Note:The concepts and suggestions listed in this post are geared towards defining the purpose of Operative/Scoundrel healing and giving them the tools to execute that purpose effectively. It isn't about numbers or comparing them to the other healers. It is about finding what Operatives/Scoundrel healers are/were meant to do well, and making it happen.

THIS POST IS A WORK IN PROGRESS. But feel free to comment.

Currently, as I see it, there are four major (mechanical) problems with Operative/Scoundrel healing:

1) All of their utility (read: everything that isn't straight-up heal-botting) is designed for 10m or less and we have little to no group synergy

2) The 31 pt talent in the healing tree (Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud) is lackluster and generally not worth the cost

3) The only really unique healing we bring to a party is either ineffective (Surgical Probe/Emergency Medpac spam at <30% health) or impractical/inefficient (rolling Kolto Probe/Slow-release Medpac on multiple targets)

4) Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack pale in comparison to Surgical Probe/Emergency Medpac when you consider your TA/UH's are generally coming from Kolto Injection/Underworld Medicine

A) The best way of fixing both 1 and 4 is to give us a reason to be in melee range as a healer, rather than simply being a potentially hazardous tradeoff for the benefit of utility and melee range TA/UH generation that the other healers don't have to worry about.

B) The best way of fixing 2 and the second half of 3 is by making our HoTs more manageable.

C) The combined above fixes should fix the first half of 3 by default, as Surgical Probe/Emergency Medpac would no longer be our go-to heal for TA consumption, and would instead be our go-to heal for energy-efficient TA consumption.

I'm going to start with B, because making our HoTs more manageable is, in my opinion, the key to breaking the reliance on KI/UM -> SP/EM.

B) Make the following additions/changes to the current implementation of Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud:

i) Remove the cooldown.

ii) Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud now grants a debuff that prevents the same character from being affected by another Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud for the next 5-10 seconds.

iii) Targets affected by Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud now have any existing Kolto Probe/Slow-release Medpac buffs refreshed.

I think you see where this is going, but here's a few explanations anyways. (i)It's a prohibitively expensive HoT, so who cares if we can spam it when it won't do us any good? (ii) This should help alleviate the nuisance that is a target cap. Realistically, we can't remove the target cap without changing it from being a AoE buff HoT like it is. (iii) Huzzah, we now have viable group healing capability, we are now the HoT class, and we now can focus on the big ugly in front of us without having to worry so much about whose KP/SM is about to fall off.

If there are concerns that these changes would cause groups to stack Operatives/Scoundrels, this could be prevented by making RN/KC only refresh the KP/SM buffs applied by the caster of RN/KC, while making the RN/KC debuff prevent a 2nd Operative/Scoundrel from stacking a second set of HoTs. Yes, this would mean you would not want to stack Operative/Scoundrel healers, but you definitely don't want to stack them with the current state of healing, so it's still an improvement.

A) We're melee. We're healers. So let's do some melee healing!

The current rotation prefers KI/UM -> SP/EM. Let's mix it up with some Shiv and Blaster Whip and see where Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack end up.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Unless S/BW -> KI/KP is significantly better than KI/UM -> SP/EM, the status quo isn't going to change. But if S/BW -> KI/KP is significantly better, that means either KI/KP has to be lol-buffed to the point that I'd fear we'd encroach on Merc/Commando single target healing or KI/UM -> SP/EM would have to be nerfed, effectively removing the current rotation from use. Both are bad choices.

Instead of buffing/nerfing our current heals, let's kill two birds with one stone and tie a bit of group synergy into Operative/Scoundrel healer spec melee attacks. Let's give a reason for those willing to go the extra mile in melee to go with S/BW -> KI/KP over the current rotation without removing the current rotation as a viable option.

TBH... I'm somewhat stumped here. The best option I can come up with here is a heal spec talented debuff added to a melee attack or two that causes attacks made by allies against the target to grant a small buff to healing received.

The problem comes in the feeling I get that adding that to Shiv/Blaster Whip would make the utility + TA/UH gain a little too strong, but adding it to the other melee attacks gives the feeling that we'd be spending too much energy on melee attacks (remember the goal here is to move to using Shiv/Blaster Whip for our go-to TA/UH gain).

Ah well... the cold meds are making me a bit loopy anyways so I'll stop there for now.

TO BE CONTINUED...

A couple of options for your melee range ideas.

• Shiv/Backstab apply a debuff to the target. This debuff could do any of the following:
  
  • Heal anyone who attacks it. Sort of a reverse Trauma Probe. Short duration or limited stacks, both would encourage using Shiv/BS on the boss regularly.
    
  • Apply a healing received buff to anyone who attacks it, same as the Kolto Bomb buff. This would provide utility by buffing the heals of the other healers in the group as well.
    
