As for the claims the devs make, I'd like to see their proof. I'm not going to take their word for it. We have no idea whatsoever that vague statement means. I want graphs, I want video, I want proof positive that their Operatives are so Godly compared to us poor fools on these forums who need to 'L2P' before I'm willing to concede that everyone here is just terrible. I, by the way, raid hardmode content as a Med-specced Operative. Successfully. But, every time I raid, I can't help but feel that I'm just not doing as much as I could be. As much as my Sorcerer buddy is capable of. And that is a problem.

Numbers can't measure player psychology. I can actually believe numerically they feel operatives are where they wanted us. The fact is psychologically when it amtters we always feel behind, factually we know we'ld have far more utility and healing capacity as a sorc. And the duality of that is I think the most maddening. OK if my healing isn't as powerful shouldn't I be the better jack of all trades? Nope you aren't....

numbers don't and can't measure psychology and right now Operatives spend mass points to barely passably do their job while working hard at doing their job while not having additive utility from those points.

Based on what the devs are saying, the problem is not so much Operative healers needing to be carried through content by the rest of the group as it is bad dps needing to be carried through content by healers.

Raids that insist on Sorc/Sage healers are basically admitting that they are incapable of executing cleanly on encounters.

Based on what the devs are saying, the problem is not so much Operative healers needing to be carried through content by the rest of the group as it is bad dps needing to be carried through content by healers.

 

Raids that insist on Sorc/Sage healers are basically admitting that they are incapable of executing cleanly on encounters.

Part of a healer's job has always been "screw-up recovery." Someone will always move half a second too slow, tab target to the wrong thing, be slow on an add pickup...any of these things can cause problems with the execution of the fight. A healer needs to be able to deal with the damage that would be coming in, plus have some tools for correcting the occasional imperfect performance because, as humans, none of us are perfect.

Right now, the Sage has, hands down, the most tools for that job.

1. They can pull a friendly target out of a bad situation, whether that is standing in fire, melee range of a mob that has turned on them, or some unique fight mechanic. No other healer can match that.
    
   
2. The have an instant HoT that has an initial heal, with a 6s cooldown. Commandos have a 21s cooldown on an instant heal with no HoT. Scoundrels have a very weak instant with no cooldown but that needs UH to be cast, or an instant HoT that is very weak and not an emergency tool.
    
   
3. They have an instant cast shield that prevents ability pushback and fully absorbs incoming damage. Commandos have a 10% DR shield, that requires burning a cooldown, then activating the button for their AoE, then targeting that AoE on the ground near the person, and then hoping it applies to who they want since it doesn't have smart healing. Scoundrels have nothing of the sort (that I'm aware of).
    
   
4. Sages have a speed boost when they apply their shield, which means if someone is slow to get out of fire, they can shield them to prevent damage and also help them get out of the bad faster. No other class has anything of the sort.
   

Commandos have some great tools for single-target healing, and some nice buffs on some of their abilities, like an Armor buff on AP (which Sages also get but Scoundrels dont), and their healing buff to three random people when they AoE (unique). Even so, as the better of the non-Sage classes, they still lack any remarkable "screw-up correction" abilities. Scoundrels are even worse off.

You may be right. It may be that all of the healers put out enough HPS to get by with perfect group execution, but only the Sage has all of the tools needed to correct for imperfect execution, and Commandos have enough HPS to simply bull through it, but Scoundrels are left hoping that no one ever makes a mistake.

You may be right. It may be that all of the healers put out enough HPS to get by with perfect group execution, but only the Sage has all of the tools needed to correct for imperfect execution, and Commandos have enough HPS to simply bull through it, but Scoundrels are left hoping that no one ever makes a mistake.

This is accurate, though I still firmly believe that all healers should be competitive, regardless of circumstance. Even so, I think it's unreasonable to expect that people will never make mistakes. Even the greatest players make mistakes, especially when they're learning the content. And no, the Op/Scoundrel really has no way to make up for people making mistakes besides hoping that if someone does take avoidable damage, that it doesn't immediately kill them or that they're not going to be pummeled in between when they've taken damage and when the Op/Scoundrel can get a heal off.

