I am with you on the part of not doing the space missions because, well, in my case i just think they are boring. But I would argue that the P2W doesn't exclude the solo aspect.

 

Pick any solo game you have found at all remotely challenging in the past. Short of cheating your way out of it (cheat codes) or googling for strats, you had to keep trying and/or progressing until you beat the game through either skill, learning, gearing, patience or all of the above. Now say all the sadden the game developer sells the gear needed for you to significantly overcome that challenge. Isn't that P2W? You are paying for a game you already payed in order to win ?

No it is not, because by the very part I bolded, you yourself stated you can beat the game without having to pay. Therefore it is not P2W because you don't have to need to pay in order to beat it.

Unfortunately the UN takes a looooooong time, they said they'd have an offical draft P2W legislation of agreement for discussion by 2015.

 

Until then you'll just have to live with P2W being paying to circumvent gameplay.

No I don't because that is simply your opinion. My opinion differs. Neither of our opinions is factually more accurate or important than the other, therefore, you'll just have to live with P2W being defined as the example of ZT Online.

BJ

Follow with me. Does this system allow you to buy something in the game with real cash that gives you an advantage in gameplay mechanics? If yes, then it's pay to win. Doesn't matter if it's for a small part of the game, doesn't matter if that isn't the end-all-be-all for all your gear. Doesn't matter that you can't get all gear simply by paying. The fact remains there's a way to buy something with real cash to give you an advantage in this game that someone who doesn't spend that cash can't obtain just as quickly.

Not that I agree with P2W, but according to your definition alsmot everything can be considered P2W. Speeders, orange gear shells, heck, whole legacy that can also be umlocked with CC.

I strongly believe that the space fleet comms would have been in the neighborhood of 200-250 fleet comms before they implemented the cash shop. Similarly, I doubt HK-51 would have been 1 million credits for an account unlock before the implementation of the cash shop.

You may be right, I won't argue about something I have no knowledge of (Bioware's pricing strategy). However, I have always found this game to be expensive when it comes to its economy, including legacy unlocks, even before the cash shop, so the 1,000,000 for an account unlock doesn't seem that far out of line. The GTN terminal for our ships was 500,000.

Take 2 accounts with 1,000 credits, and grade 1 ship items and the ability to play 24 hours a day. One account has infinite real life money.

 

Who gets the Ship 7 Upgrades first and therefore can beat those missions first and start earning other things to increase their gear first?

 

Oops... looks like one account has an ADVANTAGE.

No. Not an advantage. Since the Ship Upgrades can be acquired through normal gameplay, the acquisition of the said upgrades is defined by Time. If one account chooses to purchase a Cartel Pack, which is simply a chance to acquire the desired item by the way (there is no guarantee of actually obtaining the specific upgrade you want), they are choosing to acquire the item as a matter of Convenience, not Advantage. The difference in the two is very clear and evident.

Now, if BW had created these Ship Upgrades, and the only way of obtaining the Ship Upgrades was via purchases through the store, then I would agree, it is a clear case of P2W. However, that is not the case. You can't even buy the specific Ship Upgrades that you want, only a chance to possibly acquire one of the upgrades.

Or maybe Pay2Win is a user made term that doesn't have a set meaning, but if someone thinks buying gear to get around content faster it is pay2win, and if a lot of people are thinking this and not liking it then maybe the studio should rethink the direction they're going.

Or, if a bunch of people are thinking it is not and liking the direction they are going because their Time and Choice to play the content in the game they want to play is more important then the disposable cash they have, then maybe the studio should continue in the direction they are going.

Ultimately it will be a battle of opinions because we will likely never have an official definition of what P2W will be (who will be appointed to make said decision? Not the random playerbase, I'll wager but an industry insider who will, because of their position, most likely take the origin of the term into account, which was applied to the Eastern Market MMOs like ZT Online). Therefore, in the end we all have to exercise our Free Will and decide if SWTOR is the game for us or not. Personally, I prefer the convenience of having the option to decide what "content" I will pay for. That way, if my time is limited at some point, I have the choice to buy what I need to play the content I want at that particular point in time, and when I have more time to play, I can acquire what I need through "traditional" gameplay.

BJ

No I don't because that is simply your opinion. My opinion differs. Neither of our opinions is factually more accurate or important than the other, therefore, you'll just have to live with P2W being defined as the example of ZT Online.

