Can someone else confirm this?

It doesn't, I attempted it and only one would proc at a time, they shared cooldown as well.

This is more then likely a dumb question but I've been reading the forums and cant seem to find a definitive answer. If we want to run two Proc relics like def proc and abs proc does one of them have to be a PvP one? or can they both be arkanian?

thanks ahead of time and sorry again if its a dumb question

So with these numbers what is the desired % for defense, shield and absorb?

Just easier to view

Currently high defense and I am very spikey

1300 defense roughly 25%

777 shield roughly 38%

299 absorb roughly 21%

Afk now so numbers are close to what I recalled from last night while looking at them.

When I swap the defense enhancements for absorb I take more damage. Which is why I'm dealing with the spikey dmg I take especially in larger pulls. Just want to even it out so my healer is taxed less.

Jugg tank. With full 69's mostly min/maxed

more absorb will give you a smoother profile, but you will take a little more damage overall

not sure what the % is

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

read and learn.

So how am I doing stat wise Dipstick or anyone else that is knowledgeable?

I am all about be least squishy as possible. I am full 72 Vanguard tank complete with 4 set bonus and all underworld gear (implants and ear). Right now my relics are the UW Fort Redoubt and War Hero of imp serenity. Also, got my first piece of 75 for my bracers recently.

38,266 HP

DC 22.80%

SC 38.90

SA 36.73

(I also use riot gas on cool down as often as i can)

I have followed this and KBN's posts with regards to stat balances with both my Jugg and BH. However, I see more and more ppl now going down the route of less defense and more shield.

Also, in a raid last night, I healed a Jugg & BH which neither had more than 12% Defense. I though to myself.....here we go! However, one of the easiest healing Raids I have done as a healer (TFB). After speaking to them, they again confirmed, they went heavy on shield and took points out of defense.

This has really confused me now, after all the work both Dpstik and KBN have done, I am starting to think that from experience, the number don't work.

Anyone else noticed the same?

what are your mitigation ratings?

For my Van Tank my mitigation fully buffed and stim is:

Endr: 3389

Def 973 + 11.80%

Shield 876 + 17%

Abs 520 +12.7%

Anyone else noticed the same?

Remember, there's a difference between "easy to heal" and "least amount of healing required".

KBN and dipstik's numbers are focused upon maximizing mitigation, which means reducing incoming damage as much as possible. It's a long term view.

By stacking Shield and getting rid of Defense/Absorb, you're making it easier to heal you (by reducing spikiness, which can best be described, in this sense, as "chance of an unmitigated hit going through") but increasing the amount of damage you take and healing you require.

The reason that mean mitigation means less than it used to is because, right now, tanks aren't dying because they're taking a crapton of damage over the course of a fight or across a large number of attacks; they're dying because they're taking a *lot* of damage over a short period of time. As such, survivability isn't so much a question of taking *less* damage but taking damage in a manner that can be healed in a more steady manner.

Rather than the numbers being wrong, it's more of a question of needing to reconsider the model to tackle the design of RotHC's content. It's been designed *very* differently than the pre-2.0 content, which emphasized mean mitigation over spikiness minimization. Of course, if the content was designed with this different construct in mind (rather than it just being an accidental tweak on the part of the content design team), one has to wonder why the hell the devs weren't paying attention to what was going on with the modified spikiness of the tanks in 2.0 (i.e. Guardians became super smooth and Shadows actually became spikier) while consistently referring to Shadows still being excellent tanks thanks to their excellent mean mitigation (which, by consequence of the new mechanics) when mean mitigation means absolutely nothing.

Honestly, if spikiness is going to be the only mitigation construct that matters (which it seems like it's going to be unless the devs pull a full reverse on what they seem to be doing), we'll have to revise the optimal distributions (i.e. massive amounts of Shield) which creates some *very* boring mitigation profiles. I *seriously* hope the devs actually realize what the hell they've ended up doing, screwing up was, previously, a really interesting design construct for tanks (balancing out mean mitigation and spikiness) by replacing it with a really boring one (spikiness is the only thing that matters).

I have followed this and KBN's posts with regards to stat balances with both my Jugg and BH. However, I see more and more ppl now going down the route of less defense and more shield.

 

Also, in a raid last night, I healed a Jugg & BH which neither had more than 12% Defense. I though to myself.....here we go! However, one of the easiest healing Raids I have done as a healer (TFB). After speaking to them, they again confirmed, they went heavy on shield and took points out of defense.