It's not a good place to start to assume Operatives/Scoundrels are fine just because they can complete content with enough effort/error correction and a group that never makes mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. It doesn't matter how good a player is, their performance is not perfect all day, every day. And then the Operative/Scoundrel is left holding the bag... Things can go very wrong, very quickly. This is even more obvious when the person who makes that mistake is your Sorcerer healer buddy. When the one person who makes up for your glaring deficiencies is dead.. Healing the raid becomes a lot more "interesting".

Oh, and RuQu, I don't think you're the one making these assumptions. I just used your quote to express why I think people who do are wrong.

Everyone makes mistakes. It doesn't matter how good a player is, their performance is not perfect all day, every day.

And here I thought that things like "Hard Mode" and "Nightmare Mode" were meant to expose exactly these mistakes and reward that perfect execution where the whole team is in the zone and not relying on a single member of the 16 to pull them out of the fire ... but I will concede that for us healers, the zone is exactly those situations where you can (and do) save people in those situations.

I dunno ... I can understand how, next to a Sorcerer it is easy to feel inadequate. But having played both, there is a reason why I'm leaning toward the more dynamic and challenging class to master.

I really do understand what you guys are saying, and I agree that there is room for improvement in class balance (personally I think this should come in the form of a nerf to Sorcerer healing). What I don't want is for everyone to be buffed to WotLK power levels where you can face-roll all the content with a raid full of 2-button spamming fire-fodder.

All I ask is that we try to keep the feedback positive and constructive.

And here I thought that things like "Hard Mode" and "Nightmare Mode" were meant to expose exactly these mistakes and reward that perfect execution where the whole team is in the zone and not relying on a single member of the 16 to pull them out of the fire ... but I will concede that for us healers, the zone is exactly those situations where you can (and do) save people in those situations.

 

I dunno ... I can understand how, next to a Sorcerer it is easy to feel inadequate. But having played both, there is a reason why I'm leaning toward the more dynamic and challenging class to master.

 

I really do understand what you guys are saying, and I agree that there is room for improvement in class balance (personally I think this should come in the form of a nerf to Sorcerer healing). What I don't want is for everyone to be buffed to WotLK power levels where you can face-roll all the content with a raid full of 2-button spamming fire-fodder.

 

All I ask is that we try to keep the feedback positive and constructive.

A very large amount of our feedback has been exceptionally constructive. Positive, though? I'm not sure I understand the positive aspect? That said, as for WotLK content... I suppose that depends on the content you were running. If you were pushing heroic mode content in a progression raid, it was not face-roll two button spam. Running five-man heroics? Sure. Absolutely. But, the actual hardcore raid content was not face-roll, nor could you get by pressing a mere two buttons, no matter what class you were.

I currently raid hardmode content as an Operative. That said, I've had people die or take avoidable damage on boss fights that were completed successfully. I don't think there's an expectation that you can't make a single mistake or you automatically fail. Nightmare mode closes that gap even farther, and makes an underwhelming class stand out, one that can't perform to the level of a class that fulfills the same role. Don't mistake me, either.

There are a number of people who just howl and wail about how terrible the class is without suggestions of how to fix it, or why it is they feel that way. But, there are a much larger number of people who have offered feedback on exactly what the problem is, and ways to correct it. You have, however, come to a forum that has been waiting amidst dev silence for well over a month. It's more than a little understandable that some of us are just tired of sitting on our hands and being polite. It hasn't gotten us anywhere, despite loads of threads that are helpful in nature, and not derogatory at all.

I've said it before, current end0game PvE difficulty is a joke. Joke City even.

That's not a criticism of Bioware mind you, that they've made end-game PvE accessible to all level of players is nice (think back to vanilla WoW 40-man Molten Core . . . it was difficult just to get the people needed to walk into the door).

But Nightmare is already tough enough to expose the flaws of the Operative/Scoundrel class; the amount of incoming damage during the boss encounters shows just how poorly executed the class is in comparison to the Sorcerer/Sage healer. What more, the Operations content in 1.2 is bound to be more difficult (e.g. if Operative/Scoundrels have trouble clearing Nightmare now, I would expect them to have a problem on Hard in the 1.2 content).

