I remain deeply suspicious. I just don't see how Sidious could maintain galaxy wide battle meditation without even being in a meditation sphere or actively meditating at all. The only way I see it working is if it is a subtle, constant force which amplifies efficiency, coordination and maintains confidence (rather than boosting morale) - which while not being as powerful as say Bastila's battle meditation of Kaan's does turn the stormtroopers into efficient killing machines, basically droids but a lot smarter. Is this the case? If it is it gives them an advantage or rather removes a Sith advantage as they won't be phased by Sith in battle. But even so, surely Sidious has too be actively in meditation to maintain it? It just seems to fly in the face of everything we know about the Force...

You think that's powerful? what about the fact he literally just relaxed and drank some tea whilst simultaneously draining the life-force of 16 billion people on Byss, they didn't even know what was happening, how about when he mindwiped the entire of Imperial Center so they would forget him parking the Lusankya under Imperial Palace? galaxy wide BM is nothing compared to his other feats.

Considering they are motivated by the will of the most powerful Sith ever, then I disagree, as I personally believe the true Emperor here could turn the Dread Masters to his will, as the only reason they followed Vitiate was his power, considering Sidious is much more powerful, indeed he is in-fact a Dark Side nexus, then he can turn one of Vitiate's most potent weapons and their 'Ascendant Spear' all at once.

 

I think Sidious would be more careful than just all-out attrition based war, instead he would convert the most powerful of Vitiate's subjects to his will and use the Sith Emperor's own subjects to defeat him and then either use them to their full extent or Order 66 them.

You may a very good point. I still disagree that Sidious's influence could resist the overwhelming power of the Dread Masters which could literally shatter the enemies mind with ease. I mean they mastered the Phobis Devices, they are masters of fear. The very fact that Stormtroopers scream when they die shows they are not immune to pain and fear, they are not mindless machines and so can be exploited.

But the Dread Masters are not exactly loyal. Will they be able to sense the power of Sidious from a far? Perhaps, probably not - saying yes is baseless speculation. So I assume at least at first the Dread Masters will be on the Emperor's side. Sidious is going to have to make some sort of personal appearance to get them to join him... but I'm sure he could work something out. Ideas?

You think that's powerful? what about the fact he literally just relaxed and drank some tea whilst simultaneously draining the life-force of 16 billion people on Byss, they didn't even know what was happening, how about when he mindwiped the entire of Imperial Center so they would forget him parking the Lusankya under Imperial Palace? galaxy wide BM is nothing compared to his other feats.

This is why I hate NJO OK, so I suppose we just have to accept that he can do this - even though its rather silly.

You may a very good point. I still disagree that Sidious's influence could resist the overwhelming power of the Dread Masters which could literally shatter the enemies mind with ease. I mean they mastered the Phobis Devices, they are masters of fear. The very fact that Stormtroopers scream when they die shows they are not immune to pain and fear, they are not mindless machines and so can be exploited.

Obviously it's not going to cancel the Dread Masters entirely, but they aren't going to have the Empire running around like Red Shirts.

But the Dread Masters are not exactly loyal. Will they be able to sense the power of Sidious from a far? Perhaps, probably not - saying yes is baseless speculation. So I assume at least at first the Dread Masters will be on the Emperor's side. Sidious is going to have to make some sort of personal appearance to get them to join him... but I'm sure he could work something out. Ideas?

Obviously he isn't going to know about them straight away, but he doesn't need to, so they took out a couple of ships, he IS going to notice a couple of very powerful Sith messing about with his lackeys, once that happens, he'll probably go investigating and laugh maniacally at what they are doing.

This is why I hate NJO OK, so I suppose we just have to accept that he can do this - even though its rather silly.

You have heard of Grand Master Skywalker? ;P

IF the RZ was able to beat the GE, why won't the SE be able to beat 'em? The SE is without a doubt more powerful then the RA. The SE has thousands of Sith, be it acolytes, masters, lords, or darths. Sidious's army, battle med, and special forces didn't save him from Luke Skywalker and the RA.

Just how well are Sidious's forces gonna be able to canonically counter Sith?

