The reverse is unethical: making an earned advantage cash-purchasable.

 

Microtransactions shouldn't be linked to progression and gearing, as a matter of bedrock principle. And, if customer respect were a thing, microtransactions wouldn't exist at all for actively paying subscribers.

This isn't a SP game. The store likely does more business a month than they take in subs, and as much as you're adverse to businesses making money, that's what they're here to do. Like I said, let me know when you can actually buy the gear. Because what you're getting all worked up about doesn't really apply.

Let me guess, you believe that all DLC, no matter when it was made, should be free because you bought the game? You see, there's more going on here than MXTs bad, there are also bad faith actors posting threads against any and all MTXs, and this thread, based on this quote alone, is just that. "We pay a sub, all the stuff in the CS should be free"... That's literally what you just said in this quoted post. No.

"We pay a sub, all the stuff in the CS should be free"... That's literally what you just said in this quoted post. No.

There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

It's a disgrace.

There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

 

It's a disgrace.

I disagree with you on this point.

The Cartel Market is maybe 95% cosmetic stuff that has absolutely no bearing on game play or leveling. Unique armor skins, weapons, mounts, etc. You want shiny stuff, pay for it. I have no problem with that.

The various XP boosts available for cartel coins are a convenience, not required. I also have no problem with that.

They are actually handed out free for some of the early class / story quests...and two PVE space missions (the first time you run them).

Going by the title of this thread, it isn't "progression" that is double monetized, it's the possibility to spend CC to make leveling a tad bit faster that's "monetized" via the cartel market.

Which I also don't have a problem with....because as mentioned, there are xp boosts given out as quest rewards that you can save up and use whenever you want.

I disagree with you on this point.

 

The Cartel Market is maybe 95% cosmetic stuff that has absolutely no bearing on game play or leveling. Unique armor skins, weapons, mounts, etc. You want shiny stuff, pay for it. I have no problem with that.

 

The various XP boosts available for cartel coins are a convenience, not required. I also have no problem with that.

They are actually handed out free for some of the early class / story quests...and two PVE space missions (the first time you run them).

 

Going by the title of this thread, it isn't "progression" that is double monetized, it's the possibility to spend CC to make leveling a tad bit faster that's "monetized" via the cartel market.

 

Which I also don't have a problem with....because as mentioned, there are xp boosts given out as quest rewards that you can save up and use whenever you want.

It's true. I was sorting out cargo bays yesterday, and found that I have 20 toons with at least 14 one hour xp boosts that I got from story content. I know that's where I got them because they're all bound to character. I didn't need them for leveling then, and I don't see needing them for leveling now, or in the future.

Edit: Yep, they're totally evil aren't they?

The great thing about this debate is that it will be resolved conclusively.

Either double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps and/or Tacticals, or they won't.

I bet they will. Through the lens of corporate issue-framing, they've all but confirmed it.

The great thing about this debate is that it will be resolved conclusively.

 

Either double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps and/or Tacticals, or they won't.

 

I bet they will. Through the lens of corporate issue-framing, they've all but confirmed it.

Yep, they've all but confirmed that they're corporate greedy bastards by removing monetization from the game, in the July update. Follow the link in the edit to my previous post.

There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

 

It's a disgrace.

Arbitrary is Arbitrary

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

If you think these are facetious questions, they are not. The line between what should be included with a sub and what shouldn't be is entirely arbitrary--utterly, and completely, arbitrary. And arguments build on arbitrary foundations aren't compelling.

SWTOR Isn't P2W

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't. I've addressed this strawman already:

• Gear isn't required to "win"
  
• Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play
  
• Cosmetic items & consumables are available in a cash shop, but also resellable in game for no real cash outlay
  
• Just by subscribing, one gets 500 (actually 600) CM coins/month
  
• XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game
  
• Earning in-game credits is fairly easy and non-grindy
  

Unintended Consequences

You're also not thinking through all the ramifications of your points. Suppose they did away with XP boosts from the CM, and the only way you could earn them was through playing. What would that do to the player, like me, who has very limited time to play and wishes to accelerate leveling as much as possible? Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to? Should only players with oodles of time be able to accelerate gameplay. Or should XP boosts be eliminated altogether then?

