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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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The way I used ignorant it was not an insult. I am ignorant of many things as is everyone. He didn't read my other posts.

 

A decent matchmaking system is nothing like this. Especially if they allow diff faction teams.

 

Solo only Q would actually be easeir to game than matching.

 

I HATE PUGSTOMPING. I want premades to fight premades and pugs to fight pugs.

 

THEY WILL NOT DO SOLO ONLY Q WITHOUT CROSS SERVER AND CROSS SERVER IS NOT HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON.

 

As soon as you realize this we can work together and pester the devs to fix pvp.

 

Also, remember with mixed faction teams then if 2 imp premades q and 0 pub ones q then the imp premades will fight eachother while the pugs will be on both sides.

 

That's why I said I support cross server queue's and solo bracket many times before, because you need both to come full circle to helping out pretty much everyone.

 

Solo bracket = Breeds new players

Cross server queue's= Higher competition base.

 

It's a win-win if both of these things are put in the game at the same time.

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Are you a programmer? Have you ever programmed a matching algorithm? Do you know how many Programmers Bioware has? Do you know how to split queue's?

 

I'm going to guess no to pretty much all of that. Simply put, you (and I) do not know how long it would take Bioware to do either option. As stated before, I do not believe bioware has the luxury to make another stupid hasty fix. We need a "real" solution to the "correct" problem.

 

Fyi. No one likes being lab rats. Should see how many people complained about ToR being incomplete, and essentially Paying to Beta Test in the first 6 months of this game.

 

Actually I studied programming at university and I know a fair bit about game coding. While I have never programmed any MMO games (I give you that) the company I work for as an IT tech has several quite sophisticated proprietary programmes that I have helped develop and modify. I can make reasonable guesses based on the algorithms I've been working with so far. And it is as I have said, I know this for a fact: the more paramateres a program has to analyze, the more variables we need to input, the more expensive, difficult, complex the program becomes. Even a simple data analyzer program that only measures two values (bought/sold) becomes significantly more complex if you add in just one more parameter (faulty products.) But enough about me, I don't want to bore you with my personal life.

 

Expertise in itself is not enough to be a deciding factor when trying to make balanced matches. Valor in itself is not enough either. Average mod levels and armor rating is not enough. Team composition is not enough in itself and never mind that it can't distinguish between tank/dps and heal/dps variants of the same AC. And what about hybrids?

You'd need a value (preferably hidden) that takes all the abovementioned into account. And of course, implement safeguards for the inevitable attempts to circumvent the system. Sure it can be done given enough time and money, no one is doubting that, other games have developed similar systems after all. But what until that joyful day? Leave PvP as it is, in this miserable state? I don't think so.

 

Let's examine queue separation as an interim solution (that is UNTIL WE GET MATCH MAKING) that measures two values. The person who presses button 1, gets into group 1. The person who presses button 2, gets into group 2. What happens when a premade is trying to synch solo queue? 2 people will be placed on each team if it's a same faction match. 2 will be placed on one team and 2 will wait for the next match if it's an opposite faction match. And you know what? You can even allow solo players to press button 2! That way all the masochist, self-tormenting fakirs who want to face certain death for faster queues can fill out leftover spots in premade groups.

 

So yeah, once again, match making all the way. But until that happens let's not sit back comfortably and sip Corellian Ale but do something that curbs the rate at which we lose people.

Edited by CommanderKeeva
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I suspect that unless they completely eliminate the reg wz queue and make everyone queue rated, that x-server matchmaking won't matter. I"m sure that even with x-server, the population is too thin for rated, but rated is the only system with any sort of matchmaking that can be based on reliable stats (wins/loses). we've already established that you can fool any gear check. but then you'd be creating solo queueing in rated and asking BW to do a group finder sort of thing to construct grps, and ppl cheat that all the time (e.g., a tank AC queues as tank for EV cuz 2 tanks are required, but he has no intention of tanking). either way, it's pretty bleak.

 

I'd give solo queues a shot. it seems more doable than the other options. it's pretty clear that BW is technically limited by the engine they're using.

 

please pardon me if my rambling doesn't make any sense. I'm mesmerized by the jailhouse bumble bee uniforms that the steelers are wearing. is this for real?

 

I can't believe they are wearing those uniforms but on another note.