Sure, an exceptionally skilled Operative/Scoundrel can succeed in Nightmare - it won't be fun, but it can be done - when paired with an equally skilled Sorcerer/Sage. I've also heard claims of outlier healing pairs, but without confirmation or the circumstances of those groups (exceptionally geared, skilled, previously cleared etc.) they are neither credible on their face nor are they actually valuable in refuting the fact that in literally every PvE situation, the group would be better served taking a Sorcerer/Sage

You don't lose anything when you leave an Operative/Scoundrel healer on the bench - there is nothing they can do that would give the group any sort of competitive advantage in approaching or clearing content - and that is the problem, because the group does lose something by not choosing to take a second Sorcerer/Sage.

I agree completely, having lvled a sage from my operative main just this night.

bump.

In WoW there were definitive tools to measure peoples performance. SWTOR theorycrafting is all based on conjecture.

WoW makes heavy use of theorycrafting too, there's just tools to compare the theory to the actual numbers in a real scenario. Just because SW:TOR doesn't allow you to test it in an actual fight (but the actual numbers are easily checked by use abilities and seeing what you get) doesn't mean they're not valid.

Spec and play how you like. If your raid is failing and is somehow able to prove that it's your fault, try tweaking your spec, or try a different play-style ... don't come crying to the forums.

That's like saying tweak your spec if you are unable to tank bosses as a vanilla feral druid. If the tools aren't there, it's not happening.

The devs have stated that all content *can* be cleared with any of the advanced classes. Until someone can prove categorically that this is not possible, experiment, have FUN, stop expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter.

The very same devs that didn't notice the dozen of bugs I noticed in my very first run through an operation? Yeah I'll take their word for it. They seem to have put a lot of testing into this.

This is what killed WoW for the people that enjoyed the challenge of wiping for 3 weeks on a single boss in AQ40 ...

Just so you know current WoW actually has bosses that are harder than AQ40 bosses were, but don't let logic get in the way of rose colored glasses.

Finally, any experienced progression raider will tell you that skill > power. It's no good healing for 1000000hps if you die 3 seconds into the fight from standing in the fire.

Any experienced raider will tell you that right now the people in very top end guilds have multiple geared alts and they are very much willing to stack said alts if it will give them a significant advantage on a boss fight.

If these guilds were in SW:TOR, and the content was actually challenging, these guilds would have long told all their BH and OP healers to reroll sorc.

Any experienced raider will tell you that right now the people in very top end guilds have multiple geared alts and they are very much willing to stack said alts if it will give them a significant advantage on a boss fight.

 

If these guilds were in SW:TOR, and the content was actually challenging, these guilds would have long told all their BH and OP healers to reroll sorc.

Very true. When Paragon got their world first Heroic Ragnaros kill, they did so with 7 Balance druids in a 25 man group. The stacking of druids was so OP in that fight that Blizzard had to nerf Moonfire in response.

Progression guilds don't care about the character, they care about 'progression' at all costs. They will rotate in alts between bosses, sit out players, whatever it takes for the team to succeed and get that content cleared, preferably before anyone else in the world or on their server.

Most raiding guilds are more relaxed than that, and they tend to only be able to gear 1-2 characters per player, and expect that any properly specced and geared character can fill their assigned role in the trinity.

1. They can pull a friendly target out of a bad situation, whether that is standing in fire, melee range of a mob that has turned on them, or some unique fight mechanic. No other healer can match that.
    
   
2. The have an instant HoT that has an initial heal, with a 6s cooldown. Commandos have a 21s cooldown on an instant heal with no HoT. Scoundrels have a very weak instant with no cooldown but that needs UH to be cast, or an instant HoT that is very weak and not an emergency tool.
    
   
3. They have an instant cast shield that prevents ability pushback and fully absorbs incoming damage. Commandos have a 10% DR shield, that requires burning a cooldown, then activating the button for their AoE, then targeting that AoE on the ground near the person, and then hoping it applies to who they want since it doesn't have smart healing. Scoundrels have nothing of the sort (that I'm aware of).
    
   
4. Sages have a speed boost when they apply their shield, which means if someone is slow to get out of fire, they can shield them to prevent damage and also help them get out of the bad faster. No other class has anything of the sort.
   

 

Commandos have some great tools for single-target healing, and some nice buffs on some of their abilities, like an Armor buff on AP (which Sages also get but Scoundrels dont), and their healing buff to three random people when they AoE (unique). Even so, as the better of the non-Sage classes, they still lack any remarkable "screw-up correction" abilities. Scoundrels are even worse off.