  • Refreshes any HoTs on anyone who attacks it. Then you could roll out some KP/SRMPs, and focus on the tank, safe in the knowledge that your HoTs will stay. Probably need a target limit there or you would quickly have perma-HoTs on the entire raid.
    

  [*]Shiv/Backstab could trigger a weaker version of scrambling field. Basically a 10% DR bubble, centered on the boss.

  [*]Shiv/Backstab could be target-able on friendly targets, and heal instead of damage (ie, like Hammer Shot). Make it medium range instead of 4m so you aren't running all over trying to get close to your heal target, but you would still need to be in melee range.

Personally, I don't like the idea of a melee range healer as a means of increasing Operative viability.

The cost/benefit of having to get in melee range to heal someone is impossible to balance:

Costs

• Time to close distance between yourself and the target (impossible of the target is also moving away from you).
  
• Placing yourself in harms way of enemy AoE/Swipe/Cleave damage.
  
• Moving towards enemy targets (especially dangerous in PvP)
  

So the question becomes: What magnitude of benefit would be necessary to make people want to incur those costs?

Those benefits would have the be massive. I'm talking like healing for more than 1.5x of Kolto Injection (at which point you'd be healing for close to 1/3 of an average non-tank HP pool) - ergo significantly overpowered.

So we'd end up with a new ability that was either (1) generally useless because it's costs were too high vs. benefits (see Kolto Infusion); or (2) was overpowered in a dramatic fashion such so that it's benefits might equal its costs.

It wouldn't make us anymore versatile or desirable for groups: in high-end PvE we'd likely incur more damage to ourselves by being that close to targets needing healed and/or targets would die before we could close on them; in PvP we'd be murdered the second we ran into crows and our targets would die before we could close on them (if they need that much healing, they need it now!)

Personally, I don't like the idea of a melee range healer as a means of increasing Operative viability.

 

The cost/benefit of having to get in melee range to heal someone is impossible to balance:

 

Costs

• Time to close distance between yourself and the target (impossible of the target is also moving away from you).
  
• Placing yourself in harms way of enemy AoE/Swipe/Cleave damage.
  
• Moving towards enemy targets (especially dangerous in PvP)
  

 

So the question becomes: What magnitude of benefit would be necessary to make people want to incur those costs?

 

Those benefits would have the be massive. I'm talking like healing for more than 1.5x of Kolto Injection (at which point you'd be healing for close to 1/3 of an average non-tank HP pool) - ergo significantly overpowered.

That's why I'm leaning more towards group synergy over sheer HPS.

If you have utility buffs that increases the effectiveness of not only your own healing/survivability but the healing/survivability of everyone in the group, the benefits of those buffs quickly increase exponentially.

So we'd end up with a new ability that was either (1) generally useless because it's costs were too high vs. benefits (see Kolto Infusion); or (2) was overpowered in a dramatic fashion such so that it's benefits might equal its costs.

 

It wouldn't make us anymore versatile or desirable for groups: in high-end PvE we'd likely incur more damage to ourselves by being that close to targets needing healed and/or targets would die before we could close on them; in PvP we'd be murdered the second we ran into crows and our targets would die before we could close on them (if they need that much healing, they need it now!)

You're looking at the pieces instead of the big picture here. I agree that prodding us into melee range currently is a recipe for disaster, but I also see the phantom remnants of a design goal that wanted us to be in melee range to be effective.

1) Kolto Infusion only makes the least bit of sense if you consider we aren't primarily getting our TA from Kolto Injection.

2) A personal shield (and a talent that buffs healing received in it) doesn't make sense at all alongside our other ways to deal with aggro/players unless it was intended to give that healer the survivability to succeed in melee range.

3) I'd rather believe that the dev that designed our class was not so ridiculously incompetent as to never realize that making everything the spec can do outside of straight-up healbotting have a range of 10m or less makes it de facto inferior to the other healers before even considering that Operatives are the worst at straight-up healbotting by the numbers.

Now, I don't want to pigeonhole Operatives into being just melee healers either, and I don't think that's what the devs wanted either (or they could simply have nixed the TA gain from Injection talent).

But Operatives have to be able to succeed at both, or else they are going to be mechanically inferior to the other healers in every case that Operative heals aren't significantly more powerful than the other healers, for the simple fact that, unlike the other healers, an Operative outside of melee range brings absolutely nothing to the group but those healing numbers.

Sure we could increase those healing numbers, but, thanks to the regen mechanics, that would just put Mercs/Commandos in the same position we're in only very slightly better because they don't have to be in melee range to contribute outside of the healbot numbers.

I like the idea of a melee healer. It's not an idea that you see in many games, or at least only a single class in other games. It's certainly different than a merc or sorc.

Maybe a replacement 31 point talent adds something to knife attacks? Shiv, backstab et al now have an AoE heal or shield centered on the target? Whatever happens, I think it should keep the operative alive while he is in melee as well as the tank.