 

This has really confused me now, after all the work both Dpstik and KBN have done, I am starting to think that from experience, the number don't work.

 

Anyone else noticed the same?

Hmm... optimising for less overall damage vs optimising for smoother damage. My personal preference is towards smoother damage, simply because its much easier for the healer.

For my Van Tank my mitigation fully buffed and stim is:

 

Endr: 3389

Def 973 + 11.80%

Shield 876 + 17%

Abs 520 +12.7%

you should shoot for: 796 def, 960 shield, 612 absorb with that budget

based on the tfb data i have (data posted by kbn in 2.0 pts), after weighting the fights for the fraction of dps each boss does and weighting the weapon/tech fraction i get (in order of bosses):

w/k t/k w/i t/i

2171.39 0.00 1047.81 109.11

0.652400161 0 0.314816206 0.032783633

858.88 0.00 487.17 424.48

0.485099549 0 0.275155054 0.239745397

967.12 0.00 243.01 0.00

0.799190142 0 0.200809858 0

455.95 0.00 726.38 64.62

0.365652621 0 0.582527093 0.051820286

2097.94 0.00 541.38 180.99

0.743868876 0 0.191956945 0.064174179

FINAL ANSWER:

w/k t/k t/i

0.631374959 0.293530511 0.07509453

based on these numbers i get:

shadows:

200

1056

1319

jugg:

947

860

887

PT:

371

1356

966

---------------

This highlights another problem for shadows. shadows optimal distribution of stats is far more sensitive to the damage weights of each boss than the other two classes. i think this is quite evident by showing that:

the (absolute value of) change of optimal defense with respect to the change in fraction weapon/kinetic is much higher than the other two classes.

200 defense on a shadow? Sure I can swap the EWH Defense relic for a EWH Shield one, what am I gonna do for absorb then ... hmm....the increase in shield is marginal even with that 120 value. Will that really make a difference ?? its not more than 1.x %. I am already at 57%+ chance without it. I was thinking of a heally relic dipstik! You've ruined my day

sorry leafy.

healy relic and shield EWH is not a bad option for trying to switch stuff up for tfb. what ive seen people do in the past is have a migh mitigation set and a high endurance set that they switch between...

i suggest the high endruance set (high endurance mods and enduance augments maybe) have high shield/absorb, and the high mitigation set have high defense.

@dipstik: One Question:

Am i right that for the relic migation you take the optimal stat Distribution and compare then the different relics with this optimal Distribution, to see which relic gives the final best migation value?

Wouldnt it be more accurate if you (i can just speak for sin tanks here) take the migation stats a relic provides (f.e. 550 defense proc with uptime + 32 stats defense Rating is about don't know 180 defense Rating on average) and take them as additional stats into your formula for optimal migation stats.

This way you would have an optimal Ratio of d/s/a in the end of your calculation. If you do it the other way round i think the d/s/a ratio is then a bit off from the optimal calculated value. As the Healing Relic isn't providing any stats at all for calculations you won't need to do any permutations (atleast for sin tanks )

you should shoot for: 796 def, 960 shield, 612 absorb with that budget

I swap my augments around a bit. This is about as close as i can get without major mod changes. Right now my stats are as followed. I'll let you know over the next few days how it is working out.

Def - 20.91% (781) +9.91

shield- 40.36% (972) +18.36

abs 38.7% (616)+ 14.7

@dipstik: One Question:

Am i right that for the relic migation you take the optimal stat Distribution and compare then the different relics with this optimal Distribution, to see which relic gives the final best migation value?

Wouldnt it be more accurate if you (i can just speak for sin tanks here) take the migation stats a relic provides (f.e. 550 defense proc with uptime + 32 stats defense Rating is about don't know 180 defense Rating on average) and take them as additional stats into your formula for optimal migation stats.