Yes, Sages have a big toolkit, but some of these on your list are simply nice to haves and not game-changing by any means.

Number 1 - HIGHLY situational. In most cases it's better off to shield/heal them and let them keep DPSing. If it's melee yanking them out over healing them is only to ever be used if it's the only thing that will save their life, and 9 times out of 10 you're better off blowing that GCD on a heal.

Number 2 - The so-called "Uber" Sage instant is ~1400-1600 HP front loaded only if it crits (In a mix of columi/rakata gear). Normally it's about 600-800 front-end with a 300-350 every 3 seconds over time. On a person with 15K+ HP it's not even noticable when it goes off. Also, not life saving if someone is being focused down. You're better off casting a big heal (1.5-2.5 sec cast depending on the heal)

I'll give you number 3, it can save lives, but also doesn't give HP back so you still need to decide if it's better to shield or heal.

I wouldn't call number 4 a bonus. You need to spec into it, and your points are better spent elsewhere increaseing your base healing, or adding to your shield. 10% run speed buff means nothing compared to where your points should be spent.. If you really need to get someone out that bad you revert to number 1. You don't need to rely on the other player paying attention that way.

I wouldn't call number 4 a bonus. You need to spec into it, and your points are better spent elsewhere increaseing your base healing, or adding to your shield. 10% run speed buff means nothing compared to where your points should be spent.. If you really need to get someone out that bad you revert to number 1. You don't need to rely on the other player paying attention that way.

I wish I had a healing tree where a run speed skill isn't considered worthwhile compared to all the other great skills.

Just goes to show the massive dearth in quality between the Medic and Corruption tree.

I'll give you number 3, it can save lives, but also doesn't give HP back so you still need to decide if it's better to shield or heal.

That kinda sums up the whole post for me. As an operative I do not have any options at all beside healing. I can't pull, I can't shield and I can't apply frontload healing and hots at the same time.

I wish I had a healing tree where a run speed skill isn't considered worthwhile compared to all the other great skills.

 

Just goes to show the massive dearth in quality between the Medic and Corruption tree.

The sheild increase isn't part of the healing tree, it's tier 2 of the telekenetic (DPS) tree which means you need to spend 7 points to get it (5 to get to the skill and 2 to cap it out)

and the 10% buff is for 6 seconds (Capped) when you cast armor, not a perma increase while FA is active. That's why you're better spending those points elsewhere. like increasing willpower by 6% (Out of another DPS tree, not healing tree)

Also, more skills doesn't always = better. you still need to proactively chose what to cast on who and when so you can optimize force which has the lowest regen rate unless you try to stick to a force positive rotation which can in most cases kill your group/raid on hard content. We can burst, but we can't burst forever, and running out of power is still a real threat unless you and your raid are paying attention.

Yes, Sages have a big toolkit, but some of these on your list are simply nice to haves and not game-changing by any means.

...

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but that's what makes them utility abilities and not core heals.

You talk about not needing the speed boost on Force Armor because you can just use the pull ability. If you have redundant utility, why was it not spread around? I'm sure Scoundrels would love to have Emergency Medpac apply a run speed boost (cause, you know, when ya gotta go ya gotta go).

And the larger toolkit doesn't just apply to their utility abilities.

The power of Salvation vs Kolto Bomb or Kolto Cloud has been examined to death.

They have the standard two tier heal setup: big, slow and efficient vs weak, fast, and expensive. If they have the time, they case Deliverance, if not you zip off a quick Benevolence (or you would if the utility of Force Armor didn't make it a better bet for that 1.5s).

Commandos have no fast heal. Our fastest heal is Adv Probe, but AP is on a 9s cooldown and part of the core rotation, so is generally not available. Likewise, Bacta Infusion is instant, but because it is free it is kept on cooldown (21s) to help keep up healing while maintaining high ammo. If someone needs a fast heal right now, we have no "oh crap, guess I'll pay for this expensive ability to save them" heal. Neither do Scoundrels, as the closest they have to match that is Kolto Pack, which requires both Energy and a stack of UH. Instead these two classes are forced to stack alacrity to get their heals fast enough to meet that need, but that makes all of their heals, all the time, less resource efficient. All due to the lack of a basic tool.