The Sith are the big bad guys in Star Wars. They're the most powerful antagonists out there. Vitiate has thousands of them.

Considering they are motivated by the will of the most powerful Sith ever, then I disagree, as I personally believe the true Emperor here could turn the Dread Masters to his will, as the only reason they followed Vitiate was his power, considering Sidious is much more powerful, indeed he is in-fact a Dark Side nexus, then he can turn one of Vitiate's most potent weapons and their 'Ascendant Spear' all at once..

Except Dread Masters aren't simply following Vitiate. They literally being controlled by him. They are his puppets and he is what keeps them in check. Palpatine cannot mind control on this scale and with that magnitude. Vitiate can. Even if Dread Masters do realize that Palpatine > Vitiate in sheer power, it would mean squat cause they are on Vitiate's leash. Sure, Palpatine can mind wipe people to not see a cruiser right in front of their nose but he doesn't have the ability to destroy the will of the Dread Masters. Vitiate can. That's what he does.

I say Dread Masters > battle meditation.

Also, I doubt that Palpatine would be able to simultaneously coordinate all of his troops scattered throughout multiple fronts. Send Ascendant Spear to one battle, Dread Masters to other battle, Emperor's Wrath with a couple of Darths to third and dispatch HK-51s to backstab everything. Not saying that this would mean SE wins easily but it also cancels the "GE > SE by default cause of their superiority in everything but Sith".

IF the RZ was able to beat the GE, why won't the SE be able to beat 'em? The SE is without a doubt more powerful then the RA. The SE has thousands of Sith, be it acolytes, masters, lords, or darths. Sidious's army, battle med, and special forces didn't save him from Luke Skywalker and the RA.

 

Just how well are Sidious's forces gonna be able to canonically counter Sith?

 

The Sith are the big bad guys in Star Wars. They're the most powerful antagonists out there. Vitiate has thousands of them.

Lol, these abbreviations are getting to me - RZ? RA?

Lol, these abbreviations are getting to me - RZ? RA?

Think he meant RA for the 1st, RA= Rebel Alliance. But anyway MasterMe here is what I did for you, I went through all the battles I could get information on and here is what I came up with.

Rebel Victory= 62

Imperial Victory= 54

Do note however, I only went up to the Battle of Endor and some of the battles with the listed outcomes I wasn't so sure to add(infact I may have added some victories to the Rebels due to the obscure outcome). But anyway, yes the Rebels won....the Empire was close behind and infact, the Empire was destroying the RA early on. Even with Luke Skywalker, the Rebels still lost battles here and there.

Take into account sometime during the war, the Rebels got access to Mon Calamari tech(amongst other things) so by that time the Rebels weren't a rag-tag fighting force, but an organized one. Not to mention they had Imperial defectors, so they gained quite a bit of knowledge and tactics aswell as any secrets.

So them losing(up to that point anyway, didn't touch the after war), wasn't completely ridiculous as by that time the RA was a strong organization.

So yes the GE can defeat the SE, with all the resources and since the Alliance never existed in this scenario. Then that means, the GE can perfect their Dark Trooper program and create many of them unlike what they made. Their resources as said, gives them a big advantage.

dread masters.

Lets not forget about them.

One thing I will throw out there that I think has been overlooked: loyalty.

Everyone speaks of the Sith Empire's army of Sith as if it is only an advantage. But one of the big problems you see with the Sith Empire throughout the SWTOR story lines is the constant infighting among the Sith. This is, after all, why the Sith eventually went to the Rule of Two. Vitiate's best Sith are looking for any sign of weakness to turn on him and take his power for their own. Not to mention how often they turn on each other. They are willing to sacrifice the good of the Empire for their own personal gain.

Sidious does not have this problem. His troops are unquestionably loyal.

Alot of you are under the impression that the Dread Masters' mastery of fear powers are a big turning point in this battle. They aren't. Sure their powers would be able to defeat any normal Battle Meditation, but this is Darth Sidious we are talking about. Maybe they will be able to do some damage, but they must also contend with Sidious' dominating will. During the Battle of Endor Sidious' will, combined with Admiral Declann's Battle Meditation, kept the fleet intact. But once Sidious was defeated, the fleet scattered. Not even Declann's Battle Meditation could keep them together. It's not just Sidious' personal Battle Meditation that the Dread Masters have to deal with, they have to overcome Sidious' willpower.