If it heals both the operative and tank, it is probably an AoE, strengthening another weak area of the operative. The one thing I dislike about it, is having to switch targets between the tank and mob every couple seconds.

I already know that you and I are approaching Operative/Scoundrel healing from different design goals; but it's really more important to fully develop all of the ideas.

That's why I'm leaning more towards group synergy over sheer HPS.

If you have utility buffs that increases the effectiveness of not only your own healing/survivability but the healing/survivability of everyone in the group, the benefits of those buffs quickly increase exponentially.

I don't want to change Operative/Scoundrel healing into a support class.

You're looking at the pieces instead of the big picture here. I agree that prodding us into melee range currently is a recipe for disaster, but I also see the phantom remnants of a design goal that wanted us to be in melee range to be effective.

I don't see it. I see our melee tools are being what the DPS Operative/Scoundrel need to be effective, and having nothing to do with our healing roles.

Honestly, if any class was meant to be a melee healer, it should be the one decked out in heavy armor.

1) Kolto Infusion only makes the least bit of sense if you consider we aren't primarily getting our TA from Kolto Injection.

1. You're not actually suggesting generating TA/UH stacks from Shiv are you?
   
2. Kolto Infusion still doesn't make sense. It's not the difficulty of generating a TA that makes Kolto Infusion worthless, it's the fact that it will still not give any meaningful benefit over Kolto Injection.
   

2) A personal shield (and a talent that buffs healing received in it) doesn't make sense at all alongside our other ways to deal with aggro/players unless it was intended to give that healer the survivability to succeed in melee range.

All of the classes have defensive cooldowns, that doesn't mean they're all intended to be in melee range. The sniper also has shield probe, would you suggest them DPS in melee range? The Commando/Mercenary Shield would actually be more apt at putting them in melee range because it eliminates knockback on skills.

3) I'd rather believe that the dev that designed our class was not so ridiculously incompetent as to never realize that making everything the spec can do outside of straight-up healbotting have a range of 10m or less makes it de facto inferior to the other healers before even considering that Operatives are the worst at straight-up healbotting by the numbers.

First, the bold isn't true - the range differences outside of healing are irrelevant unless you're trying to make the Operative into something different than a main healer.

However whether you believe it or not: the devs screwed-up on our class. That's ok, that happens a lot - even the developers have favorites.

Now, I don't want to pigeonhole Operatives into being just melee healers either, and I don't think that's what the devs wanted either (or they could simply have nixed the TA gain from Injection talent).

 

But Operatives have to be able to succeed at both, or else they are going to be mechanically inferior to the other healers in every case that Operative heals aren't significantly more powerful than the other healers, for the simple fact that, unlike the other healers, an Operative outside of melee range brings absolutely nothing to the group but those healing numbers.

Changing Operatives into melee healers would make them literally inferior to the other healers in every instance, because they'd be taking damage, trying to attack things, and needing to move into range of targets they want to heal.

Sure we could increase those healing numbers, but, thanks to the regen mechanics, that would just put Mercs/Commandos in the same position we're in only very slightly better because they don't have to be in melee range to contribute outside of the healbot numbers.

Healers that aren't healing are wasteful. If you have time to be doing other things, it means someone is covering up your fail (likely a Sorcerer/Sage).

The design goal of every class of the game is to minimize hybridization and maximize "main" roles.

“Ultimately we don’t do hybrid roles. You can do them (by mixing different skill trees), but by design, all our classes are meant to be fully capable in the roles they fill. The ‘hybrid’ tax would be the fact that you won’t be able to get the top tier talents in one skill tree if you spread yourself too thin into others.”

To me, it sounds like you think Operative healers ought to be inferior in healing because they should be DPSing as well. I don't think that's the goal, nor do I think it should be.

I already know that you and I are approaching Operative/Scoundrel healing from different design goals; but it's really more important to fully develop all of the ideas.

 

 

 

I don't want to change Operative/Scoundrel healing into a support class.

 

 

 

 

I don't see it. I see our melee tools are being what the DPS Operative/Scoundrel need to be effective, and having nothing to do with our healing roles.

 

Honestly, if any class was meant to be a melee healer, it should be the one decked out in heavy armor.

 

 

 

1. You're not actually suggesting generating TA/UH stacks from Shiv are you?
   
2. Kolto Infusion still doesn't make sense. It's not the difficulty of generating a TA that makes Kolto Infusion worthless, it's the fact that it will still not give any meaningful benefit over Kolto Injection.
   

 

 

 

All of the classes have defensive cooldowns, that doesn't mean they're all intended to be in melee range. The sniper also has shield probe, would you suggest them DPS in melee range? The Commando/Mercenary Shield would actually be more apt at putting them in melee range because it eliminates knockback on skills.

 

 

 

First, the bold isn't true - the range differences outside of healing are irrelevant unless you're trying to make the Operative into something different than a main healer.

