Be aware that this is primarily a PvP build, but can of course be tweaked to excel in a PvE environment. See further into the thread for more discussion regarding this spec prior to 2.0

 

 

 

So I'm finally getting around to updating this build with the 2.0 changes. Although many things have changed about the spec, the principle remains the same as it retains the same fast-paced feel and amount of utility that the original spec offered. The main things to note about what is different in the spec are as follows, and I'll go into more detail about what those changes entail further on in the post:

 

-New talents in the skill trees are available

-5 more skill points to allocate amongst our 3 trees

-A new skill: Shoulder Cannon

-CT is now tied to HEC

-PC does a little bit less damage, but procs more often

-HtL no longer has to be specced into

 

So let's go ahead and start with the change to CT. Having Gut up on a target no longer makes HIB automatically crit. With the other changes to critical chance in the 2.0 patch, I find that the spec as a whole has to rely more on BF and the Eliminators 4-pc bonus to have consistent damage output from HIB. It's not as big of a hit as it might seem at first, but it definitely reduces the sustained damage that the spec was capable of putting out. So going forward, BF and stacking a bit more crit is going to be the best way to maintain HIB damage output, however I've found that the rest of the talent changes make up for this DPS drop.

 

With the 5 new talent points, and no longer needing to spec into CT and HtL, we can grab AT and RoF. This is a huge increase in the damage that we can do with not only HIB, but the rest of the skills that are boosted by those talents. The final 2 points can be thrown into either Steely Resolve or Brutal Impact depending on personal preference. I find BI to be a better choice considering the focus on getting in as many HIB's in on the target as possible, but others may prefer the blanket DPS increase from having more Aim.

 

On top of that, there is a new choice in the Tactics tree called Triumph that boosts all damage done to bleeding targets(i.e. those that you're keeping Gut up on) by 3%.

 

The other changes can be grouped as they have minimal effect on the spec. The stance change can be looked at as a buff considering the spec has never relied on the passive PC DoT for damage, but rather to make sure HIB is always able to hit the target, and increasing the rate at which it procs means more uptime in general. Shoulder Cannon is a nice new ability that I find myself using to help with Ammo management as the damage it does is nothing spectacular without being specced into higher up in the talent tree(s). Some of the other new talents like Electro Shield, Hyer Assault Cell, and Assault Frame are just nice passive bonuses that increase our damage output and survivability respectively.

 

So all in all, the spec plays almost the same as it did before with a few nerfs and buffs that require adjusting to.

 

Below, you can find an edited version of the guide written before the changes were put through, although the tactics did not change much with 2.0.

 

 

 

I came up with this spec shortly before making my Vanguard/Powertech with the advent of Patch 1.2 after studying the trees and noticing the synergy between certain talents. The most notable of said talents WERE: Combat Tactics and Ionic Accelerator. In my experience, CT procced often enough to make over 90% of my HIB automatic critical hits. With the changes from 2.0, the spec is now simply reliant on IA which allows you to use HIB approximately every 6 seconds. The fast paced nature of this spec is what led me to the name: "Terminal Velocity."

 

The build focuses on running circles around opponents utilizing the 3 available DoTs(Gut, IR, and PC), HIB, SG's, and SS's(occasionally even free ones) to quickly burn down a high-priority target as well as put HEAVY pressure on any nearby healers. Generally, my primary targets are healers(who should always be burned down asap anyways) in order to keep them on the defensive. I effectively limit their impact on the game by forcing them to use their cleanse on CD and also consume what might possibly be a very valuable GCD every 6 seconds. Tabbing over to other targets to throw up a DoT or two and then switching back to the healer also contributes heavily to my team by enabling them to burn down targets faster(thanks to the healer being occupied) and then being able to move on to objectives quicker.

 

Aside from the DoTs, this build takes advantage of the excellent utility that is Hold The Line. This ability not only breaks any currently applied snares, but prevents you from being re-snared, pulled, pushed, or knocked back; AND increases your movement speed by 30% for it's 6-second duration. To top it off, its only on a 30-second CD. Pop this baby and run circles around anything and everything. This skill has so many uses, I won't even bother listing them all, but lets just say this: HtL makes you one of the best kiter's in the game, and under the right conditions, one of the better ball carriers around.