Additionally, if renaming guild ships, or guilds, or legacies/toons, was free and unlimited, what would that do to the game? Have you thought this through? It would be incredibly destabilizing both to active players and on the backend as well. Setting a price for this option makes it so that only those players who are willing to part with something for this option will get to do so -- and incredibly useful and smart gatekeeping mechanic (and remember, the initial name choice is free).

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game

As for the CM itself, every item purchased there can be resold for in-game currency without spending a dime extra of real cash. And there are a number of mechanics in game that make earning credits fairly easy (and for some like me, fun). I get almost every CM item I want from the GTN. If the devs didn't allow this, I would be buying these things of the CM.

Microtransactions in SWTOR are Reasonable

Your general issue is that you don't like microtransactions. Microtransactions are no doubt a scourge on gaming generally. But in this game specifically, they've been handled in a fairly tame and sensible way, balancing legitimate business interests with player-friendly alternatives....

There's literally nothing in the cash shop that should be withheld from a subscriber. Some of it's astoundingly shameful, like pay-walling basic administrative functions ($10.90 to re-name a guild ship?). The gambling products may soon be illegal. And no, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

 

It's a disgrace.

I make on average aroun 15-20m a month from that CC ration you say isn't meaningful.

Arbitrary is Arbitrary

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

 

If you think these are facetious questions, they are not. The line between what should be included with a sub and what shouldn't be is entirely arbitrary--utterly, and completely, arbitrary. And arguments build on arbitrary foundations aren't compelling.

 

SWTOR Isn't P2W

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't. I've addressed this strawman already:

• Gear isn't required to "win"
  
• Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play
  
• Cosmetic items & consumables are available in a cash shop, but also resellable in game for no real cash outlay
  
• Just by subscribing, one gets 500 (actually 600) CM coins/month
  
• XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game
  
• Earning in-game credits is fairly easy and non-grindy
  

 

Unintended Consequences

You're also not thinking through all the ramifications of your points. Suppose they did away with XP boosts from the CM, and the only way you could earn them was through playing. What would that do to the player, like me, who has very limited time to play and wishes to accelerate leveling as much as possible? Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to? Should only players with oodles of time be able to accelerate gameplay. Or should XP boosts be eliminated altogether then?

 

Additionally, if renaming guild ships, or guilds, or legacies/toons, was free and unlimited, what would that do to the game? Have you thought this through? It would be incredibly destabilizing both to active players and on the backend as well. Setting a price for this option makes it so that only those players who are willing to part with something for this option will get to do so -- and incredibly useful and smart gatekeeping mechanic (and remember, the initial name choice is free).

 

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game

As for the CM itself, every item purchased there can be resold for in-game currency without spending a dime extra of real cash. And there are a number of mechanics in game that make earning credits fairly easy (and for some like me, fun). I get almost every CM item I want from the GTN. If the devs didn't allow this, I would be buying these things of the CM.

 

Microtransactions in SWTOR are Reasonable

Your general issue is that you don't like microtransactions. Microtransactions are no doubt a scourge on gaming generally. But in this game specifically, they've been handled in a fairly tame and sensible way, balancing legitimate business interests with player-friendly alternatives....

Not to mention, you are given experience boosts in game like candy. If your smart, you save them till you hit your 40s then use them up (I would recommend popping one before entering a FP. That is MAD exp) to hit max level. It just seems like another p2w rant from the OP because he wants everything in game without paying.

Or guess what, if you don't want to use your CC ration a month to make a ton of credits with the GTN, then use them to by exp boosts.

As for making loot boxes illegal, we will see if that happens, I hope it does. But that will only affect loot boxes with RNG, it has nothing to do with other items in cash shops.

Arbitrary is Arbitrary

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

 

If you think these are facetious questions, they are not. The line between what should be included with a sub and what shouldn't be is entirely arbitrary--utterly, and completely, arbitrary. And arguments build on arbitrary foundations aren't compelling.