The sheild increase isn't part of the healing tree, it's tier 2 of the telekenetic (DPS) tree which means you need to spend 7 points to get it (5 to get to the skill and 2 to cap it out)

and the 10% buff is for 6 seconds (Capped) when you cast armor, not a perma increase while FA is active. That's why you're better spending those points elsewhere. like increasing willpower by 6% (Out of another DPS tree, not healing tree)

 

Also, more skills doesn't always = better. you still need to proactively chose what to cast on who and when so you can optimize force which has the lowest regen rate unless you try to stick to a force positive rotation which can in most cases kill your group/raid on hard content. We can burst, but we can't burst forever, and running out of power is still a real threat unless you and your raid are paying attention.

It's only a 2pt talent to increase Force Armor. Or were you passing on the extra 100 Force and 9% cost reduction to all abilities?

This build gets you willpower, extra force, 9% cost reduction, speed boost, and armor boost. All you pass on is 4% reduced damage to yourself (Commandos commonly skip the same) and the debuff removal buff (again often skipped by Commandos).

You are right, more skills are not always better. There is such a thing as too much food as well, but good luck using that argument to get a starving man to stop eyeing your second footlong sub.

Also, more skills doesn't always = better. you still need to proactively chose what to cast on who and when so you can optimize force which has the lowest regen rate unless you try to stick to a force positive rotation which can in most cases kill your group/raid on hard content. We can burst, but we can't burst forever, and running out of power is still a real threat unless you and your raid are paying attention.

You say that like choice is a bad thing.

I would love to be able to choose what skills to use and when to use them - it might actually bring the Medic skill-cap out of the gutter. Currently, the my toolbox feels like it belongs to a non-heal spec hybrid.

Also, if you feel running out of resource is a 'threat', then wow...just wow. Try having it be an almost certainty if things don't go exactly as planned.

I'm just still in awe that this thread is still going. The imbalance in healing, on every level (be it raw output or utility), is so obvious and its effect is so noticeable (Medics are all but extinct) that anyone who possibly tries arguing against it must be willfully ignorant to the game they're playing.

It's only a 2pt talent to increase Force Armor. Or were you passing on the extra 100 Force and 9% cost reduction to all abilities?

 

This build gets you willpower, extra force, 9% cost reduction, speed boost, and armor boost. All you pass on is 4% reduced damage to yourself (Commandos commonly skip the same) and the debuff removal buff (again often skipped by Commandos).

 

You are right, more skills are not always better. There is such a thing as too much food as well, but good luck using that argument to get a starving man to stop eyeing your second footlong sub.

Yes, FA increase is only 2 point talent, but I was pointing out it's not part of the healing tree, it's in the DPS tree in the 2nd tier, so you need to spend 5 points in that tree to get to the 2nd tier, then 2 more to cap out the talent.

Just stating it's not part of the healing tree is all. Like all other healing classes we're better off spending points outside the healing tree than using it on abilities in our healing tree that most will consider a waste of points.

Yes, FA increase is only 2 point talent, but I was pointing out it's not part of the healing tree, it's in the DPS tree in the 2nd tier, so you need to spend 5 points in that tree to get to the 2nd tier, then 2 more to cap out the talent.

 

Just stating it's not part of the healing tree is all. Like all other healing classes we're better off spending points outside the healing tree than using it on abilities in our healing tree that most will consider a waste of points.

That's standard though. Commandos take a skill in the second tier of Gunnery for 3% extra crit, and often one to reduce the cost of a dps ability (making it free if we use another cooldown), and many take points in the third tree as well.

Calling it a 7 point talent when the 5 prereqs are all obvious choices and part of the standard cookie cutter build falsely inflates the cost. In fact, you would get the Force Armor boost no matter what, and the question becomes to take 1 of the two points out of the speed boost for Restoration or not.

You say that like choice is a bad thing.

 

I would love to be able to choose what skills to use and when to use them - it might actually bring the Medic skill-cap out of the gutter. Currently, the my toolbox feels like it belongs to a non-heal spec hybrid.

 

Also, if you feel running out of resource is a 'threat', then wow...just wow. Try having it be an almost certainty if things don't go exactly as planned.