 

However whether you believe it or not: the devs screwed-up on our class. That's ok, that happens a lot - even the developers have favorites.

 

 

 

Changing Operatives into melee healers would make them literally inferior to the other healers in every instance, because they'd be taking damage, trying to attack things, and needing to move into range of targets they want to heal.

 

 

 

Healers that aren't healing are wasteful. If you have time to be doing other things, it means someone is covering up your fail (likely a Sorcerer/Sage).

 

The design goal of every class of the game is to minimize hybridization and maximize "main" roles.

 

 

 

To me, it sounds like you think Operative healers ought to be inferior in healing because they should be DPSing as well. I don't think that's the goal, nor do I think it should be.

+1

Thanks again bobudo for putting into words what I'm sure many of us were thinking. I've been searching for a way to state my objections to this, but couldn't find the words...

+1

 

Thanks again bobudo for putting into words what I'm sure many of us were thinking. I've been searching for a way to state my objections to this, but couldn't find the words...

Careful Mister (Miss? Misses? sorry, I promise I'm not a sexist), I charge by the hour ;-)

First, the bold isn't true - the range differences outside of healing are irrelevant unless you're trying to make the Operative into something different than a main healer.

 

However whether you believe it or not: the devs screwed-up on our class. That's ok, that happens a lot - even the developers have favorites.

...

Changing Operatives into melee healers would make them literally inferior to the other healers in every instance, because they'd be taking damage, trying to attack things, and needing to move into range of targets they want to heal.

...

Healers that aren't healing are wasteful. If you have time to be doing other things, it means someone is covering up your fail (likely a Sorcerer/Sage).

 

The design goal of every class of the game is to minimize hybridization and maximize "main" roles.

...

To me, it sounds like you think Operative healers ought to be inferior in healing because they should be DPSing as well. I don't think that's the goal, nor do I think it should be.

Let me repeat, I'm not trying to pigeonhole Operatives into melee healers.

It seems you're getting stuck on that and missing my actual point here.

1) Fact: Operatives are by and far the worst healbots

2) Fact: Operatives are the only healer class that brings nothing to the group outside of being a healbot, except in ranges <10m

3) Fact: As long as both 1 & 2 remain true, Operative healers are completely pointless and worthless

It seems you want to change #1. The problem with that is the fact that Mercenaries/Commandos seem to be designed to be the best single target healbot. That leaves Operatives/Scoundrels as the group healbot.

The problem is, our group heal, Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud, is not designed in a fashion that could ever make that work. It's an instant cast area of effect HoT buff. Am I the only one that really sees how overpowered it would be if it had no target cap?

I'm not suggesting making the Operative/Scoundrel outright stronger than the other healers (which is the only way healbotting could ever work for the class without a total rework/overhaul, for the simple fact that we get the short end of both the resource and mechanics stick).

Instead, I'm suggesting accentuating the Operative/Scoundrel mobility. Let us dance in and out of melee, give us the tools (more leaning towards improving our existing ones) to do it without getting splatted, and make it all mean something to the group.

Let us heal solely from range effectively (read: more effective than we do now) but slightly less so than the other classes (improving the manageability of our HoTs should go a ways in accomplishing this). But when we're at the top of our game, we should bring a tangible and sought after, but not outright required (read: Sorc/Sage AoE), asset to the group.

1. You're not actually suggesting generating TA/UH stacks from Shiv are you?
   
2. Kolto Infusion still doesn't make sense. It's not the difficulty of generating a TA that makes Kolto Infusion worthless, it's the fact that it will still not give any meaningful benefit over Kolto Injection.
   

The benefit would be HPS. It already gives (or should, not sure how well it scales in top tier gear yet) that benefit, but it's severely diminished by the fact that we're weighing the cost of that TA at 25 energy and ~2s to to begin with.

Yes, I'm suggesting that considering TA from Shiv rather than Kolto Injection changes the cost of that TA, and therefore the cost/benefit analysis of Kolto Infusion itself. Even moreso if you grant other benefits to using Shiv.

I'm not saying Kolto Infusion's numbers shouldn't be looked at, I'm saying the devs have to look at all the numbers, and the Shiv -> Kolto Infusion numbers are most likely the most efficient ones.

I have weighed in a similar angle, because a Healing Shiv would be awesome.

Healers are a support class.

Based on the stated goals of the developers during development, I believe that they intended for Healers to have more relevance than simply making the numbers go up. That is why every healer has access to stun abilities, mesmerize abilities, defensive abilities, and so on.

The non-healing support functions of the Operative function @ <10m.

Whether intentional design or not, the Operative does not fully function @ 30m

Rather than grafting the heal onto Shiv, a separate melee heal would be optimal.

Making Kolto Infusion a melee instant heal (with a talented secondary buff) would be worth stepping in momentarily for.