 

Now TV is fairly close to the burst capacity of full Assault, but puts out superior DPS once you've got DoTs rolling on multiple targets. HtL used to be the tie-breaker for me, as it allowed TV(and full Tactics) to pull ahead of Assault Specialist in the utility category, but as we all know by now, all Troopers and BH's have access to those skills. I can't really stress it enough, but it's definitely one of the best utility skills for any class in the game IMHO. No one can slow or pull you when it's up, so you get to run circles around anyone and everyone all the while burning them down with your DoTs and frequent HIB crits.

 

Give it a shot in WZ's for a good week, and then post what you think or any constructive criticism that you can offer.

 

Edited April 29, 2013 by Grimoir

Interesting spec. How much damage do you usually put out on a typical Voidstar?

Interesting spec. How much damage do you usually put out on a typical Voidstar?

 

About 350k solo-queue, and 400-430k when running with a pre-made, in an average match. I've gone above 500k in a full match before, but neither side was able to get a door.

I ran a spec like this for a long time. It's a good spec. I think Oozo ran a spec like this a while ago as well.

Questions on "Hold the Line" and killing healers

 

Does HTL remove ALL crowd control and prevent crowd control too? or just snares?

 

Are there tricks or special considerations on using HTL?

I thought you had to activate HTL "before" someone hit you with a crowd control. and so, you really have to know when to use it.

 

...sick and tired of being chain- stunned-frozen-spun up in the air-snared,,, etc, etc,

 

And about killing healers? when fighting Imperial Sith Inquisitors (electricity ppl) is there a "best" method for killing them? meaning do they have a particular weakness? or way around there defenses?

 

Thanks,

(Vanguard full BM Tank build atm)

Edited May 28, 2012 by StrykeHard

i used this build a while back on my old server as a PT and enjoyed it quite a bit. i did end up having to take a break and didn't quite get BM gear so now that 1.2 has been upon us for a while and ive rerolled to a more populated server, my question would be why you chose the armor you did.

 

is the combat tech BM gear really the best choice?? for a build like this which i plan on running along with full assault (just because its a lot of fun sometimes), would you still recommend the combat tech gear and why? it seems like the eliminator set with the HiB bonus would be much better.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Citizen-Snips

Questions on "Hold the Line" and killing healers

 

Does HTL remove ALL crowd control and prevent crowd control too? or just snares?

 

Are there tricks or special considerations on using HTL?

I thought you had to activate HTL "before" someone hit you with a crowd control. and so, you really have to know when to use it.

 

...sick and tired of being chain- stunned-frozen-spun up in the air-snared,,, etc, etc,

 

And about killing healers? when fighting Imperial Sith Inquisitors (electricity ppl) is there a "best" method for killing them? meaning do they have a particular weakness? or way around there defenses?

 

Thanks,

(Vanguard full BM Tank build atm)

 

 

 

HtL/HO only breaks any current movement-impairing/snare effects, so no, it wont break any other form of CC.

 

I wouldn't say there are any tricks per say, but its useful in a variety of situations where you know someone is going to impede your movement in one way or another. For example: You have the ball and you're about to cross the final flame jet on your way into the goal. You know the other team will try to stop you in any way they can, but they don't want to whitebar(fill your resolve bar) in case you have your CC breaker up. More than likely, their first choice will be to knock/pull/push you into the pit/flames or otherwise, further away from the goal line. In apprehension, you can pop HtL/HO and make them unable to do anything to you other than kill you or fully stun you. A good healer can save you from the former, and the latter can be mitigated by your CC breaker if their stun fills your resolve bar.

 

Other situations that highlight its effectiveness would include: Chasing an opponent that attempts to get away from you by snaring or LoSing you. Use HtL/HO and all they can do to get away is stun you, which may or may not fill your resolve fully. Good players will know how to stop you without white-barring you of course, but it can still be helpful to catch them off guard with your speed and snare/knockback/pull/push immunity. It can also mean the difference between life and death when running AWAY from a player or group of players. The speed boost can get you out of range of any slowing, rooting, or pulling effects.

 

Also, be sure to save that CC breaker for when you absolutely KNOW you'll need it. Rome-Fu's Resolve Guide is an awesome resource for deciding when its good to use it and when its good to save it.

