerk. I didn't notice anything in the patch notes that the mechanics of the fight were changed. Has anyone else who uses this strategy on the fight come across similar changes? Have you been able to work around them or did you have to do the fight the "normal" way?

 

Suck it up and do the fight as intended or just be okay with it bugging out.

 

You misunderstood my contempt was not for your exploit killing it was for the fact that this far into the game your dps still do not know how to control themselves enough to do a fight properly.

 

I have to disagree with Dominion here, you are exploiting a mechanic in the game and you should feel bad. As with the mindset that "this is still the fastest easiest way to kill the boss." that's fine if you want to just set the instance on easy mode instead of keeping your raiders up to speed with the little challenge that the mechanic offers but please don't condone this type of behavior for other people. Really, why are you even doing Nightmare Mode if you're just going to pass the mechanics? The gear? That's just dishonorable. You should probably ask yourself this: "If nightmare mode did not have any gear drops, would I still run it?" If the answer is no then you probably shouldn't be in a nightmare mode operation.

If tanks does the boss swap correctly DPS don't have to hold back.

If tanks does the boss swap correctly DPS don't have to hold back.

 

They're saying that if your dps are too fast you'll burn down the bosses causing Toth to jump to Zorn before the Toth tank loses his fearful debuff. This makes it to where both tanks have fearful and will kill themselves if they swap. They weren't talking about threat issues

They're saying that if your dps are too fast you'll burn down the bosses causing Toth to jump to Zorn before the Toth tank loses his fearful debuff. This makes it to where both tanks have fearful and will kill themselves if they swap. They weren't talking about threat issues

 

Just for the sake of proving a point I made our dps stop at 72%, 52%, 32% and 12% and made our dps wait until there was only 4-5 sec or fearfull left before forcing a swap, as a result we hit enrage with around 4% left on each boss and almost wiped.

 

This tells me that when they calculated HP of Zorn and Toth for NiM and the enrage timer they forgot to calculate in the fact that fearfull last for 1 minute per swap. They should either reduce fearfull to 50 sec for Nim or adjust so that fearfull debuff is wiped and re-applied to anyone in range whenever a swap takes place.

Just for the sake of proving a point I made our dps stop at 72%, 52%, 32% and 12% and made our dps wait until there was only 4-5 sec or fearfull left before forcing a swap, as a result we hit enrage with around 4% left on each boss and almost wiped.

 

This tells me that when they calculated HP of Zorn and Toth for NiM and the enrage timer they forgot to calculate in the fact that fearfull last for 1 minute per swap. They should either reduce fearfull to 50 sec for Nim or adjust so that fearfull debuff is wiped and re-applied to anyone in range whenever a swap takes place.

 

You can avoid the some of the jumps by pushing dps during the 'berserk' phases. What we find is that by taking one of the boss past 10%, we can skip a jump. It doesn't work 100% of the time though. Also, while you take double damage from Zorn with fearful, a tank can survive that for a few seconds provided they don't attack Zorn.

Just for the sake of proving a point I made our dps stop at 72%, 52%, 32% and 12% and made our dps wait until there was only 4-5 sec or fearfull left before forcing a swap, as a result we hit enrage with around 4% left on each boss and almost wiped.

 

This tells me that when they calculated HP of Zorn and Toth for NiM and the enrage timer they forgot to calculate in the fact that fearfull last for 1 minute per swap. They should either reduce fearfull to 50 sec for Nim or adjust so that fearfull debuff is wiped and re-applied to anyone in range whenever a swap takes place.

 

Tanks don't need to attacks to hold threat at that point, so they can continue to swap even while still having fearful.

You can avoid the some of the jumps by pushing dps during the 'berserk' phases. What we find is that by taking one of the boss past 10%, we can skip a jump. It doesn't work 100% of the time though. Also, while you take double damage from Zorn with fearful, a tank can survive that for a few seconds provided they don't attack Zorn.

Tanks don't need to attacks to hold threat at that point, so they can continue to swap even while still having fearful.

 

Although both methods are a work around it does not change the fact that their timing mehcanics of debuffs and swaps in the fight are wrong and someone designing the Nim instance was simply bad at math.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Loki_

They're saying that if your dps are too fast you'll burn down the bosses causing Toth to jump to Zorn before the Toth tank loses his fearful debuff. This makes it to where both tanks have fearful and will kill themselves if they swap. They weren't talking about threat issues

 

Its okay if both tanks have fearful, they just can't attack the boss. Doesn't mean they can't taunt, at that point in the fight they will have enough threat build up that they can just sit there and wait for the debuff to come off. This has just been part of the fight since HM. Expoiting is the wrong thing to do and doesn't warrent or should be even considered a kill.

Its okay if both tanks have fearful, they just can't attack the boss. Doesn't mean they can't taunt, at that point in the fight they will have enough threat build up that they can just sit there and wait for the debuff to come off. This has just been part of the fight since HM. Expoiting is the wrong thing to do and doesn't warrent or should be even considered a kill.

 

I would completely disagree with swapping because in 16m NiM EC the tank will be completely crushed by Zorn if he has fearful (that scream, and even his normal attacks, hit very, very hard). When we first killed Toth and Zorn NiM we did so by waiting on the swaps then burning the **** out of toth after the last swap. In all the runs we've been doing we have had Zorn's linked enrage from Toth's death go off every time but we haven't seen a hard enrage since our first down.