Can it be done? Can the Dread Masters overcome the will of Darth Sidious, the will that defied death itself?

Alot of you are under the impression that the Dread Masters' mastery of fear powers are a big turning point in this battle. They aren't. Sure their powers would be able to defeat any normal Battle Meditation, but this is Darth Sidious we are talking about. Maybe they will be able to do some damage, but they must also contend with Sidious' dominating will. During the Battle of Endor Sidious' will, combined with Admiral Declann's Battle Meditation, kept the fleet intact. But once Sidious was defeated, the fleet scattered. Not even Declann's Battle Meditation could keep them together. It's not just Sidious' personal Battle Meditation that the Dread Masters have to deal with, they have to overcome Sidious' willpower.

 

Can it be done? Can the Dread Masters overcome the will of Darth Sidious, the will that defied death itself?

Probably not, given that the Dread Masters while they mastered Battle Meditation it took all of them to inflict terror on their enemies. It took ALL of them together to do this, to add they don't really seem to have any feats from what we see of them.

In response to the Dread Masters turning argument, the idea that Sith are naturally drawn to the strongest leader becomes murky at the highest levels. It is common for weaker Sith with greater ambitions or who fear another Sith's power to side with the rival in order to ensure their own power isn't stripped from them thus several weak Sith challenge the strong Sith. (a reason for the Rule of Two if I'm not mistaken) The Dread Masters would stay with the SE because they'd rather have the devil they know. Between Vitiate's control over the Dread Masters and their own natural Sith tendencies, they will most certainly never turn.

As for Sidious's galactic mind control, just no. He was powerful but there is a basic difference. This is a situation of concentrated and short term vs. dispersed and long term. Assuming he could project himself across the galaxy, his influence would greatly diminish with each planet it covered. Also, you'd think if Sidious had all that power, that Imperials wouldn't have defected to the Rebellion?

Oh, and I'd like to see your source for the Sidious's galactic Battle Meditation. I know posts generally carry tone poorly so I'm asking more out of curiosity. I'm willing to relent if you find a cannon source that says this definitively.

One thing I will throw out there that I think has been overlooked: loyalty.

 

Everyone speaks of the Sith Empire's army of Sith as if it is only an advantage. But one of the big problems you see with the Sith Empire throughout the SWTOR story lines is the constant infighting among the Sith. This is, after all, why the Sith eventually went to the Rule of Two. Vitiate's best Sith are looking for any sign of weakness to turn on him and take his power for their own. Not to mention how often they turn on each other. They are willing to sacrifice the good of the Empire for their own personal gain.

 

Sidious does not have this problem. His troops are unquestionably loyal.

Palpatine's troops are loyal because they are:

a) clones that have obedience programmed

b) ranking officers that have no reason to try and turn on him

c) braindead dark troopers

Also, SE's Sith do suffer from infighting but only as long as Emperor is absent. You think Jadus would start with his shenanigans if he knew that Emperor is comfy in Dromund Kaas, keeping an eye on everything? Don't forget that entire Empire sees him as their savior and worships him as god. Once SE sees him personally command the campaign, they wouldn't even think to turn on anyone, let alone say it out loud or actually try. Sith might try to defect to Palpatine if they see SE losing ground but we're assuming that both Palpatine and Vitiate have their forces at their disposal so we shouldn't even consider loyalty.

We should consider morale.

GE's morale is attributed to Palpatine's battle meditation / programmed obedience / actual faith in their leader. SE's morale is seeing scores of Sith as well as Emperor himself in charge. And that is a significant difference. GE sees their their leader as a leader. SE sees their leader as a god and savior. Which side is is more likely to fight at their highest?

Alot of you are under the impression that the Dread Masters' mastery of fear powers are a big turning point in this battle.

I dont, think that, i just say dont forget them.