 

I'm just still in awe that this thread is still going. The imbalance in healing, on every level (be it raw output or utility), is so obvious and its effect is so noticeable (Medics are all but extinct) that anyone who possibly tries arguing against it must be willfully ignorant to the game they're playing.

I'm in no way arguing that Merc/Com, Ops/Sc healing need love, and they've already stated that "Changes are coming". I'm just trying to point out that it's not all sunshine and lollypops on the Sage either. ESPECIALLY on the AE healing side. I personally think the Sage AE is completely OP compared to the others, but if we can't stop for 2 seconds to cast it we're as SOL as you are.

And Yes, sometimes too much choice is a bad thing, with the long cast times and cooldowns in our kit, blowing a GCD on utility instead of a heal can be the difference between sucess and failure. If we're in a situation where we are constantly on the run, we have 2 options. Bubble (which doesn't give back HP) and a Hot with a 6sec cooldown. They sound awesome in theory, but try running Mentor in Directive 7 HM as a sage and compare that to a Merc and let me know how it works out.

As for going out of power. When it happens on a sage it will stop you dead in your tracks with NOTHING to get you back. If we Sac without Resplendance we can easily kill our selves if there's AE damage, and it slows our regen even further. We have to blow 3 gcd's to get power back and that's only when we crit on healing trance. Even with conveyance buff its still possible to not crit on healing trance. Both Merc/Com, Ops/Sc have emergencies in these situations that the Sorc/Sage does not.

Anyhow.. I'm not trying to say that we don't have tools that others do not, I'm just trying to point out that even with these tools we still have our issues, and one of them being too many tools. I also think the other two healing classes need boosts in some areas to help with AE healing, but Merc/Com are still the strongest single target healers in the game and Ops/Sc probably have the most issues that need to be addressed.

Look, I'm sorry to be such a dick, because you seem like a nice fellow/gal. But your brand of bandwagoning can't fly; the problems with the Mercenary/Commando and Operative/Scoundrel classes is that they pale in comparison to the Sorcerer/Sage; allowing you to make up reasons why the Sorcerer/Sage is broken too detracts from that message, especially when the things you are saying are flatout wrong.

but if we can't stop for 2 seconds to cast it we're as SOL as you are.

That's a pretty silly example, given that 2s isn't really that much of a stop investment. If you can't stand still for 2s, you need to reevaluate how you got into that situation, not remark on the cast time of the admittedly OP AoE heal.

And Yes, sometimes too much choice is a bad thing

Is this the "mo' money mo' problems" argument? Because that's my fav. "IF ONLY I didn't have so much money, I could lead a simpler, happier life." S/He remarked while licking caviar off of a gold bar.

see also: IF ONLY I didn't have so much water in this desert!

with the long cast times and cooldowns in our kit, blowing a GCD on utility instead of a heal can be the difference between sucess and failure.

Oh woe is you, ye who must suffer the ignominy of having a "kit" of abilities from hence to choose! If only ye hadsth learned two play, if only, alas.

If we're in a situation where we are constantly on the run, we have 2 options. Bubble (which doesn't give back HP) and a Hot with a 6sec cooldown. They sound awesome in theory, but try running Mentor in Directive 7 HM as a sage and compare that to a Merc and let me know how it works out.

I . . . I actually don't know where to start.

1. Please detail a single instance in difficult content (FYI the one you cited is a joke, just like all non-NM content, l2p) where you do not have time to stop and cast for 1.5 - 2 seconds for an extended period of time (12s minimum).
   
2. Your "bubble doesn't give back HP" comments are funny. Damage Mitigation is (literally) always preferable to Health Restoration. The fact that you can instantly mitigate 4k damage means the ability to keep people on the brink of death alive.
   
3. Regarding your HM difficulties (I lol'd a little in my mouth): You mean the Merc that has an instant cast on 21s CD, and is otherwise a real serious plant & cast healer? If you can't clear all of the content in the game without flying through it, that's your ability as a player showing, not any deficiency in your class.
   

As for going out of power. When it happens on a sage it will stop you dead in your tracks with NOTHING to get you back. If we Sac without Resplendance we can easily kill our selves if there's AE damage, and it slows our regen even further. We have to blow 3 gcd's to get power back and that's only when we crit on healing trance. Even with conveyance buff its still possible to not crit on healing trance. Both Merc/Com, Ops/Sc have emergencies in these situations that the Sorc/Sage does not.