 

BJ

Nope, I'll live with P2W being anything that allows you to circumvent gameplay by paying cash to do so.

Nope, I'll live with P2W being anything that allows you to circumvent gameplay by paying cash to do so.

And I will live with P2W being games like ZT Online - which SWTOR is far from being at that point. When it does reach that point, I will simply find something else to play.

BJ

And I will live with P2W being games like ZT Online - which SWTOR is far from being at that point. When it does reach that point, I will simply find something else to play.

 

BJ

I guess that's where we differ, I'd rather try and stop SWTOR devolving to that point, rather than just not bothering, accepting it and then quiting.

We've already established that by your obtuse definition, NO GAME is p2w.

This must be your first F2P rodeo. There are plenty of games out there with shops that fit into the P2W category, LOTRO is one such example. The Cartel Market is not one of them. You need to broaden your MMO and F2P horizons.

Sorry trying to greenwash P2W by trying to change the name will never fly, a very nice try though.

It's not a greenwash. My definition Of P2W is very clear. It's you who are consistently equivocating on your definition.

Simply put, paying for convenience is not paying to win. If paying for convenience is your definition of pay to win, then you should just unsub because the Cartel Market, and every other F2P shop that I can think of in other games, contains items that alleviate the leveling and grinding experience in their game (XP boosts, deed accelerators, gear, etc.).

I think you are wrong on most accounts. If EA/BW were to start selling Dreadguard/EliteWarhero a piece for 300 cc it is definitely P2W, yet according to "your" definitions it is called what P2Convenicence? Really? P2W something only available in store? where are you getting all this stuff? Textbook P2Convenience ? I am sorry but I have to say reading your post actually made me lol.

I'm glad you were amused. I wouldn't consider Dreadguard/EWH gear being made available in the store P2W either. However, it would be absurd and wouldn't make much sense since BW wants endgame players to have something to do and to play that content.

Honestly, the whole Starship Upgrade scenario is a bit absurd in itself. Since the players that run starship missions are a small segment of the population, it seems like more of a test to me by BW/EA than anything else, a guage of how much players will tolerate in regard to the convenience factor. It certainly is on the slippery slope of what players deem acceptable in the store.

However, it's still not P2W.

It's not a greenwash. My definition Of P2W is very clear. It's you who are consistently equivocating on your definition.

Simply put, paying for convenience is not paying to win. If paying for convenience is your definition of pay to win, then you should just unsub because the Cartel Market, and every other F2P shop that I can think of in other games, contains items that alleviate the leveling and grinding experience in their game (XP boosts, deed accelerators, gear, etc.).

It's very much a greenwash, again it was a good one and a nice try, but it just won't work you can't convince people P2W is not P2W just be calling it Pay for Convenience.

P2W is and always will be P2W.

This just comes to show that Bioware just simply LIE.. and... LIE... and... LIE.

One strike closer to me unsubbing just due to the lack of a brain by the Dev team.

This just comes to show that Bioware just simply LIE.. and... LIE... and... LIE.

One strike closer to me unsubbing just due to the lack of a brain by the Dev team.

Can't agree more... I am sorry dev's I do not want to insult you.. But this ... This and the screwed up life day event... Just wow *sigh* You practicly burn your own potential... Just as SWG did with NGE

LOL at the P2W definition wars.

Seriously, this is what you want to discuss?

Get over it. Play the game or play something else that does not offend your sensibilities IMO.

Pages and pages of complaints and QQ is .... just WOW.... really?

For me, i don't care if it's considered p2w or not, i just consider it a disappointment. I actually liked the space missions in this game, but they got boring long ago as they were easy and repetitive, i was looking forward to the new ones. I probably won't be playing them past the bit i played today, for me their difficult enough that i'll definitely need most or all of the grade 7 parts and i have no interest in paying cartel coins for them or the huge grind in fleet comms or credits to get'em off the gtn.

So, i'd say this content was probably aimed at players like me, they just made it inaccessible enough that i'd think a good amount of players like me just won't bother with it.

Have any of you tried the new space missions? They're impossible. I actually bought the packs for my ship to give it the best gear available and after about 10 attempts at one space mission I pretty much am ready to give up.

Hard missions are hard(but doable), just as intended. But it seems we'll soon have waves of people feeling cheated because they were 'tricked' into buying gear that doesn't help them.