Alternately, allowing our other abilities to function @ 30m could solve this going the other direction.

Let me repeat, I'm not trying to pigeonhole Operatives into melee healers.

Just because that's not your intent doesn't mean that it would be the practical effect of your suggestion (in this instance).

It seems you're getting stuck on that and missing my actual point here.

1) Fact: Operatives are by and far the worst healbots

2) Fact: Operatives are the only healer class that brings nothing to the group outside of being a healbot, except in ranges <10m

3) Fact: As long as both 1 & 2 remain true, Operative healers are completely pointless and worthless

 

It seems you want to change #1. The problem with that is the fact that Mercenaries/Commandos seem to be designed to be the best single target healbot. That leaves Operatives/Scoundrels as the group healbot.

False. Your concept of "healbot" and the changes I want to make are flawed.

Niche healers are not going to work in this game, given that Sorcerer/Sage can already fill both Single- and Multi-Target healing at the same time.

Thus, I want both Operative/Scoundrel & Commando/Mercenary healing to do that as well; anything less than that will still leave both classes as sub-par group choices for high-end PvE, as you can always just bring the class that does both.

The problem is, our group heal, Recuperative Nanotech/Kolto Cloud, is not designed in a fashion that could ever make that work. It's an instant cast area of effect HoT buff. Am I the only one that really sees how overpowered it would be if it had no target cap?

No, not overpowered, equal. Overpowered is a subjective term requiring a comparison. The Sorcerer/Sage AoE does double the healing in half the time without a target cap. The trade-off is the lack of mobility.

Given that there is a AoE heal without a target cap, and that PvE content appears to be specifically designed around this ability, continuing to fail to give Operative/Scoundrel healers a means of healing the entire party will mean they continue to be unused in PvE.

While any changes made to RN/KC will need to account for the lack of a mobility cost, 50% is too much,, especially considering how long it takes for RN/KC to heal for its reduced amount.

I'm not suggesting making the Operative/Scoundrel outright stronger than the other healers (which is the only way healbotting could ever work for the class without a total rework/overhaul, for the simple fact that we get the short end of both the resource and mechanics stick).

 

Instead, I'm suggesting accentuating the Operative/Scoundrel mobility. Let us dance in and out of melee, give us the tools (more leaning towards improving our existing ones) to do it without getting splatted, and make it all mean something to the group.

Explain to me how those qualities would make us more desirable in PvE.

Explain to me how you're going to convince a group to bring a healer that, to perform to its potential, has to go where they don't otherwise let healers go.

In order to achieve your goals, you ARE asking for a complete reworking of the class:

1. Countering incoming damage from short-range AoE effects (someone has to heal the healer!)
   
2. Countering cast-time interrupts.
   
3. Countering all the moving which will inevitably put you in harms way of other things.
   
4. Countering the fact that other healers don't need to move to 10-4m to heal (i.e. why bring a liability to your group).
   

Countering those issues is not insignificant. Operative/Scoundrel healers would need to be able to run around (unless you're giving them a closer move), take damage that doesn't need to be healed, not get interrupted (already a Merc/Commando ability) and still be significantly more powerful healers such that it would be worth bringing them.

You need to approach this problem like a group, not from "what you think would be cool". No group would ever want to bring the healer you are describing unless their benefits outweighed the costs. In order to overcome the significant costs of the healer you've described, they would need to be significantly more powerful than the other classes.

Let us heal solely from range effectively (read: more effective than we do now) but slightly less so than the other classes (improving the manageability of our HoTs should go a ways in accomplishing this). But when we're at the top of our game, we should bring a tangible and sought after, but not outright required (read: Sorc/Sage AoE), asset to the group.

You're ideas don't solve this problem, they make it worse.

An 8-man group needs: 1 tank, 5 DPS, 2 healers. This is a trinity MMO that seeks to minimize hybridization (per the quote in my previous post). That means content is designed around bringing those 3 roles in that representation (thus the need for enrage timers). Groups do not want, nor will they be successful, bringing a heals + DPS hybrid.

Given that that the Sorcerer/Sage AoE will remain required for all content (since you wouldn't change any other classes ability to AoE heal), 8-man groups would only have 1 open healer slot. Given the option, high-performing groups will bring the best healer.

If you fail to fully correct the flaws of Operative/Scoundrel healers, and instead just tack on some melee range DPS abilities, an 8-man group will always pick one of the other two classes.

The benefit would be HPS. It already gives (or should, not sure how well it scales in top tier gear yet) that benefit, but it's severely diminished by the fact that we're weighing the cost of that TA at 25 energy and ~2s to to begin with.

Except we're not hurting for single target HPS, and the cost/benefit of Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack would still be too high vs. Kolto Infusion/Underworld Medicine

Yes, I'm suggesting that considering TA from Shiv rather than Kolto Injection changes the cost of that TA, and therefore the cost/benefit analysis of Kolto Infusion itself. Even moreso if you grant other benefits to using Shiv.