 

As for killing healers, I keep a really close eye on their buffs and debuffs. I always start out with either Gut/RB or Incendiary Round/Missle(sometimes both), and as soon as I see them cleanse the DoT(s), I immediately re-apply to keep the pressure up. Cleanses only get rid of 2 effects, so with two of my three DoTs also applying a snare, chances are they'll end up with a combination of debuffs/damage ticking still present even after the cleanse. Gut/RB in itself is fairly cheap to spam(and I use this term VERY lightly to describe my use of the skill) so applying it every couple GCDs to a new target, or again to the healer who cleansed it, remains ammo efficient. Not to mention that Gut ticks have a chance to proc CT which makes my next HiB/RS and automatic crit.

 

Interrupting is key to taking down a healer of course, just be sure to pay attention to what exactly it is that you're interrupting. Don't kick Diagnostic Scan for example. Good healers will start an insignificant cast-bar ability to bait an interrupt, and if you're the only DPS attacking them and you waste that skill, you more than likely just allowed for a big heal to go off. Sure you can stun them, but that builds resolve whereas Riot Strike/Quell do not.

 

Another tip is to space out your stuns, especially if you're the only person attacking the healer. If you wait long enough between stuns, your second CC won't push them over the resolve limit and therefore open up your usage of possibly a third form of CC, such as a yank, to prevent them from running away/casting/healing up/getting to a destination or objective. Particularly for Sorcs/Sages, I'll save my Harpoon/Grapple to pull them back when they try to run away. HtL/HO is useful when they do their knockback to get rid of the possible talented snare and to get back in range of course. Stunning them when you're waiting for a hard hitting ability to come off CD or to stop a cast/force run is a valid tactic as well. It keeps them in range, stops them from re-bubbling, and also allows you to get in a little more burst to drop them. One final tip: use the **** out of Gut/RB if you've talented the snare. It does a fantastic job of keeping people from getting out of your very short range.

 

i used this build a while back on my old server as a PT and enjoyed it quite a bit. i did end up having to take a break and didn't quite get BM gear so now that 1.2 has been upon us for a while and ive rerolled to a more populated server, my question would be why you chose the armor you did.

 

is the combat tech BM gear really the best choice?? for a build like this which i plan on running along with full assault (just because its a lot of fun sometimes), would you still recommend the combat tech gear and why? it seems like the eliminator set with the HiB bonus would be much better.

 

I see no reason to get the BM eliminator 4-piece set with how often Combat Tactics/Charged Gauntlets procs in the this spec for the auto-crit on HiB/RS. The Combat Tech 2-piece set bonus is worth it to begin with for the extra .5 seconds to our AoE stun, and more importantly the reduced CD on our CC breaker. The Stockstrike/Rocket Punch crit chance is just icing on the cake as I see it, especially considering how often you'll use the ability with Battering Ram/Flame Barrage giving you a free hit and for proccing IA/PPA.

 

Now it's also pertinent to mention at this point that I also occasionally run in a 31/8/2 spec with DPS gear and a Shield. The Combat Tech 4-piece is great for this spec with the increased surge and ability reset talents in the tank tree, so it doubles its effectiveness in that aspect for me.

 

If you plan to run pure Assault/Pyro and TV, then grab the Eliminators set. You'll see a much larger benefit from the 4-piece HiB/RS crit chance bonus in AS/Pyro than when using the Combat Tech armor set, and it can potentially free up some points from the TV spec if you want to drop CT/CG and aren't too partial to the talented snare on Gut/RB.

How is the ammo consumption with this spec. While I love the idea of this spec, 2 things makes me wonder. If you are throwing out IR which is a 3 ammo skill on several targets don't you run into ammo probs? Does the free procs on HIB and SS help make up for this? Why not paralytic stims for the extra ammo. I find I get stunned enough to gain quite a few ammos per minute in pvp.

 

Plus you are losing the CD decrease in AS on the shield which adds a lot of survivability. It seems to be up about every minute for me. You lose Shock absorbers on tactics. I am assuming you mean the survivability is better than AS only not on a full tactics build now that I re read your post. Even the full tactics guy who wrote the tactics sticky post stated in one of his posts that he split 4 fights against an AS build 1 v 1.. Not an important point but I do think people tend to underestimate how much that shield helps on surviving at least for me.

 

I am only 35 currently and I am not being negative. I would like this to be a great build.. I am almost broke going back and forth as I love the utility of the low cooldown on RS and Harpoon and HTL is the bomb but love the dots and range of AS but hate getting snared all the time and Im getting over the Big Numbers on AS. I dislike being tied to PG every 12 seconds on the tactics side which makes this build very attractive to me. I do get decent numbers on tactics but unfortunately I tend to focus more on non dps items like pressuring healers and such and using the crap out of harpoon and RS.. this tends to be the reason my numbers drop more on the tactics build as I don't seem to use my area attacks as much as my AS spec. Sorry digressing here..