 

I think cross server queue's will help, that's only my opionon though, I have no real facts to back that up since I can't predict the future. So far only three options been really making sense:

 

Solo bracket

Cross server queue's

Improved Matchmaking

 

If you want to save pvp from dieing, then put in the first suggestion but not without cross server queue's. I don't know the code bioware uses and I'm not part of the dev team, so if matchmaking is broken then it would help things along. Bioware can't stop at matchmaking because then you are just getting more of the same.

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yep. I don't doubt that x-server would help. it's just...very late in the game, and its impact at this stage will be relatively minimal. there will be a spike for about a week while ppl test the waters, and then it will die because the pools are too shallow, and only the few top guilds will have it in themselves to queue. and then the top guilds' egos will be bruised when they lose to other servers' top guilds, so they'll throttle back on their queues and only queue when they have their absolute best possible comp online. so on and so forth. I don't need the force to see where this is going...
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I don't think pre-mades are killing non-ranked. Frankly, when I was starting out there was no way to win without them (that's just how dominant the random Imp pugs were back on my starting server). And even if you remove premades from non-ranked, you still don't solve the problem. People don't have gear and even if you are with a premade, you can't overcome that gap.

 

While Expertise damage done and damage resisted is supposed to = 0 for palyers at equal Expertise, I think the new curve has degenerated us back towards pre-1.1 (that is, when you'd have fully Battlemaster-geared players playing in the same bracket with 10-49 without gear at all). That's how big the gap is between War Hero and Recruit. Even worse, for the players that have taken this golden opportunity to come back with F2P, there is an entirely new curve they need to work on. The old Battlemaster gear on the old curve is worse than Recruit and some players are still adjusting to this (some of them are using straight PvE gear, which was viable way back when but ceased to be in 1.2).

 

Personally, I play PvP for competition, not for facerolling. If I wanted to deathmath and put up insane numbers off of defenseless puppies, I'd go play a shooter like Team Fortress 2 or Battlefield 3. I guess if people are serious about having fun killing people who are so undergeared they are helpless to stop you as you 2- or 3-shot them, then I think we have two wildly different views on what "fun" is and what the definition of "competition" means. Frankly, I'm fine either way. I'm min/maxed in full Combat Medic gear just the way I want. I've put my grind in so there's no skin off my back. But I also think the grind needs a look, and shy of that, matchmaking need an overhaul to at least make an attempt to keep teams roughly gear balanced.

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Ok, I play PVP alone since march. Never group with anybody. Except did 3 times RWZ with randoms :/

 

I have 4 chars on rep side and have 1 on imp side already. I play PuGs on both sides as I said but that's ridiculous - both sides say other side is much better and face premades 80% of time! It's even worse for imps side because they face imp-imp 70% of all games and at the prime time most of those games are vs premades. It's like system do 1 random team and group against premades. I don't believe it couldnt make 2nd random team on both sides. It happens most of times.

 

Just got fight when opposit team made each over 450k dmg (their healers did 1mil+ in summary) and ours was 300k maximum! Furthemore - never seen those nicks fighting by Jedi month ago or nowadays in my group as Sith.

 

So it clear explains, ones are old returned now or newly geared but premades.

I dont care though, I just want them be removed from normal WZs totally. Best solution can be randomizer which makes grouping by equal gearing, meaning team 1 has 10000 of armor ratings, team 2 has 9500 - 10500 ratings in total.

 

And finally, If people will have 3 free wz per week do you really think they will buy some more being smashed all 3 free times?

 

P.S. And yes, now I avoid "after-daily-reset" fights. I do it starting in morning till reset. Evening time is just continious resurection. :/

Edited by alexzk
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Actually I studied programming at university and I know a fair bit about game coding. While I have never programmed any MMO games (I give you that) the company I work for as an IT tech has several quite sophisticated proprietary programmes that I have helped develop and modify. I can make reasonable guesses based on the algorithms I've been working with so far. And it is as I have said, I know this for a fact: the more paramateres a program has to analyze, the more variables we need to input, the more expensive, difficult, complex the program becomes. Even a simple data analyzer program that only measures two values (bought/sold) becomes significantly more complex if you add in just one more parameter (faulty products.) But enough about me, I don't want to bore you with my personal life.

 

Expertise in itself is not enough to be a deciding factor when trying to make balanced matches. Valor in itself is not enough either. Average mod levels and armor rating is not enough. Team composition is not enough in itself and never mind that it can't distinguish between tank/dps and heal/dps variants of the same AC. And what about hybrids?