Also other thing i like to mention, the thing that vitiate did on Nathema, and what Palpatine did on biss isnt the same thing.

One thing that bugs me to no end in the star wars universe its this sort of thing, The force originaly was a energy field that some people naturaly had the ability to manipulate, or comune with, now there is rituals an incantations what a hell?! when this become harry potter. I can understand ritual at a certain point though.

I dont, think that, i just say dont forget them.

Also other thing i like to mention, the thing that vitiate did on Nathema, and what Palpatine did on biss isnt the same thing.

 

One thing that bugs me to no end in the star wars universe its this sort of thing, The force originaly was a energy field that some people naturaly had the ability to manipulate, or comune with, now there is rituals an incantations what a hell?! when this become harry potter. I can understand ritual at a certain point though.

 

In the sith warrior story when you are going to free the entity "kreia" there is an encatation for it? lol in what language?! its just so...mmmaaah basic cartoony it put me off to no end, same thing with nightsisters, now they can make voodoo....

Star Wars > Harry Potter

They were doing things with The Force before even Harry Potter came out(the 1st book) so to say its Harry Potter...is no.

But again here, there is no mention of any actual limitations to using The Force(aside from the user being unable to sustain the ability/keep it from killing ones self). So its not really ridiculous or crazy at all, I don't see why some just find it hard to believe or crazy.

Im not saying they were copying harry potter, but there is many situations its exactly like that. harry potter there is magic, in star wars there is the force, wich wasnt exactly magic per sé at least in the begining.

And oh plz Rituals encantations predate Both star wars, or harry potter obviously, that wasnt exactly my point though.

But again here, there is no mention of any actual limitations to using The Force(aside from the user being unable to sustain the ability/keep it from killing ones self).

Comon the movies one thing the expanded universe a thing completely diferent. Might as well put superman in there, flying arround a planet to go back in time. Im not against it i think one always wins if remains true to it self. star wars isnt always true to it self though.

Im not saying they were copying harry potter, but there is many situations its exactly like that. harry potter there is magic, in star wars there is the force, wich wasnt exactly magic per sé at least in the begining.

And oh plz Rituals encantations predate Both star wars, or harry potter obviously, that wasnt exactly my point though.

Well obviously Rituals do, was just merely pointing it out but I get your point.

Palpatine's troops are loyal because they are:

 

a) clones that have obedience programmed

b) ranking officers that have no reason to try and turn on him

c) braindead dark troopers

 

Also, SE's Sith do suffer from infighting but only as long as Emperor is absent. You think Jadus would start with his shenanigans if he knew that Emperor is comfy in Dromund Kaas, keeping an eye on everything? Don't forget that entire Empire sees him as their savior and worships him as god. Once SE sees him personally command the campaign, they wouldn't even think to turn on anyone, let alone say it out loud or actually try. Sith might try to defect to Palpatine if they see SE losing ground but we're assuming that both Palpatine and Vitiate have their forces at their disposal so we shouldn't even consider loyalty.

 

We should consider morale.

 

GE's morale is attributed to Palpatine's battle meditation / programmed obedience / actual faith in their leader. SE's morale is seeing scores of Sith as well as Emperor himself in charge. And that is a significant difference. GE sees their their leader as a leader. SE sees their leader as a god and savior. Which side is is more likely to fight at their highest?

Sith naturally lack loyalty. Granted, Vitiate was able to keep more order when he was actually around, but the infighting is ever-present among the Sith. It isn't just that they would turn on Vitiate at the first sign of weakness, although that is part of it. It is also that they turn on each other. This is the very nature of the Sith. All the little battles at every level among the Sith are a constant drag on their efficiency. The Inquisitor storyline is an excellent example of this.

Sidious has a military command structure. Vitiate has backstabbers at every level conspiring against each other. They only follow orders as long as it serves their own best interest.

One other thing I haven't seen much mention of is Sidious' farsight.

I also have to believe he would be quite effective in turning some of Vitiate's top Sith to his cause. He shows in the prequels his ability to manipulate. Confronted by a Sith who is obviously more powerful than their own Emperor (we are talking about the canon most powerful Sith ever), I see many Sith joining him.