Not true.

Mercenary/Commando and Operative/Scoundrel healers have an emergency button that jump starts our energy given that, when we have low levels of energy, it can take up to 21 seconds for us to be able to cast a heal again.

You don't get one of those because you have a fixed resource return rate and a talent that allows you to burn through a very powerful healing rotation for 0 force cost.

Also, lets play a game called math:

40% base crit rate + 25% crit boost from Conveyance = 65% crit chance per tick

3 ticks = 4.2% chance to not crit.

You think a 4.2% chance to not get a free healing rotation merits comparison with the Mercenary/Commando and Operative/Scoundrel 2min CD jump start?

Anyhow.. I'm not trying to say that we don't have tools that others do not, I'm just trying to point out that even with these tools we still have our issues

Only if you look at the Sage/Sorcerer class in a vacuum where the other two classes don't exist and you go out of your way looking for excuses as to why you can't play.

and one of them being too many tools.

Feel free to pack them up and send them to me.

see also

but Merc/Com are still the strongest single target healers in the game

No. This is dangerous thinking.

See, from a conceptual perspective, there are 3 ways to balance healing across roles:

1. Homogenity - every class can do the same thing (no one likes this)
   
2. Niche - each class has a specific role in which it excels at to a significant degree.
   
3. Different Styles, Same Results - The classes each have different tools, but they can utilize those tools to accomplish any given healing role.
   

Option 1 is right out.

Option 2 is what you're looking to with your "Mercenary/Commando healers are great single-target healers" comment, but there's a problem: niche balancing is only viable under very specific circumstances: BOTH (1) Typical party-size accommodates bringing (at least) one of each class and (2) One of the classes is not capable of performing all healing-roles as well as or better than the other classes.

Neither of these conditions exists in this game at this time: (1) Typical party size for end-game content is 8, with room for 2 healers (this might change if the 16-man content is made less difficult like intended, but even then you still face an exclusion problem on the 8-man); and (2) the Sorcerer/Sage healing class is capable of performing every healing role as good as or better than any other class, and has several roles which only can be filled by a Sorcerer/Sage - a veritable "Master-of-All-Trades" class.

That leaves Option 3. Which means Mercenary/Commando healers need an overhaul just as extensive as Operative/Scoundrel, or they'll be left as a niche healer in a niche that doesn't exist.

and Ops/Sc probably have the most issues that need to be addressed.

Only sensible thing you've said.

Wow.. on the defensive much.. LOL.. If you're seriously that angry about it just roll a sage and get over yourself.

Directive 7 HM with new 50's in a mix of blues/purples is rough for sages. if you don't have a tank worth their salt pulling the claw off of you every time their taunt is up (Instead of taunting the stuff murdering your DPS), the claw is yours and you spend the entire fight running around like an idiot.. That's my example.. You still have your Green beam / kolto cell that you can cast on the run in those situations which doesn't heal for a lot but can still keep you from a wipe. But really any healing class is going to suffer in a situation where the group cant get out of the fire.

With regard to bubble being the defacto standard uber OMG 1337 Skillz that everyone seems to think is god of healing, haven't played a sage.

Can it get you out of a sticky situation.. yes.. assuming the target can be cast on (didn't have one on them in the last 20 seconds) and if the target is low HP, I'd take a large heal over a bubble any day of the week.

I don't need to L2P, I'm doing fine and having a blast actually. I'm just sick of people who compare stuff from reading other peoples post and extrapolating instead of actually playing the class in end-game content. I just proved my point to you how annoying that really is.

Infuriating isn't it...

Directive 7 HM with new 50's in a mix of blues/purples is rough for sages.

I don't need to L2P.

I've been a 50 sage since week one...you know before they nerfed D7. I find a lot of hilarity in these two quotes. I was healing D7 HM in greens and oranges 2 days after hitting 50. Healing tanks with the same level gear.

So yea. One of those statements is false. Just saying (i think its the bottom one).

Wow.. on the defensive much.. LOL.. If you're seriously that angry about it just roll a sage and get over yourself.