 

SWTOR Isn't P2W

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't. I've addressed this strawman already:

• Gear isn't required to "win"
  
• Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play
  
• Cosmetic items & consumables are available in a cash shop, but also resellable in game for no real cash outlay
  
• Just by subscribing, one gets 500 (actually 600) CM coins/month
  
• XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game
  
• Earning in-game credits is fairly easy and non-grindy
  

 

Unintended Consequences

You're also not thinking through all the ramifications of your points. Suppose they did away with XP boosts from the CM, and the only way you could earn them was through playing. What would that do to the player, like me, who has very limited time to play and wishes to accelerate leveling as much as possible? Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to? Should only players with oodles of time be able to accelerate gameplay. Or should XP boosts be eliminated altogether then?

 

Additionally, if renaming guild ships, or guilds, or legacies/toons, was free and unlimited, what would that do to the game? Have you thought this through? It would be incredibly destabilizing both to active players and on the backend as well. Setting a price for this option makes it so that only those players who are willing to part with something for this option will get to do so -- and incredibly useful and smart gatekeeping mechanic (and remember, the initial name choice is free).

 

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game

As for the CM itself, every item purchased there can be resold for in-game currency without spending a dime extra of real cash. And there are a number of mechanics in game that make earning credits fairly easy (and for some like me, fun). I get almost every CM item I want from the GTN. If the devs didn't allow this, I would be buying these things of the CM.

 

Microtransactions in SWTOR are Reasonable

Your general issue is that you don't like microtransactions. Microtransactions are no doubt a scourge on gaming generally. But in this game specifically, they've been handled in a fairly tame and sensible way, balancing legitimate business interests with player-friendly alternatives....

Ok, there's a lot here, so let's recap:

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't.

Let's look where we're at: The devs have announced new end-game gear (Amps) that provides peak performance. They've cynically called it 'optional' and 'not necessary,' while simultaneously downplaying the importance of a gearing system they're aggressively re-monetizing (Command/Renown drops).

There's little doubt double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps, and we'll be left needing two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf our gearing, even after a subscription.

To head off criticism, the corporate communication strategy is pretty clear: highly-monetized end-game gear is framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system. Nothing to see here; move along...

No doubt Amps and Tacticals will be available through other gameplay, but double-boosted Renown drops need only be highly efficient to create a tremendous pay-to-win problem.

XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game:

It doesn't matter if monetized gearing is largely circumventable (a big 'if' for 6.0); its mere existence is a moral problem, and evidence of the abuse we're being groomed for.

Watch the documentary Leaving Neverland; it's an amazing parable about excusing the crossing of bright lines. Microtransactions feed gearing. The bright line has been crossed. When the lights go out, we'll be getting FIFA'd.

Again: Whether it's Michael Jackson, or EA/BioWare, the moral obligation is for powerful people not to solicit inappropriate things from others.

Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play:

Oh boy. Microtransactions feed stat-based gearing. It's the bright line that should never be crossed. Suggesting that obscuring game mechanics make it ok is no different than any other claim that money laundering legitimizes an illicit practice. It doesn't.

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game:

Secondary grinds for anything cash-purchasable aren't game design. They're burdens to incentivize financial transactions, for items that shouldn't be withheld from a subscriber to begin with. No, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to?

You're already paying handsomely. Subscribers should receive the cash-purchasable progression rate. If it's too fast for your playstyle, it could be nerfed for free, with something like the Gree gadget already in-game.

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

There's nothing arbitrary about a subscription. Nothing is free, and I expect to pay for a quality game. The demo ('F2P') version is crippled to incentivize subscriptions, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is monetizing in-game advantages on top of a monetized 'premium' experience.

I have a smaller, but still real concern, with withholding amenities from subscribers, who pay $155.88+ a year, year over year. Needless to say, we're not getting two AAA titles worth of content a year.

Unintended Consequences:

No, there isn't any justification for pay-walling basic account management. It's as shameful as the sale of gambling products.

Ok, there's a lot here, so let's recap:

 

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't.

Let's look where we're at: The devs have announced new end-game gear (Amps) that provides peak performance. They've cynically called it 'optional' and 'not necessary,' while simultaneously downplaying the importance of a gearing system they're aggressively re-monetizing (Command/Renown drops).