Sith naturally lack loyalty. Granted, Vitiate was able to keep more order when he was actually around, but the infighting is ever-present among the Sith. It isn't just that they would turn on Vitiate at the first sign of weakness, although that is part of it. It is also that they turn on each other. This is the very nature of the Sith. All the little battles at every level among the Sith are a constant drag on their efficiency. The Inquisitor storyline is an excellent example of this.

You spend the entire class story battling and taking out other Sith, not doing anything to battle the Republic.

 

 

Sidious has a military command structure. Vitiate has backstabbers at every level conspiring against each other. They only follow orders as long as it serves their own best interest.

 

One other thing I haven't seen much mention of is Sidious' farsight.

 

I also have to believe he would be quite effective in turning some of Vitiate's top Sith to his cause. He shows in the prequels his ability to manipulate. Confronted by a Sith who is obviously more powerful than their own Emperor (we are talking about the canon most powerful Sith ever), I see many Sith joining him.

We can't consider the scenario of defection and infighting because we would have to create a subthread to discuss it and the entire Kaggath would come down to whether Sith turn on Vitiate or not. We have to assume that their forces are loyal and defection isn't possible unless someone goes Rambo and confronts Vitiate personally in which case, unless it's Palpatine himself, Vitiate mind controls such an individual to the point of him/her becoming his personal *****. Hell, what's to stop Vitiate from taking a shuttle that boards the Executor and mindwiping everyone onboard thus taking control of the entire ship?

So other than Vitiate's established will-dominating ability, no straight-up defection or infighting.

Also, it's true that Sith lack loyalty but it's not your usual battle. Emperor says something, it's the law. Something like Corellia in SWTOR where Baras and Thanaton were using military resources for their own purposes would never occur if Vitiate were in control of the entire war effort.

We can't consider the scenario of defection and infighting because we would have to create a subthread to discuss it and the entire Kaggath would come down to whether Sith turn on Vitiate or not. We have to assume that their forces are loyal and defection isn't possible unless someone goes Rambo and confronts Vitiate personally in which case, unless it's Palpatine himself, Vitiate mind controls such an individual to the point of him/her becoming his personal *****.

 

Other than that, no straight-up defection or infighting.

Lolwut? We can't consider defection? Since when? We have in other Kaggath threads. The threat that at least some of Vitiate's Sith will turn against him must absolutely be considered. I'm not suggesting the entirety of Sith forces will join Sidious, but it is certainly reasonable to assume that some of the more powerful Sith of the TOR era would sense Palpatine's power and decide to ally themselves with him, especially when you factor in that Sidious is extremely skilled at such manipulations. At the very least, without Vader at his side, Sidious is going to take an apprentice, likely someone very close to Vitiate who will turn on him at the exact right moment.

Lolwut? We can't consider defection? Since when? We have in other Kaggath threads. The threat that at least some of Vitiate's Sith will turn against him must absolutely be considered. I'm not suggesting the entirety of Sith forces will join Sidious, but it is certainly reasonable to assume that some of the more powerful Sith of the TOR era would sense Palpatine's power and decide to ally themselves with him, especially when you factor in that Sidious is extremely skilled at such manipulations.

Ok, in that case, if things like Palpatine draining the entire planet in his leisure is also possible, then he wins Kaggath by default. All he has to do is go on live TV showing how he effortlessly, without the need of any setup, straight up destroys the entire life on whatever planet and everyone joins him. Case closed.

I don't think it is as simple as that either. It's not a talent show or a strongman competition. Sith base their loyalties on more than just the sheer power of their master. As someone previously mentioned, allying yourself with a weaker Emperor might be advantageous as it would be easier to supplant him yourself. I would imagine you would see a split in Sith forces.

I'm also not sure how the Rule of Two might come into play here for Sidious. He generally seems to follow it, although the rule has been bent to hell by the stupid cartoons. If he is strictly going to follow the Rule of Two and we are to assume Vader is out of the equation, he will take one apprentice and only one. Or perhaps he takes what allies he can for the purposes of the Kaggath and then lets them kill each other off later for the right to call themselves his apprentice.