I would completely disagree with swapping because in 16m NiM EC the tank will be completely crushed by Zorn if he has fearful (that scream, and even his normal attacks, hit very, very hard). When we first killed Toth and Zorn NiM we did so by waiting on the swaps then burning the **** out of toth after the last swap. In all the runs we've been doing we have had Zorn's linked enrage from Toth's death go off every time but we haven't seen a hard enrage since our first down.

 

I absolutely believe that tanking with fearful in 16m NiM would be a problem. It's pretty annoying in 8m, though not deadly if you're careful. We run two shadow tanks, so Resilience is usually available to deal with this situation when it arises. I don't think we've ever killed T&Z without both tanks having fearful throughout the majority of the fight (when I swap over to Zorn, I usually have 10-12 seconds on the debuff).

 

With that said, our DPS do have to hold back at several points, not due to fearful, but due to jump mechanics. Specifically, if you push Toth through a HP trigger during Sonic Paralysis, he's going to jump pretty much right on the end of the cast (we've even seen him bug out so he jumps *during* Sonic Paralysis). This is super annoying since the Zorn tank is low and potentially still stunned (I'm not sure why, but my cotank never clicks off the debuff), and so the tank swap and timing gets screwed up immediately thereafter.

 

This isn't a terribly hard boss, there's no need to trivialize it even further. Do the fight correctly. Practice DPS and tank coordination so you're good and warmed up for when you hit the tanks.

Had the same issue with DPS being too high on T/Z Nim. Pushed phases so quickly that tanks still had fearful for 10-15sec after the tank swap. Caused more wipes just waiting for fearful to wear off. Decided to keep Toth in berserk phase for entire fight. We now do the berserk strategy twice a week with two different groups. Have downed T/Z Nim this way since release.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=555x5wP-ab8

Edited January 18, 2013 by Ty_walla
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Had the same issue with DPS being too high on T/Z Nim. Pushed phases so quickly that tanks still had fearful for 10-15sec after the tank swap. Caused more wipes just waiting for fearful to wear off. Decided to keep Toth in berserk phase for entire fight. We now do the berserk strategy twice a week with two different groups. Have downed T/Z Nim this way since release.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=555x5wP-ab8

 

Tell your powertech tank to work on his resource management a bit, from what I see in this movie he is constantly overheated. Using unload when tanking boss right in front of you is just a waste of heat since this ability can be interrupted. Also from what I see he is not keeping flameburst debuff constantly on the boss which makes him take more damage.

Here is the same guild killing him on day one of release. Tell me which makes more sense to try.

 

 

As to the exploit, it defiantly is not. It's ignoring mechanics which is done all the time. You just have to live with the consequences should you chose to ignore them. In this case you have to burn through Toth taking 50% less damage while he is in berserk.

 

Now as for telling other how to play until you post a video of you and your lackies taking down "progression content" keep it to yourself.

This fight is generally buggy overall (and if not buggy just not very well designed) and it has been since it came out. I have had times where Zorn applies fearful but no jump happens. If the tanks are communicating well, they will switch regardless. As for too fast DPS it is very simple for the tank to call out how much time is left on fearful and have the DPS ease up for a while (thus allowing them to regain resources and do a short term burst afterwards to even it out). Even if the switch happens with cca 5s left on fearful it will wear off by the time the tanks are positioned. Never saw an enrage on 8 man and do not run 16 man I cannot comment on that (I don't trust that many people to do well).

 

Complaining that bugging a fight out causes bugs to appear is pointless.

Here is the same guild killing him on day one of release. Tell me which makes more sense to try.

 

 

As to the exploit, it defiantly is not. It's ignoring mechanics which is done all the time. You just have to live with the consequences should you chose to ignore them. In this case you have to burn through Toth taking 50% less damage while he is in berserk.

 

Now as for telling other how to play until you post a video of you and your lackies taking down "progression content" keep it to yourself.

 

Warstalker title, if you notice in the video we get the 1 hour remaining during the fight. We completed the instance in just over an hour and didn't exploit toth and zorn ! Also we had one wipe as well on tanks.

 

With that said, our DPS do have to hold back at several points, not due to fearful, but due to jump mechanics. Specifically, if you push Toth through a HP trigger during Sonic Paralysis, he's going to jump pretty much right on the end of the cast (we've even seen him bug out so he jumps *during* Sonic Paralysis). This is super annoying since the Zorn tank is low and potentially still stunned (I'm not sure why, but my cotank never clicks off the debuff), and so the tank swap and timing gets screwed up immediately thereafter.

 

 

If you run with 2 shadows, neither of the two tanks should be stunned. You should use your CC breaker on the first one, and time force shroud to prevent the second stun. Tanking with fearful shouldnt be to hard on your healers, unless people are positioning themselves to be in range of the avoidable aoes. If and when a healer is having hard times healing this fight, it is usually the case of bad positioning, or poor/slow tank swaps... if things are done right, this is one of the easiest fights to heal in the game.

If tanks does the boss swap correctly DPS don't have to hold back.

 

 

I will keep that in mind when I have 30s left on my fearful.