 

There's little doubt double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps, and we'll be left needing two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf our gearing, even after a subscription.

 

To head off criticism, the corporate communication strategy is pretty clear: highly-monetized end-game gear is framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system. Nothing to see here; move along...

 

No doubt Amps and Tacticals will be available through other gameplay, but double-boosted Renown drops need only be highly efficient to create a tremendous pay-to-win problem.

 

XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game:

It doesn't matter if monetized gearing is largely circumventable (a big 'if' for 6.0); its mere existence is a moral problem, and evidence of the abuse we're being groomed for.

 

Watch the documentary Leaving Neverland; it's an amazing parable about excusing the crossing of bright lines. Microtransactions feed gearing. The bright line has been crossed. When the lights go out, we'll be getting FIFA'd.

 

Again: Whether it's Michael Jackson, or EA/BioWare, the moral obligation is for powerful people not to solicit inappropriate things from others.

 

Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play:

Oh boy. Microtransactions feed stat-based gearing. It's the bright line that should never be crossed. Suggesting that obscuring game mechanics make it ok is no different than any other claim that money laundering legitimizes an illicit practice. It doesn't.

 

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game:

Secondary grinds for anything cash-purchasable aren't game design. They're burdens to incentivize financial transactions, for items that shouldn't be withheld from a subscriber to begin with. No, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

 

Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to?

You're already paying handsomely. Subscribers should receive the cash-purchasable progression rate. If it's too fast for your playstyle, it could be nerfed for free, with something like the Gree gadget already in-game.

 

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?

There's nothing arbitrary about a subscription. Nothing is free, and I expect to pay for a quality game. The demo ('F2P') version is crippled to incentivize subscriptions, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is monetizing in-game advantages on top of a monetized 'premium' experience.

 

I have a smaller, but still real concern, with withholding amenities from subscribers, who pay $155.88+ a year, year over year. Needless to say, we're not getting two AAA titles worth of content a year.

 

Unintended Consequences:

No, there isn't any justification for pay-walling basic account management. It's as shameful as the sale of gambling products.

So I typed out a really long, point by point reply, and then my router took a dive and had to be reset. However, this whole wall of text can be summed up with one line: "I pay a sub, so everything they ever make for this game should be free, including services that every other MMO charges for" such as name changes. No. A sub does not entitle you to any of these privileges, such as name changes on whatever, or cosmetic armors/mounts/weapons etc. The only thing that does that is your sense of entitlement.

You agree to the terms of the sub when you pay it. How do you come around to the conclusion that you're entitled to anything above and beyond what it's listing? IF you decide that it's not worth the money, there's nobody sitting in your living room with a shot gun, forcing you to pay it. Stop paying, drop back to preferred, and enjoy all those perks you don't get any more. This whole thread is based on "I want everything not covered in my sub for free, and because it's not, it's bad".

So I typed out a really long, point by point reply, and then my router took a dive and had to be reset. However, this whole wall of text can be summed up with one line: "I pay a sub, so everything they ever make for this game should be free, including services that every other MMO charges for" such as name changes. No. A sub does not entitle you to any of these privileges, such as name changes on whatever, or cosmetic armors/mounts/weapons etc. The only thing that does that is your sense of entitlement.

 

You agree to the terms of the sub when you pay it. How do you come around to the conclusion that you're entitled to anything above and beyond what it's listing? IF you decide that it's not worth the money, there's nobody sitting in your living room with a shot gun, forcing you to pay it. Stop paying, drop back to preferred, and enjoy all those perks you don't get any more. This whole thread is based on "I want everything not covered in my sub for free, and because it's not, it's bad".

I characterize my position a little differently:

"I pay $155.88 a year, every year, for a 'Premium' experience. It ought not subject me to pay-to-win transactions, pay-walled account management, withheld amenities, and gambling products."

(written in gold to reflect the divine glow of its truth)

I understand the terms of service. I'd rather advocate for positive change than walk away.

I characterize my position a little differently:

 

"I pay $155.88 a year, every year, for a 'Premium' experience. It ought not subject me to pay-to-win transactions, pay-walled account management, withheld amenities, and gambling products."