This way you would have an optimal Ratio of d/s/a in the end of your calculation. If you do it the other way round i think the d/s/a ratio is then a bit off from the optimal calculated value. As the Healing Relic isn't providing any stats at all for calculations you won't need to do any permutations (atleast for sin tanks )

this gets sticky due to the diminishing returns for the relic downtime leaving you most susceptible to damage. i have always considered relics to be "on top of gear" (except for pvp static relics obviously). i know others that gear in the manner you speak of, but i cannot say that i suggest it.

what would need to calced out woud be the mitigation with non-relic balanced stats versus relic-balanced stats, and see which fares better. considering the uptime is much smaller than the downtime, and the downtime is more balance with non-relic balanced stats, my initial guess owuld be non-relic would fare better.

of course i could generate a new expression to optimize... but that would still serve to depreciate mitigation for 17/23rds of the time... and the numbers of this optimiztion would most likey be very similar to non-relic optimized numbers... i think

so i did the calc. basically just took 17/23*mit+6/23*mitd, where mit is non-relic and mitd is with defense relic and found optimal stats for optimizing each (did not use shield floor of 860)

normal mit optimize:

d 662

s 790

a 1083

damage without proc(pre heals absorb) 1376.96

damage with proc weighted 1355.56

optimizing weighted mitigation:

522

864

1149

1377.58

1354.96

so you take 1/2 a dps more for 17/23, but you take 1/2 dps less overall...

these results are very similar (off by like 20 defense), to just assuming the KD def proc provides 155 def (ignoring the static defense)

Remember, there's a difference between "easy to heal" and "least amount of healing required".

 

KBN and dipstik's numbers are focused upon maximizing mitigation, which means reducing incoming damage as much as possible. It's a long term view.

 

By stacking Shield and getting rid of Defense/Absorb, you're making it easier to heal you (by reducing spikiness, which can best be described, in this sense, as "chance of an unmitigated hit going through") but increasing the amount of damage you take and healing you require.

 

The reason that mean mitigation means less than it used to is because, right now, tanks aren't dying because they're taking a crapton of damage over the course of a fight or across a large number of attacks; they're dying because they're taking a *lot* of damage over a short period of time. As such, survivability isn't so much a question of taking *less* damage but taking damage in a manner that can be healed in a more steady manner.

And that is exactly why I use the proc shield relic instead of fortunate redoubt on my pt, even though redoubt is BiS, I may take more dmg but I think that when you trust your healers enough (if you don't you want to take less dmg probably) to work more on reducing spikiness than overall dmg taken. A lot of incoming dmg is no problem for a good healer but very spiky and unpredictable dmg can make even a very good healer let his tank die.

Also the reason why I have the immunity and sturdiness enhancements on my shadow, and I'm not switching until I get good 31 enhancements to replace them (which pretty much give the same mitigation but better endurance, in other words I wont be less spiky just survive a little more)

Those tank distributions and pretty much everything on theorycrafting is a guide but its never something you should follow blindly, you have to understand it and adapt it to your playstyle and situation, another very good example of that is that I always have spare relics on inventory so I can adapt to the boss I'm fighting, like dipstik pointed a few posts before dmg profiles make a difference in the stats distribution and this is even more noticeable on shadows, while its not really viable to have different gear sets for each instance or fight its always easy to swap relics.

I'm sure I am missing something and maybe someone can help. But why is there such a contrast in stat distribution between this post AND KBN's post over at: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

I have a Vanguard at about 2400 stat budget and there is a 200 point difference listed in Defense in each respective post:

Dipstik: 2400 Defense: 794 Shield: 978 Absorb: 628

KBN: 2400,{defense->993,shield->878,absorb->530

Is this just one of those things where some say more defense is better for less overall damage vs. Smoother Damage with more absorb? Or are KBN's values not as effective for 2.2? I'm new to all this numbers game stuff, so just curious as to why there is such a difference listed in each post, as both posts are referenced to as starting points for stat distribution.

Again, I'm probably missing something. HAHA

But why is there such a contrast in stat distribution between this post AND KBN's post over at: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

They used to be almost identical and then dipstik changed his values to account for a different incoming attack ratio. Said ratio skewed the value in favor of Shield/Absorb for all of the classes because it assumed more F/T damage than before.

the damage weight numbers are actually the same. KBN used only the k/e info to get 0.79 by taking .7793/(.7793+.207). i have the extra 1% damage in i/e. both of us still get 1 (.79+.21 versus .7793+.207+.0137), but i have 3 weights and he has 2. there is no difdference in this regard since optimization does not take i/e into account, but i left it in my calcs for post armor dtps.

the difference you are seeing is due to KBN assume a contant 7.x% buff to defense due to oil slick, where i consider that to be mroe of a oh crap cd.

another difference is the way in which shield is treated. he assumes that shield is between 40 and 60%, but i do not have any requirements on shield for vanguards, since they want more than the minimum obtainable (unlike shadow and guardian for snv hm numbers... tfb hm is a different story).

hope that helps