 

I'm not saying Kolto Infusion's numbers shouldn't be looked at, I'm saying the devs have to look at all the numbers, and the Shiv -> Kolto Infusion numbers are most likely the most efficient ones.

Even more efficient is using a TA/UH generated from KP/SRMP to cast Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack, but that still doesn't make anyone want to cast it.

Why? Because it saves you 5 whole energy from a Kolto Injection, and .5 seconds. That really means it only saves you 2 energy, since you lose half a tick of energy regen from the shorter casting time.

In the mean time, you've wasted valuable healing time running up to a mob and shiving it. I don't know what boss fights you've been playing, but the only time I stop healing is to (1) move out of bad or (2) to exit area. I don't know where you're going to find the time to close distance to a mob to shiv - let alone cast all the defensive buffs you want to make melee range survivable - for a TA to cast a heal that heals for the same amount as your slightly more costly "main heal"

Or look at it this way - if it takes you more than .5 seconds to close the distance to a mob, shiv it, and start casting Kolto Infusion (this is a mechanical impossibility), then it is in fact less efficient than Kolto Injection.

I have weighed in a similar angle, because a Healing Shiv would be awesome.

Awesome for who - the healer or the group. Because if it's not the group, then the healer will be sitting on the fleet doing nothing.

Healers are a support class.

 

Based on the stated goals of the developers during development, I believe that they intended for Healers to have more relevance than simply making the numbers go up. That is why every healer has access to stun abilities, mesmerize abilities, defensive abilities, and so on.

Given that every class has access to these abilities and doesn't have to sacrifice their viability in their main role, I don't see how this is relevant.

The non-healing support functions of the Operative function @ <10m.

Yeah, but they also don't have the same cooldowns that the Sorcerer version does. There are trade-offs for the range requirements (that they don't do enough to make everything function (Sleep Dart) is a mechanics issue, not a range issue).

Whether intentional design or not, the Operative does not fully function @ 30m

A healing Operative (to the extent that it functions at all) does[/] fully function at healing when @ 30m.

Rather than grafting the heal onto Shiv, a separate melee heal would be optimal.

No, it would not (see above).

Making Kolto Infusion a melee instant heal (with a talented secondary buff) would be worth stepping in momentarily for.

No it would not. You'd have to close ~20-30m to use it. Unless you can do that in 1.5s (or Kolto Infusion's heal gets buffed by a significant amount), you would have been better off casting Surgical Probe, rather than not casting for the time it takes you to get close and move out of harms way - and that doesn't even account for the damage you'll take while you do that.

Alternately, allowing our other abilities to function @ 30m could solve this going the other direction.

No. Our other abilities are not healing abilities, ergo, they are irrelevant to the healing conversation.

The design goals of this game were to turn you into a Main (Tank/DPS/Healer) depending on your spec. That means that classes all have abilities that they aren't going to use in their main role; stated another way: just because you have it does not mean you were supposed to use it.

A Tanking-Specced Juggernaut has a DPS stance they could use; that does not mean they were intended to leave their Tanking stance to do so.

Similarly, a Healing-Specced Operatve has DPS abilities, but that doesn't mean they should be using them.

You're ideas don't solve this problem, they make it worse.

 

An 8-man group needs: 1 tank, 5 DPS, 2 healers. This is a trinity MMO that seeks to minimize hybridization (per the quote in my previous post). That means content is designed around bringing those 3 roles in that representation (thus the need for enrage timers). Groups do not want, nor will they be successful, bringing a heals + DPS hybrid.

 

Given that that the Sorcerer/Sage AoE will remain required for all content (since you wouldn't change any other classes ability to AoE heal), 8-man groups would only have 1 open healer slot. Given the option, high-performing groups will bring the best healer.

 

If you fail to fully correct the flaws of Operative/Scoundrel healers, and instead just tack on some melee range DPS abilities, an 8-man group will always pick one of the other two classes.

Maybe it's just on my server, but ever since the surge nerf I've seen more and more discussions about how even the min/maxers are having to squeeze out enough DPS to beat the enrage in NM. Every single time the answer has been "Get your healer to throw some more DPS in between heals".

Operative healers can't do that. That is another of their flaws.

Other than that, it seems we're at an impasse.

You want the healers to be equal, and I don't see the mechanics allowing that to happen.

You believe that Operatives would have to be significantly more powerful to tradeoff going into melee range, and I believe that Operatives would have to be significantly more powerful to tradeoff not having the other healers' long range utility.

That said, I'll address more of your points (as well as how I'd make Operative healers not be a burden in melee range) later... think a mild fever's getting to me and I can't put my arguments together well enough atm.

The design goals of this game were to turn you into a Main (Tank/DPS/Healer) depending on your spec. That means that classes all have abilities that they aren't going to use in their main role; stated another way: just because you have it does not mean you were supposed to use it.

