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08.19.2017 , 12:29 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
Given that the best pilot was able to hit 95k I would say the gap is too extreme if the weakest pilot only managed 1005 in comparison. Out of 18 total, 6 were under 10k damage - given that it was 8v8 that's practically an entire team. Sure bomber damage is highly dependent on mines, but that doesn't account for nearly a team's worth of people doing so little.
I don't disagree that there is a huge disparity in skill. I've participated in and perpetrated even worse gaps than that. What I disagree on is the means by which to address it, insomuch as it can be addressed.

If you want to look at the worst part of the disparity, start observing the Hit % of all pilots in matches. The vast majority of people playing now shoot under 20%, and a significant number don't even break out of the single digits. A small part of that is not having proper gear, but it is insignificant compared to a comprehension deficit of the mechanics by which the game is played. Evasion does not affect Hit % numbers, that stat records specifically the number of shots that were correctly aimed through manual precision.

An enormous number of people are not bothering to learn how or when to shoot.

The in-game tutorial is bad, but it does offer remedial instruction on how to fire your weapons, what 'range' is, how to lock a missile, etc. People are either unaware that there is a tutorial (which is common), are skipping the tutorial, or just don't care enough to learn to perform basic game tasks.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
Upgrading a ship takes weeks, even with the current adjustments.
No, it doesn't. If people get the Daily and Weekly quests, even assuming very low performance levels in matches, you can have important upgrades raised to a competitive state relatively quickly. This requires some small effort in determining which upgrades are best to get fast. While that information could be delivered more efficiently to players, and components could be rebalanced so as to remove 'useless' upgrades, it's not too much to ask.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
The thought of giving a fully mastered strike isn't quite as extreme as a fully upgraded battle scout or gunship. But not only would it allow new players to pose some threat,
Lots of players in fully upgraded ships pose no threat. Gear will not solve a single-digit Hit % unless it includes a module that puts the reticle on target and pulls the trigger for people. Maybe an autopilot that also takes them to A B or C would help, too.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
It would allow new players to actually do some damage despite their inexperience and actively contribute.
Again, I disagree. People aren't learning the fundamental basics of shooting, and will do no damage if they are blasting away with RFL the moment they spawn from the capship. People can contribute, earn medals, requisition, and CXP just by flying to a node in Domination matches and staying alive for a little while. I would hope for more from them, but a great many can't even accomplish that.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
Sure, 25k fleet req is nice - but given that has to be devoted to ships and pilots it disappears quickly.
New players now start with Type 1 Strike, Type 1 Scout, Type 2 Gunship, and Type 3 Bomber. At most, they 'need' to buy a Type 2 Scout and Type 1 Gunship, or one of the bombers, depending on their playstyle. Crew may already be unlocked from questing, but they are not all that expensive. You can easily spend less than 5k Fleet Req on the few ships you need and the crew that matter. Of course, one needs to learn which those are to choose them, and that does require some small effort. 20k req goes a long way, these days, if properly spent on worthwhile ship upgrades. After one single game, you can have a competitive ship. After a couple Dailies and a Weekly, you're well on your way... if you learn a bit.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
Calling it a non-issue means you truly forgot what its like to see things from a new player perspective. Most players don't immediately start looking things up before their first time attempting something - its part of learning through experience. The problem is that experience tends to be so negative they give up before enough interest sets in for them to start looking things up.
In addition to the recent 100+ games of pure stock play, I've built up probably a dozen or so alts through solo queue play over the last year. I can't un-learn the knowledge I've gained along the way, but I feel that from a gear perspective and a matchmaking perspective, I have a very good handle on what a new player faces.

When I first started playing, I was blown up plenty. I did not begin as an ace, and was routinely destroyed by the better players. This spurred me to decide "If they can do that, I can learn to do it, too" and so I set about gaining the knowledge and skills to compete. This was at a time when both Evasion and Ion Railgun were far more powerful than their post-nerf states, and thus extremely punishing on new players... and at that time I was flying Strikes and T2S exclusively. I didn't even touch gunships until about 1000+ games into my playing career.

If I join into a PvP game, my expectation is that I will probably get destroyed for a while... but if I spend some effort learning the game and practicing the skills associated with it, I can succeed. So far, that has been the case for me.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
You claim that GSF "needs" people who want to play a "tatically deep arcade space shooter".

I show up, and I don't think of it as tactically deep, or arcade - the upgrade path is too complex to be arcade-like and I don't find it tactically deep when gunship chess or bomber swarm can summarize most of that combat.
I state that to differentiate from people who want GSF to be
  • A space-flight simulator that is concerned with the detailed modeling of realistic systems and behavior.
  • A 'dogfighting' game, which suggests play like Battlefront where it is zooming around in circles with little tactical depth.
I refer to it as 'arcade' in the sense that there is no modeling of real physics and the control schemes of the ships are abstracted to a degree that is not like a simulation. Its pace is fast, and action can be quite frantic, which is also more akin to an 'arcade' experience than a more pensive simulation would be.

The match-to-match vagaries of GSF are not what you should base your assessment of its tactical depth on. Too much of that is determined by the players you are sorted in with. If you play against people who know what they are doing, simple 'spam ___' tactics don't work, and ship compositions and choices must be made on the fly to counter what the enemy is presenting. Component/crew choices made pre-match add to the depth of in-match tactics and so does the group of ships you choose to slot on your bar. You can run five ships each of which excel in a unique situation or are necessary to deal with a particular threat. Compare that to Battlefront, where you have 'the fast ship,' the 'slower ship,' and 'the hero powerup.' In that game, the ordnance choices are nonexistent. There is no depth. Pretty graphics, though.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
We aren't going to get people who appreciate this mode the way you do. We get whoever clicks on that intro mission and maybe people dragged in by their friends.
This is mostly a function of it being a PvP space combat game stuck in a corner of an MMORPG that has no commonality in play experience. People come to SWTOR to play an MMORPG. In a standalone game, you're buying into the experience it presents from the moment you plunk down your money.

Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
Why not meet them in the middle by giving them something strong enough to at least put up a fight? They'd still eventually have to learn the ins and outs of upgrading but wouldn't be so helpless during the learning process.
I don't think it would have any significant effect. I'm not entirely against it, but it also isn't a solution. Veterans in stock ships still decimate non-veterans in geared ships if those people haven't learned the game.

- Despon