(written in gold to reflect the divine glow of its truth)

 

I understand the terms of service. I'd rather advocate for positive change than walk away.

"Gimme gimme gimme" isn't positive change. The premium experience that you are entitled to is laid out in the sub details. Again, there is no P2W, you can achieve anything that someone buying the boosts can, w/out spending a dime, even under the current system, where the end game boosts are available for in game currency, from an in game vendor, as well as physically dropping from the crates, meaning one can procure these items w/out any MTXs at all.

Your account management should never be free, at least in regard to changing a name, or transfers, or what have you. True story, you're not subjected to gambling products. I don't even use the sub stipend to purchase the loot crates, and it hasn't adversely affected my gameplay at all. So you say "divine truth", and I say "attempting to impersonate staff".

"Gimme gimme gimme" isn't positive change. The premium experience that you are entitled to is laid out in the sub details. Again, there is no P2W, you can achieve anything that someone buying the boosts can, w/out spending a dime, even under the current system, where the end game boosts are available for in game currency, from an in game vendor, as well as physically dropping from the crates, meaning one can procure these items w/out any MTXs at all.

 

Your account management should never be free, at least in regard to changing a name, or transfers, or what have you. True story, you're not subjected to gambling products. I don't even use the sub stipend to purchase the loot crates, and it hasn't adversely affected my gameplay at all. So you say "divine truth", and I say "attempting to impersonate staff".

Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.

(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)

Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

 

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

 

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.

(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)

I see, playing the game is irrelevant. This is your "secondary grind" after all, since the required currencies to purchase these items in game come from playing the game as intended. That's sort of revealing, isn't it. So I logged in and played around for about 3 hours yesterday, and never once had my gameplay impacted by the loot crates being in the store. My repair droid didn't suddenly start charging more for repairs, and travel didn't suddenly quadruple in price. The perks from my Legacy didn't suddenly quadruple in price either, so loot boxes being in the store had literally 0 impact on me. It impacts you because of exactly "gimme", since you believe you're entitled to those items for free.

Again, "But I pay a sub, those items should be free to me" isn't "ethics reform", it's "gimme". Insisting that you're entitled to more than what's listed on the page as perks for your sub isn't ethics reform, in fact, I'd say that's pretty unethical; you agree to Terms and Conditions, and then insist that it's not fair, trying to manipulate the system so you can get your stuff for free.

Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

 

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

 

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.

(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)

Just because you decide to put something in gold text doesn't make it true.

Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

 

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

 

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.

(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)

So...... by your logic, since someone using an XP boost is advantage-producing (Even though crates have already been said to be a SUPPLEMENTARY method to gear, not the primary as you are trying to make them.......unless of course you have no friends and can't get into any of the end-game content because everyone has put you on ignore for some reason I honestly can't phathom at this point) then what about people that put in more time? That is advantage producing as well, and as we all know.... time is money my friend.

So, I agree with you 10000000%. We need to stop the sale of XP boosts, and people are only allowed to play 3 hours a week because that is all I have time to play and anything more than that 3 hours is advantage-producing. I pay the same amount a month as them but don't get the amount of time to put in.

I characterize my position a little differently:

 

"I pay $155.88 a year, every year, for a 'Premium' experience. It ought not subject me to pay-to-win transactions, pay-walled account management, withheld amenities, and gambling products."

(written in gold to reflect the divine glow of its truth)

 

I understand the terms of service. I'd rather advocate for positive change than walk away.

The only way it would be P2W is this: I pay BW $100 and I get a full set of Max ilevel gear in my inventory.

Paying to speed up a grind is not mandatory, it is an option only. You are not required to purchase XP boosts (I know I won't since I get so many of them from the class stories for FREE). I don't feel compelled to use 2 XP buffs at all. I'll still get geared out regardless.

And as someone else said, Galactic Renown is meant as a Supplementary Gearing system. You'll still get gear from doing Operations, Unranked PvP, and Ranked PvP.