I guess that's where we differ, I'd rather try and stop SWTOR devolving to that point, rather than just not bothering, accepting it and then quiting.

Not really. I certainly would voice my opinion if I see it devolving that way as well. I just don't see it at this point in time. I don't call for the Life Guard when all I see is someone who can't swim dipping their toe in the water. I'll look to see how deep the water is and wait until they get a couple of thighs in first before sounding any alarms.

BJ

Oh, fairness, well if that is your goal, good luck. What about the people who have no jobs or work very litle and thus have the time to grind hours upon hours while those of us who go to work a lot can't. Is that fair?

Yes. Because that's what the game is based on. MMOs = the more you grind, the more you obtain. But hey, if they want to turn it into P2W so that people with more money can just obtain everything then that's cool. I'll just unsub. I don't have all the time in the world either (I have a job and a social life), but I'm not going to play a game where it's catering to the rich. I came into this game where there's a salary cap (i.e. your sub fee), but now it's becoming the baseball system. No thanks.

So experience boosts are p2win?

Yes, in a way, but most of the people upset were okay with leveling up going faster as it wasn't competing at end game content. The ship upgrades is end game content.

and how's that a realistic basis for your example?

Swing and a miss. The point being the guy who spends money on Cartel Coins will have an advantage in the game play. Obviously you can't see the forest through the trees.

No it is not, because by the very part I bolded, you yourself stated you can beat the game without having to pay. Therefore it is not P2W because you don't have to need to pay in order to beat it.

 

No I don't because that is simply your opinion. My opinion differs. Neither of our opinions is factually more accurate or important than the other, therefore, you'll just have to live with P2W being defined as the example of ZT Online.

 

BJ

1) ZT Online is not the end-all-be-all definition.

2) This is an MMO, there is not "beating this game". But using real life money to grant you an unfair advantage (instant reception of items that grant you upgrades in terms of game play) is Pay To Win.

Not that I agree with P2W, but according to your definition alsmot everything can be considered P2W. Speeders, orange gear shells, heck, whole legacy that can also be umlocked with CC.

Those are cosmetic and vanity based items. You're right about legacy, to some extent, but most legacy items don't affect endgame play. XP boosts, better social interactions with companions... none of that is endgame. And that's what I was having a problem with... behavior that benefits endgame play.

LOL at the P2W definition wars.

 

Seriously, this is what you want to discuss?

 

Get over it. Play the game or play something else that does not offend your sensibilities IMO.

 

Pages and pages of complaints and QQ is .... just WOW.... really?

Please go away if you're not going to contribute. Why don't you go back to saying something in terms of "bleeding out subs, blah, blah, blah".

Not really. I certainly would voice my opinion if I see it devolving that way as well. I just don't see it at this point in time. I don't call for the Life Guard when all I see is someone who can't swim dipping their toe in the water. I'll look to see how deep the water is and wait until they get a couple of thighs in first before sounding any alarms.

 

BJ

Hmm.......... well if you don't see this as P2W I honestly don't see what you would see as P2W between here and there.

Would you class FP or OP level gear on the Cashshop as P2W for example?

Not really. I certainly would voice my opinion if I see it devolving that way as well. I just don't see it at this point in time. I don't call for the Life Guard when all I see is someone who can't swim dipping their toe in the water. I'll look to see how deep the water is and wait until they get a couple of thighs in first before sounding any alarms.

 

BJ

Bad analogy is bad. I could easily say that I'm calling a Life Guard when I see someone out in the water splashing around crying out for help while you'll only do it when that person is already face down in the water no longer moving.

LOL at the P2W definition wars.

 

Seriously, this is what you want to discuss?

 

Get over it. Play the game or play something else that does not offend your sensibilities IMO.

 

Pages and pages of complaints and QQ is .... just WOW.... really?

So...nothing useful to contribute or on-topic but decided to pop in here anyway. Yup, par for the course from you. Keep it up

I was really looking forward to the new space missions but these ship gear packs ruined the whole update for me. It's not just the new missions, in a sense the whole space subgame is now ruined by being too greedy.

Where is the sense of progress and achievement when you can get the best items for 10 bucks.

This is the first time I've actually considered changing my 6 month sub to something shorter. They promised and promised but its now pretty clear they don't understand where the line should be drawn. This put a serious dent in my faith for the future of the game.