You'd need a value (preferably hidden) that takes all the abovementioned into account. And of course, implement safeguards for the inevitable attempts to circumvent the system. Sure it can be done given enough time and money, no one is doubting that, other games have developed similar systems after all. But what until that joyful day? Leave PvP as it is, in this miserable state? I don't think so.

 

Let's examine queue separation as an interim solution (that is UNTIL WE GET MATCH MAKING) that measures two values. The person who presses button 1, gets into group 1. The person who presses button 2, gets into group 2. What happens when a premade is trying to synch solo queue? 2 people will be placed on each team if it's a same faction match. 2 will be placed on one team and 2 will wait for the next match if it's an opposite faction match. And you know what? You can even allow solo players to press button 2! That way all the masochist, self-tormenting fakirs who want to face certain death for faster queues can fill out leftover spots in premade groups.

 

So yeah, once again, match making all the way. But until that happens let's not sit back comfortably and sip Corellian Ale but do something that curbs the rate at which we lose people.

 

Well, I certianly admit I made a false assumption about your background. Sorry about that.

 

I still don't think Bioware can afford to make a short term fix like seperate queue's considering the potential blowback for little gains. (Most important, how would the group bracket backfill, or fill for incomplete warzones?)

 

Another interesting thing I found, look at this quote talking about the plans for ranked in 1.2:

 

The Ranked Warzone matchmaking system will match full groups of eight against one another, solo players against one another, players with similar ratings, etc. However, in order to ensure that players won’t have to wait too long for a match to occur, the system will become more ‘flexible’ over time. Solo and group queued players might be pulled together after a while if needed to launch a match. If a match cannot be made for extended periods of time, then Normal and Rank queued players (except those who queued as a group of five or more) might be pulled together to launch a ‘mixed’ match. Players will always be notified when a mixed match is made on the Warzone enter prompt. The rewards received in mixed matches will be based on how the player queued (type of commendations, rating adjustment if any, etc.).

 

Quoted Article

 

While I found no mention of a ranked matchmaking system actually being implemented in the 1.3 notes or it's article, it appears there may even be ground work alread designed for what has been suggested. Essentially a split solo and group queue, yet with the ability (and flexibility) to cross fill after a short amount of time.

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
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Does anyone consider what happens when a group of 3 queues up? Are they going to have to wait for another 3 to queue on their side? Do they have to hope that someone passes on the solo only queue and queues by his/herself into the group queue? Is their team screwed in an 8v7 eventually? Do they now have to have 2 or 4 people only? Backfilling dc's? Are we going the same as ranked where you are just screwed since there aren't any singles queuing?

 

I'm not sure people have truly thought through the logistics of the situation.

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While I found no mention of a ranked matchmaking system actually being implemented in the 1.3 notes or it's article, it appears there may even be ground work alread designed for what has been suggested. Essentially a split solo and group queue, yet with the ability (and flexibility) to cross fill after a short amount of time.

 

I could accept (I still consider it a hack, instead of "proper" matchmaking) this with the notification, so I know what matches not to enter. If I choose to PUG I will not want to meet a premade.

 

In the end this is a futile discussion. People have their own POV and will act accordingly. Most likely less PUGS will PVP if nothing is being done to alter the situation.

Edited by Veniras
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1 minute is too short but if you make it 3-5 minutes AND!!! you allow mixed faction teams then most of the time this will solve the problem.

 

PLEASE REMEMBER PEOPLE swtor will not have cross server q's for awhile and I guarantee you they won't do a straight split q anytime soon without cross server. I'm not trying to be rude it is just the likelyhood of this is very low. Also, you will not get a huge following for this idea to make them want to in the first place.

 

The only logical course of action is to get behind a decent matchmaking system with mixed faction teams and push this hard. The mediocre premaders won't speak out too much against this idea since they don't really have any ground to stand on (besides admitting they want to pugstomp only). Also you will get the people that like to premade when they know they will fight other premades (like me) and the currently bored decent to good premaders.

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1 minute is too short but if you make it 3-5 minutes AND!!! you allow mixed faction teams then most of the time this will solve the problem.