 

Thanks..

Edited May 29, 2012 by Morath

How is the ammo consumption with this spec. While I love the idea of this spec, 2 things makes me wonder. If you are throwing out IR which is a 3 ammo skill on several targets don't you run into ammo probs? Does the free procs on HIB and SS help make up for this? Why not paralytic stims for the extra ammo. I find I get stunned enough to gain quite a few ammos per minute in pvp.

 

Plus you are losing the CD decrease in AS on the shield which adds a lot of survivability. It seems to be up about every minute for me. You lose Shock absorbers on tactics. I am assuming you mean the survivability is better than AS only not on a full tactics build now that I re read your post. Even the full tactics guy who wrote the tactics sticky post stated in one of his posts that he split 4 fights against an AS build 1 v 1.. Not an important point but I do think people tend to underestimate how much that shield helps on surviving at least for me.

 

I am only 35 currently and I am not being negative. I would like this to be a great build.. I am almost broke going back and forth as I love the utility of the low cooldown on RS and Harpoon and HTL is the bomb but love the dots and range of AS but hate getting snared all the time and Im getting over the Big Numbers on AS. I dislike being tied to PG every 12 seconds on the tactics side which makes this build very attractive to me. I do get decent numbers on tactics but unfortunately I tend to focus more on non dps items like pressuring healers and such and using the crap out of harpoon and RS.. this tends to be the reason my numbers drop more on the tactics build as I don't seem to use my area attacks as much as my AS spec. Sorry digressing here..

 

Thanks..

 

Generally, I only use IR/IM on my primary target because of that high ammo cost. I also almost always pair RPC/TSO with my IR/IM, which of course makes it free. Now applying Gut/RB to multiple targets as they move in and out of range as I pressure my primary target is much more ammo efficient. This tactic provides utility in the talented slow and helps put quite a bit of pressure on any nearby healers as it ticks down on multiple enemies forcing the healer to expend resources and a GCD with either a heal, or more often than not, a cleanse. The free HiB/RS and SS/RP procs are amazing for keeping up ammo in my expereince.

 

Honestly, I rarely find myself going below 7 ammo with the way I utilize Hammer Shots/Rapid Shots. I think it mostly has to do with my practice and understanding of ammo consumption and regeneration from playing my Gunnery Commando since launch. PS/GAJ has potential to restore/vent quite a bit of ammo/heat, but think about this(trooper perspective): If I get stunned at or above 8 ammo, the duration of the stun without being broken will be long enough to regen back to 10 or 11 ammo, so I'll still be fine by the end of the CC. In the past when I've been stunned with low ammo, the 1 regen doesn't go very far in helping me when the CC wears off as either I'm almost dead or my opponent is far enough away that I wont have any abilities outside of HiB/RS or a wasteful IR/IM to hit them with. Recharge Cells/Vent Heat is also your best friend when you're low/high on ammo/heat. If you go through a burn phase and are forced to use RC/VH, then you need to focus on not going below/above an acceptable regen level of ammo/heat until it those come back up or you know you'll be out of combat long enough to use your OOC heal/resource regen ability.

 

This spec is not on the survivable side unless you know how to use your CDs. That goes for any spec really though. You need to know when to pop your shield and when to stun opponents in order to extend your life-span. Now with HtL/HO, we have an extra tool for keeping in and out of range of opponents which, when used properly, can lead to quite a bit of increased survivability. One of the most important things to learn when playing any MMO, is positioning. This is even more important in PvP, and especially so as a melee class. Be sure to watch your surroundings and know how to utilize your environment to increase your survival rate. In 1v1's its more about properly using CDs, which is not something this spec has any special talent buffs to, at least not defensively outside of a reduced CD on CG/ED.

 

I would recommend TV if you want to be in the thick of the action ALL THE TIME.