 

Directive 7 HM with new 50's in a mix of blues/purples is rough for sages. if you don't have a tank worth their salt pulling the claw off of you every time their taunt is up (Instead of taunting the stuff murdering your DPS), the claw is yours and you spend the entire fight running around like an idiot.. That's my example.. You still have your Green beam / kolto cell that you can cast on the run in those situations which doesn't heal for a lot but can still keep you from a wipe. But really any healing class is going to suffer in a situation where the group cant get out of the fire.

 

With regard to bubble being the defacto standard uber OMG 1337 Skillz that everyone seems to think is god of healing, haven't played a sage.

 

Can it get you out of a sticky situation.. yes.. assuming the target can be cast on (didn't have one on them in the last 20 seconds) and if the target is low HP, I'd take a large heal over a bubble any day of the week.

 

I don't need to L2P, I'm doing fine and having a blast actually. I'm just sick of people who compare stuff from reading other peoples post and extrapolating instead of actually playing the class in end-game content. I just proved my point to you how annoying that really is.

 

Infuriating isn't it...

Sigh. These people are on the defensive because you are on the offensive. You can't punch someone and then say "LOL you're trying to defend yourself." You're the direct cause.

You're really showing off your lack of knowledge when it comes to your "Directive 7" argument. Your comment is that with undergeared people sages have hard times. Obviously I shouldn't have to say it, but with undergeared people EVERY healer has a hard time. That's pretty much the definition of the word.

You have to sit down (you're already there, good) and get one interesting but very important point through your head.

Sage's have better instant cast heals than any other healer.

Read it again. It's not a joke, it's not an exaggeration, it's not extrapolation. Everyone else realizes it, and you obviously still don't understand. Look into several different threads on this forum, the math has been done. If you restrict all three healers to only using instant casts, Sage comes out way on top. Your arguments about "oh, well sometimes you have to move" are all ill-founded and an exercise in snap judgments that are wrong at the very foundation of logic. You're basically making our point for us.

I'm not intending this post to be an attack on you at a personal level, but I need you to understand that everything that you're saying in defense of your class is absolutely and undeniably incorrect. The experience, the math, the facts have all been done and documented. To continue to argue that point is simply an indication of raw and unadulterated ignorance. Please, for your own appearance's sake, do some research and realize that there is a severe class imbalance.

If you're having trouble with sage, you are a bad player.

Wow.. on the defensive much.. LOL.. If you're seriously that angry about it just roll a sage and get over yourself.

I'm not defending anything, I just don't tolerate ignorance very well; I'm equally allergic to misinformed whining.

And don't worry, I don't play anymore, I'm just waiting on my subscription to run out and I've decided that this issue is interesting enough to keep my interest.

Directive 7 HM with new 50's in a mix of blues/purples is rough for sages. if you don't have a tank worth their salt pulling the claw off of you every time their taunt is up (Instead of taunting the stuff murdering your DPS), the claw is yours and you spend the entire fight running around like an idiot.. That's my example.. You still have your Green beam / kolto cell that you can cast on the run in those situations which doesn't heal for a lot but can still keep you from a wipe. But really any healing class is going to suffer in a situation where the group cant get out of the fire.

Exactly, your example isn't an actual depiction/example of healing in this game, it's a limited situation that relies on several if statements, most importantly not playing with a tank that knows how to play.

With regard to bubble being the defacto standard uber OMG 1337 Skillz that everyone seems to think is god of healing, haven't played a sage.

 

Can it get you out of a sticky situation.. yes.. assuming the target can be cast on (didn't have one on them in the last 20 seconds) and if the target is low HP, I'd take a large heal over a bubble any day of the week.

I've seen this argument used several times: You assert that the instantly cast mitigation of 4k damage - a low cost, instant cast ability that does something literally none of the other classes can do - is some how made worthless because it can only be cast on an individual target every 20s. (Cf. the Commando/Mercenary heal - for less than the total of the bubble - that can only be cast once every 21s, not once per target).

I don't need to L2P, I'm doing fine and having a blast actually. I'm just sick of people who compare stuff from reading other peoples post and extrapolating instead of actually playing the class in end-game content. I just proved my point to you how annoying that really is.

 

Infuriating isn't it...

Self-awareness, how refreshing. I wish I'd had the fortune to pick a class with a place in high-end content, but why take an Operative over a Sorcerer.