 

PLEASE REMEMBER PEOPLE swtor will not have cross server q's for awhile and I guarantee you they won't do a straight split q anytime soon without cross server. I'm not trying to be rude it is just the likelyhood of this is very low. Also, you will not get a huge following for this idea to make them want to in the first place.

 

The only logical course of action is to get behind a decent matchmaking system with mixed faction teams and push this hard. The mediocre premaders won't speak out too much against this idea since they don't really have any ground to stand on (besides admitting they want to pugstomp only). Also you will get the people that like to premade when they know they will fight other premades (like me) and the currently bored decent to good premaders.

 

Uhm, no. I will never support any system that is not split queue. To do so would be only furthering the sad, sorry, mediocrity that is the match making system we already have. I won't accept a wet band-aid on a lacerated artery. The devs have had too long and been given too much information and forewarning to be given any leeway what-so-ever when it comes to this kind of problem. Letting them give us another bad match making system is just an excuse for them to drag their heels when it comes to fixing other problems. Until we get split queues, I'll either be queued with 4 or not queued at all.

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The unfair nature of PuG versus pre-made will easily drive players away from PvP. I got so frustrated with repeated stompings that I haven't PvPed in a week or so. I fired up my beloved bounty hunter and acquired HK-51, but after that I just couldn't bring myself to enter the queue. I've got an unfinished weekly and daily that I just can't be stuffed to finish. It's easy enough to lose your way through a daily (though frustrating beyond measure). But the weekly hasn't been doable.

 

Somehow, I kept running into Republic pre-mades on the Begeren Colony server and after attaining one victory in three days, I had enough and quit queueing.

 

Fair enough, it's the height of stupidity to try and PvP with an Arsenal merc. Throw a merc on a PuG team against a pre-made, though, and the chance for victory starts rolling in the negative percentages.

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In the last 2 days I have recorded fighting against 5 guilds on my server that can field a full RWZ team but chose to enter the solo que instead and completely decimated the PUG side. If I wasnt running into the same 4-8 man premade teams on a constant baises then I wouldn't have as big of a complaint. It seems like almost every match I play is a rotation of stunfest or smash rotation from a bunch of people in the same guild.

 

enter match one: 8 man guild

enter match 2: 8 man guild, different from the first

enter match 3: 4 man premade

enter match 4: the first guild again

enter match 5: a new 8 man guild, different from the first 2

enter match 6: 4 man premade.

enter match 7: na I have taken enough pug stomping for the day just like the other people I played with so congrats on killing the que a little bit.

 

That was my night tonight I had 3 guilds pugstomping, that's just from the pubs side I have no idea how many guild are doing it from the Empire side as I didn't play any Empire groups. Then last night I had 2 other guilds doing the same thing, I was alternateing between them it seemed like til I quit. So I know it's not that the RWZ don't work, it's people would rather /easymode for comms, and turn around an say PUGers are trying to get the same thing so shame on them.

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Mixed teams, pubs+imps, are not going to happen and to be frank I hope it will never happen (except maybe for huttball). Yes it would make match-making easier but IMHO it will ruin the entire game/lore foundation of the game. This is not WoT and it does have RPG in it's genre name :p. Pre-mades shouldn't get their separate queue and they should get PuG reinforcements, but they shouldn't ever face an all PuG team . Worse case scenario, there is only one pre-made team queued per server, that team will never get in a match. Time to break and join the PuGing. 2 pre-mades queued ? Happy times, back to back WZs. 3? One get's benched until the other 2 finish a match and then gets pitted against the losing team. 4? Happy times again. 5? Rinse and repeat. And round and round the circle goes.

If you are the in the only pre-made queued on a fairly populate server, chances are that you are queuing at an odd hour, and you are looking for a ROFL stomping experience. Sorry but no cake for you ;). I know one guild that used to do that exact thing before the server merges.

 

Match making should also take in consideration player specialization (player should check spec at queue up) and ... valor , I know it's meh but at least shows that the player has experience if not skill (my case :D). Too many PuG matches when one team, in a same faction match, get's all the healers.

 

Disclaimer: All above is opinion and founded on my experience. It is not the absolute truth or the gospel of god so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to point out the wrongs and maybe add some good ideas.

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In the last 2 days I have recorded fighting against 5 guilds on my server that can field a full RWZ team but chose to enter the solo que instead and completely decimated the PUG side. If I wasnt running into the same 4-8 man premade teams on a constant baises then I wouldn't have as big of a complaint. It seems like almost every match I play is a rotation of stunfest or smash rotation from a bunch of people in the same guild.