Wow everyone bit this bait hook, line and sinker. What it comes down to is that a couple of posters don't want a CM, that someway in their minds it is P2W. The will keep baiting this and people keep replying. The real question you need to ask yourself is if you believe or don't believe that the game is worth the sub, with the availability of the cash shop (because if you think its going anywhere your sadly mistaken. This is EA people). Or, that the month sub isn't worth it, and move on.

But this horse has been dead for days, it is really starting to stink up the place...

Personally, I am fine with the CM, it is all vanity crap, and if your smart you can make 10-15m just off the 500cc you get each month. I get to just play the game because I don't chase after credits because of this. But I suppose they will try to say that I am P2W because I don't have to spend all my time sniffing up creds in game because of how I use my monthly CC, who knows.....maybe I am an exploiter!

Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

 

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

 

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.

(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)

holy flat earth anti-vax Batman, there are more conspiracy theories in here than ive seen all year

I see, playing the game is irrelevant. This is your "secondary grind" after all, since the required currencies to purchase these items in game come from playing the game as intended. That's sort of revealing, isn't it. So I logged in and played around for about 3 hours yesterday, and never once had my gameplay impacted by the loot crates being in the store. My repair droid didn't suddenly start charging more for repairs, and travel didn't suddenly quadruple in price. The perks from my Legacy didn't suddenly quadruple in price either, so loot boxes being in the store had literally 0 impact on me. It impacts you because of exactly "gimme", since you believe you're entitled to those items for free.

 

Again, "But I pay a sub, those items should be free to me" isn't "ethics reform", it's "gimme". Insisting that you're entitled to more than what's listed on the page as perks for your sub isn't ethics reform, in fact, I'd say that's pretty unethical; you agree to Terms and Conditions, and then insist that it's not fair, trying to manipulate the system so you can get your stuff for free.

"Are pay-pay-to-win transactions present?" is a yes or no question. The presence of secondary grinds are, in fact, irrelevant to that question.

Also, the degree to which secondary grinds are offsetting isn't a very interesting question for two reasons:

1. The bright line of monetized progression is a moral problem, regardless of degree

2. Once crossed, the creep only goes one way: toward getting FIFA'd in the dark.

We should care about principles.

(love the divine glow of all that truth!)

Oh, and gambling products: They exact an opportunity cost, whether we buy them or not. We're all stuck in an ecosystem with unethical practices. See the radiant truth above.

"Are pay-pay-to-win transactions present?" is a yes or no question. The presence of secondary grinds are, in fact, irrelevant to that question.

Stopped reading right there. What is it, exactly, you're winning if you're not playing the game? P2W mechanics do not exist, I've played games with P2W, and this isn't one of them. It's a catch phrase, meant to inspire negative emotions, but is irrelevant to this game. You be sure to let me know when the only way to obtain skills on level ups is loot crates, or when you can actually go to a page in the store to buy the end game armors, mods and enhancements. Because until then, you're getting a 2/10 on the troll meter, and that only because I'm bored and responding.

"But we have to change the meaning of the terms to fit my argument" is next, I can smell it coming a mile away, and no, we don't. As we can see from the current flurry of responses, P2W has a specific meaning, and a connotation tied to that meaning that you're trying to exploit because you don't understand, or won't accept what we've been told is the case with this new system.

Stopped reading right there. What is it, exactly, you're winning if you're not playing the game? P2W mechanics do not exist, I've played games with P2W, and this isn't one of them. It's a catch phrase, meant to inspire negative emotions, but is irrelevant to this game. You be sure to let me know when the only way to obtain skills on level ups is loot crates, or when you can actually go to a page in the store to buy the end game armors, mods and enhancements. Because until then, you're getting a 2/10 on the troll meter, and that only because I'm bored and responding.

 

"But we have to change the meaning of the terms to fit my argument" is next, I can smell it coming a mile away, and no, we don't. As we can see from the current flurry of responses, P2W has a specific meaning, and a connotation tied to that meaning that you're trying to exploit because you don't understand, or won't accept what we've been told is the case with this new system.

I've already defined pay-to-win microtransactions, correctly.

I recommend reading the rest of the post.

I've already defined pay-to-win microtransactions, correctly.

 

I recommend reading the rest of the post.

When you start out with a fallacy, all conclusions drawn from it will, by definition, also be fallacies.