 

You're not missing out on long range DoT's at all, as this spec takes that half of the beneficial talents from AS. You numbers should also never be low if you're targeting a healer most of the game. With them attempting to keep themselves alive, you'll actually end up with more damage in the long run as the two of you play tug-of-war with their health bar. AS definitely isn't about AoEs either by the way. The spec focuses on single target damage, bursting down individuals as fast as possible in order to move onto the next target with very rare and situational use of AoE abilities like MV/DFG on a group of enemies crowding a door or a sticky grenade as your target flees towards a crowd of enemies.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Grimoir

If you plan to run pure Assault/Pyro and TV, then grab the Eliminators set. You'll see a much larger benefit from the 4-piece HiB/RS crit chance bonus in AS/Pyro than when using the Combat Tech armor set, and it can potentially free up some points from the TV spec if you want to drop CT/CG and aren't too partial to the talented snare on Gut/RB.

 

that makes sense, but why would you want to drop CT and the Gut snare when choosing to go with the Eliminators set?

 

i really dont see anywhere to put those two points either.

 

also, i think we are in agreement that the HiB 4pc is much better than the Shockstrike 4pc bonus. really the difference seems to be do you want a .5 second increase on an aoe stun and 15 second reduction in our stun breaker for the difference in the DPS increase from the eliminators set. it sounds like with Hold the Line in this spec those CC increases dont really make up for how often crits are going to happen with your HiB.

 

knowing im not going to play the tanking spec, eliminators is surely the way to go for me.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Citizen-Snips

Grimoir: Love this build! I only know it as a run-and-gun build, mentioned in one of Taugrim's post earlier but never been descriped as thorough as this, great! I currently use the 1/22/18 spec. I wonder which rotation do you use?

Quick thought for this build... would you ever consider dropping 1 point from Ionic Accelerator to drop into Pulse Generator? So your 2 main attacks would only have a 30/40% chance to proc it, but PG would enter the equation, and with Explosive Surge you could set up 5 stacks of PG easily before most encounters.

 

With the way its currently bugged for VG's, that means you could open fights with a 50% stronger Sticky (almost as powerful as Assault Plastique now) along with Pulse Cannon as an option. And while fighting a healer, losing a couple of procs per fight with HiB could be made up for with the DPS increase you'd get from the random boosted Pulse Cannon and Sticky Grenades.

 

The other option would be to sacrifice the Snare on Gut, but I don't know if I could do that, the utility possibilities with that are just way too good.

 

This is what I'm thinking of.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/vanguard#0-179c6ee92-c1ceif

 

I just really like the idea of having access to every really nice tool in Tactics/Assault, the only thing you miss out on with this is the big burst increases at the top of both trees. But you could apply more consistent pressure than either a full Tactics or full Assault build could.

Edited May 30, 2012 by wadecounty

Quick thought for this build... would you ever consider dropping 1 point from Ionic Accelerator to drop into Pulse Generator? So your 2 main attacks would only have a 30/40% chance to proc it, but PG would enter the equation, and with Explosive Surge you could set up 5 stacks of PG easily before most encounters.

 

With the way its currently bugged for VG's, that means you could open fights with a 50% stronger Sticky (almost as powerful as Assault Plastique now) along with Pulse Cannon as an option. And while fighting a healer, losing a couple of procs per fight with HiB could be made up for with the DPS increase you'd get from the random boosted Pulse Cannon and Sticky Grenades.

 

The other option would be to sacrifice the Snare on Gut, but I don't know if I could do that, the utility possibilities with that are just way too good.

 

This is what I'm thinking of.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/vanguard#0-179c6ee92-c1ceif

 

I just really like the idea of having access to every really nice tool in Tactics/Assault, the only thing you miss out on with this is the big burst increases at the top of both trees. But you could apply more consistent pressure than either a full Tactics or full Assault build could.

 

The build would be too ammo intensive to be having to spam Ion pulse and use pulse cannon. PG and IA should only be used with full 2 points and 3 points (respectively).

The build would be too ammo intensive to be having to spam Ion pulse and use pulse cannon. PG and IA should only be used with full 2 points and 3 points (respectively).

 

The idea wouldn't be to spam for PG procs, but rather to have that as an extra tool working in the background (since its only a 50% chance). The reasoning isn't just for Pulse Cannon either, but to get the boosted Stickies (adds nice burst damage possibilities) and Mortar Volley.

 

Additionally, since PvP is usually based on quick fights with breaks in between, there is usually ample time to set up at least a few stacks of PG before many encounters, meaning you'll often be able to start fights with a boosted sticky and Pulse Cannon.

The idea wouldn't be to spam for PG procs, but rather to have that as an extra tool working in the background (since its only a 50% chance). The reasoning isn't just for Pulse Cannon either, but to get the boosted Stickies (adds nice burst damage possibilities) and Mortar Volley.