 

enter match one: 8 man guild

enter match 2: 8 man guild, different from the first

enter match 3: 4 man premade

enter match 4: the first guild again

enter match 5: a new 8 man guild, different from the first 2

enter match 6: 4 man premade.

enter match 7: na I have taken enough pug stomping for the day just like the other people I played with so congrats on killing the que a little bit.

 

That was my night tonight I had 3 guilds pugstomping, that's just from the pubs side I have no idea how many guild are doing it from the Empire side as I didn't play any Empire groups. Then last night I had 2 other guilds doing the same thing, I was alternateing between them it seemed like til I quit. So I know it's not that the RWZ don't work, it's people would rather /easymode for comms, and turn around an say PUGers are trying to get the same thing so shame on them.

 

Except, you can not queue an 8 man team for regular WZs. Two 4 man teams from the same guild can queue at once, but it is just as likely that they will end up with 4 PuGs instead of their other 4 man guild team.

 

If you did run into 8 members from the same guild, then it probably means that there were extremely few people queuing up to PvP.

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Do you really think there is any chance in hell BW will do split q's without cross server? Take rift for example (which was cross server at the time) when they first did premade matching it was pretty much a split q and pops took forever and a bunch of people quit (a lot of my pvp guild).

 

It would actually be more fun for the majority of the gamers if there was a SOLO ONLY option. The best games I've played in where two teams composed of random players.

 

I'm actually one of the few non-guild types who has grown a disdain for familiar guilds that practice team pugstomping. I've been asked to join them but I never will after witnessing the ANTI-FUN practices they selfishly indulge in

 

Give people the choice to either choose an all SOLO Queue or Group and this thread will go away.

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Except, you can not queue an 8 man team for regular WZs. Two 4 man teams from the same guild can queue at once, but it is just as likely that they will end up with 4 PuGs instead of their other 4 man guild team.

 

If you did run into 8 members from the same guild, then it probably means that there were extremely few people queuing up to PvP.

 

it's not hard to do they just Que up at the same time, as said several times in this thread. Let's say your in a guild you got 8 guys ready to go, you make your 2 groups and que at the same time. The odds are relatively high that they will be tossed on the same team because it's faster. The "random match making" that the game has isn't very random it grabs what is the fastest and easiest in the order it was qued. It's faster to grab two 4 man groups and toss some extra's on the other side then to split the two 4 man teams into two seperate games and then wait to find even more people.

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pre mades should be limited to only rateds, tho ill support being able to que with a friend as a group of two. the very fact that not one BW dev has posted their thoughts either way is disturbing to say the least. the problem at the moment is that there is no cross server pvp ques, at the moment the rated ques are abysmal and thats putting it kindly, if we had cross server pvp ques it would be doable.
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pre mades should be limited to only rateds, tho ill support being able to que with a friend as a group of two. the very fact that not one BW dev has posted their thoughts either way is disturbing to say the least. the problem at the moment is that there is no cross server pvp ques, at the moment the rated ques are abysmal and thats putting it kindly, if we had cross server pvp ques it would be doable.

 

This, this, and this. If youre pro, grab your friends and hit the rated scene, otherwise que solo.

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There are several Imp premades running almost constantly on P5. These days if you queue as Repub it seems like 80% of the time you'll get matched up against a premade and it's turning people off of even bothering to queue.

 

At the very least, prioritize premades against other premades, it will be funner for both sides. When I'm in a premade I know I don't like stomping pugs, it's boring and I'd rather go against another premade.

Edited by Stncold
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There are several Imp premades running almost constantly on P5. These days if you queue as Repub it seems like 80% of the time you'll get matched up against a premade and it's turning people off of even bothering to queue.

 

At the very least, prioritize premades against other premades, it will be funner for both sides. When I'm in a premade I know I don't like stomping pugs, it's boring and I'd rather go against another premade.

 

Yup I pug a lot and lose almost everytime, thanks to those premades.

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*Sighs*

 

Before my actual post, lemme restate my 3 main points again:

 

1. We need an improved matchmaking system (that matches on some criteria, be it gear level, valor rank, etc...)

2. We need cross-server queues for a health population.

3. People need to help themselves more.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Actual post: I have read, for the last 2 pages since my last post, a loop over and over again about "I fight against premades 80% of the time and it's killing blah..."