Similarly, a Healing-Specced Operatve has DPS abilities, but that doesn't mean they should be using them.

Selective quoting from waaaaaaay back:

The ‘Sawbones’ skill-set on the other hand offers ways to dramatically improve the Smuggler’s healing and support-related abilities...

or they could decide that a ‘Stealth Healer’ role with points distributed between the Scrapper and Sawbones trees might be the role they want to play in Star Wars: The Old Republic.

Source

At one point, they had a more diverse notion about what a healer could be, but this was also around the same time they still had a ranged tank at range.

Maybe it's just on my server, but ever since the surge nerf I've seen more and more discussions about how even the min/maxers are having to squeeze out enough DPS to beat the enrage in NM. Every single time the answer has been "Get your healer to throw some more DPS in between heals".

I haven't gotten to raid since before the surge nerf, so I wouldn't know

That said, I'll address more of your points (as well as how I'd make Operative healers not be a burden in melee range) later... think a mild fever's getting to me and I can't put my arguments together well enough atm.

Yuck! I hope you feel better (and I'm glad you don't live near me!! )!!

Like I said in my previous post (my post-post post?) I know that you and I are approaching this from different directions. To me, that we can look at once class and see two different designs shows just how broken it is. But it also means there's hope.

That's why I'm so much enjoying this discussion/argument; it means that as broken as this class is, it's not hopeless. I'll concede that my failure to see the benefits to the design you're talking about might just as easily be a failure of imagination as anything else, but hammering out the pros and cons of this idea is really a blast.

Selective quoting from waaaaaaay back:

 

At one point, they had a more diverse notion about what a healer could be, but this was also around the same time they still had a ranged tank at range.

I wonder when Georg shifted from that to the no-hybridizing approach I quoted from.

I'll come clean: my dislike for this idea is mostly personal, because that's not the sort of healer I want to play, but I can't play a class as anything less than effective (in another thread someone accused me a being a min-maxer, they were correct )

I rolled the class because I expected it to be the HoT healer (ala Druid ), and that's the design approach I take towards fixing the class, because that's the healer I'd most like to play.

That said, I don't think the current toolset and mechanics lends itself to range or "melee" healing, and that the class needs a serious overhaul regardless. As long as it gets that attention, I'll consider our efforts here a success, even if I have to find out that my design paradigm was wrong.

But don't think that doesn't mean I'll argue this to the death. I want the devs to be able to look at our threads and see the pros and cons listed out and refined down to perfection. The simpler we can make the conceptual phase of the overhaul, the faster we'll see the fruits.

Mmm, fruits.

I wonder when Georg shifted from that to the no-hybridizing approach I quoted from.

 

I'll come clean: my dislike for this idea is mostly personal, because that's not the sort of healer I want to play, but I can't play a class as anything less than effective (in another thread someone accused me a being a min-maxer, they were correct )

 

I rolled the class because I expected it to be the HoT healer (ala Druid ), and that's the design approach I take towards fixing the class, because that's the healer I'd most like to play.

 

That said, I don't think the current toolset and mechanics lends itself to range or "melee" healing, and that the class needs a serious overhaul regardless. As long as it gets that attention, I'll consider our efforts here a success, even if I have to find out that my design paradigm was wrong.

 

But don't think that doesn't mean I'll argue this to the death. I want the devs to be able to look at our threads and see the pros and cons listed out and refined down to perfection. The simpler we can make the conceptual phase of the overhaul, the faster we'll see the fruits.

 

Mmm, fruits.

The question you stated is something that I have been pondering more and more recently. I wonder if the reality of getting such a massive project out the door, combined with whip cracks from EA spurred them to the more limited and finite approach we see today. Not something we are likely to get definitive insights on though.

I have similar impulses regarding optimization, but I also like to have choices. The more finite and clear it is how to build a character "correctly" the less interested I am. A part of the fun is optimizing and making the character your best, as opposed to copy / pasting from the internet, and pressing a macro in time to a metronome. Allowing players enough room to play in a world with their characters to discover things gives birth to emergent gameplay and those moments that can't be had anywhere else.

In the spirit of candor, I was never a fan of the tree druid. I rolled an Operative because I was interested in something fresh. ( I guess trees can be fresh, but with their roots rarely touching water, that seems unlikley )

To explicitly state my notion of range, I think the operative is geared towards medium range, I gravitate to just outside of 10m to stay outside of AoE and pop inside 10m when I want to drop an ability that hs limited range. Only 1 heal has me standing still, so I tend towards skirmishing. A close / medium range heal makes more sense when you aren't already standing as far away as possible.

A single strong melee heal reinforces the notion of movement and skirmishing. An array of melee range healing techniques would encourage us to stay in melee range, but frankly we aren't built for prolonged exposure at melee range.