 

Additionally, since PvP is usually based on quick fights with breaks in between, there is usually ample time to set up at least a few stacks of PG before many encounters, meaning you'll often be able to start fights with a boosted sticky and Pulse Cannon.

 

Preloading is something I do when I go full assault and I like the idea of it being something your not focused on but when its up use the tool. I just wonder if the decrease in the percent makes too much of a difference on the HIB procs. I would guess it should be fine and worth the tradeoff.

 

After reading the BH forums I think given our current status with the way pg is working I think if correct the slow from the bleed is unnecarsary and actually detrimental because it may overwrite the 50% snare. So you could stick that point in PG for even more use of that tool.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Morath

The build would be too ammo intensive to be having to spam Ion pulse and use pulse cannon. PG and IA should only be used with full 2 points and 3 points (respectively).

 

Actually, it's rather easy on ammo/heat in my experience. The ammo refund from HiB/RS along with the free SS/RP and HiB/RS procs make it easy to keep well within workable parameters for both resources. Considering how much damage is done over time without consuming ammo, you're free to use HS/RS when you go below/above the proper threshold.

 

IA/PPA procs more than you might think with only 2/3 points in the talent. The PG/PFT stacks are built up slower with only 1 point, but with how infrequently you'll have an opportunity to CONSUME* the stacks, you truly have nothing to worry about. This build is all about keeping on the move so PC/FT will only be used when you have 4-5 stacks and there is a large group of people or you have someone on lockdown with a stun/snare to channel 2-3 ticks before they move out of it.

Looks like the point into PG will no longer be necessary or ideal considering the 'fix' to make it not effect Sticky Grenade and MV anymore. The biggest issue here is that they're taking away the glitched utility of it boosting other skills, but haven't stated whether or not the slow is being fixed on PG to balance out this 'nerf.'

Why not just pull the point in hamstring and 1 point in ion acc and get 2 points in pg. The slow from hamstring is redundant with sweltering heat and you are refiring plasma cell with every Ion pulse.

I leveled a PT a little over a month ago running pure Pyro(AS) all the way up and loved it. The high numbers flying across my screen, the insane burst potential, and the ability to take down almost any class before I die to name a few things... but after joining in RWZs, I started to feel a longing for more utility and a team-oriented build rather than just: BURSTDOWNTHISONEGUYASFASTASICAN which was pretty much all I could do as a Pyro. This feeling was amplified by the presence of another better geared Pyro in our RWZ group.

 

I specced back into TV and noticed a slight drop in damage(of course), but I was easily able to keep up with the top DPS in my mathces, even topping the charts when no other Pyros were around(bleh, normals). The major selling point for me is the amount of extra utility and ammo-management I get with this spec. I keep most of the good stuff from AP and am still able to get a majority of what makes Pyro.... well, Pyro.

 

So anyways, I thought I'd revive this thread for some more discussion. Feel free to post constructive replies regarding this spec or any of its variations.

The major selling point for me is the amount of extra utility and ammo-management I get with this spec.

 

I may be missing something obvious but I don't see how this has extra utility (aside from hold the line) or better ammo-management. In fact, I'd think ammo management would be worse in this spec then going all assault with paralytic stims and reduced CD on recharge cells or all tactics with the passive ammo regen and 100% chance to proc free SS instead of 30%.

 

I don't know, we all play differently so if it works for you thats great. But I just don't see what this is besides a lot less useful dps. I guess you can gut and IR as many people as you can and pad numbers but losing a third of your damage potential in assault just for hold the line or lose the added durability and better ammo management in tactics and large pressure dps possibilities in tactics just for IR and an extra unbuffed and neutered HiB every 6 seconds confuses me.

I may be missing something obvious but I don't see how this has extra utility (aside from hold the line) or better ammo-management. In fact, I'd think ammo management would be worse in this spec then going all assault with paralytic stims and reduced CD on recharge cells or all tactics with the passive ammo regen and 100% chance to proc free SS instead of 30%.

 

I don't know, we all play differently so if it works for you thats great. But I just don't see what this is besides a lot less useful dps. I guess you can gut and IR as many people as you can and pad numbers but losing a third of your damage potential in assault just for hold the line or lose the added durability and better ammo management in tactics and large pressure dps possibilities in tactics just for IR and an extra unbuffed and neutered HiB every 6 seconds confuses me.