 

So again, can anyone give me a valid reason why the answer to losing to something, is -not- to do it in return?

 

1. If you see a Sin mezz cap something, do you ask for mezz's to be removed from the game, or do you copy it and mezz cap on your Sin?

 

2. If you see a team slowing yours down while one or two runners open bridges/cap doors, do you cry that slows are unfair ( and that team was cheap!) or do you try and slow the enemy down on your assault turn?

 

3. If you see the enemy constantly pull a 2/1/5 on civil war and win by take sides while distracting mid, do you tell them they should leave "your" starting turret (the one left from spawn) alone, or do you try the strategy next match?

 

4. If you see a guardian leap to a stealther at the end zone over and over for a score, do you decide that's cheap or do you do the same on your guardian?

 

5. etc...

 

I think any logical person would agree that if you see a strategy that works, you'd be foolish not to copy/use it, and if you can, improve upon it. So why is it that the strategy of forming part of your team and learning how to fight along side them, is one that the PuG-centric mass is unwilling to make?

 

I look back at almost all my tricks and tactics and remember when I lost to them before. I remember a time too when I thought thinks were 'cheap' and refused to use them. It made me a 'Scrub' in the very sense of the word. Consumables, stealth, "pocket-healer," mezzing, taking sides, etc... All of these things I've been victim too, and learned from. It's taken me from a so-so player to a sought after dps or healer.

 

It's time to learn people, it's time to grow. If premades make you lose, then my question is... why don't you take advantage of that tool?

 

 

((The only compliant about premades I find valid, is the mention of voice chat, which is essential an out of game advantage not widely available to all. Instead of focussing on nerfing teamwork, why not either ask Bioware to take a stance on third party voice chat, or include the feature in-game?))

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Yup I pug a lot and lose almost everytime, thanks to those premades.

 

or maybe it's you?

Leaving weakest (lowest hp) member to guard solo?

not calling?

not guarding?

not killing healer (better to attack dps , to have better stats)

folowing baits?

gettting hard on high dps instead of fast kills?

 

what is your sin?

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A pre-made team's greatest asset is coordination. That is born of voice communication (in many cases) as well as practice. Coordinated and effective teams function as a cohesive unit. This is their greatest asset and is something that a randomly assembled team of PuGs can never hope to emulate. Eight strangers drawn from different time zones, locales, and classes that have no prior knowledge of each other or their group's composition can never operate as a seamless unit in a warzone at a moment's notice. Not even with added voice communication.

 

That is why PuGs and pre-mades should be separate. No randomly assembled team can ever spontaneously match the skill and coordination of an existing pre-made. No way. No how. No where.

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A pre-made team's greatest asset is coordination. That is born of voice communication (in many cases) as well as practice. Coordinated and effective teams function as a cohesive unit. This is their greatest asset and is something that a randomly assembled team of PuGs can never hope to emulate. Eight strangers drawn from different time zones, locales, and classes that have no prior knowledge of each other or their group's composition can never operate as a seamless unit in a warzone at a moment's notice. Not even with added voice communication.

 

That is why PuGs and pre-mades should be separate. No randomly assembled team can ever spontaneously match the skill and coordination of an existing pre-made. No way. No how. No where.

 

Nonsense.

 

With the exception of voice chat coordination, any 8 players who know how to play can and will work perfectly together. Even if all 8 are not, 3-4 working together can achieve much the same effect. I offer an example of -just me- using an understanding of group play and strategy to affect the outcome of a match.

 

Civil War. The enemy team has captured mid and west, and the pug's on my team (I'm pugging it this round) are struggling to take a node. After wiping on the west turret, several of us go mid on respawn. I head back west as the enemy is running back towards mid. There are 2 guards on the turret, and 4 of them coming to defend mid. Now a average or bad pug at this point might have tried to ninja cap with 2 guards, but someone understanding group play launches into the group for heading toward mid, blowing stuns, mezzes, and roots. I delayed them about 20 seconds, and we captured mid.

 

With the exception of voice chat (which is a seperate issue I've mentioned before), the -only- difference between a good 4 man premade or 4 good pugs is a premade was grouped before the match.

 

Or as someone else put it, Premades don't make 4 good players, 4 good players make premades.

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
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