If the operative continues down the path of instant HoT heals, you will have more freedom to move. A strong limited range heal would encourage Operatives to use their mobility. The alternative is most Operatives rooting in one place hugging a wall like wallflowers. They might as well turn us into a tree then.

I enjoy discussing and debating these things, so keep it coming. My operative might not see much attention otherwise until 1.2

What I would like to see the most for us is another HoT. Turn Kolto Pack/Infusion into an instant-cast HoT that heals for roughly the same as 2 stacks of Slow-Release, lasts as long (15-18s is fine), and still costs the UH/TA + some energy cost (maybe drop it to 10). That would give us another viable UH/TA dump, as the overall healing done per UH/TA stack would be higher at a cost of the delay in which the healing is done (and the marginal energy cost).

OR

Make Diagnostic Scan like the channeled heal Sages/Sorcs get (add a marginal cost, say 10-15 energy). Keep the crit tick mechanic the same (mimicking the free energy return Sages/Sorcs get from critting on theirs), but make the heal from it worthwhile. This helps increase the value of Alacrity to Ops/Scoundrels as well, helping us gain value out of current itemization.

Either way, if we had another worthwhile periodic heal, it would give us that extra bit of niche love (best hots in the game, compared to best (only) damage absorb for Sages/Sorcs, and best (only) reactive heals for Merc/Commandos). I don't hate how my Scoundrel plays as a healer, I just want it to do more along the already carved out lines.

or simply make infusion to consume KP stacks and heal for as it heals now + the remaining on the hots.

this would solve one of our problems by giving us a real burst heal.

it would heal for a lot but it couldn't be spammed since a)for burst it would require reappling the hots (3secs) and b) also energy wise it would require 75energy spent in 7.5sec which is a ton (2xkp+1xki+1xinfusion)

I have similar impulses regarding optimization, but I also like to have choices. The more finite and clear it is how to build a character "correctly" the less interested I am. A part of the fun is optimizing and making the character your best, as opposed to copy / pasting from the internet, and pressing a macro in time to a metronome. Allowing players enough room to play in a world with their characters to discover things gives birth to emergent gameplay and those moments that can't be had anywhere else.

I like this from a philosophical stand point, and it really is a shame we don't see more of it. That I argue against it is either a certain form of cynicism or a lack of imagination on my part.

In the spirit of candor, I was never a fan of the tree druid. I rolled an Operative because I was interested in something fresh. ( I guess trees can be fresh, but with their roots rarely touching water, that seems unlikley )

Punny. I don't mean to say I expected the Operative to function exactly like the Druid (though some of my efforts in how to fix the class borrow liberally from that playstyle), merely that I was expecting the majority of our healing to be based on the HoT (which it could be if the TA/UH stack wasn't so limited and the HoT procced more reliably such that we could replace Kolto Injection/Underworld Medicine with Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack)

To explicitly state my notion of range, I think the operative is geared towards medium range, I gravitate to just outside of 10m to stay outside of AoE and pop inside 10m when I want to drop an ability that hs limited range. Only 1 heal has me standing still, so I tend towards skirmishing. A close / medium range heal makes more sense when you aren't already standing as far away as possible.

Yes. I had considered being constantly moving as what you and Xaearth were suggesting, but hey, what fun is an argument without being a little obtuse.

This "skirmisher" concept certainly has place in PvP; what do you feel it adds in PvE? Or does it not currently add anything and thus the basis of your suggestions?

A single strong melee heal reinforces the notion of movement and skirmishing. An array of melee range healing techniques would encourage us to stay in melee range, but frankly we aren't built for prolonged exposure at melee range.

 

If the operative continues down the path of instant HoT heals, you will have more freedom to move. A strong limited range heal would encourage Operatives to use their mobility. The alternative is most Operatives rooting in one place hugging a wall like wallflowers. They might as well turn us into a tree then.

So given a skirmisher playstyle/achetype, you want to create incentives. Can't argue with providing proper incentives, given that's the whole purpose of this entire issue - making rewards match strenuous effort.

[iDEA] Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack becomes a 2 purpose heal. Outside X range (lets say 4m to make it interesting) KI/KP functions as it does, though with something fun added (at least a heal + HoT, jeez!). Inside melee range, instead of a cast it becomes an instant that doesn't trigger the GCD (and if it's a heal + HoT like I've recommended, it heals for HoT heal directly, rather than over time).

Programming complexities aside, that sounds like fun doesn't it?

I enjoy discussing and debating these things, so keep it coming. My operative might not see much attention otherwise until 1.2

Mine isn't. After a strong start, I just can't get into playing my Sorcerer (I think I'm burnt out on the Empire, but that's another story). I've thought about rolling a different role, but I've just never been much of a tank or DPS.

So here I am, paying $14 a month (I subbed for 3 months) for access to forums . . . sweet!