 

The most useful is, of course, HtL/HO in terms of utility, but there are other benefits of going up the middle tree: Reduced CD on Grapple/Harpoon, reduced CD on CG/ED, reduced CD on Stealth Scan and increased detection(I pick this up in Pyro anyhow), more frequent interrupts, and a slow on Gut/RB. Both IP/FB and Gut/RB have on-call slows in this spec, of 3 and 6 seconds respectively, which lend to better control over the other team in situations where you want to inhibit their transit(in-between doors in VS, protecting nodes, running the huttball, peeling).

 

Resource management is actually great in this spec with how often the free SS/RP and HiB/RS procs pop up. Since so much of your damage is in your DoTs and free procs, there's lots of resource available to use IP/FB without going into the regen danger zone. I believe one of my previous posts in this thread explains all of this in addition to how unnecessary PCS/GAJ is for resource management. The points are better spent in the stealth detection talent imo. The reduction in CD on RC/VH is also negligible if you know how to manage your ammo/heat, even more so if you get the lucky procs. The passive resource restore from HEC/HEGC is pretty pathetic in my experience with running full Tactics/AP. IA/PPA procs more than make up for the passive restore with the added utility and damage that comes from running in PC/CGC.

 

"Less useful DPS," is a pretty harsh way to describe what this spec is capable of. Less bursty DPS, sure, but less useful? Far from it. Pressure is incredibly important in RWZs and that is what this spec is very good at doing. Forcing the healer to focus on cleansing and healing multiple targets is indispensable when trying to take down an organized group as it spreads their effectiveness out enough to give your team an advantage. You can refer to my previous posts for a more in-depth explanation of what this spec excels at.

 

TV puts out much more pressure outside of the 4m range than full Tactics/AP thanks to IR/IM and PC/CGC. That's 2 extra DoTs that can be utilized from up to 30m. Tactics/AP has no way of putting pressure on an opponent without being within 10m and has to be at 4m to use their ONLY DoT. Also the so-called durability boost is pathetic. You have to be stunned to take advantage of the damage reduction in the Tactics/AP tree which renders it useful only in 1v1 situations at best. Most people will time their stuns to the point where they know they can take you down anyways. It also does jack **** when an AS/Pyro stuns you and crits on an AP/TD or HiB/RS. In fact, Pyro has better survivability when it comes to damage reduction than both full Tactics/AP and TV with its reduced CD on Energy Shield. HtL/HO almost makes up for this with mobility often allowing you to get out of harms way and into your healer's line-of-sight. RS may not have the 30% surge boost in this spec, but you've got guaranteed crits of 3-4k when geared which is far from neutered in my honest opinion.

 

I feel like this has become an argument over whether TV is better than Pyro or not, which is simply not my intention. I feel like this spec has its perks, but so do AS/Pyro and Tactics/AP. The reason I have decided to run this spec is because I relate to the play-style more than I do to full versions of those aforementioned specs. The amount of utility along with competitive damage from IA/PPA really meshes with how I like to play. Being able to run circles around someone as you break them down with heavy hitters like HiB/RS and SS/RP all while your DoT's drain their health is so much fun when put into practice.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Grimoir

Grim, I have actually ran into a lot of Vanguards/Powertechs who are running some variation of this and the Maverick. It's extremely effective in the short TTK fights that we are at now. Yes it misses the burst of AP/TD, but the utility makes it a more free roamer. I have several guild PT's who are messing around with it because of how amazing HO is. Those who want the insta gib magic of AP/RS/RP/RS can keep it. We actually have a Maverick (Terminal Velocity) VG, a Pyro VG, and a Norse VG in my guild at this moment.

I ran a spec like this for a long time. It's a good spec. I think Oozo ran a spec like this a while ago as well.

 

Yes, I posted several movies using this basic buiild way back in January. It didn't catch on at the time since people were much more interested in the pure damage from assault and not willing to sacrifice some damage for survivability.

Edited my OP to reflect on your return Oozo. You should definitely name the spec if you haven't already. It'd be cool for the spec to finally get a REAL name, like "Iron Fist" and "Carolina Parakeet," so as to unite the Vanguard/PT community for what to call it haha.

I'll leave it others to give it a name.

 

As Eph mentioned on the other board, it was probably a known build in beta since the main components of the build have remained relatively stable since the game was launched. Kind of cool to see